should spells crit?

Should spells crit? (By rolling a 1 on the saving throw)

If so, what should happen.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

IMO: Yes.

Maximized + an effect depending on the damage type

Fire burns
ice reduces your dex saves
acid reduces AC
Lighting dazes
Radiant blinds
Ect...

Note, i would do the same for weapons bludgeing is max + daze for instance.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Not with the disparity in damage, they shouldn't imo.  Disparity in damage is fine, but the one of the many tradeoffs is you don't get to hit extra hard.

I might make an exception for rays where you actually roll an attack...but definitely nothing with saves.

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

I would only include this as part of Fumble rules, rather than part of Critical Hits.
No.

Magic is already heading down the 3.x path so please don't push for it to get stronger. 5% chance for a spell to be even more awesome? People might just start failing saves on purpose so they don't have to roll.... Specially if they know they have a low chance of passing in the first place.

Actually they should take out critical fails, as another person said... Did Michael Jordan punch himself 5% of the time while going to jam a basketball?
No.

I am actually against every critical hit system that has ever been presented in a D&D book to date though, so that no is conditional - if a new style of critical hit came along that didn't have such an overtly dramatic effect upon the outcome of a battle, I might support it.

Edited to Add an Example: If each spell had a specific critical hit effect that didn't revolve around direct damage, for instance - like a fireball adding a push or prone effect on a crit, a lightning bolt dazing or dazzling, or a thunderwave having a more intense push.

...and of course I would want that to apply to weapons by type as well, though picking the exact effect is a bit tricky (disarms, weapon damage, armor damage, trips, dazing and so on)

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

Attack cantrip spells should be able to crit. Other spells should not. A lucky crit on a high level spell is problematic. 

5 Minute WorkdayMy Webcomic Updated Tue & Thur

The compilation of my Worldbuilding blog series is now available: 

Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuilding.

Should spells crit? (By rolling a 1 on the saving throw) If so, what should happen.



Yes, mainly because Crits and Fumbles are fun. I say this with a caveat--my casters must roll for spells, and both my campaigns use the Paizo crit decks, which everyone finds exciting (and occassionally, excrutiating). There have been at least 3 instances where crits have saved the day for the party (as well as a couple where the almighty wizard spell went pft! at the wrong moment). However, as far as the rules go, I'd say Crits and Fumbles should be completely optional. Some folks just don't like the swinginess, and some players, in particular, don't want to see their limited resources fail when they use them. I think failure should always be a part of the equation because it adds the level of suspense I want and the players I have seem to like.
A lot of people are complaining that fighter/melee is less effective than spellcaster. If everything remains like that, no. Let melee weapons have another perk over spells. Since most spells do damage even when an opponent saves critical hits are probably unnecessary.

A Brave Knight of WTF

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

"Yes, mainly because Crits and Fumbles are fun." - this is how I feel.

I'd have to say that fumbles are a preference - some groups like them, and some don't, so it'd be great if there were balanced optional rules for them (that don't screw over multiple-attacks-in-a-round characters).

However, who doesn't like the thrill of rolling a natural 20? Other than current D&DN testers, who don't really get anything interesting when they do (woo, another damage die and maybe high damage, perhaps).

Max damage, plus some relevant bonus damage; probably between +25% to +50% extra damage on top of max, and preferably some sort of neat effect if possible.

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."

Ok.. Presume spells will be rebalanced with crits in mind, and thus won't be a factor.

Would you want them?
Are they fun, or not fun.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Ok..  Presume spells will be rebalanced with crits in mind, and thus won't be a factor.

Would you want them?
Are they fun, or not fun.

The old crit rule is more fun than the new one. Max damage + extra die. I've been a proponent of Max damage + exploding d6 for crits. I think rolling an exploding d6 is exciting.

If all spells were balanced to include crits, I'd say yes.  Let them crit. 

A Brave Knight of WTF

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

Anything that requires an attack roll should crit.  

Danny

Only spells that make attack rolls.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Anything that requires an attack roll should crit.  



^^this

Only spells that make attack rolls.



^^and this


Simple and consistent is good.  Spells that don't have attack rolls don't need to get carried away with the additional benefit.
If it has an attack roll, it should crit on 20. Not for save-spells, but a natural 1 should be an automatic failure for a saving throw (and a 20 a success).
Should spells crit? (By rolling a 1 on the saving throw) If so, what should happen.


I think they should be able to crit, but I think it should be different.

For at-will spells, and healing spells, they should be able to crit for extra damage just like weapons do.

For other spells, I think they should have some kind of other effect.  Perhaps an extended duration, an enlarged area of effect, or just disadvantage on saves against the spell.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

NO.

They should not.

