Warmage Rainbow servant by lvl 2? Need help

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So I am building a warmage rainbow servant. I want to jump into rainbow servant as quickly as possible. Would (at lvl 1 warmage) Using the feat "Versatile Spellcaster" to open a higher lvl spell slot and then using "heighten spell" feat to get it up to lvl 3 work to meet the rainbow servant requirement of being able to cast a lvl 3 arcane spell? Also I read that heighten spell uses extra spell points but I cant find anything on how many spell points a warmage gets. Any help would be tremendously helpful.

Also If this is posted in the wrong area I appologize this is my first time using the forums.
What is the cost of heighten? I have been looking for that because I may want to get it later on anyway.
Also thank you for the help.
Yea well I know it raises the spells level by one. That is why I wanted to use it so that my level 2 spells could count as lvl 3 spells. The Rainbow servant only requires you be capable of casting a spell lvl3. I still don't get why it wouldn't work... you said I wasnt counting the "cost" of heighten. What is required of me to use heighten that I don't have?
So I am building a warmage rainbow servant. I want to jump into rainbow servant as quickly as possible. Would (at lvl 1 warmage) Using the feat "Versatile Spellcaster" to open a higher lvl spell slot and then using "heighten spell" feat to get it up to lvl 3 work to meet the rainbow servant requirement of being able to cast a lvl 3 arcane spell? Also I read that heighten spell uses extra spell points but I cant find anything on how many spell points a warmage gets. Any help would be tremendously helpful.

Also If this is posted in the wrong area I appologize this is my first time using the forums.

No.

The munchkin may say yes but many more reasonable DMs will just shut down the idea from the start.  If you have Versatile Spellcaster when you can only cast 1st-levels spells do you have a 2nd-level spell slot?  NO.  You may be able to get access to a higher level slot but that isn't really the same as having a higher level slot.

Heighten Spell does not have a "cost" as such although it allows you to use lower level spells in higher level slots as if it were that higher level.  A 1st-level spell Heightened into a 3rd-level slot is treated like a 3rd-level spell when it comes to overcoming resistances although it is still a 1st-level spell in other aspects.  I'll also note that just because you are casting a spell in a higher slot an have Heighten that MM feat does NOT automatically apply; if you are casting an empowered spell in a slot two levels higher the base spell level hasn't changed and if you want to Heighten it you will need to push the overall slot higher.

Now this is not what you want to hear but I'm sure Cyclone_Joker will tell you everything you WANT to here and will jump all over anyone who disagrees with his unerring assessments.
 
Ok so you are saying that heighten actually requires you to have a slot open in the level you are raising it to?
Ok so you are saying that heighten actually requires you to have a slot open in the level you are raising it to?

Heighten needs an open slot to raise a spell's effective level.  I am also trying to say that you actually must use a higher slot before you apply other modifiers to it which may push the slot requirements even higher.

Here is a basic example using Fireball from an 18th-level spellcaster with INT 20.
Basic Fireball:  3rd-level slot,  DC 13+INT mod save = DC 18; damage 10d6
Empowered FB:  5th-level slot, DC 18 (as above); damage 10d6 x 1.5
Heighten Fireball:  slot varies but say 5th-level slot used; DC = 15 + INT = 20; damage 10d6
Empowered Heighten to 5th-level Fireball:  7th-level slot; DC = 20; damage 10d6 x 1.5

Some will mistakenly say that if you have Heighten you get to apply its benefits automatically when ever you use a higher level slot (thus the Empowered Fireball would be cast as an actual 5th-level spell with save DC 20) but this is incorrect.
 
 
Like I said, jump all over anyone who disagrees. 

Interestingly I DID answer the thread and it was the same "NO" given at the very beginning.  I also point out that some interpretations may allow seem to allow it but one could expect many DMs to just shut it down.

Another funny thing.  Every time I read the Warmage entry I never happen to see anything about about the class having a higher level spell slot just because it happens to have a feat that allows for some spell slot conversion.
StevenO, sure, a DM could veto it, but the argument that you don't have a second level spell slot doesn't really hold water.  Versatile Spellcaster is what gives you that slot.  Now, with a standard sorcerer, you wouldn't have a second level spell KNOWN to use, but warmages, beguilers and dread necros don't have that issue, since they know all spells on their list.

