Warlords in DnD Next? Custom Idea

Is there room in DnD Next for the warlord?


How about two options for the fighter that make it more like the 4e warlord


Level 1: Superior Defense option


Stand Your Ground!:As an action, you may spend a number of expertise dice and one ally in 30 ft may spend the same number of hit dice.


Level 4: Unerring Attacker  option


Directed Assault!:As an action, you may spend one expertise die and one ally in 30ft may make take an action.


 


Thoughts?

The first one ought to be we agree the "subclass" like a optional list of class features to replace the ones of the core class.

---

My suggestion is trying recycle the old powers of warlord 4th, the auras by Marshall 3rd, and the school of white raven from "Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords".

The warlord is a character to play with lots of allies. And if the boss is a warlord the numbers are a headache for DM.

I advice the simplest and fastest option would be warlord given´s permanent +2 bonus aura or giving a power about +2 attack for two minutes, but a "machine to gift actions points".

Let´s imagine allies are near of warlord. In the beggining of the warlord he can choose different poses: agresive, defensive, march or attentive. Different poses active different tree of powers, for example a bonus of movement only can be active in the faster attestive, or a bonus to avoid tramps and ambush (or silenter movement) only in attentive pose.

When the pose is chosen, the warlord bonus, like action dices, can´t be used by himself (but for henchmen controlled directlly by him) are "floating" and be can used by others allies.

For example the warlord cries a order of charge. March pose is active and there is action dices to be used for bonus about movement. Who use the actions dices? If warlord PC doesn´t say names, the first PC who aks spend it. 

- Warlord: March pose.

The dwarf spent a "action dice" for a bonus movement to attack the minotaur of the first line.

The half-elf ranger choose use her "action dice" for a bonus of innitiative.

The half-ogre choose spend his "free action" for extra damage roll for charge. 

The tiefling choose a bonus of Des while she is running to the enemy. 

The Warlord has gifted the "free action dice" and the other characters have chosen the way to spend it (within of the mini-list belonging to the bonded pose).

With higher levels the warlod could give different poses to different allies (for example aggresive pose to the barbarian and defensive pose for paladin). 

(Only bonus for concentration cheks when the words of encouragement are said before starting the effort).

* By special training with bard the aura space is bigger if bard´s music is used to give warlord´s order.

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

Pokemon-oid power names (with exclamation points no less) = insta-fail.
There is room, and there are plans for, more warlord powers.  In fact, i'm sure there will be at least one warlord sub-class.

Martial healing however, is going to be a module.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

My own version of warlord´s martial healing is "ghost" hit points for ally squad. (Squad is a monter subtype like swarn, but about humanoid soldiers, a little pack within a army). Those "ghost" hitpoints means a last effort before getting demoralized. (The hit points of a squad are the pain can be suffered before breaking ranks. 

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

My own version of warlord´s martial healing is "ghost" hit points for ally squad. (Squad is a monter subtype like swarn, but about humanoid soldiers, a little pack within a army). Those "ghost" hitpoints means a last effort before getting demoralized. (The hit points of a squad are the pain can be suffered before breaking ranks. 



  They seem to have shied away from having temporary HPs.  Having played with a guy for whom the concept was too complicated, I'm of two minds.  But a warlord effect should be something temporary like a 1 round AC boost, or a 1 round HP boost (a different way of doing the same effect).

  Doing actual healing (which would otherwise take 1 hour of downtime) by using HD smacks of non-magical magic much like the 4E nonsense.  Either call it what it is, magic, and make it susceptible to dispel magic and anti-magic field like it should be, or don't do it.

@mikemearls don't quite understand the difference

I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down. - Eric Cartman

Enough chitchat!  Time is candy! - Pinky Pie

That is one area I am disappointed in 5E in reference to making rituals caster exclusive. You could have martial practices and rituals as bridges between magic or non-magic and available to all classes. That way the warlord can be good at what a warlord does and use every tool at their disposal to make the party better. That way you can have a class that is based on 50 percent magic healing, or 50 percent non-magic, versus a cleric that is 100 percent magic, or other variances. The strong divide they are making with magic, versus non-magic in reference to hit points, healing and methods can only harm the game. Take away temporary hit points, hit dice, or other options, and its gets even worse.
Of course there's room for the warlord but its very 4E-ish so it'll be subsumed by another class or dropped altogether
I like having the option to build a warlord style fighter who uses expertise dice for bonuses.  That provides more diversity for the fighter class and makes sense. It also removes a need for an actual warlord class in doing so, however. I've never bern a fan of warlord healing in 4th regardless.
The Warlord must be a full class, and a fully functional leader, including real healing.
you could do like the barbarian...