Casters can already out-damage non-casters and even if their damage is (appropriately) significantly reduced (back to the point where damage output between a Wizard and a Fighter is about where it was in AD&D would be good) I still don't like it.

Magic is already all about "spike damage" through daily spells, it doesn't need more of a damage spike. 
NO.

They should not.

Casters can already out-damage non-casters and even if their damage is (appropriately) significantly reduced (back to the point where damage output between a Wizard and a Fighter is about where it was in AD&D would be good) I still don't like it.

Magic is already all about "spike damage" through daily spells, it doesn't need more of a damage spike. 


  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

attack roll spells should be able to crit.

saving throws are already unfair enough for the saver. 
attack roll spells should be able to crit.

saving throws are already unfair enough for the saver. 



This comment shows ignorance of the maths, and the reality of "save for half".

Crit damage of any kind, on any spell, is unecessary and (especially at the moment with damage skewed so far in favour of casters, but even after that is fixed still) unbalancing. 
Yes, mainly because Crits and Fumbles are fun.

I'd have to say that fumbles are a preference - some groups like them, and some don't, so it'd be great if there were balanced optional rules for them (that don't screw over multiple-attacks-in-a-round characters).

However, who doesn't like the thrill of rolling a natural 20? Other than current D&DN testers, who don't really get anything interesting when they do (woo, another damage die and maybe high damage, perhaps).

Max damage, plus some relevant bonus damage; probably between +25% to +50% extra damage on top of max, and preferably some sort of neat effect if possible.




Feel free to disagree and state your side, but don't edit my posts, please. Respond all you want, but what you respond to really should be unexpurgated. No one here outside of the monitors is in charge of what anyone posts.  Thanks for understanding.

Specific neat effects can also be achieved by creative players or GM's, particularly if one wants to apply conditions. Straight up max damage is definitely the simplest crit to manage, however, without resorting to a sundry list of crit effects. I still don't personally understand why anyone would allow crits without fumbles, since, it would seem, once mirrors the other, but certainly those could be optional as well, for folks who have problems with doing anything more than simply failing. I think you miss out on some memorable moments that way, with the experience running a wider gamut of emotional highs and lows, but if folks want an "I can only succeed or succeed better" milieu, they should be allowed to play it that way.
Might as well do it for Ray of Cold since it's just a crossbow pretending to be a spell.
but if folks want an "I can only succeed or succeed better" milieu, they should be allowed to play it that way.



For someone who is nit picking over how their own posts are quoted this is a particularly egregious example of blatant misrepresentation and ad hominem.

I dislike critical failure systems for d20 based mechanics because they assume that 5% of any attempt to perform any significant action will result in spectacular failure.

This is a poor model of real world events and highly unsatisfying in terms of modeling heroic action.

While I could accept critical failure on a rolled 1 where this is already a failure (indicating the higher risk of perform truly risky actions) my experience indicates that such high automatic rates of failure are both a poor model, an impediment to good role playing and an unecessary penalty on the characters who rely on "check to succeed" mechanics.

If all classes relied on "check to succeed" mechanics, rather than only non-casters, this would be less offensive.  But this is unlikely and (from a tradition perspective) undesireable.

Better to leave the house rules for critical fumbles where they belong, firmly in the "house rule" category.

The books should have significant caveat emptor warnings for common and damaging examples of "house rules" such as these and explanations of how they undermine the mechanics of the system and the balance between the classes.       
but if folks want an "I can only succeed or succeed better" milieu, they should be allowed to play it that way.



For someone who is nit picking over how their own posts are quoted this is a particularly egregious example of blatant misrepresentation and ad hominem.

I dislike critical failure systems for d20 based mechanics because they assume that 5% of any attempt to perform any significant action will result in spectacular failure.

This is a poor model of real world events and highly unsatisfying in terms of modeling heroic action.

While I could accept critical failure on a rolled 1 where this is already a failure (indicating the higher risk of perform truly risky actions) my experience indicates that such high automatic rates of failure are both a poor model, an impediment to good role playing and an unecessary penalty on the characters who rely on "check to succeed" mechanics.

If all classes relied on "check to succeed" mechanics, rather than only non-casters, this would be less offensive.  But this is unlikely and (from a tradition perspective) undesireable.

Better to leave the house rules for critical fumbles where they belong, firmly in the "house rule" category.

The books should have significant caveat emptor warnings for common and damaging examples of "house rules" such as these and explanations of how they undermine the mechanics of the system and the balance between the classes.       




