"Hit Me!"

58 posts / 0 new
Last post
I want to make a build (or two) revolving around some of the various "retributive" abilities D&D seems to be chock full of, Fire Shield probably being the quintessential one. The logic runs something like this:
- There are lots of abilities which hurt people when they hit you
- There are lots of things which give you a benefit with an AC penalty as a drawback (e.g. Karmic Strike, Punishing Stance)
- Retributive damage scales with the number of foes. The more they hit you, the more damage you deal, without you even needing to take an actions (so you could be making full-attacks or casting spells or healing with ease)
After all, Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit are already pretty popular; if you expected to be hit anyway, I can see amping up the damage you do.

Of course you'd risk taking a lot of damage so you'd probably need a lot of DR, self-healing, and maybe stuff like Evasive Reflexes (PA is going to crush you). You'd also need a way to make sure foes do hit you, and not just go after your squishy team-mates making you feel like a spare part, but there are plenty of these (Goad, Iron Guard's Glare, Defensive Rebuke, Mindless Rage, etc).

Overall, it's probably not worth the effort, but it's something I'd like to try (read: request for "theme build" within these parameters - don't tell me it's a bad idea without at least trying as that's not what I was asking, and it's about as helpful as a chocolate teapot). So, any suggestions? I'm thinking some kind of gish will do best (Defensive Rebuke etc are not a threat otherwise, you probably want Crusader, but you also need access to those spells).
Does my Kris the Sadomasochist build count?
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Linking that last one for Draco. It might count. If you're looking for gishing options, you might need Jade Phoenix Mage.

Be advised that Robilar's and Karmic don't "stack" - you don't get two hits to one (Caelic's legendary Jack B Quick build was just bumped, and it's not actually Six Hits To One as a result of this - it's more three hits to one (sword/axe/trip/sword).). 

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

You could do it as a cleric/crusader with the sun domain (so that fire shiled is a 4th lv spell) or fire domain (5th lv spell). Something like cleric 4/crusader 4/RKV 10/crusader +2.
I have been working on a bbeg for a campaign I'm running with this exact idea in mind. My current thoughts so far are along the same lines as you with using fire sheild, along with the "retributive" line of items such as from the bracers of retribution and the retributive amulet. Some of the spells I considered were body blades, and many other spell I can't recall right now (the spell compendium is full of them). The best way I found at making this goal a reality was using crusader/rkv (like scythal suggested) and layering multiple sources of retributive damage to really make the damage worth using. My only issue is getting the thing enough defenses so it isn't gimped in the first few rounds, but that's always a dm problem. Ill post my finalized build tonight or tommorow and some spells I found useful though.
Can you get your DM to let you buy the 56,000 gp version of retributive amulet from Book of Exalted Deeds instead of the 9,000 gp version from Magic Item Compendium?  The expensive version splits all damage you take from melee attacks between you and the attacker.  

You could take the troll blooded feat (Dragon 319, p61) for regeneration 1, overcome by acid and fire.  The taint-blooded template (Bestiary of Krynn) gives acid immunity for +1 LA.  The Imix-blooded template (Monster Manual V) gives immunity to fire for +1 LA.  Those templates are both deliberately added via rituals, so this combination is only as improbable as someone born with the troll blooded feat seeking out ways to protect himself from acid and fire.  If you're starting at a level where you can afford it, the mantle of the fiery spirit spell (Sandstorm) is a better choice than Imix-blooded.  

While under the effects of stone body (Spell Compendium) a transmute mud to rock spell heals you back to full, no matter how hurt you were. 
I've always liked Psychic Warrior for this sort of idea, it gets bonus feats o-plenty, powers that provide DR and HP stealing options (I prefer the Vampiric Claws or Weapon to the Hostile Empathic Transfer option). It's not hard to make a Psychic Warrior that can do this sort of trick extremely effectively.

