MtGo - for a mac????

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Hello guys, do you know if Wizards will finally kick themselves in the butt and will release the Mac version? I've been waiting for it for years and still nothing. What is the holdup or is it simply laziness?
Neither the current version or the current beta are designed for macs, and there is no current plans to make a mac version.
This is mainly due to them using windows based data bases and other programs that macs can't use.

However I hear that there are several ways to get windows to work on a mac and you can then play mtgo that way.

I've bought the cards and made a deck Now how do I win at this?

You have a very long wait ahead of you.
Well, I know that there are ways to put windows on my mac but I am not going to do it just for MtGo. It's simply as if a company can't support that platform then I don't see a reason to support that company. 
Until there is a mac version then I'm sorry but I won't be their customer.

Yes, you may think its strange but they do have the resources and time to do it. It's just simply a laziness on their part which I refuse to support.

Shame on them especially at this time when Mac is a common platform and is overtaking windows in terms of growth.  
Thank you though for your time and response. I appreciate that.
Well, I know that there are ways to put windows on my mac but I am not going to do it just for MtGo. It's simply as if a company can't support that platform then I don't see a reason to support that company. 
Until there is a mac version then I'm sorry but I won't be their customer.

Yes, you may think its strange but they do have the resources and time to do it. It's just simply a laziness on their part which I refuse to support.

Shame on them especially at this time when Mac is a common platform and is overtaking windows in terms of growth.  


It is related to laziness in a way... I mean they aren't motivated because there is no profit in it for them since they would have to either build a mac client from scratch or tear up what they've done so far and start over to get a multiplatform client working. Somehow I don't think your protest will be effective though I do encourage you to continue to ask for mac development since that is something they do listen to even if they aren't acting on it.

Winter.Wolf

Well, if we reach a stage that everything is motivated only by money then we are all doomed. Yes, the money aspect must be considered but in this case its support for your fans/customers. If everyone acts like me (won't support the company if the company doesn't support us) then they will have to rethink their strategy. At the end of the day its the customers that hold the power but its hard to prove it when the voice is not so loud.

And as some companies learned, sometimes it might be too late to act on certain things as people will just simply go next door where they feel like they are appreciated.

So yeah, I will ask but I won't be giving them any money until there is something that I would like to see. I wanted to buy an iPad and play with my friend on a PC - apparently not possible.
I wanted to get Mac version so I can play with my PC friend - not possible. Result? I am disappointed but will not buy anything until proper support is there. If not then there is one less customer for them.

I remember playing MtG 17 years ago and loved it. I started with 4th edition and had a blast until it became money machine and new cards were released whilst old ones were banned from tournaments. So I left and thought I would come back now to play with friends just for fun. (not as crazy as before - almost every day )) )
Well, no support = no fun. Shame 
Well, if we reach a stage that everything is motivated only by money then we are all doomed. Yes, the money aspect must be considered but in this case its support for your fans/customers. If everyone acts like me (won't support the company if the company doesn't support us) then they will have to rethink their strategy. At the end of the day its the customers that hold the power but its hard to prove it when the voice is not so loud.

And as some companies learned, sometimes it might be too late to act on certain things as people will just simply go next door where they feel like they are appreciated.

So yeah, I will ask but I won't be giving them any money until there is something that I would like to see. I wanted to buy an iPad and play with my friend on a PC - apparently not possible.
I wanted to get Mac version so I can play with my PC friend - not possible. Result? I am disappointed but will not buy anything until proper support is there. If not then there is one less customer for them.

I remember playing MtG 17 years ago and loved it. I started with 4th edition and had a blast until it became money machine and new cards were released whilst old ones were banned from tournaments. So I left and thought I would come back now to play with friends just for fun. (not as crazy as before - almost every day )) )
Well, no support = no fun. Shame 


Keep in mind two things.
a) You are in the minority as a mac owner. This unfortunately means most players will not be all that sympathetic to your complaint. Especially considering that there is much to be fixed/added to the client as it is. Magic already has a built-in draw so your boycott will only hurt you.
b) Making demands rather than asking in a positive manner will not improve your chances. And making an ultimatum out of your need does not serve you or those who are in your boat. So you wont buy any product? Unfortunately this doesn't have much power as a threat as thousands of others are buying product anyway.

I am not trying to harsh your buzz but this is where it is at. And it IS a shame.

Winter.Wolf

Well, I know that there are ways to put windows on my mac but I am not going to do it just for MtGo.

I did and have been happily playing MtGO for years now.
Compared to the amount of money it would cost Wizards to develop a Mac client, they could buy all of their current Mac users a Windows license and VM software and still have oodles of money left over.
Well, if we reach a stage that everything is motivated only by money then we are all doomed. Yes, the money aspect must be considered but in this case its support for your fans/customers. If everyone acts like me (won't support the company if the company doesn't support us) then they will have to rethink their strategy. At the end of the day its the customers that hold the power but its hard to prove it when the voice is not so loud.

And as some companies learned, sometimes it might be too late to act on certain things as people will just simply go next door where they feel like they are appreciated.