The statement about editing my post was not an attack on anyone, but rather a request to present my views as they were actually stated before presenting points of disagreement. The quote of mine you used is obviously my opinion. If I were stating someone else's position for the purposes of debate or discussion, I would quote it exactly as it appeared, which is what I requested for my own position in the first place, and what I am doing right now, concerning your own statements.  Now, if you'd like me to cross out what you said solely for the purposes of diminishing your own opinions while promoting my own, let me know. You don't strike me as someone who would like being edited, either. In any case, I don't feel it's my place to do that, so I didn't and don't.  I was simply asking for the same courtesy.

As for your ideas on the actual subject, any suggestion that a certain way to roll dice is "poor" or "good" (the word "offensive," as well) demands a framework for comparison, as whether something is "good" or not is totally a subjective matter. "Good," "poor" "offensive" are all value judgments. I think we can speak of whether something is efficient or not, or cause "imbalance" (though, we both know, people argue the validity of balance as a game feature, as well).  Certainly I think it's fair to say that using crits or fumbles does not make anyone a better or worse roleplayer. Both are acknowledgements of the role of luck in the game. And honestly, since we must roll dice, one could argue that a great deal of the game is luck anyway, so any argument of "good" or "bad" roleplaying is rather difficult to make, especially concerning a crit/fumble subset, which is about dice rolling, not role-playing (I assume here that role playing means playing one's character consistently).

I think the simplest thing to consider here is the role of luck. Some people like luck in their game. The like the tangible element of the dice. My position is obviously that, if you're going to include good luck, you probably should allow for bad luck as well. That's my own method balancing crit/fumble use. If you want the boons, you have to live with the busts. Again, my position only, but I wouldn't mind applying crits and fumbles to spellcasters in cases where a roll is necessary. Then again, I'd like to see casters roll the dice more anyway, but that's another issue entirely.

We agree on fumbles being optional. Not sure if we agree on crits.  We don't seem to agree on whether there should be codified, optional rules in the basic game. We don't agree on "buyer beware" warnings on crits & fumbles because of "undermining" effects, mainly because the tone is subjective and, again, a value judgment. I grant that some fair and balanced commentary about the mathematical impact of crits (and fumbles) might be worthwhile, if someone sincerely wants to know how changing 5% of successes into super successes (or the opposite) affects the nuts & bolts of the game. More knowledge on the subject may help folks to make up their minds about this issue, if they are on the fence about it.

All of this does lead me to a tangential question about the reasons why folks like/don't like crits. You seem to paint them as undermining the game's mechanics (and insinuate that using them make one a poor roleplayer). I like using both because my groups' litmus test is our own version of fun, and we find the suspense and unpredictability fun. I had not considered the whole mechanical argument, and am now curious as to what reasons folks have for liking/disliking crits and/or fumbles. I always assumed it was more fun to run with these things than without. Perhaps there is more to this than I thought?

Might as well do it for Ray of Cold since it's just a crossbow pretending to be a spell.



A crossbow aimed just right could induce slowed movement I am sure... 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Anything that requires an attack roll should crit.  

+ 1
I think that all spells should be able to crit, because I think that all spells should require an attack roll.

And by "all" I mean, almost all, of course.  There can always be some rare exceptions.  Then again, weapon users should have exceptions where they don't have to actually roll to hit in order to be awesome too.

But seeing as the vast majority of spells don't require an attack roll and saving throws tend to become a cruel joke on the caster's victim ("What, you thought you actually had a chance to avoid that spell?  LOL!")  ... there's no reason why we also need to pile on more win.   

But no one should have to deal with crit fumbles, they just suck, for reasons I've stated in other threads.

I hate to say it but I really am very disappointed that Next is seems to be "D&D: Revenge of The Spellcasters Edition."  It doesn't have to be that way.  There's still time to change it.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

One thing to keep in mind in this type of discussion is monsters. Monsters now use spells and often are a level or two higher than the PCs to be a challenge for the whole party.
If all spells can crit, then the Big Bad can crit the PCs with a high damage spell. Exit the wizard rogue as they become a fine red mist.

5 Minute WorkdayMy Webcomic Updated Tue & Thur

The compilation of my Worldbuilding blog series is now available: 

Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuilding.

IMO Only touch spells should have attack roll and be able to crit , which should be few. I prefer if most spells keep that dinstinction of save mechanic. 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I think that all spells should be able to crit, because I think that all spells should require an attack roll.

And by "all" I mean, almost all, of course.  There can always be some rare exceptions.  Then again, weapon users should have exceptions where they don't have to actually roll to hit in order to be awesome too.

But seeing as the vast majority of spells don't require an attack roll and saving throws tend to become a cruel joke on the caster's victim ("What, you thought you actually had a chance to avoid that spell?  LOL!")  ... there's no reason why we also need to pile on more win.

