What do you hate about D&D:Next?

Why do  you hate D&D:Next?



  • Fantasy Vietnam - I can't play a heroic character from first level, I have to start somewhere around level 5 to get that feeling in 5E.

  • Options - I need interesting options at every turn. During creation, interaction, exploration, and combat. We don't get that in 5E.

  • Non-Vancian Caster - I need a non-vancian caster or I can't play a Wizard the way I like. Its extremely simple to fix this. There's no excuse that it isn't fixed.

  • Interesting options for martial classes - My players demand interesting martial classes that are effective and equal to the Wizard in usefulness. Something 4E did well, but previous editions did not. I don't care if there are simple options for those that want them, but there must be options to be complex or at least interesting.

  • Monster Math - The monster math is so far off at this point that there is little point in testing anything else. You can't tell if a feature is a good one if the best option is to do a basic attack or cantrip to end the fight faster.


I'm sure there are more, what do you hate about 5E? Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Oh for the love of Crom, do we really have to banish the fighter to tier 4/5 for another edition?

Giving the fighter nice things that put it in the same ball park of the casters, has to be a core feature of the game, not some afterthought tacked on at a later date. The nice things in a well designed fighter class can be clearly labeled, so if the DM insists they can just take them all away. Of course doing this will make the class horribly unbalanced, but LF/QW is the exact desired outcome of such adjustments to the game.

It is beyond easy for a DM to remove clearly labeled features to put fighters in the muggles only ghetto. On the other hand it is really freaking difficult for a DM to have to completely rewrite the core game system for fighters to have nice things.


I don't get what about this solution would not work for all preferred play styles. If someone, anyone, does not think this is the most elegant solution please tell me why.



I would rather have subclasses handle the breakup.  If fighter is the archetype, then something like Slayer or Warrior can handle the traditional approach.  I think going through and individually x'ing out powers you don't like on one class is not going to go very far.  It's far easier to just say you don't want to play with certain classes.

I personally think that the people wanting wuxia powers are a distinct minority.  I think the moderate middle want some powers but they'd be happy just using reasonable powers.  Those who want no special abilities are probably another distinct minority.   Even the minorities though are non-trivial and should be addressed.

I do get disgusted with your tone and attitude which I think is 100% bogus and false.  But I realize convincing you is impossible so you have my suggestions.  I didn't want silence to imply that you had even one good point above in my opinion.



Where are you getting your numbers from? I think just the opposite. I think the people on these boards represent a vocal minority and that many people want 'wuxia' style powers for the Fighter. Setting aside your anecdotal evidence that I just countered with my equally anecdotal evidence, I would be fine with separate classes or with powers marked [supernatural] or [extraordinary] and then have an 'old school' release that just didn't list those powers as options, or put them in the DMG version of the 'old school' release. Then have the tactical release with everything printed in it for the rest of us. That would completely satisfy me...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Players relied otherwise exclusively on their codified pokemon powers.


Yeah, pre-4e spellcasters were incredibly...gamist :\
Shamanstar, that experiment already failed, proving you wrong. Thus the new edition.



Do we really have to pull this out again in every thread?

No 4E did not fail because of the game or any specific mechanics. It failed because of WotC poor business practices. From not getting preview copies out to other companies and alienating them with the GSL (which specifically prohibited selling 3.5E or earlier material at the same time) to they way they treated their customers to their inability to create the software package they promised on release to the way they advertised 4E by telling 3.5E players they were playing wrong to the Essentials debacle which was basically a money grab. WotC made quite a few business mistakes. Heck, I personally despise WotC and all the corporate greed it stands for, but I love 4E.

4E failed because the company failed, not because it wasn't a good game...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Shamanstar, that experiment already failed, proving you wrong. Thus the new edition.



Do we really have to pull this out again in every thread?

No 4E did not fail because of the game or any specific mechanics. It failed because of WotC poor business practices. From not getting preview copies out to other companies and alienating them with the GSL (which specifically prohibited selling 3.5E or earlier material at the same time) to they way they treated their customers to their inability to create the software package they promised on release to the way they advertised 4E by telling 3.5E players they were playing wrong to the Essentials debacle which was basically a money grab. WotC made quite a few business mistakes. Heck, I personally despise WotC and all the corporate greed it stands for, but I love 4E.

4E failed because the company failed, not because it wasn't a good game...Smile



Your love for 4e doesn't prove that it failed due to poor business practices. 
If they wanted wuxia styled powers, why aren't they still playing 2e in hordes and the books flying off the shelves? Something does not compute.

I already know the answer to that one : they aren't, because it doesn't interest nearly as many people as you think.


If they wanted wuxia styled powers, why aren't they still playing 3e in hordes and the books flying off the shelves? Something does not compute.

I already know the answer to that one : they aren't, because it doesn't interest nearly as many people as you think.


If they wanted wuxia styled powers, why aren't they still playing 1e in hordes and the books flying off the shelves? Something does not compute.

I already know the answer to that one : they aren't, because it doesn't interest nearly as many people as you think.


To an extent, yes.  The issue is that the farther and farther you get away from realistic, the more people have issues with it.


True enough but I don't think that line should be anywhere near "Sometimes I can hit more than one guy with a ranged attack." Esepecially when his teammate gets to roll some d6s and be like 
"That many." 
"That's a lot of damage." 
"No, that's how many enemies die." 

And the whole "But fighters aren't maaaaagical argument," doesn't work here. They can make that distinction fine, whatever and have different mechanical implementations, but that doesn't excuse the
"I can blow up a city in my sleep." 
"Okay, cool whatever, you're a wiza- DID THAT FIGHTER JUST MOVE 12 SQUARES IN ONE ROUND, I THINK THAT BREAKS THE LAND SPEED RECORD ON FOOT, WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE THAT THEY CAN BREAK RECORDS IN ALL THAT ARMOR GET YOUR **** TOGETHER WOTC." effect and they should still have the same rough mechanical equivalent effectiveness. 

TLDR: Just because fighters can't fly around, and make other stuff fly around, doesn't mean they should be relegated to "Full attack, full atack, colorfully described full attack, move regular attack." 

Zammm = Batman.

It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.

The Pony Co. 

Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.

