[Collaboration] Turbo-Jund

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So, a couple of us posters from the RDW thread in the TC decided to branch out our decks a little bit. tehbeast and I were already splashing black, mostly for Falkenrath Aristocrat and Spike Jester. Others were splashing green, primarily for cards like Flinthoof Boars and Ghor-Clan Rampager. Then we basically became greedy, and decided to do both.

Advantages of playing what is basically Jund Deck Wins:

Over Gruul:
The deck is less draw dependant. You don't play out as a deck that dumps your hand by turn 2 - you play hefty singular threats that have to be answered every time, or you win. This gives you more freedom to make good plays as a pilot, and gives you much better topdecks.

Over Rakdos:
More haste, basically. Cards like Boros Reckoner are usually relegated to the board here, not because the card isn't good, but because barring certain MU's, playing a hasty Flinthoof Boars can just wreck your opponent's life total. 1-drops aside, every threat in the deck can deal damage the turn you draw them (in the case of Rampager by virtue of Bloodrush). That makes the deck faster and more potent, especially against control matchups.

Over Naya:
A less greedy manabase. Depending on build, most Naya decks have to play 8-10 buddylands, which give them all-buddy openers where everything comes into play tapped. This is because they're generally a base-green deck that has to stretch their manabase for Reckoners. We're a base-red deck, and we don't have the same problem; thus, we can get away with running 4-6 buddylands. This means added consistency, but no 4/4 3-drops for Domri Rade to abuse.

Now, for some decklists (Note: Not updated for M14):





tehbeast's matchup analysis

Matchups-
Control: Favorable assuming familiarity with piloting aggro
Aggro: A bye, assuming you know how to board
Midrange: Might be a bit tougher, honestly. I recommend cutting your opponent into bad hands.


I'll give a more detailed analysis of specific card choices if it turns out to be necessary.

[Edit]: Here it is:

Post-M14 card choices
Lands:
Shocks, buddylands: Your bread-and-butter mana fixing. I reccomend staying heavily in a base colour and splash the two other colours to reduce the amount of buddylands you need to run.

Kessig Wolf Run: A solid 1-of inclusion. You never want to see number two, but the adventurous can include a second copy. Due to colour constraints, this works better in base red or -green. Also, because it only produces colourless mana, it encourages you to up your land count a bit (23-24 is optimal, in my opinion), giving you a good ability while helping you reach the mana for your 4-drops, while not compromising your coloured mana.

Mutavault: Like Wolf-Run, except you're not as sad to see a second copy. Also, it works in lists of all base-colours. Do note the anti-synergy with cards like Boros Reckoner and Geralf's Messenger. Still a great inclusion.

1-drops:
Vexing Devil: Just a really, really good 1-drop, that keeps being relevant waay into the game. Generally, you want each of your creatures to do at least 4 damage before being removed, so while the card disadvantage can hurt, you're still coming out on top. Most importantly, it dodges commonly played removal spells such as Selesnya Charm, Pillar of Flame and Turn // Burn (Burn).

Rakdos Cackler: A solid 1-drop. It's reliable, it hits hard, and it dodges Doom Blade. Unfortunately, the last part is rarely relevant because it loses relevancy somewhat quickly and it dies to pretty much everything else. Still a good choice, and the hybrid cost makes it really easy to cast turn one.

Stromkirk Noble: In the right metagames, it can get out of hand quickly. Most of the time, though, it is rather underwhelming.

Legion Loyalist: On the plus side, the haste and his batallion ability allows him to be a relevant play in a number of situations. On the minus side, the batallion ability can be hard to trigger early, making him a subpar 1-drop for the early game, but one that keeps its relevancy (and sometimes even becomes more relevant). Personally, I would be more likely to play him as a 2-of to round out some numbers than as a 4-of.

Gravecrawler: A really good early drop if your base colour is black. Unfortunately, it requires some commitment to the Zomie tribe to beat out cards like Rakdos Cackler that doesn't die to Staticaster, Electrickery and Bonfire for 1, as well as random tokens and so on.

Diregraf Ghoul: Another good choice for a base-black list, and helps out with Gravecrawler.

Deathrite Shaman: An amazing card. Mediocre in the early game, but devestating over time. It's a good play against midrange if you can get it to stick in the midgame after a fast opener, it's amazing against control and it is a life-gain engine against aggro. Plus, its 2 toughness allows it to survive against a lot of early plays like Augur of Bolas and Staticaster, it removes graveyard cards to spite Reanimator and Snapcaster decks and its damage is unblockable. It does encourage you to play at least 9-10 instants/sorceries, though, and even then, running a full playset is a bad choice in my experience. I really like it as a 2-3-of. Doesn't really accelerate in Standard, however - even if your opponent kills off a Mutavault, you're not ahead on mana (although it can help you cast that 4-drop despite the setback).

Arbor Elf/Elvish Mystic: These cards, however, do. If you want acceleration, these are the 1-drops for the spot. As the deck idea evolved from the Red Deck Wins archetype, however, most lists here prefer more aggressive 1-drops - that choice fits my playstyle better as well, which makes it hard for me to be objective here. Do note, though, that the leack of Loxodon Smiter makes t1 accel less stellar.

