Can my allies target me with "One ally you can see" powers if I'm hidden?

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I know the Rules of the Hidden Club say hidden only applies to enemies and allies ALWAYS know where I am, but still, do they have light of sight on me? Can they target me with powers which specificy "one ally you can see"?
No.  If you're invisible to them, they can't see you.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
If you are hidden, or invisible, they cannot see you.

You can still see them however. 

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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

You do not hide from allies.

Also, "Allies you can see" means they cannot be invisible to you.  You can be invisible to them all day long and still be able to see them. 
Ok so now we have contradictory opinions. Is there any official passage on this in the books?
If you are hidden from your allies, you are invisible to them.  They can not see you.

If you are NOT hidden from your allies, then they likely can see you.

In either event, Undrhil seems to be answers a slightly different question is that you can still use such powers on your allies no matter what; which is true but not what you appear to be asking. 

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

If you are hidden from your allies, you are invisible to them.  They can not see you.

If you are NOT hidden from your allies, then they likely can see you.

In either event, Undrhil seems to be answers a slightly different question is that you can still use such powers on your allies no matter what; which is true but not what you appear to be asking. 



I'm asking if I can use a power who's target is "one ally you can see" on a hidden ally.
I'm asking if I can use a power who's target is "one ally you can see" on a hidden ally.

No.

(note: it is possible to be hidden from some combatants, and visible to others)
I'm asking if I can use a power who's target is "one ally you can see" on a hidden ally.

No.

(note: it is possible to be hidden from some combatants, and visible to others)

Unless you have a good enough passive perception score to have have beaten their stealth check, or you make an active perception check to spot them.  (edit: I think you ninja edited me and added that note)

However, I feel like we need Lord of Weasels to weigh in on this one as the Hidden Club expert.  At the start of the Hidden Club thread it says Hidden only applies to enemies, which would imply you can't be hidden from allies.  However, the rules are contradictory because half the rules only discuss being hidden or invisible to your enemies, while others such as the Stealth rules imply you become hidden from everything.  I think this is partly because many of the rules for concealment don't apply to powers targeting allies because there is no attack roll involved.

 The opposed check for Stealth is described as "Against the passive Perception of each target creature present." So if you have total concealment or superior cover from your allies it would seem you become hidden from them as well, but it isn't clear if you can choose to not include them as a "target creature"
 
You make stealth check against each creature present, which means both allies and enemies. The only exception applying to enemies is when one tries to enter the hidden creature’s space, the creature doesn’t remain hidden from it where it would ifor an ally. There is no other mention of the word enemy in the entire stealth rules other than the the introduction, where in PHB it was an opposed check against enemies.

I don't think i've ever seen a DM enfore it though.

Opposed Check: Against the passive Perception of each target creature present.
Success: The creature becomes hidden from the target.

The confusion here is historical. In the pre-RC stealth rules you could not be Hidden from allies. Being Hidden was irrelevant, your allies could see you by RAW. You could only be Hidden from enemies.

The RC changed "enemies" to "creatures." But it also introduced the word "target." When you roll a stealth check, you are rolling it against specific targets that you choose. You can choose to not have your allies be targets and therefore not be Hidden from them.

Narratively this might not make sense to people. Mechanically those are the rules.
Make some sense but something tick me off. Are ambush or sneaking even possible since it means you aren't hidden from creatures you didn't target meaning anybody closing in after you hid see you ? It would also make you unable to hide from creature already hidden from you that you are unaware of.
Make some sense but something tick me off. Are ambush or sneaking even possible since it means you aren't hidden from creatures you didn't target meaning anybody closing in after you hid see you ? It would also make you unable to hide from creature already hidden from you that you are unaware of.

It says "targets present." Since it doesn't limit targeting and the normal rules for limiting targeting only apply to powers, it should be fine. And it has a blurb about out-of-combat stealthing being up to DM discretion.
Followup question regarding being Hidden from allies:

So when you make a Stealth check, it is now versus all creatures present, meaning that when you are Hidden from an ally, they cannnot see you.

The original poster asked about powers that target "one ally you can see"... What about a power you want to use on any ally, that has as its target "one creature" instead?

For example, my rogue friend becomes Hidden in the square next to me, and he then might have moved to another square or not, I don't really know since he is Hidden. I want to use Lay on Hands on my friend. He is hidden from me, I cannot see him, I am not sure which square he is in (without metagaming) but no problem right? He gets healed as long as he is within melee touch range?

Note that the "Targeting What You Can't See" rules do not seem to apply, since these refer only to making attacks, which my Lay on Hands power is NOT. 
Hiding from allies is a metagame situation, so it won't be adequately handled by any rules.  Simple advice:  don't bother trying it.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Hiding from allies is a metagame situation, so it won't be adequately handled by any rules.  Simple advice:  don't bother trying it.


But you don't really have a choice when you use the Stealth skill. I am not purposing trying to hide from my allies, it just happens because my allies are also creatures. If you hide, you are hidden from allies too. So can I still heal them using my Lay on Hands power?
Yes, you do have a choice.  You can choose to have the game break, or you can choose not to.

