What do you hate about D&D:Next?

Why do  you hate D&D:Next?



  • Fantasy Vietnam - I can't play a heroic character from first level, I have to start somewhere around level 5 to get that feeling in 5E.

  • Options - I need interesting options at every turn. During creation, interaction, exploration, and combat. We don't get that in 5E.

  • Non-Vancian Caster - I need a non-vancian caster or I can't play a Wizard the way I like. Its extremely simple to fix this. There's no excuse that it isn't fixed.

  • Interesting options for martial classes - My players demand interesting martial classes that are effective and equal to the Wizard in usefulness. Something 4E did well, but previous editions did not. I don't care if there are simple options for those that want them, but there must be options to be complex or at least interesting.

  • Monster Math - The monster math is so far off at this point that there is little point in testing anything else. You can't tell if a feature is a good one if the best option is to do a basic attack or cantrip to end the fight faster.


I'm sure there are more, what do you hate about 5E? Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Spells - While I want to avoid overpowered casters, only getting one spell per level is again a waste...

Divine Healing only - No single group should have the monopoly on the glorous path of the Healbot.


I like the restricted higher level spells. It helps keep ranger and paladin spell casting from becoming as marginalized as older editions.

Bards were arcane healers so we'll see if they remain arcane but hit dice healing and herbalism are not restricted to divine healing either. We don't need healbots.

I don't mind heavily restricted higher levels of spellcasting, but 2 spells per level at level 20 seems much more rational than 1.  Again, at only one spell per level, design time and energy just becomes wasted.

There are classes we haven't seen that may get non-divine healing, I agree.  But really I think all roles/foci should have a healing option.  Psionicists can use telekinesis to bind wounds, a martial class can promote adrenaline rushes in their allies, etc.

The Healbot quip was just me being silly.  I figured some levity now and then was a good idea since I was typing up over a dozen reasons why I disliked D&D Next.


Now, the question becomes: are some dead levels, strictly speaking, a bad thing?  We hold that balance (at least in a broad sense) is a good thing, and at some points diversity of options can be weighed against the potency.

Let's take the 2 minute Fighter and Wizard from my opening post.  The Wizard, by definition, has no dead levels in his progression: every level gets a single Spell Known and many get one or more spell slots.  The Fighter, by your definition probably has 5: the levels where a save bonus is the primary gain: the other 15 levels either grant a new Expertise Die (which is quite powerful as an option, much like spell slots.), or a new maneuver to use those dice on.  At the end of their progression the fighter has 10 dice * 7 maneuvers to use them on (somewhere between encounter and round-by-round as a resource), the wizard has 24 known spells to fit to a like number of slots.  I'm not entirely sure which has more legal ability outlays

Do the 5 dead levels there make the fighter bad?  Is the man with +5 hit/saves worse off for that being part of his progression?  I for one think it is better to have a clean and clear progression than to pick up scraps and add them in just to prevent a dead level. 



Nah, I actually think there is a place for a vanilla fighter in the game. Mostly because I like Improv combat.  However, I do like the idea of non-combat pillar offerings in the class progression.  It can drive character concept.  I wouldn't call it bad but the vanilla fighter is an acquired taste that most modernists dismiss as boring.


I think a good degree of my opposition to dead-level-busting can be drawn from looking at some Late 3.5 class design.  Warlocks inexplicably get some token DR and other little abilities in their progression (their Use Magic Device plus might be one, but that's such a useful skill it got remembered).  at 17th level, Favored Souls sprout wings.  Awesome, but... why?  Why does every god just add wings to their champion at 17th level?  It's an ability I use... but it feels so miserably tacked on!  You know it was there just because somebody said "you know, this class doesn't get enough shinies at 17th.  Find something to put on the progression there".  From an integrity-of-design standpoint, it makes no sense.

The online enhancement articles "Dead Levels" which added minor class features to fill such levels for other classes, were even worse.  For instance, Swashbucklers learned and then imptoved upon "Seduce to learn secret" -- because apparently everyone with a mobile and pervceptive figiting style ought to be charming and loose.  Of course, you could always neglect to use it (you could even neglect to take Gather Information, which the ability required... It's not like concentration/arcana on a mage, there's no reason any given member of the class actually needs that skill) but it would still be there.

I'm not against progressions that try to spread abilities niceley, but I do think that elegance is a good goal...  higher than the goal of totally abolishing dead levels




I do oppose ticky-tack options added for the sake of filling up space.  And I often wonder why things arbitrarily land on certain levels, however, I think as the game matures there should be options focusing on combat, interraction, and exploration features instead of blank spots.

I am not familiar with the online enhancement articles and I am all for elegance.  Elegance without Homogeneity!

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

Spells - While I want to avoid overpowered casters, only getting one spell per level is again a waste...

Divine Healing only - No single group should have the monopoly on the glorous path of the Healbot.


I like the restricted higher level spells. It helps keep ranger and paladin spell casting from becoming as marginalized as older editions.

Bards were arcane healers so we'll see if they remain arcane but hit dice healing and herbalism are not restricted to divine healing either. We don't need healbots.

I don't mind heavily restricted higher levels of spellcasting, but 2 spells per level at level 20 seems much more rational than 1.  Again, at only one spell per level, design time and energy just becomes wasted.

There are classes we haven't seen that may get non-divine healing, I agree.  But really I think all roles/foci should have a healing option.  Psionicists can use telekinesis to bind wounds, a martial class can promote adrenaline rushes in their allies, etc.

The Healbot quip was just me being silly.  I figured some levity now and then was a good idea since I was typing up over a dozen reasons why I disliked D&D Next.


Doh!  I missed the levity.  /signed for levity.

I'll stick with liking the spell restrictions as is.  They seem like a hybrid of vancian spells and daily powers that way.  I don't expect everyone to agree so not a biggie.

EDIT:  If there is anything I don't like it's holding on to alignments.
oh man, i lol'd in the first pages over the vietnam debacle.

