How Would You Convert Tome of Battle to AD&D 1e?

9 posts / 0 new
Last post

I'm playing in a 1e game as a Fighter, and I've hit a bit of a problem: I've now specialized and double-specialized in my main weapon (bastard sword) and there's nothing really interesting I can do with my Fighter in terms of leveling. I could specialize in a ranged weapon, since bows get some fun stuff with specialization, but there's already a Ranger in the party who's done that so it would be a bit repetitive.

Given my stats (STR 17, INT 13, WIS 10, DEX 16, CON 16, CHA 14), there's not a huge range of interesting class alternatives from within 1e - we've already got a Cleric in the party and my character isn't particularly religious, don't have the stats or character background for Druid, don't have the Charisma for Paladin, don't have the Wisdom for a Ranger and we've already got one, we've already got 2 Magic-Users, don't have the alignment for Cavalier and honestly it's not that great, don't have the Wisdom or background for Barbarian, and Thief and Thief-Acrobat don't really fit that well.

However, I think my DM would be willing to let me multi/dual-class into a Warblade or Swordsage (and I love the ToB)...if it didn't require him to do much/any in the way of conversion.

Does anyone know of a retro-conversion of the Tome of Battle classes? Or have any hints about how to go about converting them?

Race for the Iron Throne - political and historical analysis of A Song of Ice and Fire.
I'm guessing you mean AD&D 1e (1977 - 1983). I'm not terribly familiar with that edition (my exposure to D&D of that age was the 1989 AD&D 2e).

A basic tone-down might be possible, but it would undoubtedly be very, very intensive to shift to 1e. The ToB is intensely tied to the action economy and power /mobility curve of 3.5 - that is, it's tightly designed around move/swift/standard actions per character, and its bonus damage assumes 3e HP (which is oodles higher than in 1e!).

You might be able to find a few rules of thumb on the results - for instance, start by cutting all the damage dice into flat-bonuses (a move that does +4d6 in 3.5 would do +4 here (not saying it'd work, just giving an example of a thumb rule) - but without those, I'm really not optimistic about a successful port.

Looks like you're stuck in one of the ruts with 1e: You hit stuff with stick. Eventually, you can't get any better at hitting stuff with stick.

Weekly Optimization Series

These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)


Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft


Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

3.5: Definitive Shopping List (gear guide PDF)


5e Eberron homebrew rules | Discussion: 5e Artificer

Yeah taking ToB to 1st edition is going to be next to impossible. the action economy not to mention the EXPLOSION of HP that every got from the change of 2nd to 3rd ( ist and 2nd are close enough to each other except for some classes, such as the ranger) in the ealrier editions the most HP a fighter was getting was 140ish. yeah fighters in 3rd have that by 7th.

So that 2nd level ToB maneuver that does +4d6 dmg is going to be crazy. the flat amount might be decent though. anything at all that fiddles with the action economy ( white raven tactics) would IMO just have to go.   

ToB is so intrinsicly tied to 3rd ed and its ruleset that you honesly have to completely rewrite teh whole thing

it would be so much easier for your DM to just work out some cool tricks for you to do if you want to sick more proficeincies into a particualr weapon or givng you things to do other than just smacking things in the face.

but that really all just just ties back to 1st ed strenght, its about you coming up with cool and interesting ways to play your characte and what all that character can do.      

what exactly do you want form your fighter, is it just ' i wanna do more than say 'i roll a d20, OK i hit THAC0 3 is it successful?" or do you want more from your fighter?  
I wouldn't even try.  ToB is fully designed for 3e and takes advantage of 3e mechanics.  For the most part evolution only works well one way so why you could "update" a 1st edition character to 3e without a lot of trouble going the other way really doesn't work so well.

If your bored with doing the same things over and over again as a early edition fighter (which is better than a 3e fighter overall comparison) maybe you should look at getting the DM to allow some of the houserule from from 2e and before that give you other things to do with your attacks. 
2e militant wizard 'dip'?

I dream of Beer Head Armies.

Autocard is our friend. [c‍]Urborg Mindsucker[/‍c] → Urborg Mindsucker

I think you'd have to pretty much rebuild the basic concept from the ground up (combat maneuvers that do interesting stuff).  Since I'm not familiar with that edition, I'd really have to look at what the other classes have to estimate the right sort of effects to add.

You could probably work with the basic descriptions of different maneuvers for inspiration.
Looks like you're stuck in one of the ruts with 1e: You hit stuff with stick. Eventually, you can't get any better at hitting stuff with stick.

Isn't that basically the same 3rd Edition problem the Tome of Battle was invented to solve?

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Fulminating Crab, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome LurkerIronglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
You actually don't need to do more damage in 1E. Not only did people have fewer HP, but monsters had FAR LESS hit points. Monsters didn't get Con bonuses. Yeah.

The thing to do is focus on the non-damage options that the Tome gives you as far as movement, parrying attacks, healing, semi-flight/dimensional hopping, and the like.

You could also do things like giving up multiple attacks for big attacks, as 1E has no always get your multiple attacks.

Honestly, fighters are so much stronger in 1E then 3E there's no need for massive upgrades.

Fighter vs Warblade analysis The Lockdown F/20 iconic build
Yeah, I may have to do this myself, and it's more the non-damage stuff that I'm after (charge attacks, Jump Attacks, defenses against magic, and the like). In general, I want the level of variety of things to do that magic gives you, with the added advantage of predictability, consistency, etc. that having a list of abilities give you. 

I came across this thread that does 3.5 to 1e conversions, but I don't have the best eye for system math, so any advice about how to convert damage values and the like would be appreciated.
Race for the Iron Throne - political and historical analysis of A Song of Ice and Fire.
Don't mess with the damage, damage works pretty good in 1E. The only thing you need to worry about is subbing 1 swing for multiple attacks. i.e. give up 2 attacks, make 1 attack for +1/2 ML dmg.

Basically, the only paradigm you need to worry is 'approx what damage should a melee be doing with a swing there, and how will I reskin it?' Considering that melee dmg maxed out around the +17 mark (+20 with weapon spec), additional damage above wpn+5d6 is probably pushing the limits of what you can allow. 

As soon as you start increasing damage, you start throwing ALL the combat classes in 1E out the door.

Charging isn't a 1E still got multiple attacks on charges in 1E.

Additional movement options, save boosters, and the like are your best bet to have fun with. The stances especially should be nice for you.


Fighter vs Warblade analysis The Lockdown F/20 iconic build
Sign In to post comments