What do you hate about D&D:Next?

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I'll also note the bashing of being able to ricochet arrows, yet a lack of calling out people also being able to make meteors rain from the sky.



The game sets up an in game reason for this to be able to happen.  It's called........maaaaagic.  The game universe sets up magic to exist AND violate the physical laws of the game universe.  The game universe sets up no in game reason for some really absurd martial abilities to be able to happen, which causes a disconnect and shocks many people out of game immersion and ruins the game for them.  If it doesn't happen to you, great!  Enjoy. 


They have been setting up reasons for absurd martial abilities since the second suppliment of OD&D.

Big Model: Creative Agenda
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th Edition
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My blog of random stuff 

Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke


I'll also note the bashing of being able to ricochet arrows, yet a lack of calling out people also being able to make meteors rain from the sky.



The game sets up an in game reason for this to be able to happen.  It's called........maaaaagic.  The game universe sets up magic to exist AND violate the physical laws of the game universe.  The game universe sets up no in game reason for some really absurd martial abilities to be able to happen, which causes a disconnect and shocks many people out of game immersion and ruins the game for them.  If it doesn't happen to you, great!  Enjoy. 


They have been setting up reasons for absurd martial abilities since the second suppliment of OD&D.




No they haven't.

The game sets up an in game reason for this to be able to happen.  It's called........maaaaagic.


In-game reason for arrow ricochet=skill.



Nope.  The game sets up the ability.  It does not set up a reason why physics are so absurd that the ability works reliably.



There is no magic in Ricochet. The Fighter isn't a magic-using class. The ability is just ridiculous. Period.
You throw an axe, it crushes someone skull, and then for no reason at all it goes flying in another direction to crush someone else's skull.

The ability is just utterly silly. And people who throw the "no realism" excuse around for an "anything goes" are just silly. It's a poor attempt to find an excuse for an ability to exist that was created in the first place only for mechanics sake. 

This is just absolutelly horrible game design for an RPG. In a narrative based game first you think what characters should be able to do, and then you devise the rules for that. Not the other way around. Never the other way around. We need explanations, things that make sense, not "excuses" for rules to exist. If you have a magic axe that flies on its own towards other targets that's one thing. There is an explanation, whether it's good or not is another matter, but there is a reason for it to happen. When you have an ability that any Fighter can take and for absolutelly NO reason at all his axes go flying around, this doesn't make any sense. Period.

When you are making fiction, any kind of fiction, the distinction between "realism" and "making sense" is VERY clear. One has nothing to do with the other. People who throw the "but there is magic in the game so it's all the same thing" exucse clearly can't even make that distinction and have no idea what they're talking about.

If I'm reading a Marvel comic book and Spider-Man can stick to walls because of his powers, and Jean Gray can bounce axes from target to target because of her Telekinetic powers that is one thing. It isn't realistic, but it MAKES SENSE in that fiction. Now if in that same comic book random people in the streets, regular everyday humans, start to walk on walls and bouncing axes for NO reason whatsoever, no explanation whatsoever, this is just a horrible attempt of fiction that doesn't make any sense. 

The Fighter is just that. A fighter. A guy who is highly trained and is very good at fighting. People who train to fight don't gain Telekinetic supernatural abilities of making axes and spears fly from one target to another.


Abilities like Ricochet were made only for mechanics-sake. Something like "Oh, the Fighter needs some way to hit more than one ranged target with Expertise, so let's make the mechanics and then find whatever excuse for it to exist."

This is plain terrible design for an RPG. 

I completely understand your desire for things to make sense within the framework of the setting. And I agree, saying "but it's magic" is a cheap excuse.

However, what's the problem with having the ability in the game for Fighters to choose? Okay, so you want your Fighters to be heavily training martial warriors and nothing else. I'm cool with that. But maybe someone else wants to play a Fantasy Warrior, throwing boulders with his STR 20, shrugging off fireballs with his high HP, and bouncing ranged weapons. The latter case is a Supernatural Fighter. He's not "magical", but he's a great warrrior in a fantasy setting and can therefore do the normally impossible.

I think there's room for both. And it would be easy enough for those types of manuevers to be flagged with "supernatural"...which the DM could easily ban. Consider the Monk maneuver Hurricane Kick. When you used 3 expertise dice, it went from a strong kick to magical. I loved that. Notice it explicitly stated that in the ability description.

You can have both.

Rules for martial and magical duels: I challenge you to a duel!

Ideas for Improving Druid Wildshape

Embracing the D&DNext saving throw system: Why 6 Saves are better than 3

Ideas for Fighting Styles!

Improving Armor with Ramzour's Armor Table

Improving the skill system with Ramzour's Character Skill System

Rules for a simple non-XP based leveling up system, using the Proficiency Bonus

Convert your Wizard to Mana Points with Ramzour's Mage Mana Point System.

Giving classes iconic abilities that don't break the game: Ramzour's Class Defining Ability system.



I'll also note the bashing of being able to ricochet arrows, yet a lack of calling out people also being able to make meteors rain from the sky.



The game sets up an in game reason for this to be able to happen.  It's called........maaaaagic.  The game universe sets up magic to exist AND violate the physical laws of the game universe.  The game universe sets up no in game reason for some really absurd martial abilities to be able to happen, which causes a disconnect and shocks many people out of game immersion and ruins the game for them.  If it doesn't happen to you, great!  Enjoy. 


They have been setting up reasons for absurd martial abilities since the second suppliment of OD&D.




No they haven't.


So what do you call giving monks class cleric spells and explicidely stating its not magic is then?

Big Model: Creative Agenda
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th Edition
Reality Refracted: Social Contracts

My blog of random stuff 

Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke


However, what's the problem with having the ability in the game for Fighters to choose? Okay, so you want your Fighters to be heavily training martial warriors and nothing else.  I'm cool with that.