Don't hide from your allies.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Yes, you do have a choice.  You can choose to have the game break, or you can choose not to.

Don't hide from your allies.


I agree. I too choose to ignore this oddity of the Stealth rules as written.
The confusion here is historical. In the pre-RC stealth rules you could not be Hidden from allies. Being Hidden was irrelevant, your allies could see you by RAW. You could only be Hidden from enemies.

The RC changed "enemies" to "creatures." But it also introduced the word "target." When you roll a stealth check, you are rolling it against specific targets that you choose. You can choose to not have your allies be targets and therefore not be Hidden from them.

Narratively this might not make sense to people. Mechanically those are the rules.



Just look at what this post explains and realize there's no need to ignore rules....  You're just doing it wrong.
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I would like to point out, though it is probably apparent to most, that there is a difference between Hidden and Invisible.

You can be Invisible, but not Hidden. And likewise you can be Hidden without being Invisible.

Also, with targetting rules, there is Line of Sight and Line of Effect. If a power specifies a target that "you can see" then you must have Line of Sight to them. From how I understand the rules, you do not have Line of Sight to an Invisible target nor to a target that is Hidden.

Of course, this can end up creating some odd circumstances where a Leader cannot heal an ally simply because the ally can't be seen. In my games, this situation rarely comes up. However, when it has, if it is a power that doesn't involve an attack roll (like a buff power) I typically like to interpret "can see" as "know where they are". So if the Ardent character can't see the Vampire character because of a Stealth situation, he can still target the Vampire character with these type of powers since he knows where she is.

I think this is a situation where the DM and players need to have some discussion about how they want to handle it, come to an agreement, and then use that. And, of course, always stay open to rethink it if new powers are gained that make the decision "broken". 
It says "targets present." Since it doesn't limit targeting and the normal rules for limiting targeting only apply to powers, it should be fine.

Repeating myself a lot today.
You can be Invisible, but not Hidden. And likewise you can be Hidden without being Invisible.

The RC definition of hidden includes "When a creature is hidden from an enemy, the creature is silent and invisible to that enemy."  So no, you can't be hidden and not be invisible to some creatures.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Also, with targetting rules, there is Line of Sight and Line of Effect. If a power specifies a target that "you can see" then you must have Line of Sight to them. From how I understand the rules, you do not have Line of Sight to an Invisible target nor to a target that is Hidden.



Thankfully, there are few powers which actually target "creatures you can see."  Most powers target "creatures", including the various leader healing powers.  You do *not* have to be able to see the ally you are healing with Healing Word, for instance.  Since it's a close burst, you don't even have to have straight line of effect, as long as you can trace a line to them from within the burst radius, you are fine to heal them.

Another power which I've actually had my DM say I cannot use to target an invisible enemy: Magic Missle.  It doesn't say "Target: one creature you can see" so it works just fine as long as you know what square the enemy is in. 
You can be Invisible, but not Hidden. And likewise you can be Hidden without being Invisible.

The RC definition of hidden includes "When a creature is hidden from an enemy, the creature is silent and invisible to that enemy."  So no, you can't be hidden and not be invisible to some creatures.



Yes, but being invisible is different from being Invisible. I used the proper noun "Invisible" to indicate a game status as opposed to just a description of the relative visibility of something. So I may use Stealth to become effectively "invisible" but I'm not actually Invisible (transparent, magically obscured, etc). You can be invisible to some creatures and not to others (due to being only blocked from sight from one direction for example), but if you are Invisible, you cannot be seen. Of course, it can still be known where your location is (i.e. not Hidden).

It is unfortunate that many game mechanic terms are the same as otherwise ordinary words used as descriptions because this causes confusion. I may describe a monster as "acting dazed" due to something that happened, but that doesn't mean the monster is Dazed. One person may try to dominate a monster but that doesn't necessarily mean the monster is Dominated. And, possible the worst one ever, when you go up a level with your character in the castle, you aren't necessarily going up a Level with your character.

So I perhaps it would have been better if the RC had said, "When a creature is Hidden from an enemy, the creature cannot be heard or seen by that enemy." 
So I perhaps it would have been better if the RC had said, "When a creature is Hidden from an enemy, the creature cannot be heard or seen by that enemy." 

Perhaps it would be better.  But it didn't say that.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

On related topic, can one be an effective warlord who hides a lot?  Fluff suggests warlords shout a lot to bolster/encourage allies, but very few warlord powers actually include the crunch "an ally who can hear you" (e.g. Inspiring War Cry) or "an ally who can see you" (e.g. Warlord's Rush).

I ask because several Warlord Greater Fighting Styles (Arkhosian Fang Commander, Black Hood Executioner, Desert Moon Zephyr, Moradin's Forge Marshal, Nerathan High Blade Captain, Ninth Legion Commander) and a Lesser Fighting Style (Ninth Legion Student) allow the Warlord to substitute an OA for a warlord power.  

Taking Ninth Legion Student as an example, does anything prevent a hidden warlord from wielding an ally who can't see him with Direct the Strike?
No, but the warlord will lose Hidden status after the ally's basic attack is complete, because the warlord is using an attack power.
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