2-drops:
Ash Zealot: Amazing. Really good early drop, discourages a lot of things in the format, and even trades with Fiendslayer Paladin. First strike is awesome, and enables it to stay relevant for a long time. It does require you to be heavily in red, though, and it discourages you from playing too many Mutavaults/Kessig Wolf Runs.

Lotleth Troll: A solid 2-drop and helps out Gravecrawler by being a zombie. Playing it in base-red makes it hard to get out on turn two, however, and, while it's good, there are better choices. Still, it has its usefulness.

Flinthoof Boar: Really, really, really good. The three toughness allows it to dodge Pillars, Turn // Burn (Burn), and the ability to give it haste makes it amazing in the late-game, or as a follow-up to a sweeper. It's good turn two, it's a great follow-up to another 2-drop when playing this on turn three (making it a very flexible choice). As a bonus, the relatively easy casting cost allows you to play it off of a Mutavault or a Kessig Wolf Run, both as a 2- and a 3-drop.

Scavenging Ooze: A solid card. It's great in Reanimator-heavy metagames, making a solid 1-2 with Deathrite Shaman. It does suffer from the deck's lack of dedication to green, though; it's often hard to make it bigger than a 3/3, and even that requires you to manage your green mana wisely (do you want to Bloodrush a Rampager this turn, or do you want to pump Ooze?). Still, it's a solid 2-drop, it can often stay relevant and I've rarely been sad to have it in my opener. Also, few other 2-drops can take down a Loxodon Smiter.

Strangleroot Geist: Obviously an amazing card, but requires a heavy dedication to green. I haven't done any testing with heavy-green lists, and as I wouldn't run it anywhere else, I won't comment further. =/

Spike Jester: Sort of hit-and-miss. It can be devestating in the early game, but horrible in the wrong matchups. Depending on the game, it can almost singlehandedly bring an opponent to his knees, but it can also end up just sitting in your hand, looking dumb; or take up a turn of your mana, then die horrribly to a Staticaster.

Young Pyromancer: Another good 2-drop. It's not as fast as some of the other cards on this list, and the 1 toughness hurts it more than I'd initially thought it would. It's also hard to fit in enough instants and sorceries to really make its ability devestating. Still, it can give you game against midrange decks that would otherwise be really hard, and it hurts a lot less to have a creature removed in response to a Bloodrush activation when that creature is a random token. I'm still a little on the fence on this one, but I'm not done testing him.

3-drops:
Flinthoof Boar: See above.

Boros Reckoner: First the cons: It requires heavy, heavy red commitment. It hurts more from Mutavault/Wolf Run inclusions than pretty much anything else on this list. It is also slow, compared to some of the other choices. Still, its ability is absolutely devestating against a number of decks, and it is really hard to block it well. Because of its colour requirements, however, it's risky to go above 2-3 - even in base red - if you plan on playing more than one Mutavault/Wolf Run.

Hellhole Flailer: A solid 3-drop that has become increasingly relevant by dodging Doom Blade. Unfortunately, it needs at least 23 lands to function properly and it works a lot better with 24. Still, with Doom Blade gaining popularity, and Mutavault encouraging ~23 lands already, it might very well be worth an inclusion. Did I mention that it can effectively race a Fiendslayer Paladin?

Dreg Mangler: Also dodges Doom Blade. It works best in base green or black, but it is somewhat safer in base red than, say, Lotleth Troll or Strangleroot Geist. Like Hellhole Flailer, however, it really needs around 24 lands to compare positively to Flinthoof Boar at the 3-slot. The haste is always welcome, though.

Geralf's Messenger: Really good, but requires a very heavy black commitment; also, punishes you for playing Mutavaults. Does help out with Gravecrawler, though, if you want to go that route.

Vampire Nighthawk: Very good anti-aggro card. It pretty much only works in base-black, but it doesn't punish Mutavault inclusions as much as, say, Boros Reckoner does in base-red. It also dodges Doom Blade.

4-drops and above:
Falkenrath Aristocrat: A really, really great choice. Hits hard, hits fast, and can even trade with an Archangel of Thune. The 1 toughness is, as always, a problem, but it can occasionally be remedied by saccing an irrelevant 1-drop. Dodges Doom Blade, but not Tragic Slip.

Ghor-Clan Rampager: A decent play at 4, trampling over tokens and dodging Searing Spear. Doubles as reach. For a detailed analysis of its ability, see under 'Other spells'. Short version, though? Very recommendable.

Hellrider: A solid card; a good ability and it hits hard. Doesn't dodge that much removal, but when it comes down, that shouldn't be that devestating. The big question is not whether it's good, though, but whether it stacks up to the other choices. Most posters here agree that Aristocrat is a better choice, but try it out for yourself.

Olivia Voldaren: More of a controlling card, and not really what we're looking for. If you decide to go this route, do tell us your testing results, though.

Huntmaster of the Fells: See Olivia above.

Thundermaw Hellkite: Definitely needs 24 lands to work reliably. Can be a good inclusion either MD or in the side, but don't play too many; they do clutter up your opening hands.

Thragtusk: See Hellkite above - Swagtusk is mostly a SB option, though. Furthermore, if you play enough removal, aggro decks really shouldn't force you to spend sideboard slots on a 5-drop. Not a card I would play here.

Other spells:
Searing Spear: The golden standard for burn spells. I play four, and I reccomend that number.