What you still need however is to get the "Taunt" type ability either by taking Goad or Martial Study/Stance and somehow still have enough feats left over to improve your PP sustainability via something like the Psycarnum Warrior trick. Although possibly something like Persistant Power might just sort out the PP issue by covering one of your buffs all day, it really limits your options otherwise.
Frostbite and Sandstorm each has a spell/ritual that gives you immunity to ice and fire respectively, though I don't remember their names of the top of my head, though I think they are Lv. 8 or 9 spells on the Cleric and Druid lists(if you want non-LA immunities).  There's a couple of classes that give immunity to lightning, but I'm not sure of anything beyond what's mentioned that gives acid immunity, much less Sonic or Force (aside from half-dragon (Black, Emerald, and Amethest(sp?) respectively)).
King of Smack type builds work out well with this.  You use Weapon of the Vampire or Claws of the Vampire along with a high base weapon damage to gain some temp HP.  Every time a foe hits you, you take the damage off your temp HP, then hit them with your mighty ham fists, gaining back a bunch of temp HP which get shaved off the next hit and reapplied by the followup swing.  As long as you keep hitting with your rebuttal and you don't get hit TOO hard, you shouldn't lose very many actual HP while dishing out a savage beating.
Exactly the sort of build I'm talking about Wyvernhand. PW's great for this, just a solid choice.
Don't forget perfect riposte
There are some nice options to improve it now, but here'sthe classic.

Tempest: Yes they do. They are two separate abilities.  


They absolutely should, and there wasn't errata on this (like a lot of latter 3.5 mechanics), but this was one area on which CustServ was entirely consistent. It showed up here in the Jack thread; you'll note Caelic accepted it. (There is a logic to the ruling (unlike some custserv rulings which are complete ass pulls), although I don't think it's got a solid foundation in the rules.)

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Hmm, I do like the look of PsyWar for this. Empathic Transfer I'd thought of, but doesn't Claws of the Vampire only heal, not grant temp HP? It'd be nice with something like Karmic Strike, of course. Plus you could use Share Pain + Vigour or the like.

Really, I want to try and use something more like Fire Shield. Karmic and Robilar's are great and would fit just right but there are oodles of "don't hit me" spells which nobody ever seems to use. There are a few items which do similar stuff, though many of them are underwhelming on their own.

Crusader also seems perfect because it has a lot to encourage attack and to heal, and Steely Resolve helps keep you alive even if you do suffer a HP overload.

One that I thought about was Dread Necro. I think you get Death Armour as well as DR, and the ability to heal yourself infinitely with Tomb-Tainted Soul. Maybe something like DN 4/Crusader 1 at lower levels, but it doesn't amaze me.
Why not a Crusader/Incarnate?

Maybe...

Dwarf, Crusader 1/Incarnate 4/Ironsoul Forgemaster 10/Deepstone Sentinel 5

Mantle of Flame on the Shoulders chakra means you're dealing 1d6 +1d6/essentia for everyone that strikes you.  If you're evil or you took Necrocarnum Acolyte, you can also take something like Necrocarnum Vestments to also auto-damage anyone who is adjacent to you at the end of your turn (although the latter is kind of meh for what it gives you).

You'll have a ton of defensive options - incarnates can be surprisingly beefy with a ton of immunities and ways to boost defenses, crusader gives you things like Martial Spirit for healing, ironsoul forgemaster gives you scaling DR and energy resistance on demand, and deepstone sentinel of course has several nice defensive perks.  You'll be making terrain arround you difficult all the time, so go ahead and combine that with some lockdown tactics, so that enemies don't just start ignoring you and attacking your allies.  When they DO attack you, they'll take retributive damage from your Mantle of Flame, plus whatever weapons you happen to feel like whacking them with.

I'd probably go NE, because honestly the necrocarnum soulmelds are pretty decent, and there really aren't any good-only soulmelds you'll miss.  Necrocarnum Circlet is one of the best low-level options available, giving you a very nice free necrocarnum zombie.  The Necrocarnum Vestments bound to the heart chakra gives you bonus HP and immunity to stunning and death attacks, making them a pretty competitive choice with the Strongheart Vest.  Otherwise, LN is probably your best choice (and more traditionally dwarfy).
Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike are two separate effects that occur at different times. So, while you're technically correct in that they don't "stack," you still wind up with two AoO per attack, four with Double Hit 

Even though the responses allowed by the feats are different in timing, because they're both triggered by the same opportunity (the opponent's attack), you can only make one or the other.

