Manual Land Adjustment - Help!

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Okay first for those of you who don't know Wizards_Sean has just confirmed that we'll be able to adjust the land count in our decks in his new video. If you didn't go watch it - he worked hard on that (probably). Now not wanting to get that thread all clogged up with questions about this I figured I'd start a new one to say;

Land - How Much Is Too Much!

I play Magic pretty much exclusively through Duels (as I'm sure many others here do) so I have no idea what it is I'd even be looking at to determine a decks land count so I'll open the floor to anyone with experience in this matter. How much is too much? How about too little? What needs to be taken into account to determine this? What about dual-colour decks?

If anyone with any experience (or even just strong opinions) on this matter reads this feel free to chime in and help a n00b out. Just please try and keep it civil okay? I'm trying to learn something here! So with that lets get a discussion going eh?

Welcome! I'm Garren and I'll be your designated villain for the evening.

I, Garren, will knock you all down!

I want to know too coz i played IRL Magic 10 years ago so i don't remember anymore

Oh hypocrisy! A World full of n00bs indeed!

20-26 depending on what the cards cost last years goblins i woulda had 19 in it
20-26 depending on what the cards cost last years goblins i woulda had 19 in it




Owen, didn't you have 19 mana when you played GG last night?


LoL

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain

Mastergear_Owen's take on Magic 2014 Campaign.

Show
You know what I've got more issues. Whats up with the story in this game? The adverts said I was going to team up with Chandra and we were going to kick butt and chew bubblegum across the planes on a revenge campaign against some... guy she knew I guess? Who's Ramaz anyway? What do I get instead? I beat Chandra like 2 minutes in with a mono-green stompy thing Garruk gave me (why does he keep giving all these new planeswalkers his deck) and then I spent like 5 hours jumping from plane to plane picking up random nicknacks for her mantlepiece while she sits back back doing her nails or something. I was thrown in jail! I got hit by a Roil Storm twice! Do you know how many rats are on Ravnica, Chandra? All of them! All of the rats! All of the rats eating me!

Then we go kick her Ex's bearded-screaming-butt and what does she do to help? Nothing! She throws of the occasional fire ball and spends her time trying not to freeze to death. You should have worn pants Chandra. While we're on the subject what happened to your shoes? You had like Steelies on. Steelies are cool. Now your running around with stupid boots with like 5-inch heels? Thats not appropriate footware for Planeswalking! That's not appropriate footware for normal walking! At least Liliana is doing it for the whole 'evil is sexy' thing and can summon undead to carry her when she breaks her ankle. What are you going to do ride a Phoenix? Its made of fire! You'll fall right through! Man I should have gone Planeswalking with Liliana - yeah she'd crack my head open with a rock 5 minutes in and raise my corpse to serve her but at least we could have gone dancing!

Now with more original content and open bar!

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedevilwuster

20-26 depending on what the cards cost last years goblins i woulda had 19 in it



I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess thats because the curve topped out at about CMC 5-6, the bulk of the deck was CMC 2-3, and it was fast enough to finish most games by turn 5 or so?

Welcome! I'm Garren and I'll be your designated villain for the evening.

I, Garren, will knock you all down!

Owen, didn't you have 19 mana when you played GG last night?


LoL



Yes thank you Devil. I had almost erased that bit of embarrassment out of my mind.

Welcome! I'm Garren and I'll be your designated villain for the evening.

I, Garren, will knock you all down!

Mastergear, aggressive decks with low cost spells tend to have 22-23 lands. You'd want 20 or less lands if your playing almost exclusively 0-2 drop spells with like 8 spells that cost 3 or more for example illusions.

At the other end of the spectrum are decks that require lots of mana so around 25-26 lands would be ideal.

Questions?
yea most of the time u dont even see those cards that cost 5 or need to play them (goblin seige commander)

1drops- 10
2drops-9
3drops-8
4drop-7
5drop-3
6drop-0
Wow, first thing I've heard of them doing right all year. Why didn't they tell us sooner?