Pillar of Flame: While not great in a vacuum, Voice of Resurgence sort of necessitates these in some amount. They also hit undying creatures, and can be situationally useful against Reanimator decks. They are generally more useful than one might think, and they can help with the last bit of reach. Playing 3-4 of these in the main deck is recommended.

Skullcrack: A situational, but good card. One of the best plays in response to Sphinx's Revelation, Thragtusk and even against cards like Huntmaster of the Fells or Blood Baron of Vizkopa, buying you time. The reach it provides is also often appreciated, while simultaneously powering Deathrite Shaman. That said, they can clutter up your hand if you play too many, so splitting them between your main deck and sideboard is not a bad idea.

Dreadbore: A really useful card, hitting planeswalkers as well as dudes. It's not restricted like Doom Blade and that is its big strength. That said, the sorcery-speed does hurt, and it is often a bad answer to cards like Thragtusk and undying creatures. A powerful inclusion either in the main and/or side, but not an automatic one either way.

Ghor-clan Rampager (Bloodrush): Really powerful. Does leave you open to 2-for-1's, though. It punishes bad plays (both from you and your opponent), but/and it can turn games around that you had no business winning. One of the best ways to take down a Thragtusk too, making even a Deathrite Shaman or a Rakdos Cackler survive. Be careful about using it on an x/2 or lower against decks playing red, and on non-black creatures against black decks, though, as there are many things in the format to play in response. Also, note that it fuels both Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite Shaman.

Domri Rade: Requires you to play a lot of dudes, which makes utilizing Deathrite Shaman, Young Pyromancer and even Scavenging Ooze smewhat harder (although not impossible). That said, it's a powerful engine, and a really good card all around.

Putrefy: A solid card, but not all that reliable in base-red lists. Good removal, though, and gives you random outs to artifacts. Instant speed helps.

Abrupt Decay: Hits everything from Deathrite Shaman to Liliana of the Veil. It's an instant, and it's even immune to counterspells. That said, it's even harder to play reliably in base-red than Putrefy is - do note, however, that it stays relevant longer than, say, Lotleth Troll, so not being able to play it on turn two isn't necessarily devestating. Still, the colour requirements can occasionely screw you over in heavyly red builds.

Tragic Slip: Solid removal, if you roll that way. I'd say it's somewhat meta-dependant, though.

Bonfire of the Damned: A good card, but it suffers from the lack of mana dorks in most lists. Also, it's somewhat unreliable, and it mainly shines against aggro decks, which most builds have good matchups with either way.

Ratchet Bomb: Good against tokens. Usually fights over a sideboard inclusion with...:

Electrickery: This card is better in metagames where Snapcaster Mages, Young Pyromancers and mana-dorks run rampant. It doesn't hit tokens boosted by Intangible Virtue, though, nor does it answer Advent of the Wurm, Voice tokens or Selesnya Charm dudes.

Ground Seal: An alternative to Deathrite Shaman/Scavenging Ooze.

Tribute to Hunger: A solid sideboard inclusion. One of our few outs to Bant Hexproof.

Glaring Spotlight: ...Basically the other one; good in creature-heavy builds.

Traitorous Blood: A great card against midrange, which is a notoriously difficult matchup for us. Can eventually be supplemented by Mark of Mutiny, if you know your metagame well.
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
I ended up settling on a list similar to the AF79 list, except I borrowed tehbeast's vexings.
-3 noble, -1 boar, +4 vexing.
Testing it out tonight.
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192931349 wrote:
Back when I was in high school, I used to write little quotes on the whiteboard of my chemistry class, little, funny things that I'd made up and attributed to an anonymous author. Just tiny things I found amusing. Some time near the end of the year, a substitute teacher game in, read it, and told us a quote she had heard from a 13 year old girl. I don't remember what it was, but the quote sounded deep and philosophical. Then I actually thought about it. I realized that the quote was actually meaningless, but simply couched in the language of philosophy and depth. And that's what your post is. It is meaningless bull**** that you said in such a way as to make it seem sophisticated. But just as a lab coat doesn't make you a scientist, language won't make you a philosopher. Only love of wisdom will. And until then, you will always remind me of a nameless 13 year old.
The dirty tricks you can pull off with this deck are hilarious and ever-arising.
e.g. You have Ash Zealot and Falkenrath Aristocrat and your opponent is at 7 and lacks both blocks and removal. You can kill him this turn!
Boros Reckoner turns Mugging into the first half of Assault // Battery.
Knight of Infamy's exalted trigger on a Reckoner with first strike mana up means you can Searing Spear the opponent's Reckoner with impunity! He'll become very disappointed very rapidly when he realises that he has to point his Reckoner's triggered Bolt at your face instead of either creature. :D

Vexing Devil is nuts and I've never had an opponent EVER be okay with either choice. But does anyone know why it's more expensive than ever before (around 10 USD)? It only really picked up steam since around Dragon's Maze, when other marginally-played Innistrad cards are beginning to be traded/sold off in preparation for rotation.

Pillar of Flame every Blood Artist you see. I used to play Artist, this is important. If you don't get rid of Artist, it will hit you for around 5-10, and that kind of life swing is pretty awkward for this deck.
Blind Obedience is also a pain in the ass. Just play through it, removing your opponent's blockers early and frequently. Thankfully, Obedience isn't really in vogue right now so you're unlikely to see more than a couple total, and they'll rarely be played before turn 4.

