Barbarian Deadly Strike overpowered?

Hi all,

In the last season of Encounters, one of the other DM's had a barbarian in his group that seemed to be quite overpowered. He was basically able to one-shot the green dragon and the wizard both in the final week's encounter. Deadly Strike was the issue, as it enabled the barbarian to double his damage dice every time he went in the combat. The current edition of the playtest rules says a barbarian can use this "once per turn". I'm wondering, is that once per set of actions in a combat, where a "turn" is when the player comes up in the initiative order? Or, is a "turn" the "5 minute turn" that a combat would be contained within. The first allows a barbarian with a greatsword to roll 2d12+bonuses every time he makes an attack. The second works more like an encounter power from 4e, because he can only do it once in each 5 minute "turn".

To be fair, the player involved is a known min-maxer, but then again, this is a playtest where we're supposed to push the rules as much as possible. Just looking for some insight from fellow players/DM's out there, so thanks in advance
its once per turn as in every player and npc coming up in initiative. example on the barbarians turn he can attack and use deadly strike for the 2d12+mods. then in the orcs turn it tries to run provoking an Opportunity attack, the barbarian my use his deadly strike feature on this attack too because its another turn other then the one he all ready used deadly strike in. 

how many HP did that dragon have? was a really weak dragon if he one shot it. he should have 2d12 +str mod+ rage  any other modes are from feats or magic items. right now deadly strike is not that strong. id say the dragon and wizard where stated wrong if anything or where not meant to be much or a challenge to the PCs.
Turn: A single set of actions performed by a single character, be they a player or an NPC
Round: 6-second time increment where each involved character takes a turn
Encounter: Event such as a fight or conversation. Can take any amount of time. Sometimes will be broken up into rounds.

They were using the rules correctly. My group killed those guys quickly too- the dragon really could have used more hit points.

Even better is a barbarian with the "weapon mastery" feat, who can roll 3d12 and drop the lowest.
The "deadly strike" feature is designed to offset the power of casting classes gaining more and better spells.
The Fighter also gets "deadly strike" but since they don't have rage power it isn't as noticeable.
"Ha! Rock beats scissors!" "Darn it! Rock is overpowered! I'm not playing this again until the next edition is released!" "C'mon, just one more." "Oh, all right..." "Wait, what is that?" "Its 'Dynamite' from the expanded rules." "Just because you can afford to buy every supplement that comes out..." "Hey, it's completely balanced! You're just a bad DM for not accommodating it."
Show
RPGs are getting more popular, and whenever something gets more popular, it inevitably changes, usually becoming more palatable to the masses. Nintendo is the perfect example. In the old days their games coined the term "Nintendo hard" to extend play time, but they knew their fans were dedicated enough to play anyway. Now they mostly make stuff a five year old can master. That's not necessarily bad, though. Most of those old Nintendo games were infuriating. Likewise, a lot of old RPGs were too complex and irritating for the average person to really get into. Rules light systems are going to get more popular as more people enter the hobby, simply because the new people aren't bound by nostalgia, and would rather play something easy and fun than something that takes a huge amount of effort to learn.
@crimsonsky5154: The dragon started the combat at half hit points, as the party had faced it two weeks prior, but only minutes prior in game. I'm not sure what mods the barbarian character had, as he wasn't at my table. If you've been through the most recent Encounters season, it was the Week 8 fight.

@Jordan175: Thank you. Like I said, it was just one of those things. I've learned over the years that sometimes you have to be very careful with how things are worded, and I've seen the word "turn" as regards actions used in two different ways in the most recent play-test document.

Thanks to both of you for taking time to answer.
no prob any time Laughing
Yes, the term "Turn" has definately become a problem. I think the designers writing the rules need to be more specific about the phrasing "once per turn". I think, given the definition of "term" as "when each participant acts", the rules should always state "once per your turn" instead. I think it is abusive to the design goal to allow these actions on every individual's turn within a round, since the stated goals were to speed up combat and limit action economy.

EDIT: At the very least make the use of these types of actions, outside your turn, as a Reaction; then there can only be one extra use of the action per round. 
If an ability is intended to be used on each turn of a round, it is once per turn.

If an ability is intended to be used on each of your turn in a round, it is once on each of your turn.

I think the distinction is clear enought between the two frequency.
Deadly Strike can be used on the character's turn, then once more to make an AoO, otherwise the Barbarian's inability to make AoOs while enraged wwouldn't be much of a drawback and the fighter wouldn't be able to do enough with aOOs to protect the squishies.