One potential issue, though, that isn't addressed, is having a high enough caster level to cast said spells.  From the SRD:

Caster Level

A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.


You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.



Emphasis mine.

Now, this leaves a lot to be desired, since it doesn't specify what that minimum caster level is.  Presumably it's the minimum level to cast a spell for your class, and that's how I'd rule as a DM, but I guess if you wanted to argue a point, you could argue it there.  (Although I feel like that breaks the second commandment).  Still, it seems like a potential roadblock.
Versatile Spellcaster allows you to sacrifice two spells of a lower level to cast a higher level spell. If you don't have accesses to spells of the particular level then you don't have spells of that level, plane and simple. Saying that a 4th level warmage with versatile spell caster can cast a 3rd level spells is like saying a spell caster can cast spells of any level that they get a bonus spell slot due to a high ability score tied to their spell casting ability.
That's correct. Unless you have access to those spell slots, you can't cast a spell from them.

IIRC, there used to be a feat that gave you a 2nd level spell at 1st level...Precocious Apprentice, or something, and THAT feat got used for a lot of early entry shenanigans.


But you can't take a level 4 warmage, sack 2 2nd level spells, and cast a 3rd level spell. You don't have 3rd level spells to combine the slots to cast with!

Basically, Versatile Spellcaster is a way of moving spell slots around to max use of them. I believe there's an inverted version of the feat that allows you to 'split up' higher level slots into lower level ones, too.

And the Sanctum Spell stuff won't work, either. The trick 'might' potentially work if you only ever cast spells on your holy ground. But it's simply treated as a level higher or lower depending on where you are, it still has to come out of standing slot, and that's what the spells/entry reqs and whatnot are looking at, not what a modified spell ends up at.

==Aelryinth         
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
I'm away from my books right now, but I'm pretty sure the language on warmage, beguiler, etc., says that they know all the spells on their list, not merely the spells they can cast.  What prevents them from casting higher level spells is the fact that they don't have the slots to cast them from, which Versatile Spellcaster provides.

Of course, any DM would be perfectly able to say, "hey, you can't use Versatile Spellcaster to gain spell slots higher than you ordinarily have available," but as written it has no such restriction.

Still, the issue of having sufficient caster level to cast third level spells remains.
It actually says that when they gain the ability to cast spells of one level they then know all of the spells of that level. So now I have also heard from others that using heighten and earth spell can do it because you can cast a level one spell and it gets bumped up to counting as a lvl 3. What about that?
Versatile Spellcaster allows you to sacrifice two spells of a lower level to cast a higher level spell. If you don't have accesses to spells of the particular level then you don't have spells of that level, plane and simple.

Except Warmages do. That's the beauty of Warmages.
Saying that a 4th level warmage with versatile spell caster can cast a 3rd level spells is like saying a spell caster can cast spells of any level that they get a bonus spell slot due to a high ability score tied to their spell casting ability.

Wrong. There's nothing about bonus slots with any relevance to anything we're talking about. Keep the bad strawmen away, would you? But if you like that, then you'll love Elf Generalist Domain Wizard with Alacritacious Cognition and Versatile Spellcaster.



Interesting take, but I'll bite. Here's a little snippet from the rules compendium from the section on spell casting, in a sub section entitled "starting to cast":

"First you must choose which spell to cast. If you prepare spells, you select from among spell prepared earlier in the day and not yet cast. if you cast spells spontaneously, you can select any spell you know, provided you're capable of casting spells of that level or higher and you have an appropriate spell slot available. If a spell has multiple versions, you chose which version to use when you cast it. You don't have to prepare or know a specific version of the spell."

-The spell section of warmage states the following: "A warmage casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and wizards), which are drawn from the warmage spell list given below. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric or wizard must. When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage's spell list. Essentially, his spell list is the same as his spells known list. Warmages also have the option of adding to their existing spell list through their advanced learning ability as they increase in level (see below). See page 90 for the warmage's spell list.