Me too.

But maybe someone else wants to play a Fantasy Warrior, throwing boulders with his STR 20, shrugging off fireballs with his high HP, and bouncing ranged weapons. The latter case is a Supernatural Fighter. He's not "magical", but he's a great warrrior in a fantasy setting and can therefore do the normally impossible.



Supernatural is effectively magical.  A synonym for magical is miracle, which itself is a synonym for supernatural.  A supernatural fighter is using abilities beyond the normal to do what he does.  Effectively using a specialized telekinesis or somethig to cause ricochets.

I think there's room for both.



So do I.  It's called different classes.  Some martial classes will be mundane.  Other martial classes will be supernatural.

 



Jocks having fun doesn't ruin the game for me, because those abilities simply don't exist in my game.  Maybe you should try a less social hobby if the way I play my game upsets you so much.



That line of reasoning doesn't follow...my  philosphy on the subject of martial vs. magic is inclusive, whereas yours is exclusionary.



I'll also note the bashing of being able to ricochet arrows, yet a lack of calling out people also being able to make meteors rain from the sky.



The game sets up an in game reason for this to be able to happen.  It's called........maaaaagic.  The game universe sets up magic to exist AND violate the physical laws of the game universe.  The game universe sets up no in game reason for some really absurd martial abilities to be able to happen, which causes a disconnect and shocks many people out of game immersion and ruins the game for them.  If it doesn't happen to you, great!  Enjoy. 


They have been setting up reasons for absurd martial abilities since the second suppliment of OD&D.




No they haven't.


So what do you call giving monks class cleric spells and explicidely stating its not magic is then?


Chi. Ki. Qi.  however you choose to spell it.  Monks use supernatural means to achieve much what they do.  Effectively, they use non-traditional magic.
Why do  you hate D&D:Next?
Fantasy Vietnam - I can't play a heroic character from first level, I have to start somewhere around level 5 to get that feeling in 5E.



Define heroic. The classes are awfully powerful at 1st level.


Options - I need interesting options at every turn. During creation, interaction, exploration, and combat. We don't get that in 5E.



I agree. It is a shallow game. Most of it starts with the samey classes.



Non-Vancian Caster - I need a non-vancian caster or I can't play a Wizard the way I like. Its extremely simple to fix this. There's no excuse that it isn't fixed.



You know what Im going to say.


W D H A R V C


e ont ave eal ancian aster



Interesting options for martial classes - My players demand interesting martial classes that are effective and equal to the Wizard in usefulness. Something 4E did well, but previous editions did not. I don't care if there are simple options for those that want them, but there must be options to be complex or at least interesting.


Its worth mentioning that some people prefer the 3E and pathfinder martial classes over 4E. Im all for interesting martial classes just not in the style of 4E.



I'm sure there are more, what do you hate about 5E?



Classes and bloated power.



I'll also note the bashing of being able to ricochet arrows, yet a lack of calling out people also being able to make meteors rain from the sky.



The game sets up an in game reason for this to be able to happen.  It's called........maaaaagic.  The game universe sets up magic to exist AND violate the physical laws of the game universe.  The game universe sets up no in game reason for some really absurd martial abilities to be able to happen, which causes a disconnect and shocks many people out of game immersion and ruins the game for them.  If it doesn't happen to you, great!  Enjoy. 


They have been setting up reasons for absurd martial abilities since the second suppliment of OD&D.




No they haven't.


So what do you call giving monks class cleric spells and explicidely stating its not magic is then?


Chi. Ki. Qi.  however you choose to spell it.  Monks use supernatural means to achieve much what they do.  Effectively, they use non-traditional magic.



It doesn't say non-traditional magic. It says "not magical".

Big Model: Creative Agenda
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th Edition
Reality Refracted: Social Contracts

My blog of random stuff 

Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke

You can have both.



Sure can. Epic exists for this very reson.

“Pride, envy, avarice - these are the sparks have set on fire the hearts of all men.” ― Dante Alighieri, Inferno

"Feelins'? Look mate, you know who has a lot of feelings? Blokes what bludgeon their wives to death with a golf trophy! Professionals have standards. Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to kill everyone you meet." ―Sniper

Many people want to play "Larger than Life" Martial Heroes. By their definition, these heroes aren't Magical, their skill is just trained so far beyond that of normal men, that their affects can verge on the supernatural. That is often the explanation for Ki/Chi/Qi powers. Non-magical/Non-Psychic powers that are just the absolute edge of human/humanoid capabilities....and beyond the edge of what is seen in the mundane world.

To some, you can argue this is just "Non-Traditional Magic" however, to many, this is just Heroic Proportions. Batman often pulls of incredible feats of physical prowess in the comicbooks, and Batman is the ultimate "Mundane" hero of comic book history. He uses superior training, to the very edge of human endurance, psychological understanding of his enemies, and technology to do what he does, but when he throws a mundane (non-computer augmented) baterang around and it ricochets 12 times, hitting all his enemies, while missing Robin and Batgirl right in the midst of the battle, beyond the aerodynamics of even a boomerang, we accept that, because he is Larger than Life. Larger than Life doesn't automatically mean miraculous or magical.

In D&D, Supernatural is the codification, as of 3e, for these kinds of things. Powers and abilities that aren't of a necessarily magical origin, but which define the physics and limitations of the "real world", while being perfectly acceptable in the fictional fantasy settings that the game is engendered to emmulate. Books, Movies, Comic-books, Myths and Legends. Many people want to believe that the human potential is higher than physics and biology states it is, and this feeds into that need.