On that topic: I like gritty, so low level play for me is really fun in any game. It's what actually pushed me away from 4e at first (which I've now embraced and waiting to play).

So far Next is so-so. I'm assuming that there's a lot more material they haven't released, because I like to be optimistic about gaming things...if I wasn't...well then, my entire life would be in shambles and I'd go insane.

-When I first saw advantage/disadvantage, I liked the concept. I don't so much after playing with it for a while. I'm now seeing the limitations of bounded accuracy. It's much easier for me to work with number inflation and have a natural progression. (Even though I despise number inflation)
-I DEFINITELY don't like how resistance/vulnerability works. Way too powerful.
-Barbarians getting sturdier while raging? I mean, I guess I get it. You're so mad you shrug off pain. But that hasn't been the history of the d&d barbarian.
-Carrying limit. I don't think I've ever seen anybody address this on here. STR x 10? Are you serious? 10 STR can carry 100lbs unencumbered, 200 lbs disadvantaged. Can push/pull/lift 5x unencumbered weight?? That's ridiculous.
-Rogue class. Sneak attack is weird. I don't understand why it grants disadvantage. I'd like to see the class move back to 'thief'. In my eyes, they're trying to make it a combat powerhouse, I think that's weird.
-Cantrips seem really strong.
-They don't include your own personal Chris Perkins DM in each copy.

Now, the question becomes: are some dead levels, strictly speaking, a bad thing?


I don't think they're bad in the big picture, but it's kind of unsatisfying to gain one of them. For a comparison, try playing Earthbound. Note how you feel when you slough your way through incredibly misnamed Peaceful Rest Valley, and gain a hard earned level only to get like +1 hP and +1 offense for your efforts (Granted, the Oh baby stat increases sort of make up for it, but it's still annoying when it happens) .
For instance, Swashbucklers learned and then imptoved upon "Seduce to learn secret" -- because apparently everyone with a mobile and pervceptive figiting style ought to be charming and loose.  


Well, that is sort of a staple of the swashbuckler archetype. Derring do and rugged adventure and such. Really that's more an argument in favor of keeping flavor mutable, rather than trying to hard code it into the rules (Alignment )

Zammm = Batman.

It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.

The Pony Co. 

Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
If I lived in some kind of tiny box that shielded the approximately ten kjillion d20 fantasy games that exist from me, I'd be more excited. It's only possible to get so excited, however, for a system that compares unfavorably to so much of what already exists. D&D isn't the only game in town, and there's no reason to settle for mediocrity just because it's called D&D.

It's possible - maybe even probable - that the final product will do something, anything, anything at all to distinguish itself even a little bit from the pack*, but I feel like I've already given a pile of generic ho-hum more time than it deserves because it's called D&D.

*I expect it will have higher production values, at least, but that only sells me so far. 
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
Well, it's a LONG list.

Low starting HP.
Lack of options/no 4e options.
no Non-Vancian Caster
Alignment mechanics.
hour short rests.
Advantage/disadvantage everywhere. (it'd be like is much more limited)
Skill system (all of it)
Bounded accuracy
Apprentice Tier (should be level 0 optional like other editions)
Saving Throws vs Static Defenses
Feats(need more of them and gained more often/no starting feats)
power disparity between Casters and Non-caster


So far I have no likes really though some things look promising.
I really do feel lied to. You can twist it and turn it all you like but the bottom line is they misled us into thinking that all of the character classes from previous PHB1s would be in 5E PHB1. All along they had no intention of including all of the PHB1 classes from previous editions.

Yeah stand there wringing your hands over semantics. I'm done trusting them. They want me to buy 5E? They can fire everyone involved in that lie. Starting with Mearls. Or at least have them apologize for it.

Otherwise I'll never be able to trust them with my money again. THAT'S the thing I hate most about D&D Next. The devs don't trust us, they don't like us, and they don't respect us. And that needs to change.

Stop the H4TE

I really do feel lied to. You can twist it and turn it all you like but the bottom line is they misled us into thinking that all of the character classes from previous PHB1s would be in 5E PHB1. All along they had no intention of including all of the PHB1 classes from previous editions.

Yeah stand there wringing your hands over semantics. I'm done trusting them. They want me to buy 5E? They can fire everyone involved in that lie. Starting with Mearls. Or at least have them apologize for it.

Otherwise I'll never be able to trust them with my money again. THAT'S the thing I hate most about D&D Next. The devs don't trust us, they don't like us, and they don't respect us. And that needs to change.



To be fair...we as a community are very hard to like, trust and respect.

I have yet to find a fanbase that is more childish, narcissistic, venomous, unpleasable and ridiculously entitled as we are.

WotC is on the road to publishing a bad game I feel...but it's ultimately their right to do so. They will reap the reward of a commercial failure for their efforts, and then move on to the next thing. They are under no obligation to crucify themselves for our displeasure, no matter how much we cry out for their blood.

WotC is on the road to publishing a bad game I feel...but it's ultimately their right to do so. They will reap the reward of a commercial failure for their efforts, and then move on to the next thing. They are under no obligation to crucify themselves for our displeasure, no matter how much we cry out for their blood.



All this is true except the part of moving on to the next thing.  I am getting the very distinct impression that if Next isn't successful, then as a Wotc commercial product there won't be a DND (at least as a TTRPG) for a very long time (if ever).

If the devs want to avoid that, then they had better start understanding why their customers don't like them very much any more.  While they have no obligation to crucify themselves over our displeasure, we have no obligation to buy anything they make either.  It's very much a two way street.

-Polaris
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />1)  Like the last edition, Next is too focused on combat balance in terms of class development.  Basically, classes have been balanced into bland monotony.  I'll stick with the editions and rpgs where class role development was geared towards class roles as they would appear in a traditional works of fantasy fiction rather than based on MMO style roles.  Editions/systems where fighters are the martial class with the best martial damage and defense, not just MMO style tanks.  Where thieves are characters specialized in explorational tasks, not MMO style DPS.  Where clerics are supportful mace-swinging, god fearing, healers and bane of the undead, and not a single classed version of a gish character.  And where wizards haven't been reduced to a novelty act capable only of parlor tricks that clear weak fodder in combat, and make trivial tasks a little more convenient during exploration.  I prefer the full vancian casters of AD&D, or at least 3rd edition.  Athough an improvement over last edition, magic still doesn't feel like magic.  There's no longer any awe to it.  It's just another bland class.