Wizards: If it isn't game design, we can't do it right. Frankly, we're kind of shaky on the game design sometimes too.

Mastergear, aggressive decks with low cost spells tend to have 22-23 lands. You'd want 20 or less lands if your playing almost exclusively 0-2 drop spells with like 8 spells that cost 3 or more for example illusions. At the other end of the spectrum are decks that require lots of mana so around 25-26 lands would be ideal. Questions?



Yeah are there any hard and fast rules towards multiple colour decks (other than don't run 10 Swamps if you only have one Black card) or is that just something you get a feel for with play-testing?

Welcome! I'm Garren and I'll be your designated villain for the evening.

I, Garren, will knock you all down!

No, just use some simple math. Add your spells, count up the mana symbols of the spells you have, and use the same ratio to organize your lands.
Mastergear, aggressive decks with low cost spells tend to have 22-23 lands. You'd want 20 or less lands if your playing almost exclusively 0-2 drop spells with like 8 spells that cost 3 or more for example illusions. At the other end of the spectrum are decks that require lots of mana so around 25-26 lands would be ideal. Questions?



Yeah are there any hard and fast rules towards multiple colour decks (other than don't run 10 Swamps if you only have one Black card) or is that just something you get a feel for with play-testing?



This website helped me a lot when trying to figure out mana ratios.  Check it out man!

To find a helpful Magic the Gathering DotP community that cares, go to: http://www.nogoblinsallowed.com/viewforum.php?f=38

Join my Tournament Notification Group for announcements involving upcoming tournaments!

Steam Profile Name: Nebula

This website helped me a lot when trying to figure out mana ratios.  Check it out man!


Hah, you ninja'd me. Was just about to link that article. It's a really good read, definitely recommend it.
Hi! I run a YouTube channel at YouTube.com/user/NemosChannel. I upload Duels of the Planeswalkers gameplay, deckbuilds, and even Tier List videos. It's the best place for strategy and silly humor. Drop by and see!
This website helped me a lot when trying to figure out mana ratios.  Check it out man!


Hah, you ninja'd me. Was just about to link that article. It's a good really read, definitely recommend it.


*uses an egg smoke bomb, climbs up a wall and gets away*

To find a helpful Magic the Gathering DotP community that cares, go to: http://www.nogoblinsallowed.com/viewforum.php?f=38

Join my Tournament Notification Group for announcements involving upcoming tournaments!

Steam Profile Name: Nebula

Mastergear, aggressive decks with low cost spells tend to have 22-23 lands. You'd want 20 or less lands if your playing almost exclusively 0-2 drop spells with like 8 spells that cost 3 or more for example illusions. At the other end of the spectrum are decks that require lots of mana so around 25-26 lands would be ideal. Questions?



Yeah are there any hard and fast rules towards multiple colour decks (other than don't run 10 Swamps if you only have one Black card) or is that just something you get a feel for with play-testing?



This website helped me a lot when trying to figure out mana ratios.  Check it out man!




Thanks dude.
IRL I run usually 24 land in my decks. It's a great compromise number but might be too much for some of the decks in this game.

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain

Mastergear_Owen's take on Magic 2014 Campaign.

Show
You know what I've got more issues. Whats up with the story in this game? The adverts said I was going to team up with Chandra and we were going to kick butt and chew bubblegum across the planes on a revenge campaign against some... guy she knew I guess? Who's Ramaz anyway? What do I get instead? I beat Chandra like 2 minutes in with a mono-green stompy thing Garruk gave me (why does he keep giving all these new planeswalkers his deck) and then I spent like 5 hours jumping from plane to plane picking up random nicknacks for her mantlepiece while she sits back back doing her nails or something. I was thrown in jail! I got hit by a Roil Storm twice! Do you know how many rats are on Ravnica, Chandra? All of them! All of the rats! All of the rats eating me!

