Hit dice mechanic

Ok, so I know I'm going to be easily a target for alot of DM's (myself included, if that makes sense) as well as alot of players saying what I interpret as being very outbalanced, and OP, however, hear me out fully first:

so, we just got back from a playtest starting at 1st level.  I know this edition is a bit of a throwback to DnD/ADnD/ADnD2nd in how things are scaled and such, but we had an issue with the actual wording of "hit dice" per level and it's mechanics in each of the different classes vs. how many "hit dice" your character has for your hit points.  I'll point out, that I just spent time reading  Hit Points, Our old Friend .

So, it seems that, the mechanic of "hit dice" per level, as pointed out in the article is meant to "..make the cleric as optional for a group as a fighter, wizard, or rogue" as well as "..make a game where one DM and one player can play through an adventure without undue need for house rules or changes to the core system" and "..if half the group misses a session, the DM can still run something without having to change the basic rules for the campaign".  This says to me (and apparently to the rest of my group), that the very specific wording of "1dXX hit dice per level" means, at level one, you roll a dXX and that's how many hit dice you have. 
With that said, as example, a level one ranger has 1d10 hit dice per level.  While creating his character, he rolls a d10, his result is 6, therefore, he has 6 hit dice to use for "short rest" healing along a campaign.  This "hit dice" is different, if what I read is the "intended result" of it's mechanic, is not to say that specific ranger is a 6 hit dice creature, but rather, he has 6 rolls of a d10 to recover hit points before he MUST, stress that word MUST, take a long rest to recover hit points.
The reason for understanding it this way, (continue to bear with me), is to help stop a group of companions from taking a "long rest" in a dungeon after only 1 or 2  combats because their cleric is out of heals, or there are no potions of healing in the party, or the rogue took some extra dmg that was unexpected.  Who here also thinks that taking an extended rest in a dungeon is EVER a good idea, yet parties abuse the hell out of that all the time (or at least in days of old 4ed, etc..).  I've seen, and been part of, many parties that abused the hell out of this "long rest" mechanic in editions past (more than just 4ed.)
What this does, is take the weight off, a single, cleric's shoulders in a group OUTSIDE OF COMBAT.  Char's can use their "hit dice" pool to heal, or at least, recover SOME of their hit points back.  Think about it, you take an hour, to bandage up your wounds from that spear sticking you in the leg.  Wrap it, get it to stop bleeding, take some aspirin, and you should be good to go.
This also, does not diminish, or minimalize, a cleric's role in a party.  They, or one who has a heal spell, are still the only way, short of a potion of healing/etc.., to gain hit points during combat.
Back to the ranger;  after the first combat in a dungeon, he takes 4 points of damage because the fighter sucked up most of the attention, and the ranger is a little hurt, but he knows they have quite a way to travel into the dungeon before coming upon the "final boss" so to speak.  Does he want to expend one of his "hit dice" to recover those 4 hit points, or chance it and continue on?  As well, does the rest of the party want to stop for an hour just for him to recover those 4 hit points or chance it and hope the cleric has a heal for him later on in combat, if he needs it?  We all know there is always a chance of wandering monsters...
Now, let's look at this from a higher-lvl point of view;  you're a level 10 ranger, you have rolled your "hit dice" mechanic dice each level to 10, and you have 54 "hit dice".  (it sounds terrible, but hear me out...)  you also have, let's say, 72 hit points.  during your first encounter into a dungeon, you get smashed by a stone giant a few times and get battered up.  You go down to 31 hit points.  you need some healing after this encounter.  Your cleric used a few heals to keep the fighter alive during the battle, so you don't want to waste more of the cleric's heals while OUTSIDE of combat, so you take an hour to put some ointment on the bruises.  You spend 5 of your "hit dice" pool to gain some hit points back, and recover 29 points.  Your new total is 60, out of 72. 
Now, mind you, you're only "ONE" encounter into a dungeon that you KNOW will have lots more surprises for you before reaching your goal.  Your pool of "hit dice" is down to 49.  How many more encounters can you take before you have to take a "long rest"?  if you averaged each "hit dice" roll of 5, and you needed 5 per combat, you can only take about 9-10 more encounters before a 'long rest' is needed.  Is that ENOUGH to get to your goal, or do you try to play a bit smarter and conserve some of those hit dice?  Do you make your cleric save a heal or 2 for you in combat to help keep you standing, or save them for the fighter/guardian?  How many dungeons, of a lvl 10 campaign, have more than 10 encounters before the goal? (in my opinion/experience, plenty)
This seems to be, to me, where this mechanic is going.  Having a cleric is GREAT.  you have in-combat heals to withstand a bigger beating.  Yet, you are not totally reliant on them to be the ONLY means of healing outside of combat.  Healing kit's only, really, save the dying.  This seems to satisfy the desired effect of reducing "..the party's reliance on healing magic" without eliminating, minimizing, or diminishing the cleric's role.
Think about this:
In our current draft (the one you'll be able to playtest beginning on 5/24), Hit Dice represent your character's ability to recover from injury without the use of magic. Think back to the explanation of hit points above. When a character loses hit points, he or she can recover them through rest. Your character can overcome many cuts and bruises by catching his or her breath, but there is a limit to the amount of punishment your character can overcome.
This says to me that, being an adventurer/hero, we're able to do more, jump higher, live longer, and withstand more punishment, than your ordinary commoner.  After all, if we weren't exceptional characters, why on earth would we want to go out adventuring?  (and, isn't an average commoner's statistics roughly a 9... how many stats on your sheet are higher than average?)