Its called skill. You know 'best at fighting' and all that stuff...Smile



No amount of skill can reliably pull that off in combat.  There's a huge difference between "best at fighting" and "does absurd things that even the best at fighting can't do".  Richochet is in the second category.



Except at the level you get ricochet you are well above normal and doing equally absurd things like falling off cliffs and getting up and walking away, carrying hundreds of points of gear with no penalties, getting hit with a flame thrower and walking away or slaying demon kings or whatever.

I think you are just stuck in a kind of 'tradition' loop at this point and if it doesn't match up to your favorite edition you are against it...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Most D&D players want their PCs to pull off the occasional OMG move, but once you can do it reliably, every day, it becomes dull. The first time you do that? Awesome, super cool. Novelty wears off after a few dozen times, no matter how you try and reflavor your power each time, it's just semantic jargon.

Players using their imagination to actually try to do cool, NEW things is what D&D's all about. Having a pre-determined set of powers is NOT condusive to using your imagination, it's quite the opposite. It misses the ENTIRE point of the game!!

Blasting your knockout daily for the umphteenth time is NOT creative. Use your imagination to come up with fresh, new things, the DM assigns a DC, if you happen to roll a crit (which happens often enough), you'll get some fireworks on a regular basis. If you prefer some game designer to lay out all your options for you in a list, where you have to pick this one OR that one, is VERY stifling. Why can my guy only try to knock out an enemy at level 9? And only if he took this daily power instead of that one? The entire power system is way too rigid.

They built this deck of cards to bring balance, but there was no balance between powers of the same level, I invite people to peruse the char op boards and look at the color coded powers. It's a fundamental, structural flaw that CANNOT exist at the same table as classic, powerless D&D.

No martial dailies to do things we can all try to do! I can swing two swords at once, why do I need a power for that? In 4e, giving people a list of things they CAN do is explicitly saying, everything else that your friends can you, you cannot even try. A character without Twin Strike CANNOT even TRY to swing two swords at once. It is completely, 100% frustratingly absurdly limiting compared to every other D&D ruleset.

And before anyone mentions page 42, explain how you could emulate Twin Strike using it. Or Knockout. Can't be done. So...why have powers at all? Why indeed. The D&D gamers don't want martials to have "powers", so Next is just giving us what we want. If they tried to release another clone of 4e (what would be the point?) this company won't last.



Page 42 is a legitimate way to improvise. You need codified powers so that the DM has a reference. If a Ranger without trying can use two weapons at once at-will, then maybe allowing the fighter to do the same thing isn't super hard and should just be a moderate check. It gives an idea of what the game expects to be doable and it gives players a general idea of what their characters can reliably pull off.

I've never had a problem describing or making a combat interesting in 4E when players use the same powers.

You keep throwing out stuff like "clone of 4E" and "D&D gamers don't want martials to have 'powers'". First off no one, and I mean no one, is asking for a clone of 4e. We are asking for options to emulate the 4e play style that you never have to use at all, EVER. WotC won't last because they have no clue how to treat their customers. It has zero to do with 4E and 100% to do with customer service...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Why do  you hate D&D:Next?



  • Fantasy Vietnam - I can't play a heroic character from first level, I have to start somewhere around level 5 to get that feeling in 5E.

  • Options - I need interesting options at every turn. During creation, interaction, exploration, and combat. We don't get that in 5E.

  • Non-Vancian Caster - I need a non-vancian caster or I can't play a Wizard the way I like. Its extremely simple to fix this. There's no excuse that it isn't fixed.

  • Interesting options for martial classes - My players demand interesting martial classes that are effective and equal to the Wizard in usefulness. Something 4E did well, but previous editions did not. I don't care if there are simple options for those that want them, but there must be options to be complex or at least interesting.

  • Monster Math - The monster math is so far off at this point that there is little point in testing anything else. You can't tell if a feature is a good one if the best option is to do a basic attack or cantrip to end the fight faster.


I'm sure there are more, what do you hate about 5E?

Main thing I hate about 5e is the haters, hahaha. OP if you hate the game as it's shaping up go play something else, or at least post criticism in a less inflammatory manner.

Hmm but to nominate a part of 5e i dislike, i dislike the current lack of monster tweaking rules. Need these rules soon!



Yep, already calling it Rocket Tag instead, but thanks for reading the thread before posting.

Yeah, without the 'haters' as you call us, a tiny percentage of players would be happy and D&D would get shelved. Also criticism can be constructive. I'm pointing out flaws in the game, and aside from my choice of 'super deadly' buzz words that I'm changing, I've been very neutral and clear.

This is a play test. We ARE supposed to tell the developers what we don't like and things that just don't work. That is the point of play testing...



things that dont work for you, do not in any way predict or mean a failure of the system. ...



Its called MATH. If an equation doesn't work out when you run the math there is a problem. Like getting TPK'd at 1st level 23% of the time because no one rolled high enough for initiative or level 5 parties being able to take out level 10 threats that are supposed to be tough for a level 9 party.

Its just running the math. It doesn't work for anyone. You can have a good DM that can house rule it away or break the encounter building guidelines or any number of things, but the system itself does not work at this point...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I miss codified exploits and I wish weapons had a stronger impact on my character and options. I can only hope D&D allows for these sorts of options in some form.
At present, a fighter can do anything a player can dream up. The moment you start limiting that range of possibility by explicitly spelling out what the class can do, you're nerfing the class. No idea why you'd want to do that.



Actually no. They can attempt to do anything but with the skill check DCs (which is the suggested method of adjudicating improvisation) and random DM variability, they really can't.

Fighter Player "I want to get a running start and jump over the pit using my strength."

Rogue Player "I want to get a running start and jump over the pit using my dexterity, if I fail I us Ace in the Hole to turn it into a 20, also I get to add 1d6 because I'm an Acrobat Rogue."

Monk Player "I throw a bucket of water and run across the water."

Wizard Player "I spider climb and walk across the wall with zero chance of failure."

but...but... the Fighter can role play right? Yeah, so can every other class and most can do it better such as the Cleric that can give themselves advantage on any checks involved. The Rogue who can take 20 on any failed skill check a couple times per day and add +1d6 to specific checks. The Wizard that just auto succeeds when they use a utility spell etc...etc...