To cast a spell, a warmage must have a Charisma score of 10 + the spell's level (Cha 10 for 0-level spells, Cha 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a warmage's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the warmage's Charisma modifier. Like other spellcasters, a warmage can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table 1—1: The Warmage. In addition, he receives bonus spells for a high Charisma score (see Table 1—1, page 8 of the Player's Handbook).

Unlike a cleric or a wizard, a warmage need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level."

-Versatile Spell caster says: "You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows."

If you put it all together you see that versatile spellcaster does not say it gives you an actual spell slot, it simple allows you to burn two lower level spell slots in order to cast a higher level spell, and warmage explicitly states that they do not know spells of a particular level until they are able to cast spells of said level. Further more, the rules compendium states that you cant cast spells of a level that you have no spell slots for, so once again that puts the brakes on versatile spell caster since it doesn't give you a spell slot, but lets you sacrifice to lower level spell slots for a spell one level higher.
Earth spell doesn't actually raise the actual level of a spell until after it is cast. It won't trigger effects that require X level of spellcasting ability. You're still restricted to spells of X level when PrC's check...when you toss the spell, it becomes 'virtual' higher level, but until it's actually cast, it's just a normal spell. It's not an 8th level spell in a 6th level slot, it's a 6th level spell that when cast works as an 8th level spell.

Saying that it gives the level bump BEFORE getting cast is giving out free metamagic before casting. It just doesn't work that way.

==Aelryinth  
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you

Still, the issue of having sufficient caster level to cast third level spells remains.

No it doesn't. No such CL is defined properly, and, as I've posted, it's trivially easy to get 9s at level 1.



Actually, I did a bit of digging, and while it doesn't define what the minimum caster level to cast a spell is in those two sections, it does in a couple of other places:

From PHB p86, under the UMD skill:

"The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll.  For instance, to cast web (a 2nd-level wizard spell) from a scroll, you would need a Use Magic Device check result of 23 or better, since the minimum caster level for web is 3rd level."

And moving to the PHB rather than the SRD for the original section I quoted, at PHB p171, under Caster Level:


"You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question... For example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast a fireball to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 damage.  If she wishes, she can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected caster level, and she can't cast a fireball with a caster level lower than 5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball)."

And, in the Rules Compendium on p85, under the section on Spell Completion items:

"If the scroll spell's caster level is unknown, assume the caster level is the minimum level required to cast the spell for the creature that scribed the scroll (usually twice the spell's level, -1)."

So we've got a couple of places in the PHB that specifically state there IS a minimum caster level required to cast spells.  While it doesn't define it in the PHB (and hence the SRD) at all, in both examples they use, the minimum caster level is equal to the earliest level that spellcasting class typically gets access to the spell in question.  Then in the Rules Compendium, they DO offer a general rule for minimum CL, stating that it's usually twice the spell's level -1.  (I know assumption is a dirty word, but I would assume the "usually" is to cover classes like Nar Demonbinder or Duskblade that don't follow the usual formula.)

There's enough ambiguity there that I suppose you could argue that it only ever says what the minimum CL "usually" is, and never gives a hard and fast rule for it.  And you get into really wonky territory when you start putting spells onto classes that don't get spell lists at all.  But to take that ambiguity and just ignore the fact that there's a minimum CL entirely - I feel like that is intentionally misreading the rules as written, which I don't like.

Doesn't mean that early entry doesn't work, it just means that Versatile Spellcaster alone can't really do it.
-Snip-

So I'm trying to understand, is it that you don't read my posts, or that you lack critical reading in general. Especially in contexts like this, where it points to both, it really gets hard to tell.