Does this actually take away from the threat of death?  Does this remove the danger of dying during combat?  Can this actually help remove a parties reliance on magic for the ONLY means of healing?  Is it overpowered, or can you see it being balanced if used correctly?  Would this ALSO help stop parties from taking "long rests" inside a dungeon?
For me, an 8-hour, uninterrupted rest period inside a dungeon seems to be more removed from reality, than the time spent to bandage yourself up before the next encounter.
Or maybe others have read this mechanic as I have, and are in complete agreement, however, searching google for this has sported many more opinions opposed to this interpretation, than I expected.

As another note, I do remember reading in the post "It's important to note that Hit Dice come into play to represent mundane healing. Potions and spells restore hit points and ignore Hit Dice. If a character relies on natural healing, it takes quite a while to recover." as well...

"Over time, if your character takes too many injuries, they start to add up. Just as several, low-damage hits eventually drive a character to half hit points and then to zero, so too do they affect your character's ability to recover from damage."
Not that there's anything wrong with wanting more healing, or shorter short rests, or more fights per day...   But you are reading the current rules wrong.  

Just to clarify...

A level 1 ranger has 1 hit dice.  And thus can gain 1d10 hit point.
A level 10 ranger has 10 hit dice.  And thus can gain 10d10 hit points.
On average, that will let you heal ~80% of your maximum HP in a day.

Also, your only supposed to fight 2 hard encounters (stone giants for a level 10 part) per day.



But yes.  If you fight 5x the monsters as expected, you should be getting 5x the hit dice.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Not that there's anything wrong with wanting more healing, or shorter short rests, or more fights per day...   But you are reading the current rules wrong.  

Just to clarify...

A level 1 ranger has 1 hit dice.  And thus can gain 1d10 hit point.
A level 10 ranger has 10 hit dice.  And thus can gain 10d10 hit points.
On average, that will let you heal ~80% of your maximum HP in a day.

Also, your only supposed to fight 2 hard encounters (stone giants for a level 10 part) per day.



But yes.  If you fight 5x the monsters as expected, you should be getting 5x the hit dice.

In my opinion, this has nothing to do with number of 'hard' encounters, but rather 'all' encounters.  Tell me that i'm wrong about the amount of parties who go into a dungeon and abuse a long rest.  Is it actually ever safe to take a long rest in a dungeon?

Tell me, if your understanding of the rule is true, that the purpose of a cleric is anything else BUT "healing the meatshield"?  Why would a cleric do ANYTHING else but heal the fighter, and if ANY, and i mean any, other class takes damage "..sorry, you should have spent almost ALL of your time hiding.  my heals are for the tank only" is the response?

How does this amount of non-combat healing help make a cleric as "..optional as a fighter, rogue, or wizard"?

When does a cleric get to do anything BUT heal the fighter with your view on this rule?  An average encounter is going to do some dmg to another class unless they spend all of their time hiding (very, very similiarly to 4ed, which was crap), poke head out, fire at range or stand exactly adjacent to the fighter and pray he has an ability to stop dmg from coming your way every time, and then go back to hiding.

This type of combat is not very fun.  who wants to spend their entire time hiding?  I don't ever remember doing anything like that playing any version of DnD pre-3.0 , and I played alot of wizards and rogues and non-tank-y classes.

My view is not meant to be for "power-gaming".  I cannot actually stand that type of gaming, and I like some of the throwbacks to people getting picked off alot easier than 3/4 ed.  mages are weak, and should be able to be injured very easily.