So yeah, I will ask but I won't be giving them any money until there is something that I would like to see. I wanted to buy an iPad and play with my friend on a PC - apparently not possible.
I wanted to get Mac version so I can play with my PC friend - not possible. Result? I am disappointed but will not buy anything until proper support is there. If not then there is one less customer for them.

I remember playing MtG 17 years ago and loved it. I started with 4th edition and had a blast until it became money machine and new cards were released whilst old ones were banned from tournaments. So I left and thought I would come back now to play with friends just for fun. (not as crazy as before - almost every day )) )
Well, no support = no fun. Shame 


Keep in mind two things.
a) You are in the minority as a mac owner. This unfortunately means most players will not be all that sympathetic to your complaint. Especially considering that there is much to be fixed/added to the client as it is. Magic already has a built-in draw so your boycott will only hurt you.
b) Making demands rather than asking in a positive manner will not improve your chances. And making an ultimatum out of your need does not serve you or those who are in your boat. So you wont buy any product? Unfortunately this doesn't have much power as a threat as thousands of others are buying product anyway.

I am not trying to harsh your buzz but this is where it is at. And it IS a shame.



I know its a pain to dual boot windows on top of OSX, but I think if your going to be into MTG, or MTGO specifically, its one of those things your simply going to have to afford, (if its worth it to you) Simply on the grounds of look how much money you will end up pumping into MTGO at the end of its relevence to you. 

I am actually very welcome being able to use VM ware, and boot Windows into Unity mode. I would much rather use OSX as my default operating system, but having windows there just in case, is invaluable to me. Not just for MTGO, but for a variety of things. I think Mac users take advantage of the fact that we are a minority, and not by any natural means, we choose to do so. The same applies to windows only folks as well. Sometimes theres just an awesome peice of software that is Mac only, and windows users like my close friends, have no equivilant, that can be just as frustrating especially when you are the majority, and your used to everything working. I think OSX developers make some of the best software out there, in terms of usability, design, and features. I think they have more heart into what they code, wheras Windows developers aren't so concerned about such things, some are, but most aren't, its not in the Windows community culture to make something look good, just function. 

As for WotC, they don't need to cater to such a small market, and I can understand that. I wouldn't want to either if I was in their shoes, and yet it comes down to money because first and foremost, and I think a lot of people forget this, even Mac users. They ARE a buisness. Don't get it twisted, they might love their customers, they might have a culture that revolves around keeping their customers happy, BUT that **** can stop as soon as it becomes a burden to their bottom line. You can't fall in love with a company, I know a lot of Mac users are vehemently pro-Apple, we like to defend them whenever possible, but its not the Company, your supposed to love. Its not real, its an entity, it isn't a feeling thing. The community, the people who surround the products you love, thats what is important. It isn't WotC, that I care about, its the game, its the unity when we play, its the people on this forum that we get to chat with, become friends with, learn from and move foreward with. 

That all being said, I have no idea why I went on that tirade, but look into VMware Fusion, its awesome. 

Good points here all around. It's true that Mac is a smaller market than Windows at the current time, but it's also true that Windows is a dying platform. With the speed of Wizards' software development, we might be stuck with MTGO 4 for the next 10 years. Can you predict Windows' market share in 10 years? It's very much an unknown.

IMHO, Wizards made a mistake by tying their future client to a dying platform.

Edit: The best way to run MTGO on Mac is with Parallels (slightly better than VMware IMHO). Of course you can boot Windows natively w/ BootCamp, but then you're stuck in Windows... yuck.
I've been quite happy using Parallels on my Mac. I have no idea how it compares to VMware, but I have no reason to be interested in researching the differences.
Good points here all around. It's true that Mac is a smaller market than Windows at the current time, but it's also true that Windows is a dying platform. With the speed of Wizards' software development, we might be stuck with MTGO 4 for the next 10 years. Can you predict Windows' market share in 10 years? It's very much an unknown.

IMHO, Wizards made a mistake by tying their future client to a dying platform.

Edit: The best way to run MTGO on Mac is with Parallels (slightly better than VMware IMHO). Of course you can boot Windows natively w/ BootCamp, but then you're stuck in Windows... yuck.



Really? I never really dipped into Parallels, is it a performance thing? or?
Dying platform huh? lol. That has been the mac user's pipe dream for decades and will be for decades to come. As much as windows bites and it does I don't see it going anywhere soon.

Winter.Wolf

Allow me to chime in as a Mac fanboy, a video game developer and a wizard devotee.

First of all, I'm sure this thread is in danger of being locked as a repeat if someone can dig up the many older threads where it has been discussed multiple times.

So, as a Mac user it's definitely annoying to have to install parallels (yes, definitively better, I've used both) and windows xp (your best bet) just to play MTGO. I'm on that boat and I can't say I really use the windows partition on my macs for anything else.