I would have to pose the same question back at you. If I'm wrong, cite your proof. The warmage spell entry explicitly states that you only know spells of a level that you can cast and that you need a spell slot in order to cast said spell. Even assuming that versatile spell caster would allow you to cast a higher level spell from a predetermined spells known list (which it doesn't since you aren't high enough level to know the spells) the feat itself does not give you a spell slot of a higher level, it allows you to cast a spell of a higher level by expending two spell slots of a lower level. Ergo, you have no spell slots in order to cast a spell with versatile spell caster as a warmage until you achieve a level that grants higher level spells. It's pretty basic reasoning. Thats also not even going into the lack of a caster level needed to cast said spells that piggyknowles has brought up.
I've removed content from this thread. Vulgarity, specificially masking vulgarity, is a violation of the Code of Conduct.

You can review the Code of Conduct here: company.wizards.com/conduct

Please remember to keep your posts polite and on topic and refrain from using explicit language. 
Lashius, research is 'cited', not 'sighted'.

I'm not trying to diss you, but you have to use the correct words if you want to see posts respected when arguing rules.

Don't rely on the spellchecker to know the words for you. ;)

==Aelryinth      
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Lashius, research is 'cited', not 'sighted'.

I'm not trying to diss you, but you have to use the correct words if you want to see posts respected when arguing rules.

Don't rely on the spellchecker to know the words for you. ;)

==Aelryinth      



Not a problem at all Aelrynth. Actually that raises a rather odd subject about myself. When I was younger I use to suffer from seizures (which I now believe to have been the cause of my porphyria (of which I have boath acute and cutanious en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyria)) which has caused some of my motor skills to be somewhat wonky. Case in point, I can read perfectly fine but I can't spell all that good, so sometimes I'll use improper forms of a word (like your and you're) or I'll accidentally use a homophone insted (almost like a pseudo dyslexia really). I'm usually pretty good about catching them when I type slowly or use a word processor, but the occasional few slip by me when I'm rushed. I actualy prefer the occasional correction, it helps keep me sharp.
So earth spell tricks work for a prepared caster only. Interesting.
So whoever aled the dORC dodged the question: Where in the text of Rainbow Servant prereqs does it say "slots?"



Nowhere does it say you need to have 3rd level spell slots, but it's a RAW rule that if you don't have a spell slot of a given, you cant cast a spell of that level. Even more so to the point, it says in the warmage's spell entry that they don't know spells of a particular level until they are high enough level to cast them.  That means that versatile spell caster does not let a first level warmage cast second level warmage spells since he doesn't know them for one, and even if it did, since neither sanctum spell nor versatile spell caster allow you to actually cast spells of higher levels (they don't grant a spell slot to do so), which leads to the conclusion that they do not qualify you for prestige classes that have a spell level requirement. The benifit of sanctum spell lets you cast a spell with an "effective" level of one higher, not an actual level (and since VSC dosn't work the way you thought it did even if sanctum spell qualified you would still be a level short).
*sigh*

I'm not sure about Versatile Spellcaster, but you can get free Metamagic to Heighten a spell to 3rd (off the top of my head I'm not sure if you can go straight from 1st to 3rd at L1, if you're discounting Sanctum, though). Since you're technically casting what is now treated as a 3rd level spell the RAW do allow that.

However, the questions of whether Sanctum counts, or whether you can use Versatile, or any of the rest of it, are all going to be moot if your DM decides that the RAI are that you need to be able to cast those spells "normally" to enter that PrC. He's either going to say, "Yeah sure enter at an earlier level" in which case he might cut you some slack over the rules anyway, or he's going to say "Hahahaha no" regardless or what the RAW are or what you think they are.

This one has been done to death - it either works, or doesn't work, or maybe works by RAW, but at the end of the day, you're going to have to run it by your DM anyway so who really cares? 
A spell that is two levels higher after you cast it is not the same as having spell slots or spells two levels higher. It's still coming out of a level x slot, not x+2. By that standard, you'd be able to qualify for the PrC for the duration you're actually casting the earth spell, and then lose it. Not really working.

==Aelryinth

Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
The argument is that it doesn't matter what slot it's coming out of - you're able to cast higher-level spells, and that's all that's required. Versetile Spellcaster may not let you can L2 Warmage spells but it would let you heighten a L1 to a L2, so that should even work too. Now, you may believe that they aren't "real" higher-level spells, as they're just Heightened to count as that, or whatever, but the real kicker is not what the rules say but whether your DM things you should be able to get into a PrC at L2. If he doesn't, no amount of rules waffle is going to get you in, RAW, or RAI, or anything.