Yeah, telling the Fighter they can go 'role play' themselves is not an acceptable solution. I mean your personal style might be to pander to the Fighter player and allow all kinds of crazy stuff because the developers can't be bothered to give it interesting features, but some of us play RAW. We follow the rules and we'd like for there to actually be mechanical reasons a Fighter is awesome instead of having to let them break the rules to feel like they didn't get shafted by picking the wrong class...



your examples are flawed as many of the same classes can help the other party memebers with their skill, so a fighter can carry someone and jump ect. its a team game not pvp so the need to balanced classes isnt as critical.



Sorry no. Other members of the party don't NEED the Fighter to carry them, they all have a better chance of getting over the pit than the Fighter because they weren't told to go 'role play' themselves by the developers when they asked for out of combat mechanics.

Not being a PvP game just means it needs balancing even more. Unless of course you think a majority of players (at a 4/5 ratio) like playing side kick. If that's the case they need to call it out and have the 'hero' classes and the 'side kick' classes. I personally think that most player want to get at least as much spot light time or feel at least as useful. In which case they need to balance the classes.

Fighter Player "I try to convince him by intimidating him and flexing my 18 Strength muscles."

Rogue Player "I lie to him and say we'll let him go. If I fail my check I'll just take 20 with Ace in the Hole, and I get to add +1d6 because of my Rogue Scheme."

Cleric Player "I use Guidance/Eagles Splendor to gain a bonus to my diplomacy check to convince him to talk."

Wizard Player "I cast charm person and ask nicely for the information. Auto success."

Again there is nothing the Fighter can do that isn't done by other players and "Go role play yourself" is not an acceptable answer...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.


I only looked at the first 5 and since they were all useless, I didn't bother with the rest.  The first is a game and games are about the "cool", not about the physics, so it can reliably do something that cannot be reliably done. 



Uuuuuuum, I've got some bad news for you. You may want to sit down for this one, since it's a bit of a doozy.

ready?
 
D&D, it's... it's not real. It's just a game. I'm so sorry.
 



D&D, it's chalked full of realism (not reality).  Believability is a huge part of D&D, whether you want to admit it or not.



Precisely. I want a game where the PCs are willing to try things I might never attempt in real life due to wanting to continue living with all my digits, but that doesn't mean I want my character to have super-human strength, and be able to leap tall buildings, push dragons around like they were made out of foam, or make oozes deliberate whether they should attack you or your ally.

The are dozens of examples of PCs in 4e doing things that are completely absurd, while at the same time no explanation why they can't do even simple things that I can do in REAL life, with NO TRAINING!

I mean, I can walk and chew gum at the same time, or drive and change the radio station in my car, or check my blood sugars, but my 4e dragonborn with overland flight can't even swig a potion, or breathe his iconic breath weapon while he's flying, after reaching level 16!! The rules are soooooooo bad. So limiting. Frustrating. Fake. Ugh. Worst off, boring. That's the unforgiveable sin here. It's not merely unrealistic and implausible, but the repetition that each combat brings from re-using such a narrow set of powers day in, day out, ad nauseam. Want nothing to do with it.

If there's such a thing as "powers" in 5e, I'm not buying it. Learned my lesson from last time.

My rules for playing an RPG : My martial characters have to be able to AT LEAST do what I can do in real life, or try to. And magic has to be different, and mysterious, and powerful, and let you do things you could not otherwise do.  Superficial balance is a straight jacket. You can't balance the Fly spell or Invisibility with a martial ability, all you can and should do it limit its use and duration to something reasonable. 




Wait, so the Fighter using basic attack in previous editions wasn't repetitive but powers that do different things and give at least 4 different choices at 1st level are some how 'repetitive'. Um ok... I'm just not sure you are being serious or simply trying to start fights...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
You know what would be nice? The fighter playing by the real laws of physics so when he hits with his sword the creature dies. You wanna make fighter good in combat, remove HP and its bloat completely and stick in "Hits". Most monsters have 1 hit and when its dealt, they're dead. No more stupid tracking and dozens of different weapon die and blah blah. A sword hit KILLS people as it should be. You wanna make the fighter be important in combat, how about every successful attack drops bad guys? Yea hes a walking save or die but at least its real.
Shamanstar, that experiment already failed, proving you wrong. Thus the new edition.



Do we really have to pull this out again in every thread?

No 4E did not fail because of the game or any specific mechanics. It failed because of WotC poor business practices. From not getting preview copies out to other companies and alienating them with the GSL (which specifically prohibited selling 3.5E or earlier material at the same time) to they way they treated their customers to their inability to create the software package they promised on release to the way they advertised 4E by telling 3.5E players they were playing wrong to the Essentials debacle which was basically a money grab. WotC made quite a few business mistakes. Heck, I personally despise WotC and all the corporate greed it stands for, but I love 4E.

4E failed because the company failed, not because it wasn't a good game...Smile



Your love for 4e doesn't prove that it failed due to poor business practices. 



Your hate for 4e doesn't prove that it failed due to mechanical shortcomings.

However I've linked multiple times to sales goals that spelled the end of 3.5E and 4E. So I've shown more evidence than you have...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.

If you're fighting a mindless zombie, how is it supposed to know what your "mark" is? Are they telepathic?


It's been a while, but I'm fairly sure they covered that.  As I recall, the fighter was the only defender  that didn't get some form of voodoo, and he marked all adjacent enemies at the end of his turn. Almost like he was physically interfering with them or something (I guess you could argue that the -2 would stop applying after the enemy moves outside your range, but you could argue that you still shook them up enough from your interference, which really just leaves one specific subsection of a class feature affecting a specific subset of enemies as an issue, which is pretty good in my book, and not worth addressing lest we run into the aforementioned silliness that was the 3.5 sneak attack or "Oozes shouldn't be affected by a specific status because of the exact combination of letters used to label that condition" issue). 

Zammm = Batman.

It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.

The Pony Co. 

Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
If they wanted wuxia styled powers, why aren't they still playing 4e in hordes and the books flying off the shelves? Something does not compute.

I already know the answer to that one : they aren't, because it doesn't interest nearly as many people as you think.