IF you don't want to accept these kinds of powers and abilities in your game, by clearly labeling the abilities as "Supernatural" it costs you nothing at all to Ban them in your Campaigns/at your Tables. There is, however, no need for completely different classes in order to satisfy both camps in the spirit of inclusive design. Just offer up an alternate choice at these decision points, like the compromise of Feats vs Stat bumps...I may not agree with this solution, but it is an alternative solution for some people. If Ricochet is balanced out with a power or ability that you can fit into your narrow view of what a Mundane Martial Class can do, then just choose that ability. In the same level selection as Ricochet you find "Deep Wound", "Slam" and "Wide Arc", all of which are arguably reasonably mundane powers. Basically extra damage, a shield bash, or a cleave like followthrough ability.

Just remember, the word of the day is supposed to be inclusiveness, not exclusiveness...the whole "make the game my way by default, and throw everyone else's way into the options only bin, or I'm taking my toys and going home" philosophy is not productive to this stated goal! 
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RE: Supernatural Martial Classes -

A lot of times campaigns don't have room for everyone to have Ninja training.  I prefer a system that allows for more equal footing between NPCs and PCs.  I do like the idea of supernatural abilities being offered via feats.  This allows you to use them optionally where they are appropriate - along these lines I would not mind a power source listed for each feat - perhaps tie this into the primary stat for each feat.  Supernatural feats could be Con or Cha or Wis based (depending on what side of that debate the devs come down on).  If I am setting up a more medieval campaign, this would allow me to tell the players we are using feats, but supernatural power source feats need to work into your back story and need to be approved prior to the first session.

Just remember, the word of the day is supposed to be inclusiveness, not exclusiveness...the whole "make the game my way by default, and throw everyone else's way into the options only bin, or I'm taking my toys and going home" philosophy is not productive to this stated goal! 


+1
Many people want to play "Larger than Life" Martial Heroes. By their definition, these heroes aren't Magical, their skill is just trained so far beyond that of normal men, that their affects can verge on the supernatural. That is often the explanation for Ki/Chi/Qi powers. Non-magical/Non-Psychic powers that are just the absolute edge of human/humanoid capabilities....and beyond the edge of what is seen in the mundane world.



As I just posted, this is why Epic levels exist.

So now everyone can be happy!

Those who want to play Badass Normals still can, and those who want to play John Carter/Beowulf/etc. can as well! 

“Pride, envy, avarice - these are the sparks have set on fire the hearts of all men.” ― Dante Alighieri, Inferno

"Feelins'? Look mate, you know who has a lot of feelings? Blokes what bludgeon their wives to death with a golf trophy! Professionals have standards. Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to kill everyone you meet." ―Sniper

the whole "make the game my way by default,and throw everyone else's way into the options only bin,or I'm taking my toys and going home" philosophy is not productive to this stated goal!

And yet that's precisely what you do when you declare "super-hero martial powers should be included by default, and others will have the option of not including them."
the whole "make the game my way by default,and throw everyone else's way into the options only bin,or I'm taking my toys and going home" philosophy is not productive to this stated goal!

And yet that's precisely what you do when you declare "super-hero martial powers should be included by default, and others will have the option of not including them."

I'll go slow. There are 4 blocks. One red, one blue, one green, one orange.

Person one says "You get to play with the red block. If you want, you can go open the special box with blue, green, and orange, but by default, you play with the red block.

Person two says "You can play with the red, blue, green, or orange block - they are all here, take your pick. You can always choose to not play with any blocks you don't like".

If you don't see the difference, I don't know what to tell you.

And honestly, some people like LFQW, they like martials-don't-get-nice-things (even if they say "Oh I do! Just not those things. Or those things, or those or those..."). Sure, whatever. They want to play with the red block.

All we want is that the game not assume that you're playing with the red block; relegating the green, orange, and blue block to the special toy bin off in the corner/the sidebar optional rules that aren't really supported. It'd be nice if the game was designed assuming an equal share of people would be playing with any particular block. I don't care which block you play with.

But of course, that is by nature, edition warring or being a 4venger or something like that. Curse that inclusiveness! Everybody knows that the orange block is the one different block that nobody can play with because it's totally too different than the red, blue, or yellow!

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."

the one thing i love about 5th edition is the huge number of forum posters on here who wont buy it so i can read a forum and enjoy what i read. this thread is total trash and just a terrible attempt at non constructive critisim. but hey i would expect nothing less from the source ..... cant forget that passive agressive smiley

You can have both.



Sure can. Epic exists for this very reson.



Except that by this definition, wizards get to epic levels in 1/3 of the time it takes martial classesto get there.

This is an untenable solution.

The true solution is that martial classes get to do awesome stuff, and the game designers come up with an in-world explanation that both sides find satisfying.

I like Charles Atlas Superpowers myself, but I could also get behind the idea of martial characters being like reincarnated einherjar types.
the whole "make the game my way by default,and throw everyone else's way into the options only bin,or I'm taking my toys and going home" philosophy is not productive to this stated goal!

And yet that's precisely what you do when you declare "super-hero martial powers should be included by default, and others will have the option of not including them."



your reading comprehension difficulties are showing, your ignoring the whole "and throw everyone else's way into the options only bin" part of the statement.

My statement is inclusive, your options can be there, in the default part of the game, but so can our options, sure, some options will end up relogated to the Options Only Bin, but as many overall options for as many different playstyles that are supported by default, and easily not chosen/banned by those who don't want to use them, the more INCLUSIVE the game becomes.

Put a power like Ricochet in the game, and nobody is forcing you to take it if it doesn't fit your idea of the game's flavor. However, because its in the default options instead of the side bin, it means that future releases that take into account the default assumptions will have support for Ricochet, thus those who like Ricochet don't feel like they are left in a vacuum, dependent on only very specialized splat books to enhance and expand on their chosen abilities.