(There's also the issue that it would arguably only work whilst standing on unworked earth, but with Warmage being spontaneous it doesn't matter so much as it's not like someone can just pick you up to un-memorise all your spells)

Seriously - this argument has been done to death. I think it's largely agreed that some of these methods do actually work by RAW - but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter if you never get to play them anyway, so who really gives a damn?
The argument is that it doesn't matter what slot it's coming out of - you're able to cast higher-level spells, and that's all that's required. Versetile Spellcaster may not let you can L2 Warmage spells but it would let you heighten a L1 to a L2, so that should even work too. Now, you may believe that they aren't "real" higher-level spells, as they're just Heightened to count as that, or whatever, but the real kicker is not what the rules say but whether your DM things you should be able to get into a PrC at L2. If he doesn't, no amount of rules waffle is going to get you in, RAW, or RAI, or anything.

(There's also the issue that it would arguably only work whilst standing on unworked earth, but with Warmage being spontaneous it doesn't matter so much as it's not like someone can just pick you up to un-memorise all your spells)

Seriously - this argument has been done to death. I think it's largely agreed that some of these methods do actually work by RAW - but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter if you never get to play them anyway, so who really gives a damn?



I'm not quite seeing your reasoning on how versatile spell caster would allow someone to heighten a spell slot to second level as a first level character. Like I said, VSP don't give you a spell slot, it lets you use a higher level spell at the cost of two lower slots, and a metamagic feat requires the adequate spell slots to function (in this case, heighten needs a spell slot of the level you wish to heighten your spell). So in the end a first level warmage with versatile spell caster and heighten spell simply has more uses of first level spells and a metamagic feat he can only use on zero level spells

Also, I've sad it before, and I'll say it again, sanctum spell dose not allow you to cast second level spells at first level in your sanctum. The feat explicitly states that they use a spell slot of the normal level, they only have an effective level of one higher. The feat also clearly states that a sanctum spells effective level increase is only for statistical portions of a spell like spell turning, globe of invulnerability, spell save DC's and like minded mechanics.

To date I've only seen one feat that allows you to cast an actual spell before you should be able to, and that's precocious apprentice. The feat allows you to only cast the spell you learned with the feat, but you do gain a spell slot, which qualifies you for prestige classes earlier or without as many levels, and for a warmage it can be used as a minor spell list expander. Other than that I don't think I've seen anything that holds up under intense scrutiny.

Edit: Taking a look at earth spell, you could technical cast a second level spell by heightening a zero level spell to first, triggering earth spell's effect, but this would still leave you stuck at maximum of second level spells at first level and so on.
I'm not quite seeing your reasoning on how versatile spell caster would allow someone to heighten a spell slot to second level as a first level character.

I was actually thinking of Precocious Apprentice, not VSP.
Heightened Spell itself doesn't talk about spell slots at all (only the general description of metamagic). VSP lets you cast a spell that you know which is one level higher. Well, a Heightened-to-L2 L1 spell is a spell that you know, and is L2.

As for Sanctum Spell, it depends what you think it means by "effective" spell level. Heighten Spell uses that terminology too so if you're willing to allow Heighten at all you should allow Sanctum.

The fact of the matter is, though, that it's kind of splitting hairs, whichever way you look at it. If I'm the DM and I don't think you should be going into Rainbow Warmage at L2, I'm just going to say that "effective spell level" doesn't count for that purpose, and that I don't really give a damn about which way you want to read it; outside theoretical OP, I don't think I've ever seen early-entry tricks get anything other than laughed down.

Really, it comes down to "It sort of sounds like this is OK, and it's never contradicted" vs "That was never the intent, however you read it" which is something I doubt there will ever be complete agreement on, so it's really not worth wasting time arguing about it. 
So whoever aled the dORC dodged the question: Where in the text of Rainbow Servant prereqs does it say "slots?"