Then we go kick her Ex's bearded-screaming-butt and what does she do to help? Nothing! She throws of the occasional fire ball and spends her time trying not to freeze to death. You should have worn pants Chandra. While we're on the subject what happened to your shoes? You had like Steelies on. Steelies are cool. Now your running around with stupid boots with like 5-inch heels? Thats not appropriate footware for Planeswalking! That's not appropriate footware for normal walking! At least Liliana is doing it for the whole 'evil is sexy' thing and can summon undead to carry her when she breaks her ankle. What are you going to do ride a Phoenix? Its made of fire! You'll fall right through! Man I should have gone Planeswalking with Liliana - yeah she'd crack my head open with a rock 5 minutes in and raise my corpse to serve her but at least we could have gone dancing!

Now with more original content and open bar!

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedevilwuster

This website helped me a lot when trying to figure out mana ratios.  Check it out man!



That was a interesting read. Quite informative. Thanks for the link Drifter.

Welcome! I'm Garren and I'll be your designated villain for the evening.

I, Garren, will knock you all down!

So it only now occured to me but sinse we can now adjust both our land count and, more importantly, our land colours we won't need to run 4 copies of Terramorphic Expanse/Evolving Wilds anymore! I can use them as land fixes rather then slow additional lands! Yay!

Welcome! I'm Garren and I'll be your designated villain for the evening.

I, Garren, will knock you all down!

Indeed!  Wilds/Expanses can now be used as lands and not additional cards, lol.

To find a helpful Magic the Gathering DotP community that cares, go to: http://www.nogoblinsallowed.com/viewforum.php?f=38

Join my Tournament Notification Group for announcements involving upcoming tournaments!

Steam Profile Name: Nebula

So it only now occured to me but sinse we can now adjust both our land count and, more importantly, our land colours we won't need to run 4 copies of Terramorphic Expanse/Evolving Wilds anymore! I can use them as land fixes rather then slow additional lands! Yay!



The best thing is that you CAN run all 4 and have the fix without the screw so much.

I'll still only run 3 more than likely.

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain

Mastergear_Owen's take on Magic 2014 Campaign.

Show
You know what I've got more issues. Whats up with the story in this game? The adverts said I was going to team up with Chandra and we were going to kick butt and chew bubblegum across the planes on a revenge campaign against some... guy she knew I guess? Who's Ramaz anyway? What do I get instead? I beat Chandra like 2 minutes in with a mono-green stompy thing Garruk gave me (why does he keep giving all these new planeswalkers his deck) and then I spent like 5 hours jumping from plane to plane picking up random nicknacks for her mantlepiece while she sits back back doing her nails or something. I was thrown in jail! I got hit by a Roil Storm twice! Do you know how many rats are on Ravnica, Chandra? All of them! All of the rats! All of the rats eating me!

Then we go kick her Ex's bearded-screaming-butt and what does she do to help? Nothing! She throws of the occasional fire ball and spends her time trying not to freeze to death. You should have worn pants Chandra. While we're on the subject what happened to your shoes? You had like Steelies on. Steelies are cool. Now your running around with stupid boots with like 5-inch heels? Thats not appropriate footware for Planeswalking! That's not appropriate footware for normal walking! At least Liliana is doing it for the whole 'evil is sexy' thing and can summon undead to carry her when she breaks her ankle. What are you going to do ride a Phoenix? Its made of fire! You'll fall right through! Man I should have gone Planeswalking with Liliana - yeah she'd crack my head open with a rock 5 minutes in and raise my corpse to serve her but at least we could have gone dancing!

Now with more original content and open bar!

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedevilwuster

So just a follow up question but in decks like 'Enter the Dracomancer' or 'Sliver Hive' where you have ramp all over the place can you afford to run a few fewer lands than the CMC curve suggests? You know like just one or two lands sinse you (should) have an easier time fetching them when needed?

Edit: That should be one or two fewer lands, not one or two lands period. Even I know that would be madness.

Welcome! I'm Garren and I'll be your designated villain for the evening.