However, given the currently poor state of the dev team that works MTGO, it's not very realistic to expect them to be working on a Mac port. They have a small team and a great deal to improve on the existing clients. And yes, it's mainly about the money because expanding to a different platform can only be about money since its not really making the game better nor is it affecting a lot of people (relatively speaking).

Having said that, I do agree that windows is an OS that is rapidly being overtaken in their market share, not by Mac OS X, but by Android and iOS.

Other games that have the potential to steal considerable mindshare from MTGO are embracing these emerging platforms and that's why I believe it makes important financial sense to start making a multiplatform client (that includes mac os x) NOW rather than try to react in 2-3 years when it's clear things are changing.
For a great source of information on the Pauper format check out Pauper's Cage!
Allow me to chime in as a Mac fanboy, a video game developer and a wizard devotee. First of all, I'm sure this thread is in danger of being locked as a repeat if someone can dig up the many older threads where it has been discussed multiple times. So, as a Mac user it's definitely annoying to have to install parallels (yes, definitively better, I've used both) and windows xp (your best bet) just to play MTGO. I'm on that boat and I can't say I really use the windows partition on my macs for anything else. However, given the currently poor state of the dev team that works MTGO, it's not very realistic to expect them to be working on a Mac port. They have a small team and a great deal to improve on the existing clients. And yes, it's mainly about the money because expanding to a different platform can only be about money since its not really making the game better nor is it affecting a lot of people (relatively speaking). Having said that, I do agree that windows is an OS that is rapidly being overtaken in their market share, not by Mac OS X, but by Android and iOS. Other games that have the potential to steal considerable mindshare from MTGO are embracing these emerging platforms and that's why I believe it makes important financial sense to start making a multiplatform client (that includes mac os x) NOW rather than try to react in 2-3 years when it's clear things are changing.



I think thats eventually their endgame with DotP is to create a all in one experiance. It would be nice if I could grab my iPad, lay out on the couch and play a game on MTGO. At some points these two games will merge, it may take a few years, but I think thats the future of MTGO. They should have a PC/Mac client, always, but Tablet makes so much sense, its not like you do much in game except for dragging and tapping cards. easily facilitated by the touch screen experiance.
MTGO isn't going to be made for the Mac any time soon, if ever. 

I agree with the other posters that it will move into another form for mobile devices or something web-based someday.  But at WOTC's current pace with technology, it will be a long time coming.
I don't see why they wouldn't make a mac client, mac users are the demographic that have more money than sense :P

Seriously though, the idea that mtgo clients have to be tied to certain proprietary systems is rubbish. It's purely choice that it's ended up this way. If wotc stopped tying themselves to .net or wpf then they'd be free to create clients for all popular platforms. As I understand it, most of the game is happening on the server end, so the client should be capable of being very thin in terms of functionality, just the GUI elements. They should behave more like software gaming houses, support all major platforms, put out an evolution of the client at least once a year.

Even better, if they published the server interface and allowed third party clients then the internet would rapidly give us better clients. 
actually, playing mtgo on my ipad over Splashtop 2 isnt half bad. kinda sweet actually
I assure you that they want to reach out to the other platforms to increase revenue.player base. My guess is that with the new client and or perhaps newer clients after that, they will be looking at cross platform and it's feasibility. I can only fathom how difficult it would be to create a system of structure for the multiple platform programming. If they dont this, it is a loss for us and their business.

As far as playing on a MAC goes. I run a virtual machine with windows xp that runs the beta client so-so, can't load up the normal client though. It works good enough for me while at work but it is not a clean experieince. I also have dual booting enabled (windows 7) on a separate paritition that works like a charm.
Even better, if they published the server interface and allowed third party clients then the internet would rapidly give us better clients. 


Anyone remember Milibot? The author reverse engineered the mtgo server interface and wrote a trading client that was faster and more resilient than other bots. Unfortunately this broke the CoC. It does illustrate that third party clients are feasible and could be a useful approach to advancing the product.
I've removed content from this thread. Promoting illegal activity is a violation of the Code of Conduct

You can review the Code of Conduct here: company.wizards.com/conduct

Just come play hex, theyll have mac and tablets aswell ,-) also they dont poop on their customers.
Well, I know that there are ways to put windows on my mac but I am not going to do it just for MtGo. It's simply as if a company can't support that platform then I don't see a reason to support that company. 
Until there is a mac version then I'm sorry but I won't be their customer.

Yes, you may think its strange but they do have the resources and time to do it. It's just simply a laziness on their part which I refuse to support.

Shame on them especially at this time when Mac is a common platform and is overtaking windows in terms of growth.  


Windows still has 90+% market share. Mac is at 7%. Assuming a smooth transition to the MTG population that is still only 7%. And of those at least some still play MTGO anyway. My guess is you are in the minority of the minority. I also would love to know how you know they have the time and resources to produce a workable mac client. Claiming it to be purely laziness on their point just wants me to claim your issue to be related to stubborness and laziness on your part.

Good points here all around. It's true that Mac is a smaller market than Windows at the current time, but it's also true that Windows is a dying platform. With the speed of Wizards' software development, we might be stuck with MTGO 4 for the next 10 years. Can you predict Windows' market share in 10 years? It's very much an unknown.