First of all, traditional fantasy fiction doesn't have class roles - it is a narrative vehicle whereas D&D is a game, and a team sport at that. People should stop trying to treat the game like it's a novel, because novels aren't subject to math and probability.

Furthermore, of course classes need to be balanced against eachother - because that's what class based systems are FOR. D&D is a team sport, and demonstrably so. We know this to be true because of the game's focus on parties of adventurers. As a team sport, each character should get to contribute meaningfully to challenges, even if the fighter can't out talk the bard, out lore the wizard, or out sneak the rogue. You can stillprotect niches while expanding other classes options. Just sayin'.

So yeah...4E gave everyone the capability to contribute in combat challenges. What the game needs to do is find a way to include the whole party in exploration and social challenges the way 4E did for combat. Make it about the TEAM.

And magic in D&D has never been mysterious or puissant. It has always been ubiquitous, bureaucratic and utterly reliable. A fireball spell will pretty much always produce the same general effect, everytime it is cast. Let's just stop pretending that D&D magic is anything more enigmatic and awe-inspiring than a tax form.


2)  Next is a fist-full-o-dice edition.  In the earliest play tests, I was happy to see no dependency on the battle grid hard-coded into the system like the past couple of editions.  This went a long way toward streamlining play by only using it as a future modular option.  However, a degree of the fluidity of combat gained was lost when expertise/martial dice was added to the system.  Now every turn consists of rolling a fist full of dice, chasing them around the table, and herding them, then an exercise in boring basic math.



So how did you solve the problem of wizards rolling a bunch of dice in your AD&D games?


I'll be sticking Dungeon Crawl Classics and Labyrinth Lord. Or to AD&D where D&D is concerned.  WotC panders too much to the MMO kids for 5th to be worth a damn in my book.



The MMO kids have plenty to offer the game, just like you and me. Also, MMO's have a ever expanding audience while we RPG'ers are inexorably dying of renal failure. If WotC could get  WoW numbers and all it would take was sacrificng their current fanbase, they would jettison all of us in a heartbeat and they would be right to do it. Fortunately, this hobby still tends to attract people looking for particular outlets that D&D provides, while it is lost on the rest of the MMO crowd and so it will ever be.


..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />All this is true except the part of moving on to the next thing.  I am getting the very distinct impression that if Next isn't successful, then as a Wotc commercial product there won't be a DND (at least as a TTRPG) for a very long time (if ever).



I meant that the designersand developers would move on to the next thing, not the game. Of course the game gets mothballed for a few years. Maybe that's a good thing. There are plenty of other games out there to keep us busy, as well as lively 4E, Pathfinder and OSR fanbases.

If it were up to me, there wouldn't be a D&D next. I'd shelve the whole line and let the community fight out the edition wars for the next few years, then quietly slip a new editon aimed squarely at children onto the shelves of the Class E. Professor and Target, but that's just me.


If the devs want to avoid that, then they had better start understanding why their customers don't like them very much any more.  While they have no obligation to crucify themselves over our displeasure, we have no obligation to buy anything they make either.  It's very much a two way street.



Exactly. We don't have to buy it. They don't have to apologize. Everything works out.

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />1)  Like the last edition, Next is too focused on combat balance in terms of class development.  Basically, classes have been balanced into bland monotony.  I'll stick with the editions and rpgs where class role development was geared towards class roles as they would appear in a traditional works of fantasy fiction rather than based on MMO style roles.  Editions/systems where fighters are the martial class with the best martial damage and defense, not just MMO style tanks.  Where thieves are characters specialized in explorational tasks, not MMO style DPS.  Where clerics are supportful mace-swinging, god fearing, healers and bane of the undead, and not a single classed version of a gish character.  And where wizards haven't been reduced to a novelty act capable only of parlor tricks that clear weak fodder in combat, and make trivial tasks a little more convenient during exploration.  I prefer the full vancian casters of AD&D, or at least 3rd edition.  Athough an improvement over last edition, magic still doesn't feel like magic.  There's no longer any awe to it.  It's just another bland class.



First of all, traditional fantasy fiction doesn't have class roles - it is a narrative vehicle whereas D&D is a game, and a team sport at that. People should stop trying to treat the game like it's a novel, because novels aren't subject to math and probability.

Furthermore, of course classes need to be balanced against eachother - because that's what class based systems are FOR. D&D is a team sport, and demonstrably so. We know this to be true because of the game's focus on parties of adventurers. As a team sport, each character should get to contribute meaningfully to challenges, even if the fighter can't out talk the bard.

So yeah...4E gave everyone the capability to contribute in combat challenges. What the game needs to do is give everyone the capability to contribute in scoial and exploration challeges on the same level.

And magic in D&D has never been mysterious or puissant. It has always been ubiquitous, bureaucratic and utterly reliable. A fireball spell will pretty much always produce the same general effect, everytime it is cast. Let's just stop pretending that D&D magic is anything more enigmatic and awe-inspiring than a tax form.


2)  Next is a fist-full-o-dice edition.  In the earliest play tests, I was happy to see no dependency on the battle grid hard-coded into the system like the past couple of editions.  This went a long way toward streamlining play by only using it as a future modular option.  However, a degree of the fluidity of combat gained was lost when expertise/martial dice was added to the system.  Now every turn consists of rolling a fist full of dice, chasing them around the table, and herding them, then an exercise in boring basic math.



So how did you solve the problem of wizards rolling a bunch of dice in your AD&D games?