According to a recently quoted article 4E still has 1/5 of the market without printing a single new book in around a year. That should tell you something. Unless you have some links to back up your numbers and aren't just talking out of a dark place that the sun doesn't shine, please refrain from spouting random numbers. I understand you don't like the thread title, but please refrain from edition warring in an attempt to get the thread shut down, or I'll do likewise in the "love" thread that I have so far not posted in...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
As I recall, the fighter was the only defender  that didn't get some form of voodoo, and he marked all adjacent enemies at the end of his turn.


Close. Fighter marks anyone he attacks, hit or miss.

Not being a PvP game just means it needs balancing even more. Unless of course you think a majority of players (at a 4/5 ratio) like playing side kick. If that's the case they need to call it out and have the 'hero' classes and the 'side kick' classes. I personally think that most player want to get at least as much spot light time or feel at least as useful. In which case they need to balance the classes.



I think balance is the wrong word here. They don't need to be balanced, so much as all able to contribute roughly equally at any given level. Which seems to be what you're saying too, I just think people seem to get hung up on the word "balance."

As I recall, the fighter was the only defender  that didn't get some form of voodoo, and he marked all adjacent enemies at the end of his turn.

 
Close. Fighter marks anyone he attacks, hit or miss.



Oh yeah, good times. I think a fighter was actually the only defender I haven't played (Mostly because I swear every fighter I've played with couldn't roll above a 10 more than two or three times per session ). But yeah, really just reinforces the "Good enough to be able to harrass them into missing more often / getting in a free attack while they're focused on someone else" flavor.

Zammm = Batman.

It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.

The Pony Co. 

Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
Didn't they already fix quadratic wizards by having damage spells scale up by fueling them with higher level spell slots?



Cyber-Dave posted the numbers. They still don't match up. For a Fighter to match meteor swarm they would have to have this maneuver:

Whirling Dervish
You whirl around the battle field swinging wildly with your weapon and shrugging off attacks.
Effect: As an action you can move 120 feet. Any time you are adjacent to an enemy you may make an attack against them. Instead of dealing normal damage you deal 8 times your weapons damage.

That right there matches up to Meteor Swarm.

It's a strawman to suggest that those of us who want some plausibility or even a passing nod to realism (instead of scorn and derision) for martial / un-magical characters, don't want them to contribute at all levels in meaningful ways.



Until you show me how they should do that, I'm going to believe the more plausible explanation.

I think the fighter should do more single-target damage than the wizard, and most people I guess also think that's fair, since killing stuff face to face is the fighter's schtick. But that's not the same as giving them magical abilities but not being intellectually honest to admit that's what they are.



We aren't advocating magic power, no matter how much to try to frame it as such. I've posted video after video and link after link of real solid facts of how adrenaline works and showing real people doing these supposedly magical exploits in real life and you people act like I'm paying actors to do it or something.

The laws of physics work perfectly well in novels, reading one doesn't mean one needs to compute vectors or draw diagrams, but if you read about some guy pushing around a 5-ton beast, then you start scratching your head. Uhhh, how's he doing that, exactly? If you're fighting a mindless zombie, how is it supposed to know what your "mark" is? Are they telepathic? If you read stuff like that in a novel, it wouldn't pass the editor's desk, unless your character were explicitly fighting, say, only other humans, and telegraphing their moves or threatening them, or perhaps actually being telepathic, none of which are what we were expected to sit through. After enough times of rolling your eyes and just accept disbelief, it's like...why bother? Other games don't require you to check your sanity at the door and accept double think as a requirement to play the game. Active suspension of disbelief is either helped or hindered by the rules. But there's only so many narrative disconnects people can handle before throwing in the towel. I guess some people's tolerance for contradictory and implausible rules are greater than others. But why tolerate it? Why not just make sensible rules to begin with? And if you can't come up with a rule that satisfies plausibility, perhaps it's best to not even include it.



I take it you've never read an Conan novels where he wrestles with demons and lifts boulders or any of that right?

Its called heroic fantasy for a reason. Its based on Conan, greek myths like Heracles, LotR, etc...etc... and the heroes are supernatural. I do hope they put a module in for you people that want mundanes and overpowered casters, but if they want my money they better put in a way for me to play an actual hero.

The best feature of D&D is having a human DM. DMs are good for more than just moving pieces around a chess board and playing a few cards and following a strict, rigid formula. The human brain is capable of so much more.



Sure, but we shouldn't have to rely entirely on a human brain when we can instead have rules and guidelines to speed things up. DMs are there to bring the story to life, not answer 20 questions:

Player "I want to jump over the table and kick the other one into the fire. Can I do that?"

DM "Sure, you can try."

Player "What do I roll?"

DM "Roll a Strength check to see if you get over the table."

Player "I got a 13 on the Strength check, is that high enough?"

DM "Yes you clear the table, now roll an attack roll without your weapon modifiers."

Player "I rolled 17 is that good enough to hit?"

DM "yep, now roll an opposed Strength check."

Player "I got a 13. Do I push them into the fire?"

DM "Yes you beat my 11. They goe into the fire."

Player "How much damage does it do."

DM "einy meany miney moe... 2d6."

Player "I should have just attacked. 8"

DM "yes you should have."

Player "Do I fall prone?"

DM "Make a dexterity check."

Player "9 is that good enough?"

DM "nope, you fall flat on your back on the floor. The remaining Orcs all attack you because you slowed the game to a crawl."

That's not quite 20 more like 8, but you get the idea. Instead it should be like this:

Player "I want to jump over the table and kick the other one into the fire. Can I do that?"

DM "Sure according to the rules on page 42 you make a Strength check against the targets AC, so your DC is 14."

Player "I got 17, nice so I pushed the Orc into the fire?"

DM "Yep and you are now standing on the other side of the table. The Orcs tremble in fear at your battle prowess."

That's how it should be...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Most D&D players want their PCs to pull off the occasional OMG move, but once you can do it reliably, every day, it becomes dull. The first time you do that? Awesome, super cool. Novelty wears off after a few dozen times, no matter how you try and reflavor your power each time, it's just semantic jargon.

Players using their imagination to actually try to do cool, NEW things is what D&D's all about. Having a pre-determined set of powers is NOT condusive to using your imagination, it's quite the opposite. It misses the ENTIRE point of the game!!

