Legends & Lore: System vs Content in D&D Next (June 24)

I'm not much of a Realms person, but it's strange to me that they're doing another Event That Changes The Realms Forever; I get the impression that the public reaction to those tends to be mixed at best and not generally positive. It's possible that they actually are super popular and what appears to be be not-so-positive reactions are just a vocal minority, but my impression based on the reactions to them was that they're not generally beloved. (It's also possible that they feel like they've really nailed down how to do them, and they're going to pull it off better this time.)
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
Not much of a Pre-Generated Campaign Setting person myself, however I do understand the gist of trying to have a major world-changing cataclysm as a bridge into a major overhaul of the core game system. It does make for easier acceptance of the whole "out with the old, in with the new" that people are going to have to deal with.

This doesn't mean they haven't done it wrong in the past, or alienated people in doing so, but it still makes sense from a design standpoint.
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Yay, flexibility is still a design goal.

Gen-Con/Forgotten Realms stuff...
Wake me up when they either confirm the Realms as the default setting, or when something that matters to the game as a whole comes up. Also, let me know how the Con is, can't make it this year.
I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
All good stuff!  For me at least, the L&L's have become much less controversial as D&D Next begins to gel.

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

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Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

Not really.  There are just fewer people left who actually care enough about the controversial material to argue.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Another Realms Changing Event eh? How many is that now?

Otherwise, he says all the right things. Disconnecting alignment from mechanics is not a new idea, but it's nice seeing confirmation again. As always, I'll wait to see the specifics before I let myself get too excited.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/12.jpg)

this souds like sensible talk, what did you do with the old mike?
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Someone made the point that running low on spells and hit points while in the middle of the dungeon was irritating. Putting the adventure on pause to return to town was disappointing.

I have a side question about this line.
Are there people that actualy alouw that players put a advanture on pauze and head back to town ?
In our games if you ran out of recourced to the point you had to retreat it basicly ment you failed the adventure.

So you attacked the bandits that kidnapped the princess at their hideout and retreated for a day ?
Well if you return there are 2 things likly to have happend
A : they moved the princess to another location.
B : on your first attack you killed quite a few dandits and they want revenge, the hidout is aboandond exept for the stake with the princess head on it.

 
Scenarios happen all the time where you can go back to town.
Only ones i could think of would be the ones where no inteligent creatures detected you attacking them on the first day.
 
 
Not every adventure is “save the princess”.
Someone made the point that running low on spells and hit points while in the middle of the dungeon was irritating. Putting the adventure on pause to return to town was disappointing.

I have a side question about this line.
Are there people that actualy alouw that players put a advanture on pauze and head back to town ?
In our games if you ran out of recourced to the point you had to retreat it basicly ment you failed the adventure.

So you attacked the bandits that kidnapped the princess at their hideout and retreated for a day ?
Well if you return there are 2 things likly to have happend
A : they moved the princess to another location.
B : on your first attack you killed quite a few dandits and they want revenge, the hidout is aboandond exept for the stake with the princess head on it.

 



Yep because every adventure has a timer or consequences for failure.

I mean the consequences for failure if you delve into an ancient abandoned tomb filled with traps and mindless undead and wild animals (dire rats, giant rats, and dire giant rats, slimes, oozes, jellies etc...etc...) is that you have to wait to go back in until you are done resting. If you take long enough, maybe the animals breed and there are more of them (dire rats breed at a rate of 10% population increase per 3 months right?).

Unless of course you are going to go all meta and have some random adventuring party other than the players raid every tomb if they leave it. At that point I'd probably start hunting down the competition and simply loot their bodies. Let them do the work and get all the reward for myself...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Not every adventure is “save the princess”.



retrive the item. if it is a item held by inteligent creatures it will be moved to some other location if you retrerat.
If it is not moved the defenses will be greatly hightend making it very hard to try again unless you bring more people to help you.

Nutralise a treat of inteligent creatures if you don't do it in one go they will move to another location, highten their defenses, our counter attack.

 

If you are forced to retreat against inteligent creatures it is no longer a case if you can complete the adventure.
It becomes a case of managing the degree of your failure 
Someone made the point that running low on spells and hit points while in the middle of the dungeon was irritating. Putting the adventure on pause to return to town was disappointing.

I have a side question about this line.
Are there people that actualy alouw that players put a advanture on pauze and head back to town ?
In our games if you ran out of recourced to the point you had to retreat it basicly ment you failed the adventure.

So you attacked the bandits that kidnapped the princess at their hideout and retreated for a day ?
Well if you return there are 2 things likly to have happend
A : they moved the princess to another location.
B : on your first attack you killed quite a few dandits and they want revenge, the hidout is aboandond exept for the stake with the princess head on it.