The limit on multiple attacks of opportunity is based on the opportunities presented by your opponent, rather than on how or when you're able to respond to them.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
OK well I can buy the logic behind that, but I don't see anything in the rules about it. It looks like they didn't even think of it when they wrote the feats, they just went "Oh, two AoOs per one attack is silly" way after the fact, and it's not errata, so whatever. Anyway, it's by-the-by; Karmic and/or Robilar's may be sure to find their way into any sort of "retributive" build but they're not the point of it and besides, you can keep your flame wars to your own damn saves. Wink

I do like Incarnate, though. At lower levels particularly, the Astral Vambraces are great for keeping you alive, and Mantle of Flame probably works better than a lot of things (shame it's Fire though... could use that Cold Fire spell or whatever it's called).
Even though the responses allowed by the feats are different in timing, because they're both triggered by the same opportunity (the opponent's attack), you can only make one or the other.

Wrong. That's akin to claiming you cannot attack the same person twice for provoking twice in movement.

You can't attack the same person twice for provoking twice in movement, at least not if it's in the same movement.  It's even specifically called out in the PHB (on page 138):

"Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent."
Attack and damage are two separate triggers on two separate things. That means a hit results in two attacks.

Where does either feat specify being triggered by damage?  One feat requires that the attack triggering your attack of opportunity is successful, but neither one requires your opponent to deal any damage.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

From the SRD  This is something I myself had assumed was incorrect until very recently, but it's pretty clear when you read it.

Likewise.

Also, that paragraph includes the basis for the anti-Robilar's/Karma argument: the incoming attack is the same opportunity for both feats. Karmic waits until it hits, and Robilar delays the AoO until after it hits or misses - both give the same opportunity to respond. One just only works if the attack is successful. (And, as noted, both respond to the attack - neither look at the damage roll. You can Karmic against a Stand Still attack or a touch attack.)

Now, as mentioned, I think if you pay for both feats (in prereqs and in penalty) they should stack (one riposte on a miss, two on a hit), but at least I can see where the no stacking logic comes from. And let's be honest: Robilar is so much better (and Karmic has an extra prereq) that the only reason to use Karmic is at a low level game (before BAB 12). With retraining there isn't much of a problem here.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

By that ruling no one should ever take karmic strike and it should be erased as a feat and it's existence forgotten. If you gonna use custserv rulings, use all of them. Don't just ignore some. You can't just pick and choose which rulings you want to abide by. Use all or none.
Like I said - I don't see it spelt out in the rules, but I could buy a DM's logic if he wanted to rule it that way. Whether you call it a "house rule" or simply an "interpretation", I don't really case.

Given I'm thinking gish here, getting a +12 BAB isn't like to happen until after L12, which means your L15 feat at best (unless you only lose a point or two, and dip Fighter or similar), which is a pretty high level. Thus, it's more likely to be Karmic or nothing, with Robilar's only for high-level play.

The most obvious thing to me seems to be a plain old Wizard-based gish. Reach weapon, Combat Reflexes and Karmic, and you just buff with things like Fire Shield, Death Armour, Mestil's Acid Sheath, etc. You have plenty of ways to deal damage, and Heart of Stone and the like for DR to keep you alive.
A more interesting twist might be to use something like Evard's Menacing Tentacles (can the tentacles take AoOs via Karmic, in addition to your own?) with Extend Tentacles for more reach and maybe touch spells rather than weapon damage. You probably want Persistant abuse for that, though.

I'm not sure that's necessarily the best thing, though. You really want to dip Crusader to keep people attacking you, or rely on Mindless Rage, which I suppose is OK.
By that ruling no one should ever take karmic strike and it should be erased as a feat and it's existence forgotten.

The advantage of Karmic Strike is that, even though the opponent's attack must technically be successful, mechnically you still interrupt it to deliver your own attack first (potentially stopping their "successful" attack entirely, depending on what you do).  Of course, if your attack doesn't stop your opponent, their attack will land successfully, since that's already determined.

I do agree that Karmic Strike's prerequisite feats kind of suck, especially compared to Robilar's Gambit.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
By that ruling no one should ever take karmic strike and it should be erased as a feat and it's existence forgotten. If you gonna use custserv rulings, use all of them. Don't just ignore some. You can't just pick and choose which rulings you want to abide by. Use all or none.


Karmic is available much sooner (6th 1st instead of 12th) and interrupts enemy attacks (Robilar's is unique among AoOs in that it delays until after the provoking action), although Karmic did imply it "partially" delayed as well (i.e. if you're hit and you use the AoO to kill your attacker, does he roll damage? What if you use it on Evasive Reflexes and step out of his reach, so the attack couldn't have hit in the first place?). 

Robilar's is better - both mechanically and in terms of its design - and it's on a better prerequisite track. If you do end up taking Karmic you will certainly retrain it later.