Blasting your knockout daily for the umphteenth time is NOT creative. Use your imagination to come up with fresh, new things, the DM assigns a DC, if you happen to roll a crit (which happens often enough), you'll get some fireworks on a regular basis. If you prefer some game designer to lay out all your options for you in a list, where you have to pick this one OR that one, is VERY stifling. Why can my guy only try to knock out an enemy at level 9? And only if he took this daily power instead of that one? The entire power system is way too rigid.

They built this deck of cards to bring balance, but there was no balance between powers of the same level, I invite people to peruse the char op boards and look at the color coded powers. It's a fundamental, structural flaw that CANNOT exist at the same table as classic, powerless D&D.

No martial dailies to do things we can all try to do! I can swing two swords at once, why do I need a power for that? In 4e, giving people a list of things they CAN do is explicitly saying, everything else that your friends can you, you cannot even try. A character without Twin Strike CANNOT even TRY to swing two swords at once. It is completely, 100% frustratingly absurdly limiting compared to every other D&D ruleset.

And before anyone mentions page 42, explain how you could emulate Twin Strike using it. Or Knockout. Can't be done. So...why have powers at all? Why indeed. The D&D gamers don't want martials to have "powers", so Next is just giving us what we want. If they tried to release another clone of 4e (what would be the point?) this company won't last.



You must absolutely hate playing vancian wizards, huh?
All those hard-coded powers, with uncreative effects baked into it.  No room to be creative, come up with an effect on the spot, the DM assigns an arbitrary DC, and you roll.  "If you prefer some game designer to lay out all your options for you in a list, where you have to pick this one OR that one, is VERY stifling." ... "Having a pre-determined set of powers is NOT condusive to using your imagination, it's quite the opposite. It misses the ENTIRE point of the game!!" ... this just in, wizards miss the entire point of D&D!

I say, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.  Give us a bare-bones, basic-attack-ad-nauseum fighter, but give us a bare-bones wizard, too.  Get rid of those "stiffling", "rigid", "dull" lists of spells.  Just a list of neat magicalicious effect suggestions, and you can improv it with your DM's help whenever you want to cast a spell.  Of course, by the same token, if we're going to have a "boring" wizard, with all those dreary lists of codified effects, we really ought to make the fighter player suffer the same dreary fate, by giving him equally codified maneuvers.  Right?
TLDR: Just because fighters can't fly around,and make other stuff fly around, doesn't mean they should be relegated to "Full attack,full atack,colorfully described full attack,move regular attack."

If that's all you think a fighter does, then yes, maybe you should play a class which has its options spelled out for you more mechanically.
Most D&D players want their PCs to pull off the occasional OMG move, but once you can do it reliably, every day, it becomes dull. The first time you do that? Awesome, super cool. Novelty wears off after a few dozen times, no matter how you try and reflavor your power each time, it's just semantic jargon.

Players using their imagination to actually try to do cool, NEW things is what D&D's all about. Having a pre-determined set of powers is NOT condusive to using your imagination, it's quite the opposite. It misses the ENTIRE point of the game!!

Blasting your knockout daily for the umphteenth time is NOT creative. Use your imagination to come up with fresh, new things, the DM assigns a DC, if you happen to roll a crit (which happens often enough), you'll get some fireworks on a regular basis. If you prefer some game designer to lay out all your options for you in a list, where you have to pick this one OR that one, is VERY stifling. Why can my guy only try to knock out an enemy at level 9? And only if he took this daily power instead of that one? The entire power system is way too rigid.

They built this deck of cards to bring balance, but there was no balance between powers of the same level, I invite people to peruse the char op boards and look at the color coded powers. It's a fundamental, structural flaw that CANNOT exist at the same table as classic, powerless D&D.

No martial dailies to do things we can all try to do! I can swing two swords at once, why do I need a power for that? In 4e, giving people a list of things they CAN do is explicitly saying, everything else that your friends can you, you cannot even try. A character without Twin Strike CANNOT even TRY to swing two swords at once. It is completely, 100% frustratingly absurdly limiting compared to every other D&D ruleset.

And before anyone mentions page 42, explain how you could emulate Twin Strike using it. Or Knockout. Can't be done. So...why have powers at all? Why indeed. The D&D gamers don't want martials to have "powers", so Next is just giving us what we want. If they tried to release another clone of 4e (what would be the point?) this company won't last.



Players will do crazy stunt naturally. Thats what players do. Using a daily in 4th isn't a shocker, using it well is to totally screw over team monster is. Being able to use a daily again makes it more exiting, as one will often remember "that one time, when you pulled off this move, at just the right time, and everything went your way." Ultimately your point means nothing because of one simple rule, which is shared across all D&D, the dice rule. It is not the player alone that makes a memorable stunt, but the dice as well. The dice are the true story tellers of D&D, always have, always will. Dailies in 4th are not all reliable, the dice "choose" which powers are reliable or not.

If a player's imagination is stomped by having a defined set of powers, then that player does not have much imagination to begin with. All D&D players I know have a lot of imagination. It shows in their choices, in their role play, and even in their roll play. By your assumption, playing a wizard or druid would be the most flat characters to play! Veterans of 3.x, is that the case? Are spellcasters, the players with the most defined powers, the most unimaginative characters to play?

Lets be honest, Wizards built flaws and trap decisions into 3x and 4th. Yes, they made and encouraged poor game choices for the purpose of rewarding players "who knew the game" and punishing players who didn't. In 3x, the game designers released their own "redesign" books to "fix" the systems they intentionally made broken. Chew on that from a moment. Char-Ops is the fan's attempt to counter 4th's bloat and intentionally bad powers/feats. 

The power system in 4th is only truelly ridged in the first few levels, after that, not some much. Less so in paragon, and 4th becomes almost a whole new game in epic.

You mention that you can't try to do a Twin Strike. Thats a moot point, you can TRY to twin strike, but if you dont have the power, you will fail to twin strike. While we are at it, why can't a druid try cast magic missle and throw a hammer at the same time? Why can't D&D be Skyrim with paper? At some point the player, the DM, and the game designers need to make concrete decisions about their game. 