 



That is more or less the differences of intensity of the actually stages of adventuring.

For example, in my game GETTING TO the dungeon drains more resources than the dungeon itself.

Imagine a simple quest as this

Get Quest at Town
Travel to Dungeon
Explore Dungeon
Travel back to Town

Depedending on the PC's resources, the DM can set up a game like this.

Get Quest: 100% resources remaining
First day of travel to the Dungeon: 100% resources remaining
Second day of travel to the Dungeon 90% resources remaining
Dungeon rooms 1-3: 80% resources remaining
Dungeon rooms 4-6: 60% resources remaining
Dungeon rooms 7-9: 10% resources remaining
First day of travel to the Town: 10% resources remaining
First day of travel to the Town: 10% resources remaining


That would be the Traditional Game with 1 Random Encounter in the wild and Boss Monster at the end f the dungeon


But the game could be set up like this:

Get Quest: 100% resources remaining
First day of travel to the Dungeon: 100% resources remaining
Second day of travel to the Dungeon 90% resources remaining
Dungeon rooms 1-3: 55% resources remaining
Dungeon rooms 4-6: 15% resources remaining
First day of travel to the Town: 15% resources remaining
Second day of travel to the Town: 5% resources remaining
Rest: 100% resources remaining
First day of travel to the Dungeon: 90% resources remaining
Second day of travel to the Dungeon 70% resources remaining
Dungeon rooms 1-3: 30% resources remaining
Dungeon rooms 4-6: 20% resources remaining
Dungeon rooms 7-9: 10% resources remaining
First day of travel to the Town: 10% resources remaining
First day of travel to the Town: 1% resources remaining

Where the party are drained before the end of the duengeon, return to town, and come back to a harder hitting start.

Or it can be like my games:

Get Quest: 90% resources remaining
First day of travel to the Dungeon: 75% resources remaining
Second day of travel to the Dungeon 50% resources remaining
Dungeon rooms 1-3: 45% resources remaining
Dungeon rooms 4-6: 40% resources remaining
Dungeon rooms 7-9: 35% resources remaining
First day of travel to the Town: 20% resources remaining
First day of travel to the Town: 1% resources remaining

Where you can't even get to the dungeon at half strength most of the time and barely make it home after an eassy dungeon crawl.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Not really.  There are just fewer people left who actually care enough about the controversial material to argue.



I said "For me."  I don't find them controversial, or in other words I like the way things are going.  Try to comprehend before reacting.

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

OSR Fan? Our Big Announcement™ is here!

Please join our forums!

Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

Personally I just can not believe that anyone is till trying to run a murder mystery with one evil person as the murderer.

What is this, the 70's show?

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Homogenising: Making vanilla in 31 different colours
Personally I just can not believe that anyone is till trying to run a murder mystery with one evil person as the murderer.

What is this, the 70's show?



What about an evil advisor to the Duke?  Or any other single evil infiltrator of an organization?  Can't do it with detect evil spells unless you create some societal construct that makes it rude to cast detect spells on people without just cause.

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

OSR Fan? Our Big Announcement™ is here!

Please join our forums!

Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

Not every adventure is “save the princess”.



retrive the item. if it is a item held by inteligent creatures it will be moved to some other location if you retrerat.

If it is not moved the defenses will be greatly hightend making it very hard to try again unless you bring more people to help you.


Sure. When the players step out of the railroad cart and decide to do their own thing, follow their story wherever it goes.

If monsters are alert and now extra vigilant after the players make a “tactical retreat”, see what the players can do about the new situation.

Sometimes the players can complete the original objective. Sometimes the story evolves into a new objective. Iv done both kinds of outcomes, both as DM and as a member of a team.



This sorta ties into the dictum to “fail forward”. When things dont work out, make a new story out of it.
this souds like sensible talk, what did you do with the old mike?




shhhhhhhhhhhh, don't look their way, their kinda like the Blind Angels from Dr. Who, if you look their way or acknowledge them, they can't move, you'll find out its all just some safe little dream!!!!
Want continued support for 4e, check this out, 4e Lives and Breaths

Check out MY eZine, Random Encounters Seuss (lordseussmd on YM)
Not really.  There are just fewer people left who actually care enough about the controversial material to argue.



More like the number of folks willing to endure the normal anti 5e crowd to voice their opinion has diminished... 

Warder 

My Ignore List: blacksheepcannibal

lokiare

englishlanguage

verdegris_sage

Polaris

Personally I just can not believe that anyone is till trying to run a murder mystery with one evil person as the murderer.