"Trying to run gritty gothic horror with 4e is like trying to cut down a tree with a hammer, likewise trying to run heroic fantasy with 1e is like trying to hammer a nail with a chainsaw."

 
 

 This is what i get when i hit the Quote button:  http://community.wizards.com/%23

 

  



The way I understand it... Opportunity Attacks are reactions. Reactions aren't made in your turn, they aren't "a turn". Your turn is when you act, a reaction is just something else you can quickly do in someone else's turn, in response to his action, interrupting his turn. "Pausing" his turn for a moment while you make a single, simple attack.

So no Deadly Strike with Attacks of Opportunity.


The wording doesn't make it clear, but I think that the fact Deadly Strikes exists to replace the old "multiple attacks" makes sense that it is not used in AoO. When you got an AoO in the past you didn't get your full number of attacks per round, you got only one. So it's reasonable to conclude, I suppose, that you're not meant to add the full number of dice from DS in an AoO. 



The way I understand it... Opportunity Attacks are reactions. Reactions aren't made in your turn, they aren't "a turn". Your turn is when you act, a reaction is just something else you can quickly do in someone else's turn, in response to his action, interrupting his turn. "Pausing" his turn for a moment while you make a single, simple attack.

So no Deadly Strike with Attacks of Opportunity.


The wording doesn't make it clear, but I think that the fact Deadly Strikes exists to replace the old "multiple attacks" makes sense that it is not used in AoO. When you got an AoO in the past you didn't get your full number of attacks per round, you got only one. So it's reasonable to conclude, I suppose, that you're not meant to add the full number of dice from DS in an AoO. 




I disagree. Opportunity attacks happen on someone's turn, everything in combat is contained within a turn. You can use deadly strike on an opportunity attack, but if you somehow make two opportunity attacks on the same turn, only one can benefit from deadly strike.

2d12+ bonuses is correct.

Bonuses should be 2-3 normally, or 6-10 if he's raging. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The wording doesn't make it clear, but I think that the fact Deadly Strikes exists to replace the old "multiple attacks" makes sense that it is not used in AoO. When you got an AoO in the past you didn't get your full number of attacks per round, you got only one. So it's reasonable to conclude, I suppose, that you're not meant to add the full number of dice from DS in an AoO. 

Although I believe that the wording goes against this interpretation, it still seems like the explanation that makes the most sense in terms of gameplay.

The metagame is not the game.

In any case, a raging barbarian can't make opportunity attacks, since these are reactions. Am I wrong?
The fighter is the one making deadly strike in his reactions, which helps keeping up to the raging barbarian.


I'd be happy if, while raging, the barbarian gave advantage on attack rolls against him. Highest HitDice, Good AC and Resistance to piercing, slashing and bludgeoning... make the barbarian incredible resilient. I like that he can take a hit, I also like the constitution to AC while not wearing armor rule. Resistance is awesome. Yet, it's all of that make him too strong. I'd like to see his enemies gaining advantage against him, it would make sense and balance quite well all the other stuff.

by raw you can deadly strike on an OA but it does go against the intent that a turn is what you do in the 6 second time frame represented by the round all at the same time as every other creature in the encounter. i wish deadly strike was multiple attacks with 1 attack roll so it could be used to do multiple maneuvers or attack more then one creature. like a burst power in 4e, but the targets where limited by the extra [W] dice used for deadly strike.

the fighter in me yells keep it once per turn i need that deadly OA. where as the sensible part that knows all turns in a round happen at the same time really wants it to be once per round. 
You can use Deadly Strike twice per round...  The first time is on your active turn...  The second time is on your reaction which happens on the opponent's turn...  Unless something drastic has happened to the game design, the developers did state that their intention is to leave OA's as a reaction, and each character will only have a single reaction per round. 
You can use Deadly Strike any number of times per round in fact. The only limit is 1/turn.

You currently can possibly use it at least three times in a round with Combat Reflexes.
You can use Deadly Strike any number of times per round in fact. The only limit is 1/turn.

You currently can possibly use it at least three times in a round with Combat Reflexes.


Plaguescarred, I don't know you personally, but you have a lot of badges under your name.
Is your reply the definitive, certified, for sure proper interpretation?
Yes its definitive, by logical deduction. If you cannot find a frequency limitation on a per round basis in Deadly Strike, then it means it has none. Since during a round each participant takes a turn, once per turn means that Deadly Strike can hypothetically be used once per creature's turns in a combat, as many they are.