I'll be sticking Dungeon Crawl Classics and Labyrinth Lord. Or to AD&D where D&D is concerned.  WotC panders too much to the MMO kids for 5th to be worth a damn in my book.



The MMO kids have plenty to offer the game, just like you and me. Also, MMO's have a ever expanding audience while we RPG'ers are inexorably dying of renal failure. If WotC could get  WoW numbers and all it would take was sacrificng their current fanbase, they would jettison all of us in a heartbeat and they would be right to do it. Fortunately, this hobby still tends to attract people looking for particular outlets that D&D provides, while it is lost on the rest of the MMO crowd and so it will ever be.


EDIT:  Well, guess I'll make it 3 reasons.  The third being the lack of uncertainty.  There never seems to be any real risk in this system.  Monsters are WAY too easy, though I'm going to be the optimist on this one and assume they'll be getting another go later in development.  But still, the system holds the player's hands, just like the other WotC editions.  And with the all to abundant healing, both magical and natural, the only way an exerienced or natural player can die is through a string of very unlucky rolls in just the wrong situation.  That or suicide out the the sheer boredom induced by this system.






How did you know I have Renal Failure (diagnosed with End Stage Renal Failure in May, on dialysis now, 3/week)
Want continued support for 4e, check this out, 4e Lives and Breaths

Check out MY eZine, Random Encounters Seuss (lordseussmd on YM)
D&D Next is a great product.

Erm...no, it really isn't. People aren't even sure if it's an alpha or beta test, but it's nowhere near a finished product. Everything that D&DN does at this moment, another game system does better. Either retroclones, Pathfinder, 13th Age, or an older edition of D&D, they all perform better than D&DN. Saying otherwise is looking at a half - or even less than half - cake and saying it's better than anything else in the bakery. Nonsense. There is a reason it is a playtest and not a real product.

Will the 5e spawned from D&DN be a quality product? That's arguable (mostly because we haven't seen it) from both an objective (some of the rules design can be objectively bad) as well as a subjective (and this is the big one - which audience groups will the new edition actually work to appease?) standpoint.

And this is why we can't have nice things.

Really, that's mostly the fanbase. Move the game forward and make too many advances? omg a hatestorm. Move really slowly and don't really fix anything? hatestorm. No matter which crowd you appease, you'll be upsetting two other crowds. The only hope for D&D to move forward without the hatestorm is by appeasing at least the majority of the crowds.


I say it IS a great product, having grown up on the old editions and played all the way through 4e. This is a playtest, obviously, and not final version...but the game they are making is definitely one I will play over other editions or other systems. I seriously disagree that every other system out-performs D&D Next. I'm actually running a campaign with the new (and constantly evolving) rules. Things are very smooth. It's less MMO than 4e, more refined than 1e and 2e, less complicated than 3e. Are there still kinks in the rules? Of course. The game mechanics won't ever be perfect...nor would any other system's mechanics. Every group plays a bit different. But the fact that the recognize that and are trying to bake in options that make the game flexible (modules, optional rules, etc), are what's going to make it a game almost everyone can enjoy.

So yeah, I can say it's a great product. If you, personally, prefer another system, by all means go play it instead of or in addition to D&DN.

But your cake analogy is terrible. I can DEFINITELY taste a piece of cake and think it tastes delicious...maybe more delicious than the other cakes I've tried. Maybe this piece of cake has a hint of all the other cakes all rolled into one. Just what I was after.

Please introduce yourself to the new D&D 5e forums in this very friendly thread started by Pukunui!

 

Make 5e Saving Throws better using Ramzour's Six Ability Save System!

 

Lost Mine of Phandelver: || Problems and Ideas with the adventure ||  Finding the Ghost of Neverwinter Wood ||

Giving classes iconic abilities that don't break the game: Ramzour's Class Defining Ability system.

Rules for a simple non-XP based leveling up system, using the Proficiency Bonus

 

What I hate most about D&D Next is forum posts like these.

D&D Next is a great product.



This. Even at this stage, there are far, far fewer rules that I dislike in Next than in any past edition. I think it's going to be a great game.

The OP whining that there's not an official non-vancian wizard is particularly ridiculous, IMO. What edition (other than 4th, arguably) has ever had a non-vancian wizard in the core rulebook? I can't think of one. There most likely will be optional casting systems later, but it's ridiculous to expect the core rulebook to have alternative classes to please every possible taste. Besides, the casting system in Next fixes all of the biggest problems I ever had with vancian casting.

And the people complaining about the lack of creativity, this is also ridiculous. Whenever they dare to make something cool, like the sorcerer and warlock classes they had several packets ago, they get shot down.

+1 and 100% agree

I think people have trouble understanding the concept of an evolving playtest. Obviously the material we see is out of context from the whole. Once it's put togther we'll see all the different options we want.

People argue about numbers that they said they can easily tweak. People argue about lack of options when there are a LOT of character creation options. People argue about...well, everything.

Constructive feedback to the developers is 100000 times more effective than forum whinning. But I guess it makes people feel better to complain about everything and claim they could do a better job than the people who actually HAVE the job. Really mature. /rollseyes

Please introduce yourself to the new D&D 5e forums in this very friendly thread started by Pukunui!

 

Make 5e Saving Throws better using Ramzour's Six Ability Save System!

 

Lost Mine of Phandelver: || Problems and Ideas with the adventure ||  Finding the Ghost of Neverwinter Wood ||

Giving classes iconic abilities that don't break the game: Ramzour's Class Defining Ability system.

Rules for a simple non-XP based leveling up system, using the Proficiency Bonus

 

 Let's just stop pretending that D&D magic is anything more enigmatic and awe-inspiring than a tax form. 


  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I do hate threads that want others to call out what they "hate". It is a strong word and if here really are people who hate DnDnext, they should better leave. It would be better for all. For them, for us and for DnDnext.
I do hate threads that want others to call out what they "hate". It is a strong word and if here really are people who hate DnDnext, they should better leave. It would be better for all. For them, for us and for DnDnext.