I just don't see how this small amount of OUT OF COMBAT healing helps the cleric in almost any way/shape/form, short of a very minimal amount of extra healing.  Cleric's still have their role, but, every party is still totally required to have a cleric, if what you say is the logic.  And even then, their shoulders have more weight than should be expected.
Your feedback and opinion are certainly welcome, so don't think i'm insluting you, calling you a power gamer, or anything else.  Heck, i even agree with you.   Parties are too dependand on magical healing.



I'm just stating how the rules currently are.  Mainly, your expected to fight alot less creatures per day.


Here are the quotes from the current packet.
As a rule of thumb, you can figure that the characters will probably get through four average encounters, six or seven easy encounters, or two tough encounters before they have to take a long rest.

Level 10 has 1700 XP as a tough encounter.  Stone Giants are 1800 XP.

= 2 stone giants per day.

And for hit dice.
Player characters have 1 Hit Die per level.

A level 10 ranger will have 10d10 hit dice.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Mellored is right (and he usually is). "Character Creation page 3, fourth paraghraph under 7. Fill in Numbers, second sentence: "A character gets one hit die per level."

Mind you, Kthoris, I like your interpretation better because it reduces in severity one of the biggest issues I have with Next, but no variation on the current HP/HD system is going to be good enough for me to actually play until it has rules for healing surges, Second Wind, and Warlords.
 but no variation on the current HP/HD system is going to be good enough for me to actually play until it has rules for healing surges, Second Wind, and Warlords.



Guess you'll be sticking with 4E, then.

Guess you'll be sticking with 4E, then.



That's the plan, unless we start seeing some 4e-style support in Next, or I find a group for IK Mk. II (which, like 4e, takes a wargamer's mindset into RPG rules design).
Personally, I NEVER liked 4ed.  I also want to apologize to mellored.... I didn't mean for it to sound like I was being defensive or that you were attacking or acusing.... etc..

Now, I understand WHY the rule is the way it is, if what you, and apparently many others, say it is.  I just don't see that as being in line with what their post about making cleric's "optional".  1 extra hit die of hp at 1st lvl is not going to help "optionalize" (if that's a word) a cleric.  nor, at 10th lvl, is 10 extra hit die of hp going to help.  I am going to try to stick with it the way it is, but i just haven't seen how it can help with their 'intent', nor, can I see how it could "overpower" a group, nor how it could make it more "4ed"-like.... though, I can see WHY people would think that, because of the BS surges and crap.  I just wanted to help avoid any ridiculous "long rest" in a dungeon, or stop people from using it to advantage.  Also, the need for cleric's to be the only means of healing, short of the "potential" hit points you could get outside of combat... pitance that it is.
but, that's just my 2c worth.

Anyone else care to join this with an opinion..??

(everyone's feedback has been valued already too)
Well, they do have "more modules" and "more healing options"

They've expressed interest in having multiple healing options presented in the rules, we've only seen one. Those options they hope for are:

No/slow healing akin to older editions
Long rest = full heal
Current rules
Surges
Full HP after every encounter

Writing all of these different options would take them less than a day, so I don't really see why they wouldn't put more options in.
Personally, I NEVER liked 4ed.

The healing rules you came up with yourself are very 4e-ish.  With the difference between enounter HP, and daily HP.

Anyone else care to join this with an opinion..??

Well i still agree that clerics are still too needed.  But rather then buffing everyone elses healing, i would just nerf the clerics healing.

Either way, they shouldn't be able to heal more then 100% of a fighter's daily HP, assuming all the spells went to healing.

Useful?  Yes.
Good to have around?  Yes.
Could you just take another fighter instead?  Yes.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Here's what I'd like to see: an optional rules module for lethal wounds. It'd be great to see a distinction between the kind of damage that hit dice are meant to fix (cuts and bruises, having your bell rung, morale loss) and the kind of damage that really requires magic to avoid months of bed rest or even an early retirement (impalement, incineration, poisoning, broken limbs). This would make a lot of the non magical healing in the game feel a lot more reasonable and less frustrating.

More than trying to secure part of a dungeon to sleep in (which based on a lot of things: how occupied the dungeon is, how defensible the hole-up spot is, guard watches, original function of the dungeon--a pretty good case could actually be made that something like that is pretty feasible) my big "abuse" concern are folks who have taken ghastly damage, breath weapon blasts, maulings, broken bleeding wound from crushing bear traps just handwaving them away with a nice nap and waking up good as new. I hate that so much.