I, Garren, will knock you all down!

For the most part, as the article said...it does get harder to determine the more colors you add to a deck.  I'm still not 100% sure on my land ratios for the tri color decks. 

To find a helpful Magic the Gathering DotP community that cares, go to: http://www.nogoblinsallowed.com/viewforum.php?f=38

Join my Tournament Notification Group for announcements involving upcoming tournaments!

Steam Profile Name: Nebula

My advice would be to start at 40% land (24 land in a 60 card deck) and play test from there, add and remove as necessary.

"People are like sausages: it's what's under the skin that's important... so poke them with a fork periodically."

"Lif is too short."

My Swans of Bryn Argoll & Seismic Assault combo deck would like to disagree with all the rules.
Very good Shidoshi

This is my general rule for mono coloured decks assuming a solid curve

Tops out at 2 mana = 18/19 land
Tops out at 3 mana = 20/21 land
Tops out at 4 mana = 22/23 land
Tops out at 5 mana = 23/24 land
Tops out at 6 mana = 24/25 land

Obviously each deck will have its own reasons for adjusting this. Look at CMD that can top at 12. I would still run 25 land in that deck due to all the ramp.
I think that looks like a very good starting point too monk.

To find a helpful Magic the Gathering DotP community that cares, go to: http://www.nogoblinsallowed.com/viewforum.php?f=38

Join my Tournament Notification Group for announcements involving upcoming tournaments!

Steam Profile Name: Nebula

Land - How Much Is Too Much!



I have read some articles that mention that one of the biggest magic players make is not put enough lands in their decks. So the question should be; how many lands is too few?
It's not so much the amount of land IMO, it's more about when you need to have X mana.  I prefer to think in terms of average land counts instead.

Here's an article which I think explains my view point perfectly:

www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Blogs/ViewBlog/10...

Obviously, you may end up in the same place, but I prefer his line of reasoning, and I've used it in order to determine amounts of land, ramp, card draw, etc... and IMO it works quite well.  Now that we have access to land counts, deck building can become much more complex.  I'm really excited.

Example: how much ramp do I need in order to guarantee that I'll see one by turn X?  If I have card draw mechanics, then how many? etc... 
The link is broken

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain

Mastergear_Owen's take on Magic 2014 Campaign.

Show
You know what I've got more issues. Whats up with the story in this game? The adverts said I was going to team up with Chandra and we were going to kick butt and chew bubblegum across the planes on a revenge campaign against some... guy she knew I guess? Who's Ramaz anyway? What do I get instead? I beat Chandra like 2 minutes in with a mono-green stompy thing Garruk gave me (why does he keep giving all these new planeswalkers his deck) and then I spent like 5 hours jumping from plane to plane picking up random nicknacks for her mantlepiece while she sits back back doing her nails or something. I was thrown in jail! I got hit by a Roil Storm twice! Do you know how many rats are on Ravnica, Chandra? All of them! All of the rats! All of the rats eating me!

Then we go kick her Ex's bearded-screaming-butt and what does she do to help? Nothing! She throws of the occasional fire ball and spends her time trying not to freeze to death. You should have worn pants Chandra. While we're on the subject what happened to your shoes? You had like Steelies on. Steelies are cool. Now your running around with stupid boots with like 5-inch heels? Thats not appropriate footware for Planeswalking! That's not appropriate footware for normal walking! At least Liliana is doing it for the whole 'evil is sexy' thing and can summon undead to carry her when she breaks her ankle. What are you going to do ride a Phoenix? Its made of fire! You'll fall right through! Man I should have gone Planeswalking with Liliana - yeah she'd crack my head open with a rock 5 minutes in and raise my corpse to serve her but at least we could have gone dancing!

Now with more original content and open bar!

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedevilwuster

www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Blogs/ViewBlog/10...

sorry, don't know what happened 
www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Blogs/ViewBlog/10...

sorry, don't know what happened 


Another good read.  Thanks for the post dj.