Fight on:  When an ally drops to 0 hit points, make a DC 5 charisma check.  If you succed, the ally is instead at 1 hit point.  The DC cumulitivly increases by 5 each time you use this ability, and it resets to 5 after a long rest.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The Warlord must be a full class, and a fully functional leader, including real healing.


"Leader" is just fluff wotc thought might sound more appealing than "support".

The only thing needed is the ability to build characters and that can be done with no classes and just skills plus feats.

Various classes is traditional and following the tradition only requires cleric, fighter, rogue, mage (magic user).  Everything beyond that is simply filler options and not needed.

Fighters needed more variety and many players did not agree with warlord healing.  Those are reasons worth combining the classes and remaining thematic.

Just stating they must be such and such because you work for the we-say-so corporation or something isn't a very strong argument. ;)

According to MM, there is plenty of room for the Warlord in the Fighter.
I'll believe it when I see it, thus far, it has seemed a poor fit.
I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
I like having the option to build a warlord style fighter who uses expertise dice for bonuses.  That provides more diversity for the fighter class and makes sense. It also removes a need for an actual warlord class in doing so, however. I've never bern a fan of warlord healing in 4th regardless.



Yes all two levels of it that you get a maneuver that is Warlordy...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
The Warlord must be a full class, and a fully functional leader, including real healing.


"Leader" is just fluff wotc thought might sound more appealing than "support".

The only thing needed is the ability to build characters and that can be done with no classes and just skills plus feats.

Fighters needed more variety and many players did not agree with warlord healing.  Those are reasons worth combining the classes and remaining thematic.

Just stating they must be such and such because you work for the we-say-so corporation or something isn't a very strong argument. ;)




They aren't thematic together, and the Fighters aint better off for it. It's essentially killing off the class while making it as far thematic as it can be, because now it makes the Fighter partial support (when he's supposed to be the martial specalist) while the Warlord doesn't even use heavy armor, nor usually prefers to be up in the midst of things.

In general, I struggle to see how warlord and fighter fit together mechanically and thematically.

Thematically - there are a lot of people who like the change seem to point out that the background of warlord and fighter can both be very similar - soldier. But one of the advantages of 5e - that class doesn't force background. If you want to be a soldier wizard, soldier fighter, soldier rogue, you can. Saying that a warlord has to be a soldier background is just as limiting as saying that all fighters are soldiers. This artificial limitation on creativity gets in the way of plenty of great potential characters - the noble warlord, the savant warlord, the nature warlord. I know plenty of people say there's a good overlap, but I don't see it.

As for mechanically, your fighter should be your best combatant. If you make the warlord be a fighter, what can he give up to do his warlordy things? In 4e, the warlord alone was a meh combatant - in 5e if he's a fighter, my fear is that giving actions up to let someone else attack would be pointless, since you might as well attack.

I also think without at wills restrictions, most of the suggestions for giving up actions just make the wizard too good. After all, having 2 fighters and 1 wizard in the party, the fighters would never give up an attack to let the other attack. But they would to let the wizard cast fireball. That's a bad design, IMHO - it just reinforces those who have and punishes those who have not.
There is room, and there are plans for, more warlord powers.  In fact, i'm sure there will be at least one warlord sub-class.

Martial healing however, is going to be a module.


Mellored, you might want to check out the barbarian's Regenerative Rage ability. The barbarian has the ability to regain hit points and nothing anywhere implies that the barbarian has magic. Martial healing is already a thing in Next.
The only thematic similarity between the Warlord and the Fighter is that they both have an idea of representing "The Hero" in them. In that sense, a well-implemented Warlord could make a badly-implemented Fighter redundant, but not the other way around.
If you want a warlord, have the warlord be a fighter subclass that gains the leadership feat for free and 1d4 1st level fighter cohorts per level that are more loyal than a typical man at arms, hireling or henchman would be. 