Now the real restriction is to be able to attack to use it, and apart from your action and your reaction, its currently unlikely to make multiple attacks in a round other than by making 2 opportunity attacks with Combat Reflexes in a given round to actually use Deadly Strike more frequently. But if there was to be a spell or feature enabling other creatures to attack without using a reaction for exemple, then every turn a character with Deadly Strike would attack, it could potentially use it.

Plaguescarred, I don't know you personally, but you have a lot of badges under your name.

Don't  worry for these we don't need no badges  ;)    (Thanks to my buddy billnewsome for showing this to me after talking about badges!)
You can use Deadly Strike any number of times per round in fact. The only limit is 1/turn.

You currently can possibly use it at least three times in a round with Combat Reflexes.


Plaguescarred, I don't know you personally, but you have a lot of badges under your name.
Is your reply the definitive, certified, for sure proper interpretation?

Plague is correct.

He's not offical, but he does hold respect from both the community and the devs for giving accurate answers to pretty much any rule questions.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I find it interesting that the Haste spell would not grant any extra uses of Deadly Strike but a Potion of Speed will double your potential for attacks using Deadly Strike.

Haste spell grants an extra action on your turn.


Potion of Speed grants a character an extra turn and all that implies.


The Haste spell favors casters since it allows a scaling Cantrip but not an extra scaling attack.  I think I'd prefer that the spell grant an extra turn like the potion.
I find it interesting that the Haste spell would not grant any extra uses of Deadly Strike but a Potion of Speed will double your potential for attacks using Deadly Strike.

Haste spell grants an extra action on your turn.


Potion of Speed grants a character an extra turn and all that implies.


The Haste spell favors casters since it allows a scaling Cantrip but not an extra scaling attack.  I think I'd prefer that the spell grant an extra turn like the potion.

Those are good points.  Though potion of speed is "very rare", as well as being a consumable.  So it might be intentional that it's stronger then haste.


Also, that puts the total number of deadly strikes at 6 times per round.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I don't think deadly strike is overpowered on a Barbiarian, it isn't a feature exclusive to it and it is static in the sense that the damage is exactly as said on the tin. You can use it to make a powerful attack stronger, but it's weaker then a full round action of earlier editions because you don't get the strength buffs to damage either.

The bigger question is whether Deadly Strike itself is overpowered in comparsion to the game it exists in and to determine that, it might be worth pitting classes that use the machanic against the said creatures and determining whether Deadly Strike is generally slaughtering monsters or not. Can a monk or fighter deal with a green dragon in the same way or better?

If so, then a question has to be asked of why it is overpowered. Is HP so low that an average Deadly strike can nearly lay a dragon low? To me, low hp + more damage means that very few monsters can stand up to a fighting class for very long in order to compensate for not using magic. Yet we still consider the Fighter and Monk inferior to Wizards and Clerics in general.
He's not offical, but he does hold respect from both the community and the devs for giving accurate answers to pretty much any rule questions.

Thanks!  I appreciated the confirmation 

Potion of Speed grants a character an extra turn and all that implies.

Indeed i forgot about it, it means Deadly Strike could potentially be used 5 time in a round!

Also, that puts the total number of deadly strikes at 6 times per round.

6? What is the sixth use from? It look like Combat Reflexes is only an extra reaction each round but i may have missed something else.

Turn 1   [Base]
Reaction 1   [Base]
Turn 2   [Potion of Speed]
Reaction 2   [Potion of Speed]
Reaction 3  [Combat Reflexes]
Here is a simple guide to whether or not something is overpowered in 3.5 or Next:

a.) Does it belong to a spellcasting class?
If your answer is yes, then the answer is maybe.
If your answer is no, then the answer is no. 

Seriously. Noncasters give up a lot of versatility it's hard for me to believe that anything they can do is overpowered when casters have spells like wish, meteor shower, and charm person.

Sorry if this doesn't agree with the supper the grognards are serving! 

Stop the H4TE

Here is a simple guide to whether or not something is overpowered in 3.5 or Next:

a.) Does it belong to a spellcasting class?
If your answer is yes, then the answer is maybe.
If your answer is no, then the answer is no. 

Seriously. Noncasters give up a lot of versatility it's hard for me to believe that anything they can do is overpowered when casters have spells like wish, meteor shower, and charm person.