Historically, abilities/powers/classes/etc... that go into the Optional ONLY Bin end up supported mainly ONLY in the book that presents them initially, or in special, seperate books dedicated to those options only, and people want mainstream support for their playstyle so they aren't left to feel like the red-headed stepchildren of the edition. 
Want continued support for 4e, check this out, 4e Lives and Breaths

Check out MY eZine, Random Encounters Seuss (lordseussmd on YM)

You can have both.



Sure can. Epic exists for this very reson.



Except that by this definition, wizards get to epic levels in 1/3 of the time it takes martial classesto get there.

This is an untenable solution.

The true solution is that martial classes get to do awesome stuff, and the game designers come up with an in-world explanation that both sides find satisfying.

I like Charles Atlas Superpowers myself, but I could also get behind the idea of martial characters being like reincarnated einherjar types.



You don't see a difference between Wizard and "I AM BEOWULF!" simply becuase they both break the bonds of reality, but in staggeringly different ways?

...

I hope you are just doing that to be cute, and are not serious.


EDIT: I see from your sig that you are familiar with 4e. I take it you are familiar with the idea of "Sources" yes? 

“Pride, envy, avarice - these are the sparks have set on fire the hearts of all men.” ― Dante Alighieri, Inferno

"Feelins'? Look mate, you know who has a lot of feelings? Blokes what bludgeon their wives to death with a golf trophy! Professionals have standards. Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to kill everyone you meet." ―Sniper


You can have both.



Sure can. Epic exists for this very reson.



Except that by this definition, wizards get to epic levels in 1/3 of the time it takes martial classesto get there.

This is an untenable solution.

The true solution is that martial classes get to do awesome stuff, and the game designers come up with an in-world explanation that both sides find satisfying.

I like Charles Atlas Superpowers myself, but I could also get behind the idea of martial characters being like reincarnated einherjar types.



I agree, plus people who want Larger than Life heroes, want to get those larger than life things about the same time/at the same pace as their fellows. Everyone wants to feel relivant to the game, at least 85% of the time, sure, about 15% of the time will be different characters in the SpotLight, shining, but that 15% should rotate through your characters, so everyone gets a chance. Whether they take that chance or not, some do prefer to just support others and be the sidekicks, that's a perfectly valid mode of play, however, they should CHOOSE to be the sidekicks, and not just by choosing what class they play, they should choose it by HOW they play, but always have the option to step up and excell
Want continued support for 4e, check this out, 4e Lives and Breaths

Check out MY eZine, Random Encounters Seuss (lordseussmd on YM)

This is just absolutelly horrible game design for an RPG. 
In a narrative based game first you think what characters should be able to do, and then you devise the rules for that. Not the other way around. Never the other way around. We need explanations, things that make sense, not "excuses" for rules to exist.


Actually that's fantastic game design. Well, unless you enjoy three hour debates on the minutia of how a summoned celestial badger's burrowing works. Games should be games first. Top-down design is doable, but if you value flavor at the expense of mechanics, you end up with a ramshackle construct of grafted-on exceptions and clarifications. Take Sneak Attack in 3.5. Okay, you can deal extra damage when you're flanking because you get to attack a weakpoint. Oh wait, it doesn't work on constructs and undead, because they don't have vital organs. And it's not like you could attack their joints or just take advantage f their distraction to hit extra hard or a million other explanations, if it doesn't meet the criteria for the specific flavor inextricably entwined with your class, you're out of luck.


If you have a magic axe that flies on its own towards other targets that's one thing. There is an explanation, whether it's good or not is another matter, but there is a reason for it to happen. When you have an ability that any Fighter can take and for absolutelly NO reason at all his axes go flying around, this doesn't make any sense. Period.


I stand by the explanation that every game of D&D is actually a retelling by a bard in the distant future, so any of that can be explained by dramatic liscence. 

When you are making fiction, any kind of fiction, the distinction between "realism" and "making sense" is VERY clear. One has nothing to do with the other. People who throw the "but there is magic in the game so it's all the same thing" exucse clearly can't even make that distinction and have no idea what they're talking about.


The term you're looking for is Verisimilitude.

If I'm reading a Marvel comic book and Spider-Man can stick to walls because of his powers, and Jean Gray can bounce axes from target to target because of her Telekinetic powers that is one thing. It isn't realistic, but it MAKES SENSE in that fiction. Now if in that same comic book random people in the streets, regular everyday humans, start to walk on walls and bouncing axes for NO reason whatsoever, no explanation whatsoever, this is just a horrible attempt of fiction that doesn't make any sense.


Indeed, I remember when I ran my homebrew Marvel campaign, all my players were like "Spiderman? Iron Man? Why would we want to be awesome when we can play ORDINARY HUMANS AWWWWWWWW YISS!" 

The Fighter is just that. A fighter. A guy who is highly trained and is very good at fighting. People who train to fight don't gain Telekinetic supernatural abilities of making axes and spears fly from one target to another.


According to one specific flavor interpretation. For others see Saito from Zero's Familiar, Steiner from Final Fantasy IX, Link from The Legend of Zelda, Alex from Lunar Legend, etc. 


Abilities like Ricochet were made only for mechanics-sake. Something like "Oh, the Fighter needs some way to hit more than one ranged target with Expertise, so let's make the mechanics and then find whatever excuse for it to exist."

This is plain terrible design for an RPG. 


Again, no it's not. Games are built on rules. Flavor is certainly important, but rules without flavor gives you chess (Which admittedly has flavor, as it's essentially impossible not to, but it's about as dry as flavor can get). Flavor without rules gives you everyone shouting
"bang bang bang, I killed you."
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56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
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144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
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198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
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Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
your reading comprehension difficulties are showing,your ignoring the whole "and throw everyone else's way into the options only bin" part of the statement.