 
If you want a warlord, have the warlord be a fighter subclass that gains the leadership feat for free and 1d4 1st level fighter cohorts per level that are more loyal than a typical man at arms, hireling or henchman would be. 

 



That isn't anywhere close to what the Warlord was, that is a level 10 Fighting Man from 1st edition.
Given how broad they defined "sub-classes", it fits.

Basicly, "fighter" is a power source.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

That's an awful excuse and you know it. Warlord does not fit within the mechanical paradigm they've established for Fighter, and it is a far more worthy and relevant class concept than Fighter, so it should be an independent class. There is no argument for making it a subclass.
As for mechanically, your fighter should be your best combatant. If you make the warlord be a fighter, what can he give up to do his warlordy things? In 4e, the warlord alone was a meh combatant - in 5e if he's a fighter, my fear is that giving actions up to let someone else attack would be pointless, since you might as well attack.


This is not quite accurate.  The fighter currently has to give up his better personal maneuvers to take the warlordish maneuvers in the first place and making the character more meh for personal combat and reinforcing the concept.


I like having the option to build a warlord style fighter who uses expertise dice for bonuses.  That provides more diversity for the fighter class and makes sense. It also removes a need for an actual warlord class in doing so, however. I've never bern a fan of warlord healing in 4th regardless.



Yes all two levels of it that you get a maneuver that is Warlordy...


Strike command, warning shout, attack orders, bolster allies would be what I considered warlordish; counting isn't your forte?  ;)  JK.  Fighters only get so many manuevers in the first place and can take warlord style maneuvers in each case.

I think more can be added in the feat selections if WotC continues down that path, but as is 2 maneuvers at first level, 1 at fourth, 1 at seventh gives us up to 4 options using the expertise dice mechanic and carries an opportunity cost in the build.
If you want a warlord, have the warlord be a fighter subclass that gains the leadership feat for free and 1d4 1st level fighter cohorts per level that are more loyal than a typical man at arms, hireling or henchman would be. 

 



Or we could have an actual Warlord, and you can go sit in a corner and cry.



Or we can have more versatility in fighter design and still have a similar build and still have it built to be useful, and you can go sit in a corner and cry just because it's named fighter instead of warlord.

There are posters who agree and disagree with the warlord concepts on both sides of the fence who try to have a civil discussion on it.  Unfortunately I do not read your post as such and I'm currenly giving the benefit of the doubt on it, but if you might want to add a bit more substance behind your opinion.

My original goal was to stay within the realm of the current design of the edition.  I like the idea of a non-magical hero motivating his allies.  I'm less excited by giving people more dice for their turns.  I'd like to think of the fighter going front line and yelling for the wizard to shoot more magic this turn.  It makes sense to see the fighter in a leader role for the party.  Thus giving action to party members.

In terms of healing, I love the cleric, but think healing is limited.  I want a way for the party to heal in combat.  By making the fighter provide VERY limited healing through dice I thought that would fill that void.

In either case, I'm interested in seeing what WotC cooks up officially. 

That's an awful excuse and you know it. Warlord does not fit within the mechanical paradigm they've established for Fighter, and it is a far more worthy and relevant class concept than Fighter, so it should be an independent class. There is no argument for making it a subclass except a misguided desire to cater to the handful of loathsome old shrieking control freaks who hate the idea of useful non-magical characters.

What's wrong with the mechanical paradigm?  Nearly every warlord writeup i saw used expertise dice.

Weapons and armor:  Check
Front line HP: Check
Encounter powers: Check

How can you not have a warlord fit under that?
- Add is a "grant attack" action
- Add a team wide inititive bonus
- Add more manuvers, like movement boosting and OA prevention.
- reduce deadly strike to cleric levels to compinsate

What exactly won't fit?
Dailies?  IMO, a warlord will work fine without them.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

That's an awful excuse and you know it. Warlord does not fit within the mechanical paradigm they've established for Fighter, and it is a far more worthy and relevant class concept than Fighter, so it should be an independent class. There is no argument for making it a subclass except a misguided desire to cater to the handful of loathsome old shrieking control freaks who hate the idea of useful non-magical characters.

What's wrong with the mechanical paradigm?  Nearly every warlord writeup i saw used expertise dice.