Yeh, I have gotten in the habit of assuming people miss-use the word... 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

As with Love, Hate is the wrong word.
Disinteresting or unappealing would be more accurate.
I'm going to step back from my speculations as to the over-arching reasons for this antipathy, and from what I blame for them being so prominent.
To note, this is based both on the current packet and on trends since the first packet.
This is about the game, not the company or developers.

To note, if you like these things, this is not a challenge to your preferences, it is an expression of my own. You also may enjoy raw tomato without us having to duel.

"Vancian" only casting. I dislike spell-slot/day magic management. True Vancian magic, while far from my first pick, would be better than what we have now. Or, if we make the next step forward, abolish the spell slots and have a mana pool it would be even better. 

Caster Supremacy. Exception based spell systems are dangerous. Justifying them with a note on their limited use/day is begging for a caster-clock based activity cycle. This is a trait that has gotten worse with progressive playtests.

Non-Caster = Mundane. Give the non-casters viable options that keep them utile. This is a trait that has gotten worse with progressive playtests.

High Infant Mortality rate.  1st-3rd level are designed not to be adventurers, but rather to be "apprentices" which is to say speed bumps. Welcome back, death by housecat and the stack of starting characters.

Inconsistent application of Class vs Sub-Class. Let me see here, the Warlord is a Sub-Class of Fighter and the Warden is a Sub-Class of Paladin, and Background describes where your character comes from... but Barbarian is a Stand alone class...

Alignment Mechanics. Welcome back morality debate at every table and arbitrary philosophical/personality requirements. 

Slavish devotion to "Tradition". From Splint Mail to Thieve's Cant, we've seen a ressurection of the most nitche, bizarre, and down right non-sensical subsytems all to appeal to what came before. Don't get me wrong, by no means should we discard everything merely on the grounds that it has been skipped for an edition or two... however, let's leave the rotting things in the ground where they belong.

HP = Meat. Which ties in to the requirement for each party to have a Heal Bot. Because all Hp recovery is magical. Except the Barabrian. Magic and temper tantrums can restore Hp.

Which brings me to the capstone: Inconsistent application of standards and axioms. Internal consistency, beyound the most base portion of the game's mechanics, is inconsistent. Alignment doesn't matter, except. Hp recovery is always magic, except. The more they drop on the chasis, the more it seems like we use the rules, except when we don't. Which creates an obnoxious burden on the Player and DM to memorize ream upon ream of exceptions to what should be a simple core mechanic and series of resolution sub-systems.

Now, how much of these do I expect to remain issues...
A few, but it's to early to say for certain.


I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
D&D characters in early editions died left and right unless the DM somehow contrived to prevent it.

Isn't that true of ALL RPGs?  Currently I am playing 4E, for example.  There is nothing preventing the DM from overwhelming us and killing all of us, other than the fact that he doesn't want to.  In other words, the DM is purposely preventing it.

So it is really an issue of either raising starting HP or lowering monster damage.  The former is much easier to implement, so I really don't think this is something to get worked up over.

If you want 1st level heroes to be able to survive 4 hits, increase HP until they can. 



Nope, if you follow the encounter guidelines in 4E you have a pretty good chance of surviving the fight to level up.

In 3E even if you somehow manage to make a balanced encounter using the CR system you are only one or two lucky hits away from death.

2E didn't even really have encounter guidelines that I recall.

1E was probably worse. I've skimmed the books but never played.

So no, 4E was more survivable...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
What I worry about is that the call for "interesting" options will bury all the characters under a mountain of codified actions and exceptions that the game will not flow for those that want simple and fast.



As I've proved in my class mock up threads you can have both in the same game...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
To be fair.

As an observation, Lokiare has provided more brainstorming material for this edition than most posters on this forum, including myself.  I will call him out when I think he has crossed the line, but for the most part, he has some legitimate concerns.

True.

He's not exactly polite, or anything relating to polite, but he does bring up plenty of valid ideas and concerns.  Repeatedly, perhaps, but still, his input will help the end results.

You just need a good noise filter.
I mean, mentally soften "why do you hate", to "what do you dislike about", and you've got a thread worth of very useful feedback.



I'd change the title, but its too late. If an ORC wants to they can change it to "What do you hate about D&D:Next?" to math the opposite thread title...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
D&D characters in early editions died left and right unless the DM somehow contrived to prevent it.

Isn't that true of ALL RPGs?  Currently I am playing 4E, for example.  There is nothing preventing the DM from overwhelming us and killing all of us, other than the fact that he doesn't want to.  In other words, the DM is purposely preventing it.
 



It's somewhat true, though early D&D was very swingy and random from that standpoint. In 4E, generally you die from biting off more than you can chew or possibly poor teamwork or a string of bad rolls but in 1E it wasn't that clean. Character death happened "just because" a whole lot.

In the first 4E adventure I ran (Keep on the Shadowfell) I had two TPKs before they ever got to the keep because they split the party, didn't work together particularly well and took the Warlord's role designation of "Leader" to mean his place in the party marching order. That was on them. one shot-one kill on the PCs is not as fun.



That's exactly what I'm talking about. In 4E sure you can TPK at any time, life is dangerous. However you don't live in fear of the DM rolling a 16 or higher on the d20. You instead live in fear of making the wrong choices or extremely long running bad rolls...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
 Lokaire,
I agree with this poster, the term you are using is blatantly disrespectful and not only an attack on the Vietnamese people but also the soldiers who fought in that war. I am aware of your conspiracy theorist agenda and I don't care to hear it expressed against my country now or any other time. Please use some other term.

                                                  Excersise some tact please. 
                                                             Thank you



Only if you are looking to be offended.

Which more and more seems to be the sole purpose of this frikkin forum  ::|




If they suggest an alternate term I'll use it. I'm leaning toward rocket-tag, but I'm sure some Rocket scientist or whatever will start flaming me over it...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
What's wrong with "in some form"? Why can't we let the game designers be the game designers, and if we don't like it, we make our own game. Actually, taking a decent set of rules and home-brewing your own classes or houserules is a tradition from time immemorial. 