(EDITED: For some reason I remembered Karmic as having a BAB+6 requirement instead of just two defensive and non-AoO related feats.)

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Karmic only needs Combat Expertise and Dodge. With bonus feats of various sorts (e.g. Human Fighter), it's available as early as L1.
Robilar's is better - both mechanically and in terms of its design - and it's on a better prerequisite track. If you do end up taking Karmic you will certainly retrain it later. 

I have mixed feelings about which is better in terms of design; Karmic Strike fits its benefit and penalties together quite beautifully, since the penalty actually helps the benefit to trigger (because it requires a separate attack), unlike Robilar's Gambit, where the penalty is just a tax for using the ability.  It's a nice design, regardless of its overall worth.

In terms of mechanical benefits, Robilar's Gambit has the advantage of not needing your opponent to make a successful hit, but the significant disadvantage of not getting to attack before your opponent (so they have the chance to take you out first), while Karmic Strike reverses that.

The choice of which one is better (prerequisites aside) depends on how able you are to survive an opponent's attack and to disable them in return.  If you're generally confident that you can thwart your opponent with your attack of opportunity, Karmic Strike is better, since the opponent doesn't even get a chance when you do that (it also means the penalty you took to AC doesn't matter against that opponent).  But a lot of specifics come into play; if you're healing yourself with attacks, Robilar's Gambit triggering later becomes a boon.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
For the purposes of doing damage on-hit, you kind of want to be hit anyway, so Karmic works just fine.
For the purposes of doing damage on-hit, you kind of want to be hit anyway, so Karmic works just fine.

I'd actually call that a count against Karmic Strike, since one of its advantages is the potential of interrupting an otherwise successful hit.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
If you can interrupt someone by killing them, it doesn't matter. If you're just hitting them (and don't kill them), then you won't interrupt them. No worries.
This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity).



Seems pretty clear you can't get multiple AoOs from the same opportunity, regardless if the trigger is movement or anything else. Karmic and Robilar both provide AoOs from being attacked.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Hmm, never read Karmic Strike as interrupting an enemy attack. You just got to swing before the damage was actually applied, never even considered you could stop it. (Sidestep would just take you out of range as the big cut opened across your torso...the attack already hit, how are you going to avoid it?)

Karmic Strike's origin is from Lo5R...the thematic idea is that both blows resolve in the same instant, the duel is a tie, and both participants die. 

But, yeah, same opportunity, they don't stack. It's akin to hitting them when they leave their first square or their second...it's all still from movement, even if the timing is different.

==Aelryinth  
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity).

Seems pretty clear you can't get multiple AoOs from the same opportunity, regardless if the trigger is movement or anything else. Karmic and Robilar both provide AoOs from being attacked. 
It seems I wasn't clear enough and wrote something that could be interpreted in two ways (I was writing from my phone).

I meant the bolded bit in the sense that they both provide the same opportunity. Combat Reflexes (the source for every AoO past the first) is rather clear: If two different things allow an attack from the same (nonstandard) opportunity, you don't get to take two attacks - it's the same opportunity (namely, responding to an incoming attack roll after success is determined; Karmic just makes that opportunity contingent upon the result.).

Again, I think they should stack. I'm simply saying there is a logic to this particular ruling, unlike so many of the other bizarre ones out there.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.



 Technically, both feats (Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit) are being triggered by the one opportunity, but since abilities that grant multiple attacks of opportunity in a round (like Combat Reflexes) limit you to one attack per opportunity, you aren't able to use both.

There's no "maybe" about it; both the core rules and the Rules Compendium are clear that you can only make one attack of opportunity per opportunity.
Even moving beyond that, though, they're two separate triggers that occur at two similar but separate times.

The opportunity that triggers both is the attack made by your opponent and they don't perform any separate action.  How are there two triggering opportunities?

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
 It's hard to say with Headlong Rush given its poorly-written description (which ignores the vital question of when the attacks of opportunity occur during the charge), and reach weapons don't help due to the PHB's statement that "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent."

I accept that Hold the Line is certainly a possibility that might give more than one attack of opportunity as currently written.  There's a separate line of argument about actions, but I'm not going to get into that if we don't need to do so.