What is this, the 70's show?



Or like the 90´s when every NPC is evil but you don´t know which one did this particular evil thing.

I use elemental alignment anyway. 

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Not really.  There are just fewer people left who actually care enough about the controversial material to argue.



More like the number of folks willing to endure the normal anti 5e crowd to voice their opinion has diminished... 

Warder 


Can we quote people who have us on Ignore?

Either way.
I doubt anyone here is anti-5E.
There isn't a 5E yet to be against.
People want 5E to be a game they want to play. They may disagree with the direction it appears to be developing in, but that does not mean they are agaisnt there being a 5th Edition. Quite the contrary, if they were anti-5E, I doubt they would bother with this board or playtest. 
I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
Personally I just can not believe that anyone is till trying to run a murder mystery with one evil person as the murderer.

What is this, the 70's show?



What about an evil advisor to the Duke?  Or any other single evil infiltrator of an organization?  Can't do it with detect evil spells unless you create some societal construct that makes it rude to cast detect spells on people without just cause.



Or just have evil people that everyone knows are evil, but they are just too powerful, or too useful to the king (or both) for anyone to do anything about.

Excuse me, King, did you realise that the Arch-Duke is Evil?

Of course, you dunder head, but he is the only one who is capable of dealing with my enemies.

Member of the Axis of Awesome

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Homogenising: Making vanilla in 31 different colours
Or just have evil people that everyone knows are evil, but they are just too powerful, or too useful to the king (or both) for anyone to do anything about.

Excuse me, King, did you realise that the Arch-Duke is Evil?

Of course, you dunder head, but he is the only one who is capable of dealing with my enemies.


Alternatively:
Yes, he's evil. Do you have any idea how useful that is when I need certain... unfortunately neccesary... things done.
Won't work well with Good monarchs, but the neutral ones who have to juggle the needs of the many against the needs of the few may swim the gray waters.
I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
Or just have evil people that everyone knows are evil, but they are just too powerful, or too useful to the king (or both) for anyone to do anything about.

Excuse me, King, did you realise that the Arch-Duke is Evil?

Of course, you dunder head, but he is the only one who is capable of dealing with my enemies.


Alternatively:
Yes, he's evil. Do you have any idea how useful that is when I need certain... unfortuantely neccesary... things done.
Won't work well with Good monarchs, but the neutral ones who have to juggle the needs of the many against the needs of the few may swim the gray waters.



True there are just so many options.

I do like Orzels 90's version though.  We can all be the dark brooding anti-hero.

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Homogenising: Making vanilla in 31 different colours
If you hard code alignments into the game, then there will be evil people. Otherwise, if you design murder mysteries to revolve around neutral characters to avoid evil because of the problems it presents with spells like detect evil, then why have alignments or detect evil spells?

The same thing applies to recovery in dungeons, or any type of resource expenditure. There has to be ways to adjust the hard limits to fit the style of play. So instead of calling it the downtime module, it should be changed to resource managment module, because it effects mulitple aspects of the game from hit point, class ability or spell recovery, expenditure of wealth, creating items, gaining followers, creating kingdoms, research, etc. Because the most precious resource for any adventurer is time.
True there are just so many options.

I do like Orzels 90's version though.  We can all be the dark brooding anti-hero.


In some books, Batman is listed as LG.
Dark Brooding, or even unfortunate and tragic, don't require an alignment tag.
In most systems, a single crime of passion isn't enough to wrench your alignment immediately.
At which point, the obvious alignment choice for villain is, in fact, a red herring.
Sure he's a serial killer who chops people up with an axe... but he isn't the one who chopped this victim up with an axe.

I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.

Modularity should offer the flexibility to allow different playstyle and thats a good thing they're planning this way.

Wow it seems like a good year to be in Gen Con! Confrontation at Candlekeep interactive multitable experience the Devs playtested last week looks freakin cool, so is the Murder In Baldur's Gate Launch Weekend and so is the Sundering kicking with the Night in Dungeons & Dragons party sounds exciting! I wish i could be there!!!

PS Also really cool to include a section for designers note in Ghost of Dragonspear Castle!

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Personally I just can not believe that anyone is till trying to run a murder mystery with one evil person as the murderer.

What is this, the 70's show?



What about an evil advisor to the Duke?  Or any other single evil infiltrator of an organization?  Can't do it with detect evil spells unless you create some societal construct that makes it rude to cast detect spells on people without just cause.



Or just have evil people that everyone knows are evil, but they are just too powerful, or too useful to the king (or both) for anyone to do anything about.