Prioritise Spike Jester over Ash Zealot on turn 2, if the mana will allow it. Players will usually be hesitant to trade their mana dork for it and if they do, you've probably set them back a turn. This deck forces your opponent to rethink everything he has ever learned about playing against aggro.

There's no card draw in here because it's unnecessary. This list is tiggity tizz-ite, y'all.

Unless you've got Ghor-Clan Rampager (and why wouldn't you, really?), Traitorous Blood is the Threaten of choice here, else Mark of Mutiny is probably good, provided you aren't planning on returning your opponent's creature to him.

44/75 of my list survives rotation, Shock can more or less pick up the slack left by Pillar, Toil // Trouble will become a 4-of, barring anything completely bazonkers from Theros and M14, and M14 looks to be pretty disappointing so far.
I have the answer to why vexing devil is worth do much...

Here's a hint; it starts with M.
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192931349 wrote:
Back when I was in high school, I used to write little quotes on the whiteboard of my chemistry class, little, funny things that I'd made up and attributed to an anonymous author. Just tiny things I found amusing. Some time near the end of the year, a substitute teacher game in, read it, and told us a quote she had heard from a 13 year old girl. I don't remember what it was, but the quote sounded deep and philosophical. Then I actually thought about it. I realized that the quote was actually meaningless, but simply couched in the language of philosophy and depth. And that's what your post is. It is meaningless bull**** that you said in such a way as to make it seem sophisticated. But just as a lab coat doesn't make you a scientist, language won't make you a philosopher. Only love of wisdom will. And until then, you will always remind me of a nameless 13 year old.
What's he do in modern? Does modern have any burn lists that don't run Bob?
Straight up Burn decks in Legacy and Modern run him.

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Boasts?

2011 States Top 4
Multiple 2013 IQ Top 4/8 Finishes
Designer of Top 8 States finishing MBC decks in 2011, 2010, and 2009 
Standard Forum - Iron Deck Builder Season One Champ

Favorite Quotes

"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter 
"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes

I'll be piloting this deck at a small, mostly competitive tournament tonight - if i can pick up the Boars. I don't think that will be a problem, though. I'm expecting 4-5 rounds, no top 8. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

[Edit]: I'd like to hear more about Random_Kid's experiences with the deck too - if you see this, do throw us a line or two.

[Edit 2]: Tournament is postponed until tomorrow. =/
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
I did some testing in the kitchen against poorly piloted tier 1 decks. I played around with both variations and my own mix. Here's what I think:
22 land seems to be the magic number for me. I'm running a 2:1 or better shock:buddy mix with only 3 non-red sources. I have had very few muls from bad land with this kind of mix.
Rampager is a beast! Without a doubt the star of the deck as far as damage production. I have rarely gone to the point where I had to hard cast him.
The aristocrat makes a great blood rush target.
A mix with 3 each of shaman, zealot, and jester is working well. I'll typically have at least one to cast while I wait for colors to play another.
Vexing vs. Noble went to vexing. Noble never ever has a chance to build up, where vexing is almost always an automatic 4. I've never said once "I wish I had a noble in my hand. Even cacklers are out performing noble.

Vs aggro flavors: it's a trade off until they run out of steam, then aristocrats come out and stomp it up. Rampagers wreck aggro so bad.
Vs midrange: if I'm fast enough, no problems. If not, hellkites and Reckoners aren't bad.
Vs control: the pilot I played against was mystified by the deck choices. I think I caught him by surprise and he wasn't sure what the priority targets were. I don't think I got a fair representation.
Vs junk rites: never even had a chance to stabilize in either game.

That's what I got for now. When I get home tonight I'll post my updated list.
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192931349 wrote:
Back when I was in high school, I used to write little quotes on the whiteboard of my chemistry class, little, funny things that I'd made up and attributed to an anonymous author. Just tiny things I found amusing. Some time near the end of the year, a substitute teacher game in, read it, and told us a quote she had heard from a 13 year old girl. I don't remember what it was, but the quote sounded deep and philosophical. Then I actually thought about it. I realized that the quote was actually meaningless, but simply couched in the language of philosophy and depth. And that's what your post is. It is meaningless bull**** that you said in such a way as to make it seem sophisticated. But just as a lab coat doesn't make you a scientist, language won't make you a philosopher. Only love of wisdom will. And until then, you will always remind me of a nameless 13 year old.
Ok, so here's the list I'v e been testing with. I basically took what I thought were the best cards of each list and tweaked the numbers a bit. I'm pretty happy where this ended up.

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This board uses a feature known as Autocard. It allows you to tag a card or group of cards and link them directly to the Gatherer for easy reference. Here's how it works: Say I start a discussion about Lightning Bolt. It is well and fine for people who are familiar with Lightning Bolt and everything Lightning Bolt does. Suppose somebody doesn't know what this card does. I can autocard like this: [*c]Lightning Bolt[*/c] (without using the *'s) and it appears to everyone like this: Lightning Bolt. You can do the same thing to a decklist by using [*deck] and [*/deck] (again, without the *'s) at the begining and end of your list respectively. This will make your decks easier to understand and get you better responses. Here are some useful links to get you started: Building Your First Deck The Rule of Nine Magic: The Gathering Rules Magic: The Gathering Formats Tips & Tricks
192931349 wrote:
Back when I was in high school, I used to write little quotes on the whiteboard of my chemistry class, little, funny things that I'd made up and attributed to an anonymous author. Just tiny things I found amusing. Some time near the end of the year, a substitute teacher game in, read it, and told us a quote she had heard from a 13 year old girl. I don't remember what it was, but the quote sounded deep and philosophical. Then I actually thought about it. I realized that the quote was actually meaningless, but simply couched in the language of philosophy and depth. And that's what your post is. It is meaningless bull**** that you said in such a way as to make it seem sophisticated. But just as a lab coat doesn't make you a scientist, language won't make you a philosopher. Only love of wisdom will. And until then, you will always remind me of a nameless 13 year old.
Nice-lookin' list. How's it doing?
Aggro: A bye, assuming you know how to board