FYI, yes in 4e you can have a druid that throws a hammer and casts magic missle at once. I would not recommend making it, but yes sir you can have it. If you want a character who has Twin-Strike, but isnt a ranger, you can do that, it just takes...some...imagination!


You don't see a difference between Wizard and "I AM BEOWULF!" simply becuase they both break the bonds of reality, but in staggeringly different ways?

...

I hope you are just doing that to be cute, and are not serious.


EDIT: I see from your sig that you are familiar with 4e. I take it you are familiar with the idea of "Sources" yes? 



I'm not sure how you are drawing this conclusion from what I wrote.

I fully endorse wizards and warriors being on equal footing, but in their own unique ways.

The problem I had is with your assertion that fighters who throw boulders, shrug off fireballs and bounce ranged weapons should be relegated to epic levels (which in traditional D&D is post 20th level) when wizards get to do  this stuff well before then (Spike Stones - level 7; Protection from Energy -  5th level; Telekinesis - 9th level; by the way they can also conjure clouds of posion, enslave extraplanar creatures, attac people in their sleep, and transform other creatures into toads at this point).

So to reiterate...I believe that martial characters should evntually grow into the  likes of Hercules, Cuchullain and Gilgamesh, but that they should do so before the end of PHB levels.

To that end, I propose tiers similar to what we saw in 3E/4E:

levels 1-5 Adventurer tier - Bilbo Baggins, The Gentleman Bastards, Logen Ninefingers & Gang; Gord the Rogue
levels 6-10 Heroic tier - Conan; the Black Company; Fellowship of the Ring; Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser
levels 11-15 Legendary tier - Elric of Melnibone; Li Mu Bai; Beowulf
levels 16-20 Mythic tier - Rialto the Magnificient; Gilgamesh; Rand Al Thor

Using these as a guideline, classes are balanced according to the expected power levels of each tier. People wanting a gritty game keep things relegated strictly to the adventurer tier, those wanting a sword and sorcery experience stop levelling after heroic tier, and those wanting the full shebaz keep going until mythic tier.



Thread titled: "What do you love about D&D Next?"
Number of replies: 45



Thread titled: "What do you hate about D&D:Next?"
Number of replies: 312



That's what I hate about D&D next.

"Ha! Rock beats scissors!" "Darn it! Rock is overpowered! I'm not playing this again until the next edition is released!" "C'mon, just one more." "Oh, all right..." "Wait, what is that?" "Its 'Dynamite' from the expanded rules." "Just because you can afford to buy every supplement that comes out..." "Hey, it's completely balanced! You're just a bad DM for not accommodating it."

Show
RPGs are getting more popular, and whenever something gets more popular, it inevitably changes, usually becoming more palatable to the masses. Nintendo is the perfect example. In the old days their games coined the term "Nintendo hard" to extend play time, but they knew their fans were dedicated enough to play anyway. Now they mostly make stuff a five year old can master. That's not necessarily bad, though. Most of those old Nintendo games were infuriating. Likewise, a lot of old RPGs were too complex and irritating for the average person to really get into. Rules light systems are going to get more popular as more people enter the hobby, simply because the new people aren't bound by nostalgia, and would rather play something easy and fun than something that takes a huge amount of effort to learn.
This is only natural.  Were both threads created at the same time?  Anyway, those wishing to complain are often much more vocal, and they're trying to reply to responses in turn.  The fans say their opinions, and the concensus developed doesn't brook much argument, and if anyone comes there to challenge any of that, they know they're in the wrong thread.

D&D Next is more than satisfying now, and it will only be better and better.
Plus, given the fact that not only have the devs repeated that they're essentially done designing the core game, but they're already releasing content, this type of whining is all the naysayers have left. They failed to derail the redesign. They've already lost. Threads about how sad they are about that is pretty much all that's left to them.
Plus, given the fact that not only have the devs repeated that they're essentially done designing the core game, but they're already releasing content, this type of whining is all the naysayers have left. They failed to derail the redesign. They've already lost. Threads about how sad they are about that is pretty much all that's left to them.



No, what's sad is the developers really could have made a game we could all get behind, but instead chose not to. So now they have to live with another 2-4 year edition...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Lol, professor this isnt even the beginning. Once the game finally rolls out people will be here on an hourly basis and complaining how it does do "insert edition here" and how bad it is. People will continue to complain, gripe, bash, rage, troll, and bait for the next forseeable years. Or didnt you think we werent learning these past 5?
Thread titled: "What do you love about D&D Next?"
Number of replies: 45



Thread titled: "What do you hate about D&D:Next?"
Number of replies: 312



That's what I hate about D&D next.



That's how most things work. People are more apt to complain about things by nature. Say you're sitting in a pile of kittens eating Dunkaroos and drinking Mountain Dew Distortion. You might throw in a "This is awesome," but you don't really need to say much, things are already perfect. Conversely, say you've got diet mountain dew. Now you'll die unless you speak up, so you're more apt to chime in with a "Hey, I need a different drink."

Plus you can't judge by post count alone, I'd venture roughly half the posts are defending the game's various choices and such, plus people like myself who are ambivalent but can't resis a good ole fashioned throwdown. 

Zammm = Batman.

It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.

The Pony Co. 

Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
Plus, given the fact that not only have the devs repeated that they're essentially done designing the core game, but they're already releasing content, this type of whining is all the naysayers have left. They failed to derail the redesign. They've already lost. Threads about how sad they are about that is pretty much all that's left to them.



Because clearly all we want is to kick sand in the eyes of anyone who likes the 5e playtest packets as-is, and not (as one might surmise) to give thoughts on how to make 5e better.
At present, a fighter can do anything a player can dream up. The moment you start limiting that range of possibility by explicitly spelling out what the class can do, you're nerfing the class. No idea why you'd want to do that.



Actually no. They can attempt to do anything but with the skill check DCs (which is the suggested method of adjudicating improvisation) and random DM variability, they really can't.

Fighter Player "I want to get a running start and jump over the pit using my strength."

Rogue Player "I want to get a running start and jump over the pit using my dexterity, if I fail I us Ace in the Hole to turn it into a 20, also I get to add 1d6 because I'm an Acrobat Rogue."

Monk Player "I throw a bucket of water and run across the water."