IMHO, Wizards made a mistake by tying their future client to a dying platform.

Edit: The best way to run MTGO on Mac is with Parallels (slightly better than VMware IMHO). Of course you can boot Windows natively w/ BootCamp, but then you're stuck in Windows... yuck.


As I said Windows is at 90+% desktop share, how exactly is it a "dying platform"? Can you predict the market share for any OS in 10 years? They are going for the OS that currently has the largest share by a wide wide wide margin.

If you want to push WotC to seriously consider a Mac client you should give actual reasons that are valid from a business prespective. Using hyperbole and personal annecdotes/threats is a good way to have your complaint taken less seriously.

Myths of Theros: Part 1, Part 2, Born of the Gods Myths

Beta Client, "Shiny", V4.0 tutorial

Momir Basic Primer

xger - I'm sorry but a company this size and revenue (google wotc revenue) can afford a client for mac. There is no excuse for that.
We see smaller and way less profitable companies that still support mac even if at slower pace than pc. Those companies understand that these days people may not only be on PC and having to "force" them to go parallels and "waste" more money on Win licence etc. is just not a viable solution. Over the last few years mac has become more popular choice and when pc market is slowing down the same cannot be said about mac platform. So yes, it is pure "laziness" or just "bad" management choices not to support such a popular platform. Yes, Windows can dominate statistics but that doesn't mean much in the end as those numbers are not for gamers only. Take Blizzard for example - they support mac and PC and I'm sure that if they have provided their numbers there would be more than 7% user base. As a mac user I always value Blizzard very high. The reason is that they value their players on a mac even if they are not majority. And if a company like Blizzard can do something like that with way smaller revenue than WotC then I see no reason for WotC to slack around.  
Another issue is iPad - why can't they provide a system that would allow multi platform support so me being on an iPad can play with a friend on a PC?

So I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. I believe that they have the resources, time and people to create a client that will be multiplatform and would allow everyone to play with everybody. Just the way people would prefer. As someone mentioned, going with an iPad on the sofa and play the game with others would be the perfect way. I don't see why it is still "years away". In fact it was already late "yesterday".

I see the online MtG as simply slow development with not too much attention. Its a shame as they can do a stellar job if they wanted to.


The question is - Why don't they want to? They try to perfect their cards with every tiny little artwork to look great - why can't the same level of detail come to other part of this game? 



Well, I know that there are ways to put windows on my mac but I am not going to do it just for MtGo. It's simply as if a company can't support that platform then I don't see a reason to support that company. 
Until there is a mac version then I'm sorry but I won't be their customer.

Yes, you may think its strange but they do have the resources and time to do it. It's just simply a laziness on their part which I refuse to support.

Shame on them especially at this time when Mac is a common platform and is overtaking windows in terms of growth.  


Windows still has 90+% market share. Mac is at 7%. Assuming a smooth transition to the MTG population that is still only 7%. And of those at least some still play MTGO anyway. My guess is you are in the minority of the minority. I also would love to know how you know they have the time and resources to produce a workable mac client. Claiming it to be purely laziness on their point just wants me to claim your issue to be related to stubborness and laziness on your part.

Good points here all around. It's true that Mac is a smaller market than Windows at the current time, but it's also true that Windows is a dying platform. With the speed of Wizards' software development, we might be stuck with MTGO 4 for the next 10 years. Can you predict Windows' market share in 10 years? It's very much an unknown.

IMHO, Wizards made a mistake by tying their future client to a dying platform.

Edit: The best way to run MTGO on Mac is with Parallels (slightly better than VMware IMHO). Of course you can boot Windows natively w/ BootCamp, but then you're stuck in Windows... yuck.


As I said Windows is at 90+% desktop share, how exactly is it a "dying platform"? Can you predict the market share for any OS in 10 years? They are going for the OS that currently has the largest share by a wide wide wide margin.

If you want to push WotC to seriously consider a Mac client you should give actual reasons that are valid from a business prespective. Using hyperbole and personal annecdotes/threats is a good way to have your complaint taken less seriously.



You are seriously suggesting that Activision/Blizzard is making less revenue than Wotc?!
Alright, I'll bite and go down the rabbit hole:

xger - I'm sorry but a company this size and revenue (google wotc revenue) can afford a client for mac.
So I did goodle that. And Wizards of the Coast revenue. No where in the first page of either was there concrete recent numbers. Why are you in the position to decide what company revenue and size means they can "afford" a mac client?
There is no excuse for that.

Also simply being able to "afford" one is very different than one making business sense. If they have (please realize this is me making up numbers to prove a point) the 10 million dollars it will cost upfront to develope an acceptable product and the extra 1 million a year it will take to keep it working but the added platform only brings in 750K a year it is a loss and not in the company's interest. They are a business, their job is to make money. Can you conclusively prove that adding a Mac client will make up the cost?
We see smaller and way less profitable companies that still support mac even if at slower pace than pc. Those companies understand that these days people may not only be on PC and having to "force" them to go parallels and "waste" more money on Win licence etc. is just not a viable solution.