OK, pretend I don't.   This is a cool thread, but I would like to glean something about boarding strategies in the current meta for it... can you guys illuminate me?
rstnme: "Everything looks good when your opponent passes 4 turns in a row."
Here are my experiences from tonight. I went up against RUG, Esper Tokens (I know, weird, right?), America Control and another RUG deck (are these on the rise?)

R1 (RUG): First game I ran him over. Second game much of the same, except that I actually got to play Scullcrack in response to his boarded-in Thragtusks. Fun.

R2 (Esper Tokens): In the first game, I get to start on a Dearhrite, but I don't get the black mana to activate it. This leaves him wide open to flashback his Lingering Souls, play another and flashback that as well. All of a sudden, my Aristocrats and my Spike Jesters underperformed heftily. I couldn't bring the game back.
G2 I Sided Skullcracks in here - why play token in Esper colours if not to bring in Revelations against aggro and midrange? Hint on how the next game went: There were *no* lifegain in his deck. I also sided in a Rakdos' Return, a Slaughter Games. and two Electrickery. Didn't see any of those 'blowouts' - and because I had too many useless Skullcracks in my hand, I needed the blowout cards infinitely more. =/

So far, 1-1. I then get a bye, putting it at 2-1.

R4 (America)
Game 1, on the draw. I don't think I missed a land drop until t8. Luckily, an early Deathrite Shaman could slowly drain him for life and Snapcaster targets. Through both Revelations and Verdicts, it was hard to get anything to stick, but a lategame Stormkirk Noble got around a Surprise Snapcaster blocker with some help from Rampager, and the game culminated a couple of turns later in a large chain of Skullcrack in respond to Warleader's Helix in respond to Searing Spear, finally burning out the game. Note that he had the Snapcasters to stop me, but my Shaman had taken away any opportunity to answer anything at that point. #All-Star

Game 2, again on the draw. He kills my Cackler, Kills my 2-drops and whatever I played tunr 3. Turn 4 I tap out for an Aristocrat to finally deal some damage. He takes advantage of that and Revelates for 2. I, however, am sitting on two Scullcrack and a Searing Pillar. After a Rampaged Aristocrat, I just let him tap out for some PW'er that should have brought him back, then smacked and burned him out.

R5 (RUG)
Game 1 was a long, drawn out mess. I'd even won the die roll, but i was stuck without black mana for a while. This meant that Deathrite Shaman couldn't rip out neither chunks of life nor Snapcaster targets. That essentially lost me the game. When he started doing shenanigans with Snapcaster Mage, and my lategame Aristocrat wasn't enough to salvage it.

Next game was also long and drawn out. There was a long back-and-forth, resulting in a very positive board state for my opponent. Again, Deathrite Shaman shined, dealing damage with his ability, removing opposing bounceback-factor by removing Snapcaster targets. So while my opponent's board looked grim, luckily, none of those guys could fly. A Rampaged Aristocrat took him to 2, and Deathrite Shaman finished up the job. #All-Star

Game 3 was really tight. We both went into the red zone frequently, because the conception of who was the beatdown changed play-by-play. Unfortunately for me, while i had him at 5, I hit a pocket of lands, and my Searing Spear couldn't do the trick on his own. To make matters worse, his Ral Zarek slowly built towards his ultimate. When I got the options to try and get out of the problem, it was too late. My opponent had drawn too many answers while I was digging for gold in the dirt, so I never managed to put him down the rest of the way.

This also happened to be another match where I'd have assumed Thragtusk would come in from the board, but none came. I'd ended up siding out burn for additional ammunition, but the Skullcracks had a very diminished function in that MU.

Good nows, though. There were no decks where I felt any lack of confidence to beat them. Personally, I'll need to play the format some more, and learn the ins and outs. That being said, the resiliency of this deck, taking home games it just has *no* business winning - I'm very impressed with the deck's performance tonight. Now, to tuning... =)
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Aggro: A bye, assuming you know how to board



OK, pretend I don't.   This is a cool thread, but I would like to glean something about boarding strategies in the current meta for it... can you guys illuminate me?


Aggro matchups are generally not a race to the finish, but a war of attrition. The first player to start playing creatures that don't get answered, has a huge advantage.

What you can do in this deck, is to sideboard more removal in in the aggro MU, and win the war of attrition over a series of turns. Our creatures are also generally slightly fewer, but much better: we have Ash Zealot to their Emissary and Spike Jester to their Lightning Mauler. Their low burn package prevents them from properly handling us, while we can basically smash their biggest threats to pieces.
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
Not sure how fair of a representation is facing an Esper tokens list and 2 RUG decks. All of which are tough to consider even Tier 2. 