To find a helpful Magic the Gathering DotP community that cares, go to: http://www.nogoblinsallowed.com/viewforum.php?f=38

Join my Tournament Notification Group for announcements involving upcoming tournaments!

Steam Profile Name: Nebula

www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Blogs/ViewBlog/10...

sorry, don't know what happened 


That guy talks about averages, but seems to either not know or completely ignore what it actually means (pun not intended).

Having on average 4.62 lands on turn 5 does not mean that 62% of the time you have 5 lands and 38% of the time you have 4 lands. You could have from 0 to 11 lands on his 5th turn. But on average you'll have 4.62.
You can't even begin to say how many lands you're likely to have on your Nth turn because of how Mulliganing works. It skews your average land count vs turn upwards because you wouldn't take a hand with no land, for example. But even ignoring that, you still have to take into account the standard deviation of the distribution (and assume it's a normal distribution, but that's not too bad) before you start spewing out probabilities.
Where/how was this confirmed? If it's true than I'm pretty pumped because crsfting a deck is the fun part of this game; watching your creation succeed is just the icing on the cake.
In the new video Sean says we can adjust all deck's lands

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain

Mastergear_Owen's take on Magic 2014 Campaign.

Show
You know what I've got more issues. Whats up with the story in this game? The adverts said I was going to team up with Chandra and we were going to kick butt and chew bubblegum across the planes on a revenge campaign against some... guy she knew I guess? Who's Ramaz anyway? What do I get instead? I beat Chandra like 2 minutes in with a mono-green stompy thing Garruk gave me (why does he keep giving all these new planeswalkers his deck) and then I spent like 5 hours jumping from plane to plane picking up random nicknacks for her mantlepiece while she sits back back doing her nails or something. I was thrown in jail! I got hit by a Roil Storm twice! Do you know how many rats are on Ravnica, Chandra? All of them! All of the rats! All of the rats eating me!

Then we go kick her Ex's bearded-screaming-butt and what does she do to help? Nothing! She throws of the occasional fire ball and spends her time trying not to freeze to death. You should have worn pants Chandra. While we're on the subject what happened to your shoes? You had like Steelies on. Steelies are cool. Now your running around with stupid boots with like 5-inch heels? Thats not appropriate footware for Planeswalking! That's not appropriate footware for normal walking! At least Liliana is doing it for the whole 'evil is sexy' thing and can summon undead to carry her when she breaks her ankle. What are you going to do ride a Phoenix? Its made of fire! You'll fall right through! Man I should have gone Planeswalking with Liliana - yeah she'd crack my head open with a rock 5 minutes in and raise my corpse to serve her but at least we could have gone dancing!

Now with more original content and open bar!

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedevilwuster

My Swans of Bryn Argoll & Seismic Assault combo deck would like to disagree with all the rules.



My seismic swans deck runs 30 lands IIRC

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

Well, if its going to help anyone I like to look at deck building like this. 24 lands/ 36 spells...that's 40% of your deck. So on an average of 100 games your likely to have 3/7 cards in your hand be lands which is again 40%. Drawing the next 7 cards...most likely 40% of that will be lands.

Then I divide up 36 spells and say well I want my deck to focus on 4 to 9 distinct effects...just so it's consistent. Lastly for any theme deck like ramp, mill, life gain, infect, burn, aggro, control, etc I tend to have ~16 cards that represent that.

Now starting from that point if the deck calls for it or not you adjust your land count by +/- 2 and if you have cards that act as mana like Mox Opal...you just drop 4 lands. Like my mill deck runs 16 mill spells, 16 control spells, and the rest being 4+ are for combos. Now I'd adjust land if I find the extra effect of a card isn't too worth it and I can use more/less land. That's how I see it... Criticism?

Edit. And avg. mana costit st it's like 2.3 or below run 22 or less lands, 2.3-2.7 run 24 lands, and 2.7 or above run 25 or more lands. That's just something consistent I've seen from looking at top 8 pro tour decks.
The only exception, I think, will be the multi-colored decks. Traditional decks have access to fancy dual-lands to keep a stable manabase while running an optimal land count. Depending on your deck and card choices, you may need to run more land than you would just for color-consistency.