Wizard Player "I spider climb and walk across the wall with zero chance of failure."

but...but... the Fighter can role play right? Yeah, so can every other class and most can do it better such as the Cleric that can give themselves advantage on any checks involved. The Rogue who can take 20 on any failed skill check a couple times per day and add +1d6 to specific checks. The Wizard that just auto succeeds when they use a utility spell etc...etc...



Haha, I love these arguments, because it turns out that the Wizard did not even have spiderclimb and now he is stuck on the other side of the pit.

Wish we had some rope of something.

Member of the Axis of Awesome

Show
Homogenising: Making vanilla in 31 different colours
At present, a fighter can do anything a player can dream up. The moment you start limiting that range of possibility by explicitly spelling out what the class can do, you're nerfing the class. No idea why you'd want to do that.



Actually no. They can attempt to do anything but with the skill check DCs (which is the suggested method of adjudicating improvisation) and random DM variability, they really can't.

Fighter Player "I want to get a running start and jump over the pit using my strength."

Rogue Player "I want to get a running start and jump over the pit using my dexterity, if I fail I us Ace in the Hole to turn it into a 20, also I get to add 1d6 because I'm an Acrobat Rogue."

Monk Player "I throw a bucket of water and run across the water."

Wizard Player "I spider climb and walk across the wall with zero chance of failure."

but...but... the Fighter can role play right? Yeah, so can every other class and most can do it better such as the Cleric that can give themselves advantage on any checks involved. The Rogue who can take 20 on any failed skill check a couple times per day and add +1d6 to specific checks. The Wizard that just auto succeeds when they use a utility spell etc...etc...



Haha, I love these arguments, because it turns out that the Wizard did not even have spiderclimb and now he is stuck on the other side of the pit.

Wish we had some rope of something.



Naw, the Wizard just breaks out Jump, Levitate, Fly or any number of spells to get across...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Naw, the Wizard just breaks out Jump, Levitate, Fly or any number of spells to get across...



Sorry, dont have those spells either.

Maybe I should not have gotten so many 'Kill the Enemy' spells and just loaded up with the 'Do stuff that my other party members already do better then me wasting my precious precious spell slots' spells instead.

Member of the Axis of Awesome

Show
Homogenising: Making vanilla in 31 different colours
Well, sure, if the wizard never ever takes any spells that do anything another PC does there is no problem at all.

Why have those spells in the game?
Well that is the problem with codified abilities isnt it.

If the only way a Wizard can climb a wall is to have Spider Climb, and it turns out that he does not have Spider Climb then Magic Missile is not going to be able to help him out.

Member of the Axis of Awesome

Show
Homogenising: Making vanilla in 31 different colours
Well yeah, but then your just playing the wizard poorly. Sounds more like a problem with the player and not the class.


Yes, because a good player would have learned every spell.


Member of the Axis of Awesome

Show
Homogenising: Making vanilla in 31 different colours


However, what's the problem with having the ability in the game for Fighters to choose? Okay, so you want your Fighters to be heavily training martial warriors and nothing else.  I'm cool with that.



Me too.

But maybe someone else wants to play a Fantasy Warrior, throwing boulders with his STR 20, shrugging off fireballs with his high HP, and bouncing ranged weapons. The latter case is a Supernatural Fighter. He's not "magical", but he's a great warrrior in a fantasy setting and can therefore do the normally impossible.



Supernatural is effectively magical.  A synonym for magical is miracle, which itself is a synonym for supernatural.  A supernatural fighter is using abilities beyond the normal to do what he does.  Effectively using a specialized telekinesis or somethig to cause ricochets.

I think there's room for both.



So do I.  It's called different classes.  Some martial classes will be mundane.  Other martial classes will be supernatural.

 




Ok, this is just getting ludicrous now...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVXhzuwdpxI - Not real life, but a realistic 3D game that uses physics shows how it would be possible

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIVQyXq_q0g - The two balloon one, because apparently people are blind.
No I'm not I already explained why this is no good as a representation of D&D or real combat. apart form I forgot it's very obviously set up, as I said try it with a medieval longbow using clothyard shafts a t proper target into another target.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKY9FpRGyJI - Not rricochet, but 11 arrows in the ground before the first one hits, less than 6 seconds for 11 arrows. For future Rain of Arrows multi-attack arguments.
And I've already stated from history fast shooting was the norm

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLk1v5bSFPw - 12 shots in 3 seconds.
Er thats a gun?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgl-KQt0-AI&NR=1... - 200 yards with pinpoint accuracy.
With a modern bow!!!! I've seen many shots at up to 150 yards every week with the arrows all grouped together, they checked out our longbows and could not believe inaccurate they were to they're modern bows.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN6DXnTt-5A - Ricochet off a board into the target.
Not sure what you are trying to prove with this why would you bother when you can just shot the target, nice trick shot but in combat pointless.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=T39VlHP0oMw - Double ricochet.
again

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXkGNypNm5M - Shoots a diamond ring.
Impresive shot, though looking at the wall behind he had to try many times before sucess. My fellow re-enactors and I'm sure the archer in the video woud also say such a shot is pointless in a combat situation, you wouldn't want to be that close you would not be that calm and judging by the misses he can hit an area of a few inches as a whole grouping with one through the ring. I could do the grouping with my longbow at that range, still the actual shot is impressive but really pointless and for television.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbQezcKi1pc - Mirror shot (shoots behind him)
Again impressive but for a combat situation, why?

Any questions? Yes? Ok:

mathewsinc.com/media/products-video-gall... - Not sure if this is a parody or not.
Nor me, also not quite sure what you mean by this site

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricochet - The physics behind a ricochet.
Don't patronise me.

At this point after viewing real people ricochet several times repeatedly shoot behind them and shoot with precision accuracy and shoot 11 arrows in 3 seconds. Then reading the physics behind it. If you still want to get rid of the ricochet maneuver for fighters, your just plain in the "fighter's can't have nice things' camp. Because its physically done in real life over and over and over...


 With modern bows set up shots and pointles televsion stunts or do you the conspiricy man believe everything you see on television? Why don't you get a replica english longbow with proper arrows and then join a re-enactment group and shot during a battle then come back to me. however as I stated earlier I personally have no real issue with "ricochet" it's a GAME with magic and monsters, just stop showing set up and pointles youtube crap, try doing it yourself with other people then come back. I need more tea....