I think you are essentially reversing the reasoning here. The small companies do not have an installed customer base the same size and thus every next customer is better for long term health in a lot of situations. Wizards has a huge base already to draw from, the cost of them acquiring the mac customer may simply be higher than the gain long term. 
Over the last few years mac has become more popular choice and when pc market is slowing down the same cannot be said about mac platform.

I love looking up facts. Here is 2010 desktop market share, 2011, 2012, and estimated 2013. 5.25%, 5.87%, 6.81%, and 7.02%
respectively for Mac market share. If you take the most generous estimate (using the 5.87-6.81 jump) in 20 years Macs would be 25.1% of the market, just barely over a quarter. So clearly Mac is the "more popular choice". That last setence was sarcasm.
So yes, it is pure "laziness" or just "bad" management choices not to support such a popular platform. Yes, Windows can dominate statistics but that doesn't mean much in the end as those numbers are not for gamers only.

Here again you assume you know enough about WotC to call it pure laziness or bad management. Instead of rattling off opinions to make your case use facts. Pull the revnues and demonstrate it makes business sense for WotC. As for stats including non-gamers, that fact more than likely works in my favor as opposed to yours. Gamers I would guess are far more likely to use Windows considering many games are windows only. Gamers I would guess are also more likely to be willing to dual boot than the average person.
Take Blizzard for example - they support mac and PC and I'm sure that if they have provided their numbers there would be more than 7% user base. As a mac user I always value Blizzard very high. The reason is that they value their players on a mac even if they are not majority. And if a company like Blizzard can do something like that with way smaller revenue than WotC then I see no reason for WotC to slack around.  
Another issue is iPad - why can't they provide a system that would allow multi platform support so me being on an iPad can play with a friend on a PC?

WoW has what, 8 million subsribers at the moment? Being generous at $13 a month per (so assuming all on the 6-month plan) that's $104 million a month from WoW subs alone. $1.2 billion a year. Hasbro (the parent company of WotC) had $663 million in 1st quarter in revenue or ~2.7 billion for the year. For all of hasbro. Wow subs, just one part of one part of one part of Activision-Blizzard pulls in $1.2 billion. In short WotC revenue is very not likely higher than Activsion-Blizzard.

So I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. I believe that they have the resources, time and people to create a client that will be multiplatform and would allow everyone to play with everybody. Just the way people would prefer. As someone mentioned, going with an iPad on the sofa and play the game with others would be the perfect way. I don't see why it is still "years away". In fact it was already late "yesterday".

You've presented nothing to show that they have the resources to do this, and nothing to show that it actually would make business sense. Being late "yesterday" is simply your opinion.
I see the online MtG as simply slow development with not too much attention. Its a shame as they can do a stellar job if they wanted to.


The question is - Why don't they want to? They try to perfect their cards with every tiny little artwork to look great - why can't the same level of detail come to other part of this game? 


Paper is the focus, although there are strides to further integrate the two. They are also currently putting a lot of resources into the client, just not a mac one.

Myths of Theros: Part 1, Part 2, Born of the Gods Myths

Beta Client, "Shiny", V4.0 tutorial

Momir Basic Primer

Alright xger,

lets all take it the way you intend or defend.

-company that size can't afford mac client
-the money from mac users "may" not validate the investment
-regardless of revenue - we won't bother with mac as its not a "cash cow" for us
-money IS the CENTER of everything!

Well, if we take it that way and lets assume that is the case. What are we gonna get?

Few possible scenarios but the clever ones will treat it this way - no mac user will want to support that company or at least will hesitate to do so.
Now lets say that the mac platform will indeed grow and will indeed spread. Wouldn't that also increase the base of the clients that are not happy with the company and will not be willing to invest if that was the case? Where does one draw the line?

Let me ask you a different question.

When you buy a bike and you use it a lot but from time to time you need little help in the store to either adjust one screw or just to advise you something. Do you expect the store to charge you for such a simple service? Would you be upset if they told you that they do not support after sale support as they don't have the "money incentive" from it? 
This is where we are at. If everythign is motivated by money and there is no "halo" effect then we are essentially doomed as everything will come at a price. That means, EVERYTHING! There will be no freebie in your local store, no customer service advice or even help - everything will be charged so the company can make money - as you have mentioned.
Is that what you want?

How can WotC predict their customer mac base and if its worth it to make a mac client if they don't have one? Where is the date from for them to make that call? Please tell me how you justify that argument when WotC has no data to pull from?
And please ,don't tell me that it is an issue that is not so hot as when i google it I get a lot of people requesting Mac client for this game. So, where is the reason NOT to create a version for Mac?
Let me help you here. WotC can't predict sales based on nonexisting data. I suspect that porting a client to a mac platform is a matter of few thousands $ which is something that could easily see return with all the people requesting it. BUT lets not forget those that are on paralells and are actually using Mac! Those are already investing in the company's pool of money and those should be counted as well as they will definitely appreciate native client.