The speed with which you anf blacksheepcannibal jump to personal insults really underscores the relative "merit" of your position, I think.

There are two mutually exclusive sides. One declares martial characters should excel at martial abilities alone. The other wants them to also have supernatural abilities. Both sides are arguing that their position should be the default of the "core" game, with the other considered an option.

Arguing that your side had some kind of moral superiority is disingenuous at best. It's certainly not the position consistent with the stated design of the core game, which is to be a minimalist "that which can't be removed and still have it be D&D" design.
crocodile tears, etc.

Stop the H4TE


According to one specific flavor interpretation. For others see Saito from Zero's Familiar, Steiner from Final Fantasy IX, Link from The Legend of Zelda, Alex from Lunar Legend, etc. 



You are aware that different games have different genres/tropes/ideas that they are trying to convey, right?

I mean, as bad as it is...if you want to play a JRPG style game, D&D probably isn't the game for you. And there is nothing wrong with that.

D&D has always been psudeo-melting-pot-Europe, with magic and monsters. 

“Pride, envy, avarice - these are the sparks have set on fire the hearts of all men.” ― Dante Alighieri, Inferno

"Feelins'? Look mate, you know who has a lot of feelings? Blokes what bludgeon their wives to death with a golf trophy! Professionals have standards. Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to kill everyone you meet." ―Sniper

I don't hate D&DN, but I do hate how imbalanced it is. Right now, D&DN is not a game I would ever consider buying or playing. I hope that changes before release. 
I could offer a break down of the parts where D&DN falls apart and stops being functional, where other games that are similar do not. I honestly don't feel like doing that, because I don't think you'll care or listen.

But you like it, so obviously it is good. Whatever.

All I know is that from my personal playtest experience, D&DN works pretty well as a system.

Point made and proven.

3) Of course D&D Next is a product. WOTC produces it. It doesn't have anything to do with being sold.

Designer testbed cars are not real products. They aren't meant to be distributed to the general public and consumed the way normal cars are.

I don't see how in your mind "ongoing playtest" and "distributed product" are the same thing, so I can't imagine I can tell you why that's ridiculous. At this point, it's not even worth it to try.

In the meantime, D&DN does not do what the devs say 5e will do (possibly yet).

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."


According to one specific flavor interpretation. For others see Saito from Zero's Familiar, Steiner from Final Fantasy IX, Link from The Legend of Zelda, Alex from Lunar Legend, etc. 



You are aware that different games have different genres/tropes/ideas that they are trying to convey, right?

I mean, as bad as it is...if you want to play a JRPG style game, D&D probably isn't the game for you. And there is nothing wrong with that.

D&D has always been psudeo-melting-pot-Europe, with magic and monsters. 


True enough, but , but it's easy enough to reflavor. Cross out "Bastard Sword" and write "Katana" and you're halfway there . Whereas if you make dumb tacked on rules to make sure the class adheres to a singular rigid flavor, it's still doable, but a lot less resonant. Hell, I could probably even build a serviceable Saito in 3.5 using some of the whackier feats (Being one natural 1 away from instant death at later levels notwithstanding). 4e would be pretty easy too. But if we're gonna restrict the fighter solely to "Guy who hits stuff with other stuff really hard," he becomes a lot less doable. Maybe if you reflavored some of the missed attacks, but still nowhere near what you see when he starts busting out his dailies at the end of Season 2. 


For comparison, say Warlock players had to prick themselves and get a drop of their blood on their character sheet to use eldritch blast. Sure it might be cool and flavorful and such to some, but I imagine a lot of people would stop playing warlocks. Plus it sorta pigeonholes the class into one specific execution of the idea.

Also Oriental Adventures .

I guess the TL:DR version is while obviously they can't please everyone with everything, there's no reason to force every class into a rigid specific singular definition without any wiggle room either.

Zammm = Batman. Bronies unite. "I'd call you a genius, but I'm in the room."
It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.
Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
Huh. More mechanical hard-wiring leads to a smaller range of character concepts and player-determined flexible character design. Whoda thunk?

Also Oriental Adventures .



I'm glad you brought up OA, as it kind of makes my point for me.

They took the D&D chasis, and decided that because so many people wanted to run Eastern-style games with them, that they would write up new classes, skills, other mechanics, weapons, alignment systems, etc in order to meet the tropes of that style of game.

So, thanks for that. 

“Pride, envy, avarice - these are the sparks have set on fire the hearts of all men.” ― Dante Alighieri, Inferno

"Feelins'? Look mate, you know who has a lot of feelings? Blokes what bludgeon their wives to death with a golf trophy! Professionals have standards. Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to kill everyone you meet." ―Sniper


The game sets up an in game reason for this to be able to happen.  It's called........maaaaagic.


In-game reason for arrow ricochet=skill.



Nope.  The game sets up the ability.  It does not set up a reason why physics are so absurd that the ability works reliably.



There is no magic in Ricochet. The Fighter isn't a magic-using class. The ability is just ridiculous. Period.
You throw an axe, it crushes someone skull, and then for no reason at all it goes flying in another direction to crush someone else's skull.

The ability is just utterly silly. And people who throw the "no realism" excuse around for an "anything goes" are just silly. It's a poor attempt to find an excuse for an ability to exist that was created in the first place only for mechanics sake. 