Sorry if this doesn't agree with the supper the grognards are serving! 





From a 4th-hand slappy, hoo-rah type, please...
He was basically able to one-shot the green dragon and the wizard both in the final week's encounter. Deadly Strike was the issue, as it enabled the barbarian to double his damage dice every time he went in the combat.



As a DM of the last season who had One TPK on this fight and one near TPK (2 dwarven survivors) this seems like a fluke.  My parties were fighter heavy with the same layout Fighter w/Deadly Strike, +1 Greatsword, 18 str, and 1d6 deep wound.

24 dice max + 1d12 crit +d6 max + 4  str +1 weapon= for a max of 47 which would have one-shotted the wizard - barely.

Normal damage is low to mid 20s. 

The dragon would not have been one-shotted but would have fled at half (many of the characters could hit half).  

This encounter was 3 glass cannons.  My parties failed to kill one of them before they all unloaded with disastrous results.  The casters were 2 shotable and the dragon 1 - but any number of combos would have put them down quickly.

That fight was easy or a TPK depending on iniative or to hit rolls and saves.

Not sure how a feature  that 4 classes have in equal measure and 2 in lesser degree is breaking the game for the Barbarian.
Here is a simple guide to whether or not something is overpowered in 3.5 or Next:

a.) Does it belong to a spellcasting class?
If your answer is yes, then the answer is maybe.
If your answer is no, then the answer is no. 




In 3.5 if you stick to Core books casters and non-casters are all very close to each other in power. Bards may be a little weaker but they're not really a class made to crush stuff. Rogues might be somewhat overpowered with Sneak but that damage is circumstancial and not always reliable.

Now if you go into the really overpowered (and maybe of questionable design?) stuff from the splat books... then non-casters, mostly warrior types, and above all the Fighter, far surpass any caster in power. If you think otherwise you haven't actually seen what a Fighter can do given those overpowered options. ;)

I never use this kind of optional stuff in my games, just beause it isn't my thing these kind of super-powered ubber-epic games. I use only what's more in tune with the basic game, by Core standards. But I'd say even for those super-powered games, if anything is allowed, the Fighter and Fighter-types can get so out of hand that it could compromise the integrity of even such a game where the intention is for characters to be super powerful. In terms of pure damage, at least, casters just can't compare.


Not sure how Next is so far in that aspect.
Haven't playtested all the classes enough to reach such conclusion.


Personally the "balance" between classes I like best so far is that of 2e AD&D.
-> Warrior-types have average but reliable damage, and are very tough when compared to other classes.
-> Wizard-types have great damage but not always very reliable due to circumstancial use and limitations of casting, and are squishy like hell
-> Rogue-types have lower damage since they aren't classes built for combat (a burst here and there from Backstab is nice). Their focus, however, is on other situations outside combat, and they're awesome in those situations.
-> Cleric-types have OK combat capacity and great spells for utility and such, but their spells don't trample on the wizard's and vice-versa in terms of what they do. That way spellcasting between both types becomes more clearly defined and the classes each gain more characteristic gameplay.
Wow...I stop looking for a couple days, and look what happens to my little thread!! Thanks to everyone for answering, and debating. It's a very interesting read.
Here is a simple guide to whether or not something is overpowered in 3.5 or Next:





The problem 3rd Ed started; is: you suddenly needed stuff...

Here is a simple guide to whether or not something is overpowered in 3.5 or Next:





The problem 3rd Ed started; is: you suddenly needed stuff...




Yes, this applies to so many things.  It concerned a lot of people.




Total, I like a character that deigns magic items. 
 

Total, I like a character that deigns magic items. 



Beowulf fan?  err ok not quite he certainly used them, but Beowulfs stories were primarily demonstrative of the need to be independent of any of ones tools ... 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

@IAmSylar: As a grognard myself, I think I need to remind you that spells like Wish and Meteor Swarm are 9th level spells, and only available once a Wizard reaches a level appropriate to their use. Charm Person is only temporary, and while a good way to stop someone, does not allow the victim to actually harm himself or usually his friends. The ability I brought into question is available to Barbarians at 5th level. In the Next rules, it doesn't take a lot of XP to get to 5th level, making that ability available very early on. Thank you for your opinion though, as I appreciate anyone who took the time to answer.
 

Total, I like a character that deigns magic items. 



Beowulf fan?  err ok not quite he certainly used them, but Beowulfs stories were primarily demonstrative of the need to be independent of any of ones tools ... 