Now, you can play the numbers game with me and perhaps you will beat me with it but it won't change the fact that WotC can port the game and still justify it. The customer loyalty and validation is far more important and once you start neglecting that you are playing a dangerous games.

And we can also guess this - Yes, no one can predict OS in 10 years but we can all predict that MS is going down at the moment. There is lack of innovation and drive and that is what Mac & Linux benefit from. I would personally love mac vs pc to be 50% each as that would motivate each other for more innovation but that is few years away.  
Something tells me that wizards can stand to lose the 5 people world wide that you represent.  That population is mac users, who MTG, want to play magic online, refuse to put in any effort themselves to actual play online, and then are willing to threaten to quit.  Maybe you are the one person in the world who actually would quit though?

How hard is it to get magic online, and basically 99% of all programs in the world, to run on your mac?  I would have to imagine that the time you spent complaining in this thread you could of had it working already.

The only platform they really need to look at is tablets.  Though they are a long way from that.

I am also curious, why is it you use a mac to start with?
Something tells me that wizards can stand to lose the 5 people world wide that you represent.  That population is mac users, who MTG, want to play magic online, refuse to put in any effort themselves to actual play online, and then are willing to threaten to quit.  Maybe you are the one person in the world who actually would quit though?

How hard is it to get magic online, and basically 99% of all programs in the world, to run on your mac?  I would have to imagine that the time you spent complaining in this thread you could of had it working already.

The only platform they really need to look at is tablets.  Though they are a long way from that.

I am also curious, why is it you use a mac to start with?




Can I ask you, please? Are you willing to buy me a licence of windows so I can get parallels? Is that the "time" you are talkign about?

Well, if we take it that way and lets assume that is the case. What are we gonna get?

Few possible scenarios but the clever ones will treat it this way - no mac user will want to support that company or at least will hesitate to do so.

I've been a Mac user since way before MtGO (the Macintosh II was the first one I personally owned). When MtGO came out, I bought a cheap Windows laptop just so that I could play. I was quite happy when I finally upgraded my Mac to one that was Intel-based (a Mac Pro) so that I could ditch the Windows laptop.

The only thing I hesitated on was when the original beta ended and MODO was released: I had to start paying for cards. I never thought they'd be successful selling packs at MSRP.
I suspect that porting a client to a mac platform is a matter of few thousands $ which is something that could easily see return with all the people requesting it. BUT lets not forget those that are on paralells and are actually using Mac!

Statements like this make me suspect you don't have a lot of software development experience or don't understand the technology used by the current client. They've struggled for years to "upgrade" the current client, keeping the same OS platform. Porting it to MacOS would likely take them decades.
Hey Gloor, while I agree with your sentiment, I think you are indeed misguided in many of your thoughts.

I too believe it would definitely be a better idea to support multiple platforms than not. If I were a suit at Hasbro I would put hard work into making market research and getting the numbers to show that it is worth spending the millions of dollars it would take to create a system from scratch that would support multiple platforms and to add enough people to the team to create a client with a modern, intuitive UI and innovative gameplay elements that added to the experience on to of the game of magic (like what hex us doing).

However, it's much easier to post a rant on a forum than to make a multi-million dollar investment like the one that is required and frankly I wouldn't be surprised that they haven't done it, even though I think its wrong not to.

Writing a post demanding a Mac port and calling wizards lazy for not doing so is not going to get you anywhere though, because you are not showing knowledge of how software development and businesses work, even though you have the right idea.

They can't, for example, just spend a few thousands of dollars to make a Mac port. Their existing client and server are based of a windows only framework so they would have to build absolutely everything from scratch to get anything remotely useful on the Mac. That requires time and money. To give you an idea, the teams that work on MMOs like WoW or the Star Wars MMOs have hundreds of developers working on them. I believe MTGO has a team of about 10-20 and this is why they don't get much done. For this to change, somebody has to decide to put considerably more money into it and that somebody will get fired if that money is lost or doesn't make enough money. They have kids and families to maintain so if they are not 100% sure it's worthwhile they won't do it. It's not just laziness, it's incredibly complex.
For a great source of information on the Pauper format check out Pauper's Cage!
Can I ask you, please? Are you willing to buy me a licence of windows so I can get parallels? Is that the "time" you are talkign about?





A quick google search showed one for about $60.  I don't know how reliable it is, or how average of a cost this is so will have to leave that price point to others who use it.

I would immagine if you are going to bring enough income to wizards to offset the cost of them bringing magic online to you then that is a drop in the bucket.  Also considering how macs seem to pretty much just double the price of a PC with the same specs it should also not be much of an issue if you want to keep buying macs instead of PCs for whatever reason.

Though I would gladly make you a deal of spending that much for your personal choice of Mac over PC, if you are willing to spend whatever the cost of a personal choice of mine has/will cost me.  Since you get to choose your own then I should also get to choose my own.