Nowhere does it say you need to have 3rd level spell slots, but it's a RAW rule that if you don't have a spell slot of a given, you cant cast a spell of that level.

It's so cute when you talk about RAW without understanding it.



RAW, Rule As Written. Rather simple, and not a concept I'm mising in the least however...

Even more so to the point, it says in the warmage's spell entry that they don't know spells of a particular level until they are high enough level to cast them.  That means that versatile spell caster does not let a first level warmage cast second level warmage spells since he doesn't know them for one, and even if it did, since neither sanctum spell nor versatile spell caster allow you to actually cast spells of higher levels (they don't grant a spell slot to do so), which leads to the conclusion that they do not qualify you for prestige classes that have a spell level requirement. The benifit of sanctum spell lets you cast a spell with an "effective" level of one higher, not an actual level (and since VSC dosn't work the way you thought it did even if sanctum spell qualified you would still be a level short).



 Wrong. Versatile Spellcaster allows you to cast second level spells. Therefore, you immediately gain access. Good god, it's like this forum is half a decade behind the rest of the 3.5 community on even the most basic of rules.





...in regards to the as written part...


You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.


I'm not sure you're reading the feat...at all...


Note, it says spells you know, and the warmage's entery regarding spells states that:


...When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage's spell list...



meaning, simply put, a warmage needs to by high enough level to know spells in order to cast them. They don't know every spell on their list at level one, they learn their spells at the same levels a sorcerer does, they just have a set list. Even if they did, the rules compendium states that you need to have a spell slot of the appropriate level in order to cast it. if you read versatile caster again, it says nothign about giving you a spell slot. no matter how you slice it, versatile spell caster dose not do what you say it does.

THE SLOT DOESN'T MATTER. It doesn't say anything about the higher level spell costing two lower ones, it just allows you to cast a higher level spell by casting two lower ones. The cause you're giving is pure fabrication.



...read the feat, and then the warmage spell entery, and then get back to me on that...you'll find it's kind of hard to cast spells that you don't have. Or are you of the oppinion that a first leve warmage with a bonus spell slot from a high ability score can cast up to 3rd level spells?

Also, I've sad it before, and I'll say it again, sanctum spell dose not allow you to cast second level spells at first level in your sanctum. The feat explicitly states that they use a spell slot of the normal level, they only have an effective level of one higher. The feat also clearly states that a sanctum spells effective level increase is only for statistical portions of a spell like spell turning, globe of invulnerability, spell save DC's and like minded mechanics.

It makes it a higher level. Dead stop, the end. Yes ,you can cast high level spells out of low level slots. This is old news, what with Incantatrix and the rest of MM abuse. Cry more.



You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how spell slots work. A metamagic feat costs a spell slot of a higher level, it is not itself a higher level spell. I'll save myself the key strokes and just copy and past directly from the SRD in regards to this one.


Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell

In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.


The modifications made by these feats only apply to spells cast directly by the feat user. A spellcaster can’t use a metamagic feat to alter a spell being cast from a wand, scroll, or other device.


Metamagic feats that eliminate components of a spell don’t eliminate the attack of opportunity provoked by casting a spell while threatened. However, casting a spell modified by Quicken Spell does not provoke an attack of opportunity.


Metamagic feats cannot be used with all spells. See the specific feat descriptions for the spells that a particular feat can’t modify.



To date I've only seen one feat that allows you to cast an actual spell before you should be able to, and that's precocious apprentice. The feat allows you to only cast the spell you learned with the feat, but you do gain a spell slot, which qualifies you for prestige classes earlier or without as many levels, and for a warmage it can be used as a minor spell list expander. Other than that I don't think I've seen anything that holds up under intense scrutiny.

Focusing on irrelevant things again. I accept your concession



Then clearly that wouldn't be the first thing you've misconstrued on this matter.
(content removed)/quote]

Fixed the quotation error for you (not that it was all that hard to read prior), and I would highly suggest you re-read warmage, I've posted the relivant section that proves you wrong multiple times, so...enjoy.
Removed some personal attacks, which is against the Code of Conduct.