With that said how did the American players not take care of the DRS before it got out of hand? It seems like it would be a prime burn target and should be put in the GY before it makes Snapcaster Mage irrelevant. Did they just use burn on your other creatures while you kept exiling their GY?


The deck seems like it should be competitive but I'm not sold on how it would do against a competitive metagame. Spike Jester seems very outclassed in current standard and I really don't like Deathrite Shaman here. I think if you played the aggro mirror you would see how bad DRS is in that matchup. 


Play against Bant Pants, Naya, Blitz, Jund, and Reanimator and post those results for a more fair representation. 
DRS is for when you can't afford to be attacking blindly, and the recycling provided is pretty nice. He is SUPER damaging to control, I'm not sure what you'd want in his place.

I can understand how you'd be spooked by Spike Jester's low toughness, but there are fewer more effective ways to race than by dropping him after a Cackler and swinging for 5 a turn, burning out any blockers that appear.

I played my version against a Grixis zombies, BARELY losing in game 3; against a deck specifically designed to beat my deck, losing 0-2; and against a humanimator/immortal servitude deck, winning in 3. I probably got lucky against the humanimator deck, honestly. We need non-white sweepers. Blasphemous Act doesn't count.

I'm gonna see if zombies work any better now that not everyone has Pillars main.
@Tryune: You ask some relevant questions, and I'll answer you as best I can.

I agree that the tournament wasn't a fair representation of the meta. I don't have anywhere better to play, though, so I'm just posting results as they come in. =) That being said, I think that some of the lessons learned are very vaild. For an example, I'm tempted to go down to 2 Spike Jester and bump Flinthoof Boar to 4 after the Esper Tokens matchup. Was the deck very representative of a competitive meta? No, but going up against a ton of Snapcaster Mages, Lingering Souls and Azorious Charms taught me some important things about the weaknesses of the deck.

In the America MU, DRS just got 'out of hand' too quickly. My opponent was mostly trying to survive against my Spike Jesters and Stormkirk Nobles, but he hit DRS and something else with a Verdict to stabilize around 12 life. At that point, however, I'd been able to exile an Izzet Charm, a Dissipate and something else I don't remember. That plus the early pressure meant that a Skullcrack in response to his Helix, and an Aristocrat that he couldn't remove until it had already hit home put him within burn range. It did take me around 3 turns to find the second burn spell, but he kept drawing useless Snapcasters and Azorious Charms, as well as some PW'ers that didn't do anything at that point.

I played the aggro mirror last week, and I was actually impressed with Deathrite Shaman. It could be hard work to get it to stick, but once you do it's just a lifegain engine that keeps on going.

I'll keep playing in the most competitive tourneys I can find, though, and I'll post results when I have them. =)
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
I been having good luck testing against some top 8 clones we 'borrowed' from the internets. Admittedly, me and my group are not tournament level players, but as far as content vs. content, my only big issues have been against midrange decks.
I'll have more useful results after Friday night.
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192931349 wrote:
Back when I was in high school, I used to write little quotes on the whiteboard of my chemistry class, little, funny things that I'd made up and attributed to an anonymous author. Just tiny things I found amusing. Some time near the end of the year, a substitute teacher game in, read it, and told us a quote she had heard from a 13 year old girl. I don't remember what it was, but the quote sounded deep and philosophical. Then I actually thought about it. I realized that the quote was actually meaningless, but simply couched in the language of philosophy and depth. And that's what your post is. It is meaningless bull**** that you said in such a way as to make it seem sophisticated. But just as a lab coat doesn't make you a scientist, language won't make you a philosopher. Only love of wisdom will. And until then, you will always remind me of a nameless 13 year old.
After reading the tourney report above, just wanted to remind you that surprise Snapcasters can never block Stromkirk Noble.

Team PMP - Practice Makes Perfect

Team GFG - Good F***ing Game

Disclaimer: This member may or may not be associated with Team GFG in any other regard besides his admiration of its members.

Use faith in the absence of science, not in its stead.

It can if it's flashbacking Turn // Burn. Admittedly, waiting until the attack phase against a Rampager deck was a mistake on his part, but to be fair, last week I played the deck straight Rakdos, splashing green only for Deathrites.