Yes, because I'm an expert marksman and would have any chance of hitting my target let alone ricocheting a shot.

How about we get two volunteers to stand near each other and let someone shoot them? What no volunteers? C'mon, it's for science...

Okay last time mate, first off I don't really have any big issues with ricochet in D&D yes it's slightly unbelievable but for me HP's are the biggest problem with this. As for finding volunteers yes it would be trouble, having said that I know someone who if asked would think about it . I have seen many people hit by arrows though, but in re-enacment they have to have blunts on but it does still hurt and causes many bruises. The issue with finding examples in real life is as follows, in order to fire an arrow hard enough to cause an effective ricochet at a moving target (they are not going to stand still) is range this has got nothing to do with the bows pull (longbows will reach a much higher range) it's more to do with pulling the shot off. Instead of a nice calm set up shot with balloons and silence and in your own time and extra shots if you fail, this is life or death the noise is loud you have to pick the right target from many running towards you you cannot take your time (pull release repeat) then (and here is the HP problem) you have to make sure the first target is dead or seriously injured from the arrow and then have it hit the second one, you MIGHT pull off a great shot but no-ones going to witness it because the next second you will be dead, and that is the issue in D&D HP's don't work like that except with minions so yes I dont' have a massive issue with ricochet in D&D because of HP mechanics, but in real life you cannot prove a ricochet is effective in combat, for tourney archery hell yeah it would be great although most will hate you for showing off and the medieval mindset is one of "great shot but how is that useful in real life?". Also in a real battle by the time the enemy gets that close (and this is probably why no-one has thought about trying this) you drop your bow and grab your side arm a short sword in my case (althougth this year I am getting a pickLaughing) or you will die. Any way I'm done on this as it is very off topic (in your own thread), there is no need to PM either mate. Thanks for the discussion though. My cups empty hmmm "to the kettle huzzah!"
In their 4e play examples, the average number of improvised actions in two hours of game play was 2. Players relied otherwise exclusively on their codified pokemon powers. In their broadcast DDN examples, by contrast, over twenty improvised actions in a three hour session



I struck out your edition warring crap. Now I will actually respond to your point.

So what?

That is an honest question.

Maybe the people playing 4E didn't want to make stuff up as much as you do and the people who played Next wanted to.

Improvisation is a thing that EVERY player can do if they want to. That does not mean that every martial class's ONLY class ability should be "make something up every round if you want something interesting to do."

Just because you like it does not mean everyone who wants to play a non-magical character should be forced to do it.

And just because you like to improvise that does not mean some classes should have absolutely no tools to affect any part of the narrative while others are decked out with abilities that can run rough shod over every part of it.

You want to improvise? Fine, play any class and improvise.

Different people like different things. You do not get to decide that martial classes should not get any interesting abilities because of what you like.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

There is a nice little self created divide here. Shame there can't be more acceptance instead. I feel that is where the future of the game should be.

All this vitriol, pushing away, retroactive retaliation, and preemptive striking needs to stop.

I keep trying but some won't let things go. Will you?

 

Because you like something, it does not mean it is good. Because you dislike something, it does not mean it is bad. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it everyone's opinion. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it truth. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it the general consensus. Whatever side you want to take, at least remember these things.

To be fair, I'll point out that yes, I have posted in both the Love thread and this Hate thread...and I did so with 10 things in each that went along with the theme of the thread (while qualifying in both threads that Love and Hate were too strong words)

There are things to like about 5e, or at least about the ideas and goals of 5e, and there are things that are worth being concerned about...AND different people are going to be viewing these things differently.

Zappy makes a quite valid point above though....Comparing how much improvising was done in the publicized games of 4e and then 5e doesn't prove or disprove the improv-ability of the games, it only showcases that in the two examples, different people play differently...that's the joy of this game in the first place. Some people want to spend the entire session doing nothing but roleplaying and improvisation, others want to hack and slash their way through, others want to do a little of both(the majority I believe, but who's to know for sure)

The key to 5e's success is going to be inclusiveness, they have stated it as one of their goals, to unite the fractured fanbase, being able to play the way you like to play...that means, whenever there's a decision point to be made, the most inclusive choice should be the one made.

This means you build a Fighter class, with options in the base class (not splat or sidebarred) that include highly mundane abilities AND also so-called 'Wuxia' abilities, but not hard coded into the class, AVAILABLE OPTIONS, and just clearly label said options. An example I gave before was Ricochet...since that's just such a highly argued about power...at the same level as your Fighter can take Ricochet as a 'power' choice (and really, exploit or maneuver is better from a sales perspective, power was used in 4e only so that codification would be easier, they were called exploits too if you recall) a Fighter at that level could also choose Deep Wound (do more damage), Slam (basically a shield bash), or Wide Arc (Cleave or Followthru type attacks), all plausible attacks within the Mundane argument camp. Also they could take Strike Command (Cheer on an ally to basically inhance the brutality/damage of their hit) a more 'Wuxia' choice in line with the flavor of the Warlord that the more Heroic/Epic camp likes, so the Heroic/epic camp gets 2 choices, the Mundanes get 3 choices...this is the kind of thing they need to keep doing and do more of. 

BUT no, people complain about the power Ricochet being in the game at all, and heavens forefend that anything like the Warlord be in the game, Dissonance Dissonance!!!!!

You don't like the powers/exploits/choices, don't allow them in your game. You don't have to magic-marker your book, you just have to be a responsible DM and go over your PC's character sheets before play, or who knows, actively help them make their characters (which most good DMs do, one or the other anyway, to make sure their characters not only fit into the campaign as its run, but also looking for hooks to pull the PC into the story)

Basically, one camp is lobbying for "My way or the highway, your stuff should all be relogated to appendixes and splat books and sidebars" and the other camp is lobbying for "We want our stuff included, yours can be there right beside our stuff, but don't leave our stuff out in the cold" now, which lobby, do you figure, is more along the lines of 'Inclusivity" do you guess? I know the answer! 
Want continued support for 4e, check this out, 4e Lives and Breaths

Check out MY eZine, Random Encounters Seuss (lordseussmd on YM)
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