Let's keep it above the belt.

company.wizards.com/conduct 
He is purposefully misreading Versatile Spellcaster as giving him ACCESS to a new level of spells which it does not do according to how it is written. And I suppose if you just purposefully misread things you can get whatever result you want. Versatile Spellcaster does, however, allow you to Heighten a spell you know to 2nd level by expending 2 first level spell slots and with Earth Spell, Practical Metamagic, or Easy Metamagic (Heighten Spell) you could heighten to 3rd level.
Fixed the quotation error for you (not that it was all that hard to read prior), and I would highly suggest you re-read warmage, I've posted the relivant section that proves you wrong multiple times, so...enjoy.

Nope. I've read it. Versatile Spellcaster gives you the higher level you need, and your fixation on slots makes me think you know you're wrong and just don't have the sack to concede. So I'll be the bigger man and accept your concession so we can all move on.



I'm sorry, but could you please direct me to the part of versatile spellcasters text that says "This feat grants you +3 effective levels when determining your warmage spell's known", cause I'm not seeing it. Their spell section directly references a required minimum level in order to gain access to their next level of spells.

As for the latter part of that comment, I generally don't care what anyone thinks about the size of my "sack", and you can keep reading any argument I post as a concession, it doesn't really change the fact that I've posted a legitimate argument with cited articles of proof, well all you've done is essentialy say "other people have/are doing it, so rulez".

If you where however to post an actual argument in lue of pointless bravado and sardonic commentary, along with some rules that back your claim, I might be inclined to agree with the idea if you can make a case. Otherwise I think I'm close to being done, and accepting your silent concession.
Fixed the quotation error for you (not that it was all that hard to read prior), and I would highly suggest you re-read warmage, I've posted the relivant section that proves you wrong multiple times, so...enjoy.

Nope. I've read it. Versatile Spellcaster gives you the higher level you need, and your fixation on slots makes me think you know you're wrong and just don't have the sack to concede. So I'll be the bigger man and accept your concession so we can all move on.



I'm sorry, but could you please direct me to the part of versatile spellcasters text that says "This feat grants you +3 effective levels when determining your warmage spell's known", cause I'm not seeing it. Their spell section directly references a required minimum level in order to gain access to their next level of spells.

Then read Warmage and stop crying.
I post ... a concession

Good.
it doesn't really change the fact that I've posted a legitimate argument with cited articles of proof,

You're adorable.

Versatile spellcaster gives you 2s, warmage gives you the spells, Sanctum turns it up to 3. Dead stop, the end. You lose. Suck it up.



Waramge spells:


Spells: A warmage casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and wizards), which are drawn from the warmage spell list given below. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric or wizard must. When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage's spell list. Essentially, his spell list is the same as his spells known list. Warmages also have the option of adding to their existing spell list through their advanced learning ability as they increase in level (see below). See page 90 for the warmage's spell list.


To cast a spell, a warmage must have a Charisma score of 10 + the spell's level (Cha 10 for 0-level spells, Cha 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a warmage's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the warmage's Charisma modifier. Like other spellcasters, a warmage can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table 1—1: The Warmage. In addition, he receives bonus spells for a high Charisma score (see Table 1—1, page 8 of the Player's Handbook).


Unlike a cleric or a wizard, a warmage need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level.


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You need to have access to the level of spells in order to know them, meaning you need to be high enough level to cast them.


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Versatile Spell caster:


Benefit: You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

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You need to know a spell in order to use versatile caster on it. pretty simple.
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Heighten spell:

Benefit :A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.


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The feat heighten spell says you need to cast it as a spell of it's effective level, simple enough.


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From the section "casting spells" from the rules compendium:


"First you must choose which spell to cast. If you prepare spells, you select from among spell prepared earlier in the day and not yet cast. if you cast spells spontaneously, you can select any spell you know, provided you're capable of casting spells of that level or higher (ding ding ding)->and<-(ding ding ding) you have an appropriate spell slot available. If a spell has multiple versions, you chose which version to use when you cast it. You don't have to prepare or know a specific version of the spell."