[Edit]: After looking through my notes on the games, I think I was thinking of a different play in one of the other games - that time, I let him change the mode to Burn, and he was smart enough to do it before combat. He didn't have that option the first time, though - I don't know what lategame early drop I made that game, but it was blocked without Turn. Maybe it was a Cackler or a Jester? Didn't take detailed enough notes... =/
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
4 Flinthoof 2 Jester sounds about right. I've REALLY been enjoying the Boar in my deck since I added it.
^ I'm gonna give that a try. I do enjoy the boars.
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192931349 wrote:
Back when I was in high school, I used to write little quotes on the whiteboard of my chemistry class, little, funny things that I'd made up and attributed to an anonymous author. Just tiny things I found amusing. Some time near the end of the year, a substitute teacher game in, read it, and told us a quote she had heard from a 13 year old girl. I don't remember what it was, but the quote sounded deep and philosophical. Then I actually thought about it. I realized that the quote was actually meaningless, but simply couched in the language of philosophy and depth. And that's what your post is. It is meaningless bull**** that you said in such a way as to make it seem sophisticated. But just as a lab coat doesn't make you a scientist, language won't make you a philosopher. Only love of wisdom will. And until then, you will always remind me of a nameless 13 year old.
On a related note, I'm finally getting sold on the idea of Vexing Devil over Stormkirk Noble. They just interact a lot better with Rampagers, making the punisher card, oddly, the more reliable option. I still can't get my head around that last part, but you read right.
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
Agreed. If you're not holding the line waiting for a hell rider, vexing pushes way more than a noble every time.
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192931349 wrote:
Back when I was in high school, I used to write little quotes on the whiteboard of my chemistry class, little, funny things that I'd made up and attributed to an anonymous author. Just tiny things I found amusing. Some time near the end of the year, a substitute teacher game in, read it, and told us a quote she had heard from a 13 year old girl. I don't remember what it was, but the quote sounded deep and philosophical. Then I actually thought about it. I realized that the quote was actually meaningless, but simply couched in the language of philosophy and depth. And that's what your post is. It is meaningless bull**** that you said in such a way as to make it seem sophisticated. But just as a lab coat doesn't make you a scientist, language won't make you a philosopher. Only love of wisdom will. And until then, you will always remind me of a nameless 13 year old.
I'm giving this deck a break this FNM, in favor of Grixis zombies, inspired by a narrow Ass whuppin' on Tuesday.
I'll give a quick report, mostly because the matchups are starting to get fuzzy.

R1 vs. Bant Midrange

G1 I had an amazing hand. Turn 2 bloodrushed vexing, turn 3 boars, turn 4 aristocrat. He scooped at the start of turn 5 after no meaningful resistance.
G2 I mulligan to 5 from bad land. He got an early Thragtusk. I scooped as soon as he started blinking it.
G3 was another quick one. He got a Thrag out, but couldn't blink it. Bloodrushed Aristocrats saved the day and I made off with a 2-1.

R2 vs. RG Agro

G1 was interesting. I drop a cackler, he drops a cackler. I drop a zealot, he drops a zealot. I drop another zealot, he drops another zealot. I drop a boar and burn his face.
G2 He pulls turn 2 double BTE into a Mauler. We trade creatures and drag out to turn 6 until I draw Aristocrats, then bloodrush.
2-0

R3 vs. Bant Hexproof

He Godhands both games. I don't want to talk about it.

R4 vs. Junk Rites (I think. or maybe Reanimator)

G1 I get another god hand. Vexing to the face, zealot, boar, aristocrat, bloodrush. He never had the chance to get set up.
G2 was simmilar. He had some small creatures out I don't remember. It was some kind of zombie. I couldn't steamroll him as easily, but I had a Deathrite in play and I was picking off his graveyard targets. Surprise, Aristocrats saved the day again!
2-0

3rd place overall for the night.

I did swap a jester for a boar like I mentioned earlier. The boars are doing more lifting than the jesters seem to be.
I might try to find a spot for a third Aristocrat. It was a game saver more than a few times.
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192931349 wrote:
Back when I was in high school, I used to write little quotes on the whiteboard of my chemistry class, little, funny things that I'd made up and attributed to an anonymous author. Just tiny things I found amusing. Some time near the end of the year, a substitute teacher game in, read it, and told us a quote she had heard from a 13 year old girl. I don't remember what it was, but the quote sounded deep and philosophical. Then I actually thought about it. I realized that the quote was actually meaningless, but simply couched in the language of philosophy and depth. And that's what your post is. It is meaningless bull**** that you said in such a way as to make it seem sophisticated. But just as a lab coat doesn't make you a scientist, language won't make you a philosopher. Only love of wisdom will. And until then, you will always remind me of a nameless 13 year old.
I did swap a jester for a boar like I mentioned earlier. The boars are doing more lifting than the jesters seem to be. I might try to find a spot for a third Aristocrat. It was a game saver more than a few times.



Honestly i would cut the last 2 jesters and go with either the 4th zealot and 3rd aristocrat or go up to 4 aristocrats.
I figured he didn't have the budget for a set of Aristocrats and wasn't gonna taunt him.
Not a set, but I can swing for a third. I already have the fourth zealot.
I was not very impressed with the jester's performance. I wouldn't mind cutting it entirely. I typically found the zealot easier to get out and easier to keep alive.
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192931349 wrote:
Back when I was in high school, I used to write little quotes on the whiteboard of my chemistry class, little, funny things that I'd made up and attributed to an anonymous author. Just tiny things I found amusing. Some time near the end of the year, a substitute teacher game in, read it, and told us a quote she had heard from a 13 year old girl. I don't remember what it was, but the quote sounded deep and philosophical. Then I actually thought about it. I realized that the quote was actually meaningless, but simply couched in the language of philosophy and depth. And that's what your post is. It is meaningless bull**** that you said in such a way as to make it seem sophisticated. But just as a lab coat doesn't make you a scientist, language won't make you a philosopher. Only love of wisdom will. And until then, you will always remind me of a nameless 13 year old.
Yeah, I've been noticing that too. :< It was probably a fluke for the first couple weeks. Boar's been great, I should've been running him the whole time and Islands' list should as well.
I've actually been thinking along those lines as well.
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
That having been said, keep them on hand for post rotation, as well as Brushstrider.
this is one of the most interesting threads I've read on the forums in quite a while. Thanks

Newbs! Ask me your questions but always question my answers ;)

 

EDH decks I play:

 

Derevi: http://community.wizards.com/forum/commander-edh/threads/4025591

I think at least a 2 of brimstone volley should be worked into the MB of tehbeasts' deck, it's value just goes up with having the full 4 aristocrats imo.
Main, side, whatever. Tried Grixis zombies, blue tended to get in the way, considering just using a pile of zombies and every reasonably-costed burn spell I own.