Ironically, the only D&D game where I felt like DMs were beholden to sudden and arbitrary changes in the game was 4e, with the constant, campaign and character-disrupting errata flowing in and ruining everything.

It's much better if we playtest less classes more, than more classes less, I think. Extra classes will be easy to add later on, a little patience is all we need here. 



What's wrong with 'in some form'? I'll tell you.

Mearl's idea of 'some form' is to put two maneuvers at mid level to summarize a class that could grant an initiative bonus ("heads up people, incoming!"), tactical movement ("Look out!"), grant attacks ("Its got an opening hit it now!"), martial healing in the form of inspiration ("Don't lose hope now, you cut the thing and its bleeding, which means it can be killed!"), temporary hit points in the form of inspiration ("You are tougher than nails, you are unstoppable!"), and probably quite a few more I'm forgetting.

Even if you don't like the warlord, can you see the hypocrisy/dishonesty? Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
The developers didn't techincally say it would be there, to my disappointment. When I went back and watched the podcast and re-read the post it had some deceptive lawyer speak with statements that started definitively then ended with words to the effect of "...in some form" to CYA.




This is something that happened a lot to people.  especially those that say things like promises not kept.  Almost every time someone makes that complaint it is in reference to something that was never actually promised.  Mainly because when they first started they were very good about not promising anything except for a few things like:

"I am going to 100% promise you that, especially if you are a veteran player or DM, we will include stuff in the next iteration of the game that you will ignore. In fact, I'm going to come out and say that we want you to ignore parts of the game."

that is one of the only promises made about this game.  All other promises are people reading into entirely non promise statements. 



If you say you are going to do something then don't do it, what is that called? I think they have a name for it somewhere? Of course you are exempt if you are a corporation...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Ditto. Easily the most unlikeable thing about [4E] is having to wade through empty-headed naysaying.



Fixed that for you.



Because original post describes the 4E forums perfectly.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

There is a nice little self created divide here. Shame there can't be more acceptance instead. I feel that is where the future of the game should be.

All this vitriol, pushing away, retroactive retaliation, and preemptive striking needs to stop.

I keep trying but some won't let things go. Will you?

 

Because you like something, it does not mean it is good. Because you dislike something, it does not mean it is bad. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it everyone's opinion. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it truth. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it the general consensus. Whatever side you want to take, at least remember these things.


Hate might be too strong a word. I'd rather say what I dislike most about the game in its current playtest form.

♦ How they seem to waste good ideas by poor implementation. This is probably the gravest item, imo. Things like Bounded Accuracy and Advantage/Disadvantage started out as good ideas that--even if better or not than previous editions being arguable--could at least give the new version of the game an interesting new face, an original aspect. But they seem to not know how to really implement this ideas in an interesting and practical way, or else they make a mess of it by throwing it all around and sort of defeating the purpose of it even existing (the case with Adv/Disadv). I can only hope this is more or less intentional since it's still a playtest, and that they're somehow just throwing things around trying to see where they fit best, but frankly my hopes aren't high at the moment of it being the case.



I completely agree here.

♦ Still too much semblance to 4th edition, mainly with abilities that don't make any sense and don't have any narrative purpose for being there. Stuff that was thrown in just for mechanics-sake. Mechanics and pseudo-balance should NEVER come before narrative in an RPG. There's was a little of it in 3e, though not much in the Core at least, 4th ed was absolute king in that. I was sincerely hoping to see this kind of thing gone from D&D entirely but it doesn't seem it's going to be the case. I just can't stress enough how I dislike nonsensical things like Ricochet.



Would it surprise you to know that nonsensical stuff is not something that 4E fans are tied to? We would have no problem with limits on what you can push with tide of iron or having to make an opposed Intimidate/Wisdom check to make enemies approach for Come and Get It.

As to ricochet...

youtu.be/nIVQyXq_q0g





♦ Deadly Strike alone is a deal-breaker for me. There are other general rules I don't particularly like but I can live with, but the the lack of multiple attacks is just a no-deal for me. Deadly Strike and all involved variations and suplementar-rules feel just like a mess of unnecessary and absolutelly "un-fun" rules, when simply using multiple attacks and letting players usem as they like (either for one target or more) makes a lot more sense from a narrative point of view and are 100x more fun to play with, allowing players a lot more freedom.



I agree with these too.

Currently I would play a 5e game, but I don't think I would want to run one of my own as a DM, since 2e or 3e still offer me a better game according to my taste. But depending on how Deadly Strike, at least (amongst a few other things), comes out in the end I might give it a try. If it's easy enough to house-rule out and substitute with plain ol' multiple-attacks I'll do it, but if it comes completely embeded into several rules, abilities, options, etc, in a way that I'd have to practically house-rule the entire game to take it out, then I just wouldn't.



Exactly, I feel the same way except with 4E...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.

But "ALL PH1 CLASSES WILL BE PLAYABLE FROM DAY ONE ... in some form" builds an expectation. Later saying "in some form" was the important part is borderline dishonest.



I like how you put the part you are emphasizing in all caps.  Obviously, not every phb1 class will have a 5e equivalent or they wouldn't have said in some form at all.   Words mean things.   But I do think we have not seen nearly the classes that are going to be available at full release.   I'm sure there will be a sorcerer and a warlock.   There won't like be an assassin.  There will be a druid.  So I'd say 80% of the classes will have equivalents as classes in 5e.   The others will be better reflected as backgrounds, specialities, etc...

If they do that you have no legitimate complaint.  But of course you can still get angry and not buy the game.  Rationality is not a requirement in this society. 



Emerikol, I might give a lot of money in some form...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
What I hate most about D&D Next is forum posts like these.

D&D Next is a great product. The devs get so much hate by some in this community and it's kind of ridiculous. They are doing us all a favor by letting us in the design process. For the first time, the community gets to actually playtest the rules while they're in work. But some people seem to take each new packet as if it was written in stone. They see one rule and they curse and moan about how terrible the game is. It's a PLAYTEST. The rules are going to change each time. They've told us specifically that they're testing the limits of the system (too hard, too easy, too complicated, too simple, etc) in order to find the sweet spot.