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Would you look at that, the rules compendium says that if you don't  have a spell slot of the appropriate level, you can't cast said level of spell. As another minor problem, it also says you need to know a spell of the appropriate level in order to cast a, well, spell of the appropriate level. Seeing as how the parameters of what constitutes as casting a spell say you need those two things, it looks like heighten spell shenanigans don't qualify as casting a spell of said level.


I could go on on this, but I'm busy, so If I feel the need to, I may pick this up later. I would suggest reading up on those books you so eloquently suggest I burn earlier, you might surprise yourself at what's actually in them.

I'm sorry, was the argument ever about whether or not you get L2 Warmage spells?

VSP lets you "cast a spell you know that is one level higher". How's this: Magic Missile, Heightened to L2? I'm a L1 Warmage, so I know Magic Missile. I have Heighten Spell. So that's all kosher. But wait! It's as difficult to cast as a L2 spell. Well, VSP will let me cast any L2 spells I know - including Heightened MM.

The thing about having to have a spell slot is all well and good, but even that could be interpreted as OK since you have the two lower-level spell slots available.

The problem with the English language is that one phrase can mean more than one thing, and that people often say one thing when they mean another. This interpretation of the rules is pretty much valid, but it's also not the only one. As I said, you could just say "yeah, well "effective" doesn't count", or maybe a million and one other things (like, you don't really "know" a Heightened Spell, etc). Or you can say the opposite. The point is, you're never going to win this argument, either way. The best thing to do is call it "undefined" (whatever you think) and just make a ruling for your own game. I mean, if your DM is actually going to allow you to play a L2 Rainbow Warmage, you probably have bigger problems to worry about that whether it's enshrined in this mythical "truth" that people seem to think exists about the rules.
Also, please don't quote such big chunks. It makes my scrolling finger tired.
I'm sorry, was the argument ever about whether or not you get L2 Warmage spells?

VSP lets you "cast a spell you know that is one level higher". How's this: Magic Missile, Heightened to L2? I'm a L1 Warmage, so I know Magic Missile. I have Heighten Spell. So that's all kosher. But wait! It's as difficult to cast as a L2 spell. Well, VSP will let me cast any L2 spells I know - including Heightened MM.

The thing about having to have a spell slot is all well and good, but even that could be interpreted as OK since you have the two lower-level spell slots available.

The problem with the English language is that one phrase can mean more than one thing, and that people often say one thing when they mean another. This interpretation of the rules is pretty much valid, but it's also not the only one. As I said, you could just say "yeah, well "effective" doesn't count", or maybe a million and one other things (like, you don't really "know" a Heightened Spell, etc). Or you can say the opposite. The point is, you're never going to win this argument, either way. The best thing to do is call it "undefined" (whatever you think) and just make a ruling for your own game. I mean, if your DM is actually going to allow you to play a L2 Rainbow Warmage, you probably have bigger problems to worry about that whether it's enshrined in this mythical "truth" that people seem to think exists about the rules.




As for the point I'm trying to make, heighten spell says that the spell is in all ways effectively a spell of that level, yes. The rules compendium however says that you need to have both a spell known of a particular level in order to cast, and you need a spell slot of the same level in order to cast a spell. Regardless of weather or not versatile spell caster allows you to sacrifice two lower level spell slots in order to cast a higher level one, you still need a higher level spell slot in the first place in order to cast the a spell of higher level. Versatile spell caster doesn't give you a spell slot, so theres no where for the heighten spell to go to except the maximum level of spell slots you have. In other words, you hit a ceiling when it comes to heighten spell, and that ceiling is your maximum spell slots.

As for the ruling on this being "undefined", I'd have to disagree. It's just a matter of knowing what rules to reference. From everything that I've posted, reading everything litiraly suggest that I'm right, but that comes down to RAW vs. RAI which is a different argument. Of course if a DM wanted to say one way or another is completely up to him, but like I said, from everything I'm reading it wouldn't be according to the literal interpretations of the rules (I.E. the RAW) that govern the subject in game.
Well, in light of these new findings, I'd say that the only real early entry possibilities would be precocious apprentice and earth spell.
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