Weapons and armor:  Check
Front line HP: Check
Encounter powers: Check

How can you not have a warlord fit under that?
- Add is a "grant attack" action
- Add a team wide inititive bonus
- Add more manuvers, like movement boosting and OA prevention.
- reduce deadly strike to cleric levels to compinsate

What exactly won't fit?
Dailies?  IMO, a warlord will work fine without them.



Considering the amount of things a Warlord can get by your observation, it stops being a sub-class and becomes more of an "Actual Class".
That's an awful excuse and you know it. Warlord does not fit within the mechanical paradigm they've established for Fighter, and it is a far more worthy and relevant class concept than Fighter, so it should be an independent class. There is no argument for making it a subclass except a misguided desire to cater to the handful of loathsome old shrieking control freaks who hate the idea of useful non-magical characters.

What's wrong with the mechanical paradigm?  Nearly every warlord writeup i saw used expertise dice.

Weapons and armor:  Check
Front line HP: Check
Encounter powers: Check

How can you not have a warlord fit under that?
- Add is a "grant attack" action
- Add a team wide inititive bonus
- Add more manuvers, like movement boosting and OA prevention.
- reduce deadly strike to cleric levels to compinsate

What exactly won't fit?
Dailies?  IMO, a warlord will work fine without them.



Considering the amount of things a Warlord can get by your observation, it stops being a sub-class and becomes more of an "Actual Class".


It's the things a FIGHTER can get and it is an actual class.
That's an awful excuse and you know it. Warlord does not fit within the mechanical paradigm they've established for Fighter, and it is a far more worthy and relevant class concept than Fighter, so it should be an independent class. There is no argument for making it a subclass except a misguided desire to cater to the handful of loathsome old shrieking control freaks who hate the idea of useful non-magical characters.

What's wrong with the mechanical paradigm?  Nearly every warlord writeup i saw used expertise dice.

Weapons and armor:  Check
Front line HP: Check
Encounter powers: Check

How can you not have a warlord fit under that?
- Add is a "grant attack" action
- Add a team wide inititive bonus
- Add more manuvers, like movement boosting and OA prevention.
- reduce deadly strike to cleric levels to compinsate
- reduce bonus feats

What exactly won't fit?
Dailies?  IMO, a warlord will work fine without them.

Considering the amount of things a Warlord can get by your observation, it stops being a sub-class and becomes more of an "Actual Class".

Right.  Warlord will be an "actual class", but is called a "sub-class" and put under the "fighter" umbrella-class.

It's more a semantics argument then a functional one.


In 2e, "paladin" was also under the "fighter" umbrella, shareing some mechanics, but also adding alot of it's own.

In 3e there was no umbrella, and each individual option was it's own class.  Sub-classes where called prestige classes.

In late 4e, "slayer", "knight", and "weaponmaster" where all under the "fighter" umbrella.  Each used a different core mechanic, but shares some other ones (mainly, utility powers).


Like wise, i expect figher to have sever "actual classes" under it...
Slayer, who only uses basic attacks, and doesn't get expertise dice.  The striker-fighter.
Warlord, who get's expertise dice, team buff's, and manuvers.  The leader-fighter.
Knight, who's get some kind of defender thing and extra defenses.   The defender-fighter.
Weaponmaster, who get's expertise dice, and extra manuvers.  A jack-of-all-fighter.

Edit: You'll note that i did not have a generic "fighter". 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.


Is there room in DnD Next for the warlord?


Yes, there's plenty of room.  So far martial characters are represented by only two classes, and those classes don't come near to fulfilling the potential of the fantasy hero.


How about two options for the fighter that make it more like the 4e warlord

Level 1: Superior Defense option


Stand Your Ground!:As an action, you may spend a number of expertise dice and one ally in 30 ft may spend the same number of hit dice.


Level 4: Unerring Attacker  option


Directed Assault!:As an action, you may spend one expertise die and one ally in 30ft may make take an action.


 


Thoughts?


I tried the warlord-like expertise options in the last encounters season and they were damned near worthless.  These are less worthless, but still a far cry from what the Warlord was.  For one thing, it needs to be its own class.   
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If you want a warlord, have the warlord be a fighter subclass that gains the leadership feat for free and 1d4 1st level fighter cohorts per level that are more loyal than a typical man at arms, hireling or henchman would be. 

 



Or we could have an actual Warlord, and you can go sit in a corner and cry.