You're well within your right to make topics like this, but do you actually think this is a helpful thread? (of course you do, I'm sure)

And this is why we can't have nice things.



Actually we are doing them a favor by buying their products. It is not a priveledge to purchase their game. We do it because voluntarily want to.

Every bit of hate they get they deserve. Your join date indicates you are probably new around here. WotC has done quite a few things to engender that hate. I suggest you look up the history of D&D and WotC. Then come back and maybe we can talk.

As to the 'its a play test' comment. Yes, it certainly is a play test. Where we are supposed to stress test the system and make sure it works and when it doesn't it is our job as play testers to tell them what we like and don't like, what works and what does not work.

Negative comments are not automatically trolling. They are constructive criticism...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
What I hate most about D&D Next is forum posts like these.

D&D Next is a great product.



This. Even at this stage, there are far, far fewer rules that I dislike in Next than in any past edition. I think it's going to be a great game.

The OP whining that there's not an official non-vancian wizard is particularly ridiculous, IMO. What edition (other than 4th, arguably) has ever had a non-vancian wizard in the core rulebook? I can't think of one. There most likely will be optional casting systems later, but it's ridiculous to expect the core rulebook to have alternative classes to please every possible taste. Besides, the casting system in Next fixes all of the biggest problems I ever had with vancian casting.

And the people complaining about the lack of creativity, this is also ridiculous. Whenever they dare to make something cool, like the sorcerer and warlock classes they had several packets ago, they get shot down.



Dirto. Easily the most unlikeable thing about DDN is having to wade through empty-headed naysaying.



Honestly, after this topic was put out... I've got to say I'm starting to feel the same way too



Look now. I didn't go into the 'what do you love about D&D:Next?' thread and start posting what I hated about 5E now did I? You people need to keep your posts on topic. Off-topic posts are a violation of the CoC...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />1)  Like the last edition, Next is too focused on combat balance in terms of class development.  Basically, classes have been balanced into bland monotony.  I'll stick with the editions and rpgs where class role development was geared towards class roles as they would appear in a traditional works of fantasy fiction rather than based on MMO style roles.  Editions/systems where fighters are the martial class with the best martial damage and defense, not just MMO style tanks.  Where thieves are characters specialized in explorational tasks, not MMO style DPS.  Where clerics are supportful mace-swinging, god fearing, healers and bane of the undead, and not a single classed version of a gish character.  And where wizards haven't been reduced to a novelty act capable only of parlor tricks that clear weak fodder in combat, and make trivial tasks a little more convenient during exploration.  I prefer the full vancian casters of AD&D, or at least 3rd edition.  Athough an improvement over last edition, magic still doesn't feel like magic.  There's no longer any awe to it.  It's just another bland class.



First of all, traditional fantasy fiction doesn't have class roles - it is a narrative vehicle whereas D&D is a game, and a team sport at that. People should stop trying to treat the game like it's a novel, because novels aren't subject to math and probability.

Furthermore, of course classes need to be balanced against eachother - because that's what class based systems are FOR. D&D is a team sport, and demonstrably so. We know this to be true because of the game's focus on parties of adventurers. As a team sport, each character should get to contribute meaningfully to challenges, even if the fighter can't out talk the bard.

So yeah...4E gave everyone the capability to contribute in combat challenges. What the game needs to do is give everyone the capability to contribute in scoial and exploration challeges on the same level.

And magic in D&D has never been mysterious or puissant. It has always been ubiquitous, bureaucratic and utterly reliable. A fireball spell will pretty much always produce the same general effect, everytime it is cast. Let's just stop pretending that D&D magic is anything more enigmatic and awe-inspiring than a tax form.


2)  Next is a fist-full-o-dice edition.  In the earliest play tests, I was happy to see no dependency on the battle grid hard-coded into the system like the past couple of editions.  This went a long way toward streamlining play by only using it as a future modular option.  However, a degree of the fluidity of combat gained was lost when expertise/martial dice was added to the system.  Now every turn consists of rolling a fist full of dice, chasing them around the table, and herding them, then an exercise in boring basic math.



So how did you solve the problem of wizards rolling a bunch of dice in your AD&D games?


I'll be sticking Dungeon Crawl Classics and Labyrinth Lord. Or to AD&D where D&D is concerned.  WotC panders too much to the MMO kids for 5th to be worth a damn in my book.



The MMO kids have plenty to offer the game, just like you and me. Also, MMO's have a ever expanding audience while we RPG'ers are inexorably dying of renal failure. If WotC could get  WoW numbers and all it would take was sacrificng their current fanbase, they would jettison all of us in a heartbeat and they would be right to do it. Fortunately, this hobby still tends to attract people looking for particular outlets that D&D provides, while it is lost on the rest of the MMO crowd and so it will ever be.


EDIT:  Well, guess I'll make it 3 reasons.  The third being the lack of uncertainty.  There never seems to be any real risk in this system.  Monsters are WAY too easy, though I'm going to be the optimist on this one and assume they'll be getting another go later in development.  But still, the system holds the player's hands, just like the other WotC editions.  And with the all to abundant healing, both magical and natural, the only way an exerienced or natural player can die is through a string of very unlucky rolls in just the wrong situation.  That or suicide out the the sheer boredom induced by this system.






How did you know I have Renal Failure (diagnosed with End Stage Renal Failure in May, on dialysis now, 3/week)


Oh, wow, I'm sorry. How do you deal with know you are going to die in a few years? That's got to be one of the most horrible things to endure? Cry
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.


Every bit of hate they get they deserve. Your join date indicates you are probably new around here. WotC has done quite a few things to engender that hate. I suggest you look up the history of D&D and WotC. Then come back and maybe we can talk.