This is just absolutelly horrible game design for an RPG. In a narrative based game first you think what characters should be able to do, and then you devise the rules for that. Not the other way around. Never the other way around. We need explanations, things that make sense, not "excuses" for rules to exist. If you have a magic axe that flies on its own towards other targets that's one thing. There is an explanation, whether it's good or not is another matter, but there is a reason for it to happen. When you have an ability that any Fighter can take and for absolutelly NO reason at all his axes go flying around, this doesn't make any sense. Period.

When you are making fiction, any kind of fiction, the distinction between "realism" and "making sense" is VERY clear. One has nothing to do with the other. People who throw the "but there is magic in the game so it's all the same thing" exucse clearly can't even make that distinction and have no idea what they're talking about.

If I'm reading a Marvel comic book and Spider-Man can stick to walls because of his powers, and Jean Gray can bounce axes from target to target because of her Telekinetic powers that is one thing. It isn't realistic, but it MAKES SENSE in that fiction. Now if in that same comic book random people in the streets, regular everyday humans, start to walk on walls and bouncing axes for NO reason whatsoever, no explanation whatsoever, this is just a horrible attempt of fiction that doesn't make any sense. 

The Fighter is just that. A fighter. A guy who is highly trained and is very good at fighting. People who train to fight don't gain Telekinetic supernatural abilities of making axes and spears fly from one target to another.


Abilities like Ricochet were made only for mechanics-sake. Something like "Oh, the Fighter needs some way to hit more than one ranged target with Expertise, so let's make the mechanics and then find whatever excuse for it to exist."

This is plain terrible design for an RPG. 



Yes becaue its completely impossible to hit a guy with the flat of the hand axe blade and bounce off and stick in someone else or to shoot an arrow in a way that is slices the edge of an arm and then continues on to the hit the monster behind them.

Its almost like people around here have zero imagination...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Huh. More mechanical hard-wiring leads to a smaller range of character concepts and player-determined flexible character design. Whoda thunk?


It doesn't lead to less concepts, just makes it harder to execute those concepts. For example, say I want to play Gene from Godhand in 3.5. He's pretty clearly a monk. He's also pretty clearly Chaotic OH WAIT MONKS CAN'T BE CHAOTIC THANKS FOR PLAYING (Ignoring the fact that you can just write "lawful" on the character sheet and act however you want anyway, the rules as written forbid you from playing that character concept. And not for good reason (As opposed to the rules preventing you from playing Cthulhu, at first level anyway). Plus you can still do it, it's just loses lot of it's resonance and makes him more like you're sterotypical uptight stoic monks).



Also Oriental Adventures .



I'm glad you brought up OA, as it kind of makes my point for me.

They took the D&D chasis, and decided that because so many people wanted to run Eastern-style games with them, that they would write up new classes, skills, other mechanics, weapons, alignment systems, etc in order to meet the tropes of that style of game.

So, thanks for that. 



Indeed. You want to play a Samurai in a top-down game? Buy a supplement with the samurai class. In a bottom-up game? Play a fighter or paladin and reflavor it. I guess both can be fun, but I prefer the creative freedom of the second one.

Sure you can try to reflavor the former scenario, but when all your class abilities are based on the flavor of a specific archetype, it feels a lot more forced, though admittedly it's less obvious when dealing with classes with such exciting features as "once per combat, you can hit two guys at once."


Its almost like people around here have zero imagination...



Well that would explain why they need their flavor hard-wired into the rules for them :33.
Zammm = Batman. Bronies unite. "I'd call you a genius, but I'm in the room."
It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.
Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.


However, what's the problem with having the ability in the game for Fighters to choose? Okay, so you want your Fighters to be heavily training martial warriors and nothing else.  I'm cool with that.



Me too.

But maybe someone else wants to play a Fantasy Warrior, throwing boulders with his STR 20, shrugging off fireballs with his high HP, and bouncing ranged weapons. The latter case is a Supernatural Fighter. He's not "magical", but he's a great warrrior in a fantasy setting and can therefore do the normally impossible.



Supernatural is effectively magical.  A synonym for magical is miracle, which itself is a synonym for supernatural.  A supernatural fighter is using abilities beyond the normal to do what he does.  Effectively using a specialized telekinesis or somethig to cause ricochets.

I think there's room for both.



So do I.  It's called different classes.  Some martial classes will be mundane.  Other martial classes will be supernatural.

 




Ok, this is just getting ludicrous now...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVXhzuwdpxI - Not real life, but a realistic 3D game that uses physics shows how it would be possible

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIVQyXq_q0g - The two balloon one, because apparently people are blind.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKY9FpRGyJI - Not rricochet, but 11 arrows in the ground before the first one hits, less than 6 seconds for 11 arrows. For future Rain of Arrows multi-attack arguments.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLk1v5bSFPw - 12 shots in 3 seconds.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgl-KQt0-AI&NR=1... - 200 yards with pinpoint accuracy.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN6DXnTt-5A - Ricochet off a board into the target.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=T39VlHP0oMw - Double ricochet.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXkGNypNm5M - Shoots a diamond ring.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbQezcKi1pc - Mirror shot (shoots behind him)

Any questions? Yes? Ok:

mathewsinc.com/media/products-video-gall... - Not sure if this is a parody or not.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricochet - The physics behind a ricochet.

At this point after viewing real people ricochet several times repeatedly shoot behind them and shoot with precision accuracy and shoot 11 arrows in 3 seconds. Then reading the physics behind it. If you still want to get rid of the ricochet maneuver for fighters, your just plain in the "fighter's can't have nice things' camp. Because its physically done in real life over and over and over...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.

3) Of course D&D Next is a product. WOTC produces it. It doesn't have anything to do with being sold.

Designer testbed cars are not real products. They aren't meant to be distributed to the general public and consumed the way normal cars are.