Excuse me, King, did you realise that the Arch-Duke is Evil?

Of course, you dunder head, but he is the only one who is capable of dealing with my enemies.



Perhaps I didn't explain well enough.

Evil advisor to the King is a polymorphed Balor who wants to kill the King and take his place, turning the kingdom and all its inhabitants into one big sacrifice for Orcus that will allow the Prince of the Undead to become a God and possibly overthrow the celestial order.

Detect evil spell - Party casts spell.  Huge fight ensues.  Realm saved, but 60 typed pages of plot and intrigue written up by the DM is wasted.

Without detect evil spell - Party must work their way through hours of intriguing plot, and twisted schemes to determine the true identity of the advisor, and only then confront him to save the realm.  DMs hard work rewarded, and players have a more rewarding experience as well. 

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

OSR Fan? Our Big Announcement™ is here!

Please join our forums!

Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

If you hard code alignments into the game, then there will be evil people. Otherwise, if you design murder mysteries to revolve around neutral characters to avoid evil because of the problems it presents with spells like detect evil, then why have alignments or detect evil spells?



Or have alignment, but not make it hard-coded.  I like detection spells, just not alignment detection.  If you have the options of detect devil, and detect demon, but you're not sure which one is masquerading as the King's advisor you have to do a little leg work in the form of investigation before you memorize the correct version of the spell.

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

OSR Fan? Our Big Announcement™ is here!

Please join our forums!

Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

Personally I just can not believe that anyone is till trying to run a murder mystery with one evil person as the murderer.

What is this, the 70's show?



What about an evil advisor to the Duke?  Or any other single evil infiltrator of an organization?  Can't do it with detect evil spells unless you create some societal construct that makes it rude to cast detect spells on people without just cause.



Or just have evil people that everyone knows are evil, but they are just too powerful, or too useful to the king (or both) for anyone to do anything about.

Excuse me, King, did you realise that the Arch-Duke is Evil?

Of course, you dunder head, but he is the only one who is capable of dealing with my enemies.



Perhaps I didn't explain well enough.

Evil advisor to the King is a polymorphed Balor who wants to kill the King and take his place, turning the kingdom and all its inhabitants into one big sacrifice for Orcus that will allow the Prince of the Undead to become a God and possibly overthrow the celestial order.

Detect evil spell - Party casts spell.  Huge fight ensues.  Realm saved, but 60 typed pages of plot and intrigue written up by the DM is wasted.

Without detect evil spell - Party must work their way through hours of intriguing plot, and twisted schemes to determine the true identity of the advisor, and only then confront him to save the realm.  DMs hard work rewarded, and players have a more rewarding experience as well. 




yeah make the advisor not the demon.  give it even more layers make the balor someone they have not ever met, and have him running plots in more than one place.  have the party not only interact with one place he is pulling the strings have them second guessing everyone they are around trying to figure out who the big guy behind the grander manipulation is.  Basically read wheel of time you'll see the kinds of ideas I'm talking about.
yeah make the advisor not the demon.  give it even more layers make the balor someone they have not ever met, and have him running plots in more than one place.  have the party not only interact with one place he is pulling the strings have them second guessing everyone they are around trying to figure out who the big guy behind the grander manipulation is.  Basically read wheel of time you'll see the kinds of ideas I'm talking about.



The point is not to tell me to run the game the way you would, but to allow me to run it the way I want to.

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

OSR Fan? Our Big Announcement™ is here!

Please join our forums!

Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

Or just have evil people that everyone knows are evil, but they are just too powerful, or too useful to the king (or both) for anyone to do anything about.

Excuse me, King, did you realise that the Arch-Duke is Evil?

Of course, you dunder head, but he is the only one who is capable of dealing with my enemies.


Alternatively:
Yes, he's evil. Do you have any idea how useful that is when I need certain... unfortunately neccesary... things done.
Won't work well with Good monarchs, but the neutral ones who have to juggle the needs of the many against the needs of the few may swim the gray waters.



The party is talking with a group of nobles and the king trying to find out who the murderer is.

The Cleric casts detect evil.

Cleric "Oh, wow...oh you guys aren't going to like this."
Paladin "What?"
Cleric "Um... everyone is detecting as evil, mostly backstabbing and lies. Even the Rogue in the party."
Paladin "Time to smite!"

Yeah...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
yeah make the advisor not the demon.  give it even more layers make the balor someone they have not ever met, and have him running plots in more than one place.  have the party not only interact with one place he is pulling the strings have them second guessing everyone they are around trying to figure out who the big guy behind the grander manipulation is.  Basically read wheel of time you'll see the kinds of ideas I'm talking about.