A 24-land three-color deck with all shocks/duals has access to 16 sources of each color. DotP tri-color decks can't come close to that kind of color-consistency.
Wow, first thing I've heard of them doing right all year. Why didn't they tell us sooner?




I remember you being at least TWICE as optimistic, GodOfAtheism.


Sean Gibbons

Associate Community Manager

Official MTG Twitter: @Wizards_Magic Official MTGO Twitter: @MagicOnline

I'm not sure if I am just having a bad day or if I'm just completely ignorant...where is this (Sean's) video you speak of?
I'm not sure if I am just having a bad day or if I'm just completely ignorant...where is this (Sean's) video you speak of?


www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEQVZf8qxYo
Hi! I run a YouTube channel at YouTube.com/user/NemosChannel. I upload Duels of the Planeswalkers gameplay, deckbuilds, and even Tier List videos. It's the best place for strategy and silly humor. Drop by and see!
Wow, first thing I've heard of them doing right all year. Why didn't they tell us sooner?




I remember you being at least TWICE as optimistic, GodOfAtheism.





Yeah, I admit, I was pretty optimistic until the last two deck lists were released and I finally saw that there was going to be all of one "control" deck, which can only be classified that way because it's not "blatantly aggro" like the other nine, and seeks to accomplish slightly more with spells than it does with creatures. I've been a big meaniehead since that point.

As more nuanced and patient posters than myself have pointed out, 2012 was an aggro year and of course most of the decks were aggro, much like this year. 2013 was apparently a control year, even though there was about a 50/50 split in aggro and control decks. Not that I'm saying this is wrong - control mirrors over and over again aren't very interesting without some aggro to spice things up either. My question is why can't we just do a 40/60 or 50/50 balance every year? There's so many things to showcase.

Creatureless decks. Decks with creatures that don't attack. Alternate win conditions. Combos (by which I mean like the four-pierce "Station" combo, not "kills you on average no later than turn two Flash Hulk" combos.) Hondens would be cool. Madness. Threshold. Oversold Cemetary. All of these are more interesting and stimulating than who can turn bigger dudes sideways faster.

I hope more thought went into the promos, deck packs, and expansions, because it's going to be rough from here on out. With as little Artefact/Enchantment removal as are in these decks (pre-promo anyhow), all future content this year that includes either has to do so very carefully or risk being busted. That, or make certain that all the future decks have somesuch decent non-creature removal to the mean or best of their colours' abilities, but then this disadvantages the initial ten decks.

This just doesn't seem like good design to me from any angle. They're shorting the showcasing of the game's versatility. They're shorting their own capabilities as deckbuilders. They're shorting the way Sealed is being done - both for themselves and us, with the information we have at this point. They're shorting their marketing capabilities (or being very shrewd in relying almost entirely on word-of-mouth/Steam adverts do their work for them) by not generating more hype.

I'm with Splattercat; I'd really like to see something from the devs detailing what their thought process was while they did this. A blog. An IRC chat. A Facebook page. A podcast interview. The medium is ultimately irrelevant because any way it were done it would eventually end up pasted or linked back here.

I've seen precisely three things that look like they've acknowledged their customer base/requests at all; the all attack/random deck button, and the manual land editing. Surely it wouldn't kill them to let us into their brains for a short time and explain what happened this year. Did anyone request almost-all-aggro? Did I miss a vote somewhere? Was there some flood of nerds at E3 or another event that kept going up to the Wizards booth and went "You know that Duels series? Love it, guys, love it. I just wish there was more turning guys sideways. There really needs to be more of that."

[/rant] 

Wizards: If it isn't game design, we can't do it right. Frankly, we're kind of shaky on the game design sometimes too.

Thank you Nemo...looking forward to DotP '14! Smile