I don't see how in your mind "ongoing playtest" and "distributed product" are the same thing, so I can't imagine I can tell you why that's ridiculous. At this point, it's not even worth it to try.



It's a product because that's the definition of the word product. Go look up the word in the dictionary. It has nothing to do with the scope of the distribution audience. If you're not sure where to find a dictionary, try going to www.google.com. They have a pretty good selection of information that's widely available and free to access. I would stay away from Urban Dictionary though.

Rules for martial and magical duels: I challenge you to a duel!

Ideas for Improving Druid Wildshape

Embracing the D&DNext saving throw system: Why 6 Saves are better than 3

Ideas for Fighting Styles!

Improving Armor with Ramzour's Armor Table

Improving the skill system with Ramzour's Character Skill System

Rules for a simple non-XP based leveling up system, using the Proficiency Bonus

Convert your Wizard to Mana Points with Ramzour's Mage Mana Point System.

Giving classes iconic abilities that don't break the game: Ramzour's Class Defining Ability system.

the one thing i love about 5th edition is the huge number of forum posters on here who wont buy it so i can read a forum and enjoy what i read. this thread is total trash and just a terrible attempt at non constructive critisim. but hey i would expect nothing less from the source ..... cant forget that passive agressive smiley



Wait, who's trolling? May want to check a mirror...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Many people want to play "Larger than Life" Martial Heroes. By their definition, these heroes aren't Magical, their skill is just trained so far beyond that of normal men, that their affects can verge on the supernatural. That is often the explanation for Ki/Chi/Qi powers. Non-magical/Non-Psychic powers that are just the absolute edge of human/humanoid capabilities....and beyond the edge of what is seen in the mundane world.

To some, you can argue this is just "Non-Traditional Magic" however, to many, this is just Heroic Proportions. Batman often pulls of incredible feats of physical prowess in the comicbooks, and Batman is the ultimate "Mundane" hero of comic book history. He uses superior training, to the very edge of human endurance, psychological understanding of his enemies, and technology to do what he does, but when he throws a mundane (non-computer augmented) baterang around and it ricochets 12 times, hitting all his enemies, while missing Robin and Batgirl right in the midst of the battle, beyond the aerodynamics of even a boomerang, we accept that, because he is Larger than Life. Larger than Life doesn't automatically mean miraculous or magical.

In D&D, Supernatural is the codification, as of 3e, for these kinds of things. Powers and abilities that aren't of a necessarily magical origin, but which define the physics and limitations of the "real world", while being perfectly acceptable in the fictional fantasy settings that the game is engendered to emmulate. Books, Movies, Comic-books, Myths and Legends. Many people want to believe that the human potential is higher than physics and biology states it is, and this feeds into that need.

IF you don't want to accept these kinds of powers and abilities in your game, by clearly labeling the abilities as "Supernatural" it costs you nothing at all to Ban them in your Campaigns/at your Tables. There is, however, no need for completely different classes in order to satisfy both camps in the spirit of inclusive design. Just offer up an alternate choice at these decision points, like the compromise of Feats vs Stat bumps...I may not agree with this solution, but it is an alternative solution for some people. If Ricochet is balanced out with a power or ability that you can fit into your narrow view of what a Mundane Martial Class can do, then just choose that ability. In the same level selection as Ricochet you find "Deep Wound", "Slam" and "Wide Arc", all of which are arguably reasonably mundane powers. Basically extra damage, a shield bash, or a cleave like followthrough ability.

Just remember, the word of the day is supposed to be inclusiveness, not exclusiveness...the whole "make the game my way by default, and throw everyone else's way into the options only bin, or I'm taking my toys and going home" philosophy is not productive to this stated goal! 

well said!

Rules for martial and magical duels: I challenge you to a duel!

Ideas for Improving Druid Wildshape

Embracing the D&DNext saving throw system: Why 6 Saves are better than 3

Ideas for Fighting Styles!

Improving Armor with Ramzour's Armor Table

Improving the skill system with Ramzour's Character Skill System

Rules for a simple non-XP based leveling up system, using the Proficiency Bonus

Convert your Wizard to Mana Points with Ramzour's Mage Mana Point System.

Giving classes iconic abilities that don't break the game: Ramzour's Class Defining Ability system.

Q) What's the point in saying what you hate about D&D Next is "classes"? That's a feature of the game, period, and is going nowhere. Classless systems exist : they are not Dungeons and Dragons though. Have to scratch my head at some of the complaints here. Some people in this forum proposed removing the D20 from the game, and having auto-hit powers, and then we really have jumped the shark at the utility of this forum to advance new ideas or anything of possible value to the designers.

So many ideas are just non-starters. If every mundane class can heal back to full after each battle like last time, that's it, I'm done with this game. Thankfully they've brought some sanity back to the game rules. Pokemon munchkinism is good for kids, there's already two editions that cater to that (one much more eggregiously than the other, but still), can we at least stop the whining that surges are dead? Or that we have classes at all? I mean, geeez. This is D&D, people, not MtG or Wow.



Pokemon munchkinism? Please quit trolling my thread...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.


It doesn't say non-traditional magic. It says "not magical".



You're flat out wrong.  Read monks.  It actually specifically says magical. 

The Path of Stone's Endurance

The path of stone's endurance teaches initiates to infuse their ki with the magic of earth and stone.




Touch of Stony Doom

When you hit a creature with an unarmed attack, you can expend a use of your ki to magically cause its flesh to become like brittle stone.

   

The game sets up an in game reason for this to be able to happen.  It's called........maaaaagic.


In-game reason for arrow ricochet=skill.



Nope.  The game sets up the ability.  It does not set up a reason why physics are so absurd that the ability works reliably.