That's the problem with this thread, then, if it is couched in terms right from the OP of hating DnD Next just because WotC deserves it. "What do you hate about DnD Next" could have been constructive and useful. "Let's hate on DnD Next because WotC" isn't so much.
D&D Next is a great product.

Erm...no, it really isn't. People aren't even sure if it's an alpha or beta test, but it's nowhere near a finished product. Everything that D&DN does at this moment, another game system does better. Either retroclones, Pathfinder, 13th Age, or an older edition of D&D, they all perform better than D&DN. Saying otherwise is looking at a half - or even less than half - cake and saying it's better than anything else in the bakery. Nonsense. There is a reason it is a playtest and not a real product.

Will the 5e spawned from D&DN be a quality product? That's arguable (mostly because we haven't seen it) from both an objective (some of the rules design can be objectively bad) as well as a subjective (and this is the big one - which audience groups will the new edition actually work to appease?) standpoint.

And this is why we can't have nice things.

Really, that's mostly the fanbase. Move the game forward and make too many advances? omg a hatestorm. Move really slowly and don't really fix anything? hatestorm. No matter which crowd you appease, you'll be upsetting two other crowds. The only hope for D&D to move forward without the hatestorm is by appeasing at least the majority of the crowds.


I say it IS a great product, having grown up on the old editions and played all the way through 4e. This is a playtest, obviously, and not final version...but the game they are making is definitely one I will play over other editions or other systems. I seriously disagree that every other system out-performs D&D Next. I'm actually running a campaign with the new (and constantly evolving) rules. Things are very smooth. It's less MMO than 4e, more refined than 1e and 2e, less complicated than 3e. Are there still kinks in the rules? Of course. The game mechanics won't ever be perfect...nor would any other system's mechanics. Every group plays a bit different. But the fact that the recognize that and are trying to bake in options that make the game flexible (modules, optional rules, etc), are what's going to make it a game almost everyone can enjoy.

So yeah, I can say it's a great product. If you, personally, prefer another system, by all means go play it instead of or in addition to D&DN.

But your cake analogy is terrible. I can DEFINITELY taste a piece of cake and think it tastes delicious...maybe more delicious than the other cakes I've tried. Maybe this piece of cake has a hint of all the other cakes all rolled into one. Just what I was after.



Just so you know referring to any edition as 'video gamey', 'board game', or 'MMO' is an actionable offense under the code of conduct. Please refrain from using those terms. Instead get a little more specific like "4E's power progression being the same for all classes" or "4E's long combat.". It'll help us all be more constructive...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I do hate threads that want others to call out what they "hate". It is a strong word and if here really are people who hate DnDnext, they should better leave. It would be better for all. For them, for us and for DnDnext.



I do hate threads that want others to call out what they "hate". It is a strong word and if here really are people who hate DnDnext, they should better leave. It would be better for all. For them, for us and for DnDnext.



Yeh, I have gotten in the habit of assuming people miss-use the word... 



I just used the opposite words used in the other thread "Why do you LOVE D&D:Next?".

If hate is too strong, then love is too strong by the same standard.

Also no. We should not leave. We should be loud but polite and let the developers know they aren't getting our money so they can improve the game and get everyone's money and not just some small group of us...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.


Every bit of hate they get they deserve. Your join date indicates you are probably new around here. WotC has done quite a few things to engender that hate. I suggest you look up the history of D&D and WotC. Then come back and maybe we can talk.



That's the problem with this thread, then, if it is couched in terms right from the OP of hating DnD Next just because WotC deserves it. "What do you hate about DnD Next" could have been constructive and useful. "Let's hate on DnD Next because WotC" isn't so much.



Nope. Remember Context matters.

Go back and read the post I quoted in there. They were talking specifically why people hate WotC,not about 5E or anything like that. I hate WotC because of the way they acted from 3.5E on into 4E, I do not hate them because of 5E. Only recently have they shown that they might be changing. They aren't even close to where they need to be, but showing a willingness to change is a big thing for me.

Also go read my original post. Nowhere did I say I hated WotC in it. This is purely a thread about not liking 5e as presented in the play test packets. Nothing more, nothing less. Trying to turn it into a hate WotC thread is not productive. They need to know what we do not like about 5E so they can alter the game so that we can all like it...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
 They need to know what we do not like about 5E so they can alter the game so that we can all like it...



Oh I agree on that part, which is why the title of this thread is so disappointing. The title is the original point of obfuscation in this thread. I think it has inevitably invited arguments about blanket hate, rather than about specific elements of Next that need to be addressed.  

Ricochet.. modern bow plus light weight modern arrows (possibly carbon fibre) I have seen it with these bows like that video, never with a longbow and wooden arrows, before you say anything I have and use regulary (every week) a longbow.
I say it IS a great product, having grown up on the old editions and played all the way through 4e.

What other games have you played other than D&D?

I could offer a break down of the parts where D&DN falls apart and stops being functional, where other games that are similar do not. I honestly don't feel like doing that, because I don't think you'll care or listen.
It's less MMO than 4e

Especially since you wear your bias on your sleeve, and have incredibly faulted ideas of what makes a game work and work well.
But the fact that the recognize that and are trying to bake in options that make the game flexible (modules, optional rules, etc), are what's going to make it a game almost everyone can enjoy.

Which is why there are so many people saying "this game cannot do things that I enjoy, when can we get that"?
So yeah, I can say it's a great product. If you, personally, prefer another system, by all means go play it instead of or in addition to D&DN.

It's arguable that it's even a product. It's not being sold, or even distributed freely with the intent of being part of the market; it's a playtest that is supposed to be temporary and shifting in nature and not a fully functional game. The devs have outright said this.

But you like it, so obviously it is good. Whatever.

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."

Ricochet.. modern bow plus light weight modern arrows (possibly carbon fibre) I have seen it with these bows like that video, never with a longbow and wooden arrows, before you say anything I have and use regulary (every week) a longbow.



Sacrifice some arrows and see if you can replicate it. A skill warrior certainly can...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.