I agree, I do not like characters dependant, at all, on magic items.

Save Elric.
 

Total, I like a character that deigns magic items. 



Beowulf fan?  err ok not quite he certainly used them, but Beowulfs stories were primarily demonstrative of the need to be independent of any of ones tools ... 




I agree, I do not like characters dependant, at all, on magic items.

Save Eiric. 



Assuming this should actually say Elric, we finally agree on something (although I am fond of Kane's habit of showing up with a Carsysutal (I know I mispelled it) sword kind of amusing (its basically a better quality sword than any others).
 
 

Total, I like a character that deigns magic items. 



Beowulf fan?  err ok not quite he certainly used them, but Beowulfs stories were primarily demonstrative of the need to be independent of any of ones tools ... 




I agree, I do not like characters dependant, at all, on magic items.

Save Eiric. 



Assuming this should actually say Elric,




Of course, slip of the finger, amended.

Elric-type is a great solo campaign.
In any case, a raging barbarian can't make opportunity attacks, since these are reactions. Am I wrong?
The fighter is the one making deadly strike in his reactions, which helps keeping up to the raging barbarian.


I'd be happy if, while raging, the barbarian gave advantage on attack rolls against him. Highest HitDice, Good AC and Resistance to piercing, slashing and bludgeoning... make the barbarian incredible resilient. I like that he can take a hit, I also like the constitution to AC while not wearing armor rule. Resistance is awesome. Yet, it's all of that make him too strong. I'd like to see his enemies gaining advantage against him, it would make sense and balance quite well all the other stuff.




I disagree. Disadvantage is not needed. The barbarian cannot perform reactions. This is more than just attacks of opportunity since some feats require reactions for them to work.  The barbarian should not be needlessly penalized for raging. No one is suggesting that fighters take attack roll penalties for parrying with their expertise dice. Why should the barbarian be penalized for using a class feature? 
 

Total, I like a character that deigns magic items. 



Beowulf fan?  err ok not quite he certainly used them, but Beowulfs stories were primarily demonstrative of the need to be independent of any of ones tools ... 




I agree, I do not like characters dependant, at all, on magic items.

Save Eiric. 



Assuming this should actually say Elric,




Of course, slip of the finger, amended.

Elric-type is a great solo campaign.



Oh I think there is room for many styles Elric is solo mostly due to relative power... (Though one interesting interpretation makes Elric and Stormbringer 2 characters with synergistic builds).

You have the Perseus or Atlantean Soldier equipped with a variety of magic items. How awesome he might be is hard to see through all the glow.

You have the fated wielders Arthur and Elric whose awesome may either be reflected mostly in the singular weapons they possess or seems overwhelmed by those items.

You have the Lancelots and Beowulfs and Herakles who trash the second best and monsters of their worlds bare naked and whose awesome clearly outshines any weapon they ever wielded.
 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

A barbarian's true strength should come through as being able to adapt to his circumstances.
Considering Next doesn't assume magic items, I'd say it supports Beowulf-style heroes intrinsically better than most other editions already. And someone with magic weapons, has a bit of an advantage but not an insurmountable one, certainly not against someone who can do disarms and grabs.

Beowulf wasn't D&D though, PCs heroes aren't expected to obey some set of physical laws and be innately superior "just because the author said so". I.e. Beowulf was Waaaaaaay OP, it was silly. It's a legend, he's basically a supernatural killer. D&D Fighters and Barbarians do not have author plot-immunity or special favors, they're expected to die sometimes, and occasionally, without ever achieving something special. If every PC could be Beowulf, then nobody is. 

I find it ludicrous that the same posts go on and on about OP imbalanced classes in various iterations now want melee classes to be so outrageously uber. What's the point of playing if you're going to be so tough you can grab a dragon and fling it around the country-side onehanded. I seem to recall, at least in the movie, Beowulf repeatedly doing many such absurdly comical things.

Do not want to play a joke game.



+1

All classes should be fun and challenging to play. No class, especially the fighter should feel like the game is handed to them.    
 
All classes should be fun and challenging to play. No class, especially the fighter should feel like the game is handed to them.    



Let them CoDzillas roll on. 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

 
All classes should be fun and challenging to play. No class, especially the fighter should feel like the game is handed to them.    



Let them CoDzillas roll on. 



Me CODzilla! Me crush whimpy Martial PC's! Laughing
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