Honestly I like the idea that healing potions be made crazy cheap and effective--like 5-10 gold a pop and curing a hefty chunk of damage--like 3d6 or so. They stay useful for a good long time, give people a cheap option instead of a heal-bot cleric and you never have to worry about the logic of a sucking chest wound just healing up overnight.

Mechanically I'd like to see lethal damage cause a Con save or inflict a serious condition on the PC--say slowed for a broken leg, weakened for a dislocated shoulder, maybe vulnerability or ongoing damage from bad burns or bleeding. I really liked the 4e concept of being "bloodied"--that a certain percentage of hitpoints is daring do, that you tumble around and take some knocks but are winded and basically fine (effectively subdual damage) but then all of a sudden you get a spear to the chest, or get your arm sucked into a bunch of flesh chewing gears up to your shoulder, or get caught on fire by a flask of alchemist's fire and the damage becomes real and serious. It has effects. It makes you a liability. You can't just sleep it off.

That said I wouldn't inflict this kind of grittiness of play on every group, but I'd really like it to exist for everyone who's wanting that style of play. Certainly for one, our group would love it.
Now with 100% more Vorthos!
Here's what I'd like to see: an optional rules module for lethal wounds. It'd be great to see a distinction between the kind of damage that hit dice are meant to fix (cuts and bruises, having your bell rung, morale loss) and the kind of damage that really requires magic to avoid months of bed rest or even an early retirement (impalement, incineration, poisoning, broken limbs). This would make a lot of the non magical healing in the game feel a lot more reasonable and less frustrating. More than trying to secure part of a dungeon to sleep in (which based on a lot of things: how occupied the dungeon is, how defensible the hole-up spot is, guard watches, original function of the dungeon--a pretty good case could actually be made that something like that is pretty feasible) my big "abuse" concern are folks who have taken ghastly damage, breath weapon blasts, maulings, broken bleeding wound from crushing bear traps just handwaving them away with a nice nap and waking up good as new. I hate that so much.

Meh...

I find magic potions to be just as frusterating, and clerics litterally handwave the wounds away.


IMO:  Clerics and potions should simply boost the natural healing proccess.  Not replace it.

i.e.
Cure Wounds/Potion of Healing:  You double the hit points you gain durring your next short rest.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Is THAT what you guys are talking about wanting? Getting rid of magical healing? Reducing it to an off camera abstraction? Blarg! No, sorry guys I'm very much in the opposite camp. I can buy getting crushed by falling rocks and impaled by spear traps if at the end I can see miraculous healing via potions or spells snap the bones back into place. The idea that anyone can heal this kind of damage by taking a little breather just kills it. Everything just collapses into video gamey Mortal Kombat weirdness. Damage needs to matter for the game to feel sufficiently real and to get me to really invest in what's going on. Boingy superhero damage that should leave people crippled or dead but don't--because HEROES! just totally removes any interest I have in whatever Mary Sue ridden story is going on.
Now with 100% more Vorthos!
What about an optional module that makes half of a PC's HP "meat" (just called HP) and half Temporary HP (call it morale, or armor, or stamina, or whatever). Only magical healing (including potions) can heal real HP, but Temp HP can be restored by resting, hit dice, and a warlord yelling at you. You could then have real HP increase at a much lower rate (like 1 or 2 per level) so the bulk of a character's "health" is temp HP.

That way, an adventurer can still keep going on stamina if there's no Cleric around, but eventually that damage is going to add up, and there's no way to fix it except visiting the church, or the hospital. "Flesh" HP would remain low enough so that a few solid stabs or falling into a pit of spikes was still deadly, but the Temp HP would be a narrative buffer to keep you alive. The characters dodge, or roll with the blow, block it or absorb the damage, etc., but eventually a few hits get through their defenses and they're on the ground bleeding.
I've always been a fan that it is your Constitution that reflects how much physical damage your body can take.  So once you hit zero hit points, a PC, creature or what ever starts to take serious physical damage or the second die of damage from a crit goes straight to your Constitution points.  At half Constitution you go unconscious.  Hit points encompasses everything else; very minor wounds, luck, armor, training, etc.  I've even allowed the mending spell to heal hit points as an armor repair option for a small number of hit points.  A fighter has more hit points primarily due to better armor and training.  The higher level, the more training and experience the fighter will have to survive a fight.  A seasoned boxer is still knocked out as easily as anyone else due to a severe blow to the head but has the training to avoid a knock out punch compared to a boxer with no training off the streets.   