Gruul + black up next.
I think at least a 2 of brimstone volley should be worked into the MB of tehbeasts' deck, it's value just goes up with having the full 4 aristocrats imo.


Set your VCR's, mark the tape! This is going to be the one time I say no to a volley. This deck has so much value power in it, I actually think the CMC of the volley works against it here. Sure it's an easy five, but we have better ways to get there. I think the volley will just get in the way.
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192931349 wrote:
Back when I was in high school, I used to write little quotes on the whiteboard of my chemistry class, little, funny things that I'd made up and attributed to an anonymous author. Just tiny things I found amusing. Some time near the end of the year, a substitute teacher game in, read it, and told us a quote she had heard from a 13 year old girl. I don't remember what it was, but the quote sounded deep and philosophical. Then I actually thought about it. I realized that the quote was actually meaningless, but simply couched in the language of philosophy and depth. And that's what your post is. It is meaningless bull**** that you said in such a way as to make it seem sophisticated. But just as a lab coat doesn't make you a scientist, language won't make you a philosopher. Only love of wisdom will. And until then, you will always remind me of a nameless 13 year old.
I actually played a couple of Volleys MD beside two Aristocrats, in order to have four late-game finishers.

To preface my results, let me add that the deck played 22 lands, and had it played 23-24, my experience with the card may have been better. As it was, though, I think I actually played the card once. Otherwise, it was just stuck in my hand. Three mana is a *lot* to keep open. =/
Photobucket Banner by zpikduM - typo also by zpikduM. =) Skide Fuld - Problem of Evil by frontsession Currently playing Standard: TurboJund Legacy: Zoo Block: Hahaha, good one! 1000th post on August 28, 2009 at 6:08PM
I run a fairly similiar Jund list, and as strange as it might sound considering most people want theirs R/G heavy, one of my biggest all-stars is Vampire Nighthawk.  Not something you'd normally want in an aggro list, but for one, it kills Angel of Serenity all quick and in a hurry (people only refuse to block once, until I rush a rampager on them and we make a 6 point life swing) which by the time it's cast it's usually targeting my creatures anyway to stabalize, and against other aggro it's fantastic to keep the upper hand.  I'm also a strong advocate of Lotleth Troll, especially when used alongside Varolz, the Scar-striped.  Of course, here lately I've just become unimpressed with ol' Varolz and have been boarding him out more often than not.
List?
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192931349 wrote:
Back when I was in high school, I used to write little quotes on the whiteboard of my chemistry class, little, funny things that I'd made up and attributed to an anonymous author. Just tiny things I found amusing. Some time near the end of the year, a substitute teacher game in, read it, and told us a quote she had heard from a 13 year old girl. I don't remember what it was, but the quote sounded deep and philosophical. Then I actually thought about it. I realized that the quote was actually meaningless, but simply couched in the language of philosophy and depth. And that's what your post is. It is meaningless bull**** that you said in such a way as to make it seem sophisticated. But just as a lab coat doesn't make you a scientist, language won't make you a philosopher. Only love of wisdom will. And until then, you will always remind me of a nameless 13 year old.
Looks like fun. Any comments on how it does against certain matchups?
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192931349 wrote:
Back when I was in high school, I used to write little quotes on the whiteboard of my chemistry class, little, funny things that I'd made up and attributed to an anonymous author. Just tiny things I found amusing. Some time near the end of the year, a substitute teacher game in, read it, and told us a quote she had heard from a 13 year old girl. I don't remember what it was, but the quote sounded deep and philosophical. Then I actually thought about it. I realized that the quote was actually meaningless, but simply couched in the language of philosophy and depth. And that's what your post is. It is meaningless bull**** that you said in such a way as to make it seem sophisticated. But just as a lab coat doesn't make you a scientist, language won't make you a philosopher. Only love of wisdom will. And until then, you will always remind me of a nameless 13 year old.
Esper is kind of hit or miss, pending on the draw really.

Reanimator is kind of a joke.  I usually stomp right through them.

R/B/x Midrange is my biggest challenge.  Olivia just slaughters me if I don't have removal on the ready.

Other aggro decks...Pfft.

R/W/B control, pending on the player really.  Basically if the pilot is just netdecking something they have no idea how to play I stomp them and it gets kind of funny, but an actual R/W/B player can usually give me a run for my money.  I've never had a matchup that I felt I couldn't overcome.

Aristocrats are an incredibly fun matchup, and it's basically all about how well you can predict your opponents plays.

I used to play this list with spears instead of the Nighthawks, and basically if I saw a single Thragtusk I already knew it was lights out.  Surprisingly, these bad boys get me out of more pickles than they are probably worth. 

With this build, I fairly consistently pull of a t4 kill, obviously pending on the hand.  Like anything, it could always use improvements, but it's served me well this season.  I recently picked Esper back up, but I still get the hankering for this from time to time.