This post (and I'm not criticising this poster; I just quote it because it's a well-written example) points out something I've been noticing for quite some time. Many people have the mindset that spell = damage. There are a number of spells that are not designed to do damage. Yet they should have an attack roll and be able to crit?

Broad sweeps of a paintbrush can trivialise those parts that don't fit the generalisation. Invisibility doesn't need an attack roll. Light placed on a staff doesn't need an attack roll. Spellcasters aren't simply PCs that blow stuff up. There are plenty of things that a spellcaster can do that are outside of that description.

To answer the initial question, I'll put together two or three respondents' answers: I think that damage-causing spells that are "touch" range should require an attack roll, and such a spell should be able to deliver critical damage.

In memory of wrecan and his Unearthed Wrecana.

So the general conclusions seems to be...

"Rewarded" for rolling a 20 is fun.
"Punished" for rolling a 1 is not.
Even though the math is the same.


Yes? 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

As a generalisation from what has been said here, yes. Some of us still use fumble results, though.

In memory of wrecan and his Unearthed Wrecana.

As a generalisation from what has been said here, yes. Some of us still use fumble results, though.

No reason you couldn't have a fumble table module.  It just wouldn't be the default, nor would spells be balanced around that.



Personally, i would make players always roll, for attacks, spells, saves, and AC.  And they could have critical saves (dodge the entire spell) and such.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

As a set of optional rules yes.     

The 2e Players Option: Spells and Magic book provided all sorts of rules for spell crits.     If I recal you had to fail your save by 5 or more in order to roll on the hit location and effect chart.   Area spells could crit hit multiple locations.      It was quite extensive and the system had charts for each type of damage inflicted (fire, cold, etc).


  They are doing half on a miss, they probably shouldn't also be critting.  Although if crit continues to mean "add a die" rather than "do significantly more damage" then the point is pretty much moot.


Crit damage of any kind, on any spell, is unecessary and (especially at the moment with damage skewed so far in favour of casters, but even after that is fixed still) unbalancing. 



  Is it?  Wizards can certainly shine for a couple rounds or against many targets, but a wizard only gets 1 meteor swarm a day at higher level, and that costs him 25,000 GP to use it since it could have been a wish.  Meanwhile the rogue is putting out 3d10 + 10d8 + d4 + 10 + 2x magic item bonus + 2x buff bonus + other bonuses, so an easy 70 or 80 damage, every round.  The "broken" cloud kill is only doing 27 and uses up the wizard's concentration, if the wizard has used up his tiny handfull of top spell slots and resorts to the rather pathetic ray of frost it's doing 22.5. 

@mikemearls don't quite understand the difference

I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down. - Eric Cartman

Enough chitchat!  Time is candy! - Pinky Pie

4e spells could crit, and they where balanced just fine.  No reason 5e couldn't be.


Of course, weather they should / fun / ect..  for spells to crit is another question, which is what i'm asking.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

IMO Only touch spells should have attack roll and be able to crit , which should be few. I prefer if most spells keep that dinstinction of save mechanic. 

I agree. The distinction of the save mechanic is nice.


So the general conclusions seems to be...

"Rewarded" for rolling a 20 is fun.
"Punished" for rolling a 1 is not.
Even though the math is the same.


Yes?

Pretty much!

4e spells could crit, and they where balanced just fine.  No reason 5e couldn't be.


Of course, weather they should / fun / ect..  for spells to crit is another question, which is what i'm asking.

Saving throws are triggered attempts to resist an effect. The language of scoring a critical hit is awkward in that regard.

I like that critical hits are unique to attack rolls. 

Danny

NO.

They should not.

Casters can already out-damage non-casters and even if their damage is (appropriately) significantly reduced (back to the point where damage output between a Wizard and a Fighter is about where it was in AD&D would be good) I still don't like it.

Magic is already all about "spike damage" through daily spells, it doesn't need more of a damage spike. 






I want to double that thumbs upp..  because its being ignored... 


  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

There are a number of spells that are not designed to do damage. Yet they should have an attack roll and be able to crit?

This is a good point.  I still think "all" spells should be roll to hit, but if they don't do damage, then obviously, yeah, they don't need to be able to crit.

IOW, look at the way 4e did spells.  Not all of them did damage, of course.  But the vast majority required an attack roll, and you could crit if they did do damage.  I think that worked great, because I don't really like the old school way that saving throws used to work.

(Then again, saving throws to end effects got kind of annoying in 4e too, but that was more due to the amount of stuff you had to track, and that's another topic.)

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

4e saving throws where a durration mechanic. Instead of 1d4 rounds, you simply made a DC10 save with no bonuses untill you saved.

And yea, it was wonky and swingy.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.