Can other mac users confirm this is a valid price?  Are there free alternatives?
Further down we go...
Alright xger,

lets all take it the way you intend or defend.

-company that size can't afford mac client
-the money from mac users "may" not validate the investment
-regardless of revenue - we won't bother with mac as its not a "cash cow" for us
-money IS the CENTER of everything!

They are a business. Money is the center. Building client loyalty, giving fans stuff, all of that goes into the money equation. They do things to build loyalty so we will spend more money. Some things simply will not reap the benefits to justify the costs. If your argument is that they should do it even if it loses them money, how far do you take that? They could build a lot of loyalty by sending everyone a case of RTR but the cost would be sky high. If they keep doing things just because you or someone else thinks they should they will go out of business.

Well, if we take it that way and lets assume that is the case. What are we gonna get?

Few possible scenarios but the clever ones will treat it this way - no mac user will want to support that company or at least will hesitate to do so.
Now lets say that the mac platform will indeed grow and will indeed spread. Wouldn't that also increase the base of the clients that are not happy with the company and will not be willing to invest if that was the case? Where does one draw the line?

Clearly there are plenty of mac users who do support the company and for instance, pcjr in this thread seems to express that his hesitation came from digital cards not from distrust because they don't have a mac client. Your also saying you haven't invested in MTGO yet you are somehow owed the mac client?

Let me ask you a different question.

When you buy a bike and you use it a lot but from time to time you need little help in the store to either adjust one screw or just to advise you something. Do you expect the store to charge you for such a simple service? Would you be upset if they told you that they do not support after sale support as they don't have the "money incentive" from it? 

This is a really bad example for multiple reasons. First in this scenario the person in question already spent money at the store. You have not spent money on MTGO and yet are demanding something. Next, adjusting the screw or getting advice are an illusion of being free. The cost of those services is worked into the cost of all the product they sell. Last, there is a money incentive, keeping you coming back. You haven't started MTGO so you cannot come back yet.

This is where we are at. If everythign is motivated by money and there is no "halo" effect then we are essentially doomed as everything will come at a price. That means, EVERYTHING! There will be no freebie in your local store, no customer service advice or even help - everything will be charged so the company can make money - as you have mentioned.
Is that what you want?

Hate to burst your bubble but this is already how the real world works. "Freebies" from businesses are not actually free. Plenty of studies have shown that by giving something away for "free" customers will spend much more than they would have otherwise. All of the freebies are also built into the long term cost model. This is the way the world works, simple as that.

How can WotC predict their customer mac base and if its worth it to make a mac client if they don't have one? Where is the date from for them to make that call? Please tell me how you justify that argument when WotC has no data to pull from?
And please ,don't tell me that it is an issue that is not so hot as when i google it I get a lot of people requesting Mac client for this game. So, where is the reason NOT to create a version for Mac?

So your argument is that WotC has the resources to make a mac client yet they would not have the resources to conduct the research into whether it makes business sense? It's actually fairly simply to get some estimates of this "non-existent" data. During normal MtG surveys: "Do you play MTGO?" "If no, is it solely because there is no mac client?" Hey look I supposedly defied realty and found something that doesn't exist!
 
Let me help you here. WotC can't predict sales based on nonexisting data. I suspect that porting a client to a mac platform is a matter of few thousands $ which is something that could easily see return with all the people requesting it. BUT lets not forget those that are on paralells and are actually using Mac! Those are already investing in the company's pool of money and those should be counted as well as they will definitely appreciate native client.

First, as others have pointed out, a few thousand wouldn't even get you remotely close to a Mac client. That wouldn't even cover the salary of a single dev for a month. Not to mention the different server architecture they would need, the training needed for customer service reps, the training for techinical staff, the training for the QA team, the expansion of the QA team, and many other factors I have not listed. As for those on Macs already playing: would making a native mac client make them spend more short medium or long term? If not they do not really count.

Now, you can play the numbers game with me and perhaps you will beat me with it but it won't change the fact that WotC can port the game and still justify it. The customer loyalty and validation is far more important and once you start neglecting that you are playing a dangerous games.

Is it techanically possible to make a port? Yes. Does it make business sense to? At the moment that answer is a resounding no. If it made sense overall it would be happening. Will it happen in the future? Don't have an answer, I misplaced my divining rod, sorry.

And we can also guess this - Yes, no one can predict OS in 10 years but we can all predict that MS is going down at the moment. There is lack of innovation and drive and that is what Mac & Linux benefit from. I would personally love mac vs pc to be 50% each as that would motivate each other for more innovation but that is few years away.  


Yes windows has lost market share. Does that mean that beyond a doubt it will continue to do so? Nope. A few years away for 50/50? Oh crud, I just realized you must have been trolling me the entire time.

On a seperate note, MTGO and the iPad: I can tell you one thing about it, it will not happen unless Apple changes its policy or Wizards works out a deal. 30% of sales in apple store apps goes to apple. Putting MTGO on there and losing 30% to that alone makes it highly unlikely.