Or we can have more versatility in fighter design and still have a similar build and still have it built to be useful, and you can go sit in a corner and cry just because it's named fighter instead of warlord.

There are posters who agree and disagree with the warlord concepts on both sides of the fence who try to have a civil discussion on it.  Unfortunately I do not read your post as such and I'm currenly giving the benefit of the doubt on it, but if you might want to add a bit more substance behind your opinion.



Nothing fans of the class will accept as a Warlord will be anything the opposition to the class can accept within Fighter, so there is no discussion to be had.

The clear and only solution is to make Warlord its own class, at which point the people who want a Warlord play a Warlord, the people who can't stand a Warlord ban it.
A 3rd party developer made a warlord conversion for 3.5/Pathfinder. Instead of healing it granted temporary hitpoints along other goodies (including combat leader).

www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-class...
Then it was non-functional. THP cannot substitute for healing, whether tactically, narratively, or as a necessary party ability.
Mind filling me in on why it can't?

Stop the H4TE

Then it was non-functional. THP cannot substitute for healing, whether tactically, narratively, or as a necessary party ability.



Well, I'm certain such a hardline approach will definitely work...

Actually, what I was thinking (and this is in addition to the 'martial healing will be in the dmg' statement we already have) was that a good bridge between the two would be to make it THP...that can become permanent hp if healed via the Heal skill within (x amount of time) of the battle/encounter's conclusion (ie, before the adrenaline wears off).

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

Then it was non-functional. THP cannot substitute for healing, whether tactically, narratively, or as a necessary party ability.


Check the link. Their warlord wasn't designed as a healer, but some sort of inspiring fighter. THP may not be Healing, but they aren't bad to have either. And with a high initiative (supported by combat leader) you can get them off pretty early in a fight. His Commanding Presence is simple, but effective.
...Which is precisely why I said it was non-functional. A Warlord that doesn't serve as the party's leader doesn't work as a Warlord.

Mind filling me in on why it can't?



Ever played with a Cloak of Courage spamming Cleric?

Healing fixes the PCs after the monsters do their job. THP makes the DM unable to accomplish anything, which means harder fights until the effect of the THP is leveled out, at which point you hit the other problem: THP can't get people up when they fall.

Well, I'm certain such a hardline approach will definitely work...



It gets us to the only place worth going, yes.

Actually, what I was thinking (and this is in addition to the 'martial healing will be in the dmg' statement we already have) was that a good bridge between the two would be to make it THP...that can become permanent hp if healed via the Heal skill within (x amount of time) of the battle/encounter's conclusion (ie, before the adrenaline wears off).



Sure, we could include a convoluted workaround for a "problem" that exists only in the minds of a tiny minority of antisocial control freaks, but it can't be the default.

The easiest overall answer is likely to establish a concrete injury system separate from HP, making the "hurr magical shouting" confusion inexcusable.
I pretty much written off the warlord. If it doesn't heal and it can't grant allies actions I really don't care what else it can do. Those were the things I loved about the class. I'm hoping that bard doesn't turn out to sucking cause I won't be playing a healer otherwise.

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It gets us to the only place worth going, yes.



...I'll leave this one alone, I suppose.

Sure, we could include a convoluted workaround for a "problem" that exists only in the minds of a tiny minority of antisocial control freaks, but it can't be the default.



...really?  No....really?

The easiest overall answer is likely to establish a concrete injury system separate from HP, making the "hurr magical shouting" confusion inexcusable.



Perhaps that could work.  I've used the (Robotech-inspired) example of SDC and Wounds before, for instance.  It's a good, solid potential workaround.  Of course, some will claim that tracking two entirely different sets of stats is in and of itself more confusing (not to mention determining what portion of 'damage' goes to each).  It is -an- answer, but it's hardly quantifiably the 'easiest'.

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

I pretty much written off the warlord. If it doesn't heal and it can't grant allies actions I really don't care what else it can do. Those were the things I loved about the class. I'm hoping that bard doesn't turn out to sucking cause I won't be playing a healer otherwise.


As long as there are enough healer options that someone enjoys playing one groups should be good to go anyway.

I hope bards are going to be a good class but can settle for druids and don't care for clerics.

As far as I am concerned, brewing healing potions during downtime is good enough let alone healing from other classes.