So, when you noted that my statement was akin to saying you don't provoke twice for the same movement, you meant that the statement was generally correct under normal circumstances, but could be incorrect in a couple of specific circumstances?   The text of Karmic Strike defines the triggering occurence as a successful attack: "On your action, you choose to take a -4 penalty to your Armour Class in exchange for the ability to make an attack of opportunity against any creature that makes a successful melee attack or melee touch attack against you."

It's clearly describing the attack as the triggering occurence.  The word "hits" is only used as a general description of that occurence after this definition is given: "The opponent that hits you must be in your threatened area, and this feat does not grant you more attacks of opportunity than you are normally allowed in a round. "

Robilar's Gambit describes the triggering occurence in this manner: "In return, they provoke attacks of opportunity from you each time they swing. Resolve your attack of opportunity after your foe’s attack."


 As noted above, while Karmic Strike does talk about "The opponent that hits you" needing to be in your threatened area, the circumstance to which it attaches the triggering opportunity is a successful "attack".

The attack does need to be determined as successful, so you do obviously need to compare the potential provoker's attack roll to the AC of the target with Karmic Strike, even if the performance of that successful attack is actually interrupted and potentially foiled by the use of the feat.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
I have removed content from this thread because Trolling is a violation of the Code of Conduct.

You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_...

Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.

If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the Report Post button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
 
Actually, as I read it, a charge is 1 action. Thus you would get 1 AoO.
Tempest: Yes they do. They are two separate abilities.  

From a mechanical point of view, they don't. They both trigger off the same action (an attack roll). One feat is unconditional, and applies regardless of the result. The other applies only if the attack roll is successful. This isn't MTG. There aren't various stops and priorities from a mechanics standpoint. There are only actions and effects. And by RAW in 3.5 only actions can trigger Attacks of Opportunity. There is nothing in the rules that implies that effects can trigger AOO. Everything in the rules about AOO refers exclusively to actions triggering:

"An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you."
"Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity..."
"Remember that even actions that normally provoke attacks of opportunity may have exceptions to this rule."
"An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round."

www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOppor...
(Emphasis mine, obviously.)

The only way you can argue otherwise is if you claim that an attack is one action and a hit is a different action from a rules standpoint. You can make that argument from a narrative standpoint but arguing rules from a narrative standpoint is pretty pointless. There is no support for those two concepts being different actions anywhere in 3.5. In fact, the word "action" is clearly defined by the rules as well:

www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInComba...

Frankly, both rules are poorly written and their conditions are written in such a way as to obfusticate the foundational rules of Attacks of Opportunity. If rules in 3.5 had any sort of standardization or organization, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. But that's neither here nor there.
I'm not a lawyer, I just play one on TV.
Headlong Rush's AoO still arises from moving. It's one opportunity, no matter how many squares he crosses.

tempest's example is more along the lines of : Fred attacks Joe, who has Robilar's, and attempts a disarm. Joe gets an AoO from Robilar's, and gets another AoO because Fred doesn't have improved Disarm. Those are different opportunities: One from attacking, the other for attempting a disarm without the feat to stop an AoO.

Hold the Line qualifies as another opportunity, because it triggers on ENTERING a square. Normal move AoO's trigger on attempting to LEAVE one. Regardless, you'd still only get one per incidence of movement...entering two squares one after another isn't going to provoke two HTL AoO's.

==Aelryinth
 
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
I should stay out of this flame war but will say the AoO generated by Hold the Line is not the same as the one generated by leaving a threatened square.
I have removed content from this thread because baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct.

You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_...

Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.

If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the Report Post button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
 
I probably said that wrong. You can't get two Hold the Line AoO's out of someone entering two squares that you threaten. You can get an AoO for him entering and leaving a square you threaten in the same movement, however.

==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
I probably said that wrong. You can't get two Hold the Line AoO's out of someone entering two squares that you threaten. You can get an AoO for him entering and leaving a square you threaten in the same movement, however.

==Aelryinth

I'm not quite sure how you'd trigger Hold the Line's AoO at the exact same time you could provoke a "leaving a threated square" although it may be possible.  I guess if you're looking at something with a significant reach that starts inside your reach BUT far enough way that it can still charge you it will provoke the "leaving threatened square" as it starts Charging you while Hold the Line's AoO triggers enters an area you threaten; the real question here may be if Hold the Line ever actually gets triggered as the creature does NOT "enter" an area you threaten as it is already in an area you threaten.

Now even in this situation one AoO happens when trying to move out of the threatened space and the HtL AoO would trigger when entering then next space.