Myths of Theros: Part 1, Part 2, Born of the Gods Myths

Beta Client, "Shiny", V4.0 tutorial

Momir Basic Primer

If you're a student, you can often pick up Windows for $5-15 unless things have changed.
On a seperate note, MTGO and the iPad: I can tell you one thing about it, it will not happen unless Apple changes its policy or Wizards works out a deal. 30% of sales in apple store apps goes to apple. Putting MTGO on there and losing 30% to that alone makes it highly unlikely.

Just wanna point out one thing here. Companies like Amazon get around this by having a web interface that allows custumers to purchase their stuff directly from a browser, and just use them within the ipad. This would work perfectly well with MTGO if they wanted to keep their 30%.

On a related note to what Gloor is demanding, the guys at Hex are doing exactly that (a TCG client that is built from the ground up to work on multiple platforms, including Mac and tablets) for about $2,500,000. In this case they have no product and have a large number of people interested in their ideas so it totally makes sense to build what they are building. However, in the case of MTGO, they already have a product that is making plenty of money so its a much harder sell to tell them that if they invest another 2 million dollars, they will make back that money and more in the long run.

I personally would do that because here is what I think will happen if they dont. Lets say they stick with their V4 client and only continue to make it stable, add a few features like leagues and a few more formats and minor UI tweaks over the next 4-5 years. Lets say they are shortsighted and refuse to put  a worthwhile investment (like those 2 million dollars) in the features that competing products have: a modern, intuitive UI, multiplatform support, specially for tablets, AI and tutorials, RPG/MMO elements for the single player experience, etc. 

During that time (4-5 years) two things will happen: 1) Tablets will become mainstream and will be the hardware of choice for most people and 2) The other games that are embracing the future will start to become more popular. This will have a significant effect on the population that is playing magic through MTGO and once people start switching to the other games, they won't come back because most people only have time and resources for one of these games. This means MTGO will lose a considerable market share and then the income will be reduced. 

If the people in charge of the budgets don't realize that investing a sum like $2,000,000 now will mean avoiding losing much more than that in the long run, then I'm afraid that it will be eventually time to jump ship.

For a great source of information on the Pauper format check out Pauper's Cage!
Hex was in developement 2 years before the kickstarter and I doubt they got paid in donuts only
Hex was in developement 2 years before the kickstarter and I doubt they got paid in donuts only

Indeed. And this just supports point that its very difficult to get things done and to convince people to invest unless you can justify a profit.

WoW took over 60 million dollars and 4-5 years to get started. Its certainly made much more than that, but its definitely not trivial making video games.
For a great source of information on the Pauper format check out Pauper's Cage!
Just wanna point out one thing here. Companies like Amazon get around this by having a web interface that allows custumers to purchase their stuff directly from a browser, and just use them within the ipad. This would work perfectly well with MTGO if they wanted to keep their 30%.

The question I would have in regards to that: does Apple actively approve of this? Or is it similar to Google Maps, at some point Apple will do their own version and kick the other off?
I personally would do that because here is what I think will happen if they dont. Lets say they stick with their V4 client and only continue to make it stable, add a few features like leagues and a few more formats and minor UI tweaks over the next 4-5 years. Lets say they are shortsighted and refuse to put  a worthwhile investment (like those 2 million dollars) in the features that competing products have: a modern, intuitive UI, multiplatform support, specially for tablets, AI and tutorials, RPG/MMO elements for the single player experience, etc. 

While there are some valid points the differences are being ignored. Does hex have millions of players playing a paper version of the game? A professional circuit around a paper version. I don't think the "RPG/MMO" elements could get much more complex than what is in Duels before you started having a very different paper and digital game which is likely something they would want to avoid.
During that time (4-5 years) two things will happen: 1) Tablets will become mainstream and will be the hardware of choice for most people and 2) The other games that are embracing the future will start to become more popular. This will have a significant effect on the population that is playing magic through MTGO and once people start switching to the other games, they won't come back because most people only have time and resources for one of these games. This means MTGO will lose a considerable market share and then the income will be reduced. 

If the people in charge of the budgets don't realize that investing a sum like $2,000,000 now will mean avoiding losing much more than that in the long run, then I'm afraid that it will be eventually time to jump ship.

Personally I still think the whole "tablets will replace desktops" thing is very exaggerated. Surveys have already shown that people use tablets for things like e-mail, internet browsing, reading, and playing simple games. Anything that takes much umph or is easier with a keyboard and mouse is done on the desktop. The laptop was supposed to kill the desktop, which clearly didn't happen. Each device will fill it's role. I doubt I'd want to play a 4+ hours MtG tournament on a tablet, chatting would be limited, and some things would just be difficult on a tablet. What if I need to target the 4th back in a pile? How many times will I fat finger the wrong one before getting it?

I do think there will be a tablet version at some point, but I don't think not having one will kill MTGO.

Myths of Theros: Part 1, Part 2, Born of the Gods Myths

Beta Client, "Shiny", V4.0 tutorial

Momir Basic Primer

In the "good old days", MtGO store purchases were done using a web browser.