There is no magic in Ricochet. The Fighter isn't a magic-using class. The ability is just ridiculous. Period.
You throw an axe, it crushes someone skull, and then for no reason at all it goes flying in another direction to crush someone else's skull.

The ability is just utterly silly. And people who throw the "no realism" excuse around for an "anything goes" are just silly. It's a poor attempt to find an excuse for an ability to exist that was created in the first place only for mechanics sake. 

This is just absolutelly horrible game design for an RPG. In a narrative based game first you think what characters should be able to do, and then you devise the rules for that. Not the other way around. Never the other way around. We need explanations, things that make sense, not "excuses" for rules to exist. If you have a magic axe that flies on its own towards other targets that's one thing. There is an explanation, whether it's good or not is another matter, but there is a reason for it to happen. When you have an ability that any Fighter can take and for absolutelly NO reason at all his axes go flying around, this doesn't make any sense. Period.

When you are making fiction, any kind of fiction, the distinction between "realism" and "making sense" is VERY clear. One has nothing to do with the other. People who throw the "but there is magic in the game so it's all the same thing" exucse clearly can't even make that distinction and have no idea what they're talking about.

If I'm reading a Marvel comic book and Spider-Man can stick to walls because of his powers, and Jean Gray can bounce axes from target to target because of her Telekinetic powers that is one thing. It isn't realistic, but it MAKES SENSE in that fiction. Now if in that same comic book random people in the streets, regular everyday humans, start to walk on walls and bouncing axes for NO reason whatsoever, no explanation whatsoever, this is just a horrible attempt of fiction that doesn't make any sense. 

The Fighter is just that. A fighter. A guy who is highly trained and is very good at fighting. People who train to fight don't gain Telekinetic supernatural abilities of making axes and spears fly from one target to another.


Abilities like Ricochet were made only for mechanics-sake. Something like "Oh, the Fighter needs some way to hit more than one ranged target with Expertise, so let's make the mechanics and then find whatever excuse for it to exist."

This is plain terrible design for an RPG. 



Yes becaue its completely impossible to hit a guy with the flat of the hand axe blade and bounce off and stick in someone else or to shoot an arrow in a way that is slices the edge of an arm and then continues on to the hit the monster behind them.

Its almost like people around here have zero imagination...Smile



Reliably on a daily or encounter basis?  Not a chance.  Once in a blue moon?  Sure. 


However, what's the problem with having the ability in the game for Fighters to choose? Okay, so you want your Fighters to be heavily training martial warriors and nothing else.  I'm cool with that.



Me too.

But maybe someone else wants to play a Fantasy Warrior, throwing boulders with his STR 20, shrugging off fireballs with his high HP, and bouncing ranged weapons. The latter case is a Supernatural Fighter. He's not "magical", but he's a great warrrior in a fantasy setting and can therefore do the normally impossible.



Supernatural is effectively magical.  A synonym for magical is miracle, which itself is a synonym for supernatural.  A supernatural fighter is using abilities beyond the normal to do what he does.  Effectively using a specialized telekinesis or somethig to cause ricochets.

I think there's room for both.



So do I.  It's called different classes.  Some martial classes will be mundane.  Other martial classes will be supernatural.

 




Ok, this is just getting ludicrous now...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVXhzuwdpxI - Not real life, but a realistic 3D game that uses physics shows how it would be possible

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIVQyXq_q0g - The two balloon one, because apparently people are blind.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKY9FpRGyJI - Not rricochet, but 11 arrows in the ground before the first one hits, less than 6 seconds for 11 arrows. For future Rain of Arrows multi-attack arguments.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLk1v5bSFPw - 12 shots in 3 seconds.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgl-KQt0-AI&NR=1... - 200 yards with pinpoint accuracy.



I only looked at the first 5 and since they were all useless, I didn't bother with the rest.  The first is a game and games are about the "cool", not about the physics, so it can reliably do something that cannot be reliably done.  The second took 2 rounds (12 seconds) once he started to draw back the arrow, required a calm setting where nothing was trying to kill him, and required a pre-set HARD WOOD plank that wasn't moving in combat, set at the correct angle.  Not going to happen in combat.  The third one was 12 arrows shot up into the air.  Big deal.  The fourth and fifth were guns.  That invalidates them right out of the box.
It's a product because that's the definition of the word product. Go look up the word in the dictionary. It has nothing to do with the scope of the distribution audience. If you're not sure where to find a dictionary, try going to www.google.com. They have a pretty good selection of information that's widely available and free to access. I would stay away from Urban Dictionary though.

So you don't understand the difference between a playtest and a product offered for general consumption.

You can argue semantics all you want, many economists have been doing exactly that for a long time, but I don't consider it appropriate. Let's clear the dust:

1: 5e is a future product; it will be mass produced and distributed to the public with the intention of satisfying a desire within that public for just such a product; in exchange, that public will give WotC money.

2: D&DN is a playtest of a game; it is not a final version, not a finished product, and in no way is it distributed to the mainstream public with the intention of satisfying a desire within that public; it is instead intended to satisfy (theoretically) a desire for WotC to gain feedback from the audience.

You can disagree with either point 1 or 2, but I don't really see how you can back that up. You can call D&DN a product if you want. You can call a car a tank, a fish a bird, or whatever. I don't really care what you call things. Calling D&DN a finished product is silly though. Either way, it's an argument of semantics, and totally beside the point so I won't bother to address it again. I am disappointed that I had to address such a fundamentally basic concept to begin with.

Now that we have that out of the way, if you view this playtest as a final product, it is severely wanting. The lack of higher level content, the very slim selection of adversaries, the short selection of races and classes availible is really not arguable; other games do the fantasy genre plenty well while providing a greater selection and more highly polished rules and presentation.

That you don't see that is...something.

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."