The point is not to tell me to run the game the way you would, but to allow me to run it the way I want to.


'

I say putting the balor in the room is a poor choice given the balor could and would just kill the party.  A human acting in his stead might not and therefore allow for the party to advance through a story line. 
At this point, i belive they need to release a few adventures with different modules attached.

A dungeon crawl adventure, an intruige adventure, and a kingdom adventure.  They should try out some pacing rules.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The party is talking with a group of nobles and the king trying to find out who the murderer is.

The Cleric casts detect evil.

Cleric "Oh, wow...oh you guys aren't going to like this."
Paladin "What?"
Cleric "Um... everyone is detecting as evil, mostly backstabbing and lies. Even the Rogue in the party."
Paladin "Time to smite!"

Yeah...


And this is why some nations pass laws respecting privacy...
I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
yeah make the advisor not the demon.  give it even more layers make the balor someone they have not ever met, and have him running plots in more than one place.  have the party not only interact with one place he is pulling the strings have them second guessing everyone they are around trying to figure out who the big guy behind the grander manipulation is.  Basically read wheel of time you'll see the kinds of ideas I'm talking about.



The point is not to tell me to run the game the way you would, but to allow me to run it the way I want to.


'

I say putting the balor in the room is a poor choice given the balor could and would just kill the party.  A human acting in his stead might not and therefore allow for the party to advance through a story line. 



The example was extreme to make a point about detect alignment spells.  You can replace the Balor with an evil aligned minion working for the Balor.  The same plot busting occurs, except rather than killing the NPC outright the part also uses mind-reading, or divination spells to determine the primary villan is a Balor and where to find him.

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

OSR Fan? Our Big Announcement™ is here!

Please join our forums!

Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

yeah make the advisor not the demon.  give it even more layers make the balor someone they have not ever met, and have him running plots in more than one place.  have the party not only interact with one place he is pulling the strings have them second guessing everyone they are around trying to figure out who the big guy behind the grander manipulation is.  Basically read wheel of time you'll see the kinds of ideas I'm talking about.



The point is not to tell me to run the game the way you would, but to allow me to run it the way I want to.


'

I say putting the balor in the room is a poor choice given the balor could and would just kill the party.  A human acting in his stead might not and therefore allow for the party to advance through a story line. 



The example was extreme to make a point about detect alignment spells.  You can replace the Balor with an evil aligned minion working for the Balor.  The same plot busting occurs, except rather than killing the NPC outright the part also uses mind-reading, or divination spells to determine the primary villan is a Balor and where to find him.




See that's totally the fault right there the fact that it worked on people.  THat's why I am diggin the 5e method of detecting undead and demons and devils and stuff.  that evil human advisor though won't be shown to be evil till the DM decides to make it happen.
See that's totally the fault right there the fact that it worked on people.  THat's why I am diggin the 5e method of detecting undead and demons and devils and stuff.  that evil human advisor though won't be shown to be evil till the DM decides to make it happen.



Exactly the point I am making.  In the past, as a DM, I simply changed the spell titles and descriptions to detect demon, detect dragon, etc.  As a game designer/adventure writer the issue is a bit more sticky.  You can't tell DMs to change the way they have been running their game, if they have always had detect evil, just because you want to tell a mystery story with a murder plot.  Games with detect evil make you jump through all kinds of hoops to pull off simple genre appropriate tales.  You have to give the assassin a ring of undetectable alignment or some such device, and then deal with the fallout of players who think that is taking part of their character's power away.  The simpler solution is to limit the power or utility of the spells in the first place.

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

OSR Fan? Our Big Announcement™ is here!

Please join our forums!

Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

See that's totally the fault right there the fact that it worked on people.  THat's why I am diggin the 5e method of detecting undead and demons and devils and stuff.  that evil human advisor though won't be shown to be evil till the DM decides to make it happen.



Exactly the point I am making.  In the past, as a DM, I simply changed the spell titles and descriptions to detect demon, detect dragon, etc.  As a game designer/adventure writer the issue is a bit more sticky.  You can't tell DMs to change the way they have been running their game, if they have always had detect evil, just because you want to tell a mystery story with a murder plot.  Games with detect evil make you jump through all kinds of hoops to pull off simple genre appropriate tales.  You have to give the assassin a ring of undetectable alignment or some such device, and then deal with the fallout of players who think that is taking part of their character's power away.  The simpler solution is to limit the power of the spells in the first place.




In my groups its generally acceptable to give the no one's clean answer.  No one in that room comes up smelling like roses save for maybe the paladin, and even that may be questionable.