I'm not suggesting any kind of changes and I'm sure this is nothing new but I use this system to make sense in my little world how healing and damage work.  A really buff mage could take the same amount of damage as a really buff fighter at the same Constitution but has less hit points in a fight.  lol

Duane    
Eh, the whole 'do it so they wont take a rest'

This is another 'rests leave a break the stoooory!' thread?

It's like some phobic reaction - spiders, heights, or that even one minute is spent describing that the characters camp for the night uninterupted. All a 'Hnghhhh!' thing.

What's up with that? Is it that you've decided that the heroes really, really want to rescue the princess (or whatever Mcguffin) - but the fact that they decide to nap kinda screws up your notion they really want to save the princess?

"In the game there is magic" - Orethalion

 

Only got words in my copy.

Eh, the whole 'do it so they wont take a rest'

This is another 'rests leave a break the stoooory!' thread?

It's like some phobic reaction - spiders, heights, or that even one minute is spent describing that the characters camp for the night uninterupted. All a 'Hnghhhh!' thing.

What's up with that? Is it that you've decided that the heroes really, really want to rescue the princess (or whatever Mcguffin) - but the fact that they decide to nap kinda screws up your notion they really want to save the princess?



No the its 'casters break the stoooory!' thread.

As a DM who wants to present a reasonable challenge, being able to narrow the gap between magic healing and non-magic healing makes it easier to set a challenge regardless of fully rest cleric or not.  I would prefer to flatten the difference between natural healing and spell base healing. I just can't accept a diablo-esque potion chuck as a way to resolve the issue.

Big Model: Creative Agenda
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th Edition
Reality Refracted: Social Contracts

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Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke
Eh, the whole 'do it so they wont take a rest'

This is another 'rests leave a break the stoooory!' thread?

It's like some phobic reaction - spiders, heights, or that even one minute is spent describing that the characters camp for the night uninterupted. All a 'Hnghhhh!' thing.

What's up with that? Is it that you've decided that the heroes really, really want to rescue the princess (or whatever Mcguffin) - but the fact that they decide to nap kinda screws up your notion they really want to save the princess?



No the its 'casters break the stoooory!' thread.

As a DM who wants to present a reasonable challenge, being able to narrow the gap between magic healing and non-magic healing makes it easier to set a challenge regardless of fully rest cleric or not.  I would prefer to flatten the difference between natural healing and spell base healing. I just can't accept a diablo-esque potion chuck as a way to resolve the issue.



Trying to stop people from having rests is not in any way a direct method of dealing with the problem you are having. I don't think it's part of the OP.

But looking at it anyway, as it is now, player choices (like whether they rest, whether they hold onto a powerful spell or use it) can determine how close to singular or party death a latter encounter will be.

Do you want player choices to influence how strong a latter challenge is?

Or do you want full control over how reasonable a challenge is?

"In the game there is magic" - Orethalion

 

Only got words in my copy.

Eh, the whole 'do it so they wont take a rest'

This is another 'rests leave a break the stoooory!' thread?

It's like some phobic reaction - spiders, heights, or that even one minute is spent describing that the characters camp for the night uninterupted. All a 'Hnghhhh!' thing.

What's up with that? Is it that you've decided that the heroes really, really want to rescue the princess (or whatever Mcguffin) - but the fact that they decide to nap kinda screws up your notion they really want to save the princess?



No the its 'casters break the stoooory!' thread.

As a DM who wants to present a reasonable challenge, being able to narrow the gap between magic healing and non-magic healing makes it easier to set a challenge regardless of fully rest cleric or not.  I would prefer to flatten the difference between natural healing and spell base healing. I just can't accept a diablo-esque potion chuck as a way to resolve the issue.



Trying to stop people from having rests is not in any way a direct method of dealing with the problem you are having. I don't think it's part of the OP.

But looking at it anyway, as it is now, player choices (like whether they rest, whether they hold onto a powerful spell or use it) can determine how close to singular or party death a latter encounter will be.

Do you want player choices to influence how strong a latter challenge is?

Or do you want full control over how reasonable a challenge is?


I'm not suggesting denying rest as an option. I suggesting strengthening none spell healing or reducing the strength of magic healing so that the impact isn't as severe between when you have magic healing and when you don't.

I want player decisions at the table to influence the challenge. I don't want the parties choices to run with or without a healer to greatly influence a challenge.

Big Model: Creative Agenda
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th Edition
Reality Refracted: Social Contracts

My blog of random stuff 

Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke