Short Rests need to be shorter again

An hour is simply too much of a hiccup in an adventure, especially since many things are limited (such as a Barbarian being able to Rage) based on taking a Short Rest.

10 minutes was fine, IMO. Why change it?
I agree. 1 hour rest means rest healing and ability refresh becomes impossible under more time constraining scenario. I prefer 10 minutes for that. 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Probably to make it actually matter, instead of being something the group always does and so is of no consequence.

Yes, under a more time constraining scenario, it can't be done - unless the party decides to retreat.

Granted the players making a retreat choice probably gets up the nose of DM's who have a prewritten story which is to end in a prewritten way.

"In the game there is magic" - Orethalion

 

Only got words in my copy.

They might want to consider splitting the short rest into a short and intermediate rest.

Short Rest - 5 minutes - recharges various class abilities (barbarian rage, expertise dice, etc.)
Intermediate Rest - 1 Hour - recovers HP and powerful class abilities (Druid and Wizard spell recovery, for example)
Long Rest - 8 Hours - recovers HP and daily resources
To avoid both the "rest after every encounter" and the (I think) excessive one-hour rest, might it not be easier to say that you can only take one short rest (or rather, only one short rest that will do you any good!) every hour, or every two hours, but keep the short rest at 10 minutes in length? This will still cut down on the number and frequency of rests during any delve/adventure day, but make rests a little easier to take.
I think the OP is in the minority but this is a classic example of 'you can't please all of the people all of the time.'  It is the easiest thing to house-rule though.
To avoid both the "rest after every encounter" and the (I think) excessive one-hour rest, might it not be easier to say that you can only take one short rest (or rather, only one short rest that will do you any good!) every hour, or every two hours, but keep the short rest at 10 minutes in length? This will still cut down on the number and frequency of rests during any delve/adventure day, but make rests a little easier to take.

This does seem like the best compromise to avoid the "rest for an hour after every encounter" phenomenon, which is almost as silly as the "make camp for the night after every encounter" phenomenon.

Short rests take 5-10 minutes, but you can only benefit from one short rest per hour. Long rests take 6-8 hours, but you can only benefit from one long rest per day.

The metagame is not the game.

I like it because I like the idea of the time constraint to put pressure on the PCs.  I think people who might be looking for a grittier more realistic game should have the option of one hour short rests, and people looking for a bit more hacking should be able to take 5-10 minute rests.

Vampire Class/Feat in 2013!

I prefer Next because 4E players and CharOpers can't find their ass without a grid and a power called "Find Ass."

I like the dial on short rest. Tested it yesterday and it brings a new pace to the game. Indeed, the players now ask themselves if they should or not take a short rest, and this is relatively new. As a DM, I don't have to stick combat encounters to each other to keep a fast & furious feeling, and I can now put some little exploration in between fights while still maintaining the thrills of battle.

I wouldn't dismiss this option as quick as you did if I were you

I wouldn't dismiss this option as quick as you did if I were you



The problem with the 1 hour short rest that some apparently do not see is that not being able to reliably short rest screws some classes much more than others, some even to the point of breaking them.

Fighters for example can fill up their (already small) expertise dice pool only by doing a short rest (otherwise, the only can gain a single expertise dice when the have 0 dice).

Barbarians need to take a short rest between each rage.

Not being able to reliably short rest basicially breaks these two classes, considering that expertise dice, respectively raging are pretty much 80% of what it means to be a Fighter or Barbarian.

To me it is quite obvious that they have not thought about the consequences of the 1 hour rest with respect to some class abilities.

Bottom Line:
 
NO signifcant class ability should be tied to taking a 1 hour rest between encounters. Either give us back the 10 minute short rest OR change the way some classes can recover their abilities.

I'll vote dial.  It's an easy way to adjust game pacing.

But on both short and long rest.  I mean, it's easy to imagine a slow, game of thrones style where short rest is a day, and long rest is a month.

Or heck, i could see the negitive plane having 1 day/1 month, the normal world having 1h/1day, and the positive plane having 5minutes/2 hours.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I'll vote dial.  It's an easy way to adjust game pacing.

But on both short and long rest.  I mean, it's easy to imagine a slow, game of thrones style where short rest is a day, and long rest is a month.

Or heck, i could see the negitive plane having 1 day/1 month, the normal world having 1h/1day, and the positive plane having 5minutes/2 hours.



That's more or less the way I see it.

The problem with the 1 hour short rest that some apparently do not see is that not being able to reliably short rest screws some classes much more than others, some even to the point of breaking them.



You are right that there should be some consideration upon the abilities that are strongly tied to short and long rest when dialing them. Maybe one way would be to have every class having at least one strong iconic feature tied to each sort of rest.

But It's essentially a problem of class design, that the dial of short and long rest just made more apparent.
I'll vote dial.  It's an easy way to adjust game pacing.

But on both short and long rest.  I mean, it's easy to imagine a slow, game of thrones style where short rest is a day, and long rest is a month.

Or heck, i could see the negitive plane having 1 day/1 month, the normal world having 1h/1day, and the positive plane having 5minutes/2 hours.



Boom. Brilliant.
I like the dial on short rest. Tested it yesterday and it brings a new pace to the game. Indeed, the players now ask themselves if they should or not take a short rest, and this is relatively new. As a DM, I don't have to stick combat encounters to each other to keep a fast & furious feeling, and I can now put some little exploration in between fights while still maintaining the thrills of battle.

I wouldn't dismiss this option as quick as you did if I were you



This sounds encouraging.  I think that taking even a short rest in dungeon should be something that requires thought and 10 minutes always felt like you could squeeze it and took away the decision making aspect.
When I played this playtest package, I just let the barbarian recharge after an encounter, and I let the fighter reset expertise dice after an encounter too, regardless of rest. Then the 1 hour rest wasn't so bad. Not being able to use the HD of healing until in a very safe area did add a bit of tension to the game.

A Brave Knight of WTF - "Wielder of the Sword of Balance"

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 


I wouldn't dismiss this option as quick as you did if I were you



The problem with the 1 hour short rest that some apparently do not see is that not being able to reliably short rest screws some classes much more than others, some even to the point of breaking them.

Fighters for example can fill up their (already small) expertise dice pool only by doing a short rest (otherwise, the only can gain a single expertise dice when the have 0 dice).

Barbarians need to take a short rest between each rage.

Not being able to reliably short rest basicially breaks these two classes, considering that expertise dice, respectively raging are pretty much 80% of what it means to be a Fighter or Barbarian.

To me it is quite obvious that they have not thought about the consequences of the 1 hour rest with respect to some class abilities.




To me this sounds like an elegant story focused solution to anyone who thinks fighters and barbarians need to be toned down.  Also casters stay on a daily refresh, so welcome to the club martial classes.

Vampire Class/Feat in 2013!

I prefer Next because 4E players and CharOpers can't find their ass without a grid and a power called "Find Ass."


To me this sounds like an elegant story focused solution to anyone who thinks fighters and barbarians need to be toned down.  Also casters stay on a daily refresh, so welcome to the club martial classes.





Maybe I missed something, but are the Fighter Expertise Dice boni even remotely as powerful as spells? 

Saying you are comparing apples to oranges is putting it mildly. Very mildly.

Also, if the 1 hour short rest would have been to nerf Fighters or Barbarians (which it quite obviously is not), they did a very poor job. Because the extent of how much these classes are affected by this changes varies greatly on the type of adventure. 

In a typical wilderness adventure where you have several encounters spread over the entire day, this change means next to nothing. In a tightly packed dungeon crawl / keep assault adventure type the change will mean that these classes will have no access to their defining class abilities for most encounters at all.
   

 


Maybe I missed something, but are the Fighter Expertise Dice boni even remotely as powerful as spells? 



No, no. I would say that you are entirely right. These new rules just showed that there is a oversight in class design. IMHO, Fighters and Barbarians should have their features revamped. I think that this is essentially a class problem, not a rest dial problem. The dial just made the class imbalance spring through.
Maybe I missed something, but are the Fighter Expertise Dice boni even remotely as powerful as spells? 



No, no. I would say that you are entirely right. These new rules just showed that there is a oversight in class design. IMHO, Fighters and Barbarians should have their features revamped. I think that this is essentially a class problem, not a rest dial problem. The dial just made the class imbalance spring through.

That's why the rest times need to be on the same dial.


If you have a 1 hour short rest, and a 1 month long rest, it strongly favors short rest PC's (expertise).
If you have a 12 hour short rest, and a 1 day long rest, it favors long rest PC's (spell casters). 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Maybe I missed something, but are the Fighter Expertise Dice boni even remotely as powerful as spells? 



No, no. I would say that you are entirely right. These new rules just showed that there is a oversight in class design. IMHO, Fighters and Barbarians should have their features revamped. I think that this is essentially a class problem, not a rest dial problem. The dial just made the class imbalance spring through.

That's why the rest times need to be on the same dial.


If you have a 1 hour short rest, and a 1 month long rest, it strongly favors short rest PC's (expertise).
If you have a 12 hour short rest, and a 1 day long rest, it favors long rest PC's (spell casters). 



Agreed. If the design of class stays the same.

The other solution would be to provide every class with short rest and long rest mecanics.
Maybe I missed something, but are the Fighter Expertise Dice boni even remotely as powerful as spells? 



No, no. I would say that you are entirely right. These new rules just showed that there is a oversight in class design. IMHO, Fighters and Barbarians should have their features revamped. I think that this is essentially a class problem, not a rest dial problem. The dial just made the class imbalance spring through.

That's why the rest times need to be on the same dial.


If you have a 1 hour short rest, and a 1 month long rest, it strongly favors short rest PC's (expertise).
If you have a 12 hour short rest, and a 1 day long rest, it favors long rest PC's (spell casters). 



Agreed. If the design of class stays the same.

The other solution would be to provide every class with short rest and long rest mecanics.

I agree classes should have both, but you would still have classes that strongly favored one over the other.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Maybe I missed something, but are the Fighter Expertise Dice boni even remotely as powerful as spells? 



No, no. I would say that you are entirely right. These new rules just showed that there is a oversight in class design. IMHO, Fighters and Barbarians should have their features revamped. I think that this is essentially a class problem, not a rest dial problem. The dial just made the class imbalance spring through.

That's why the rest times need to be on the same dial.


If you have a 1 hour short rest, and a 1 month long rest, it strongly favors short rest PC's (expertise).
If you have a 12 hour short rest, and a 1 day long rest, it favors long rest PC's (spell casters). 



Agreed. If the design of class stays the same.

The other solution would be to provide every class with short rest and long rest mecanics.

I agree classes should have both, but you would still have classes that strongly favored one over the other.



If they don't reach the homogeneity of 4E - which they clearly don't intend to - there will always be classes favored anyway. These two independant dials would then put some control in the hand of the table to choose where they want the balance to bow.


If they don't reach the homogeneity of 4E - which they clearly don't intend to - there will always be classes favored anyway. These two independant dials would then put some control in the hand of the table to choose where they want the balance to bow.




True.

Though I would prefer that the designers would decide which is the default and then at least try to balance the class abilities around it.

The way I understood the 10 min short rest it was: You can basicially always assume to make a short rest after each combat encounter, unless the DM specifially does not want you to (i.e. sending in a patrol or putting a strict time limit like "the King will be dead in a few minutes unless you get to him before"). I thought that the class abilities were balanced around this assumption, i.e. it was expected that a fighter usually starts any combat encounter with full expertise dice.

There is hardly a topic as debated as the 5 min work day. Regardless of your opinion on this, I do not think that introducing an even smaller resting mechanic where you have to balance roleplay / "realism" vs numeric advantage is good ("we just fought for 30 seconds, why do you want to rest for an entire hour now?").

So one of my main gripes with the 1 hour short rest is not the exact length per se, it is more like: Before the change, the short rest due to its very short duration involved no real tradeoff between roleplay / "realism" vs numeric advantage at all. Tending you wounds, wiping of the blood, and gathering your stuff even after only a 30 second fight might surely take about 5-10 minutes anyway.

But 1 hour? Do you build a small campsite in the middle of the enemy lair / undead infested crypt in this time or do you sit in a dark corner and stare at the wall for 1 hour while the monsters go on about their business 3 rooms further on?


   


     





If they don't reach the homogeneity of 4E - which they clearly don't intend to - there will always be classes favored anyway. These two independant dials would then put some control in the hand of the table to choose where they want the balance to bow.




True.

Though I would prefer that the designers would decide which is the default and then at least try to balance the class abilities around it.

The way I understood the 10 min short rest it was: You can basicially always assume to make a short rest after each combat encounter, unless the DM specifially does not want you to (i.e. sending in a patrol or putting a strict time limit like "the King will be dead in a few minutes unless you get to him before"). I thought that the class abilities were balanced around this assumption, i.e. it was expected that a fighter usually starts any combat encounter with full expertise dice.

There is hardly a topic as debated as the 5 min work day. Regardless of your opinion on this, I do not think that introducing an even smaller resting mechanic where you have to balance roleplay / "realism" vs numeric advantage is good ("we just fought for 30 seconds, why do you want to rest for an entire hour now?").

So one of my main gripes with the 1 hour short rest is not the exact length per se, it is more like: Before the change, the short rest due to its very short duration involved no real tradeoff between roleplay / "realism" vs numeric advantage at all. Tending you wounds, wiping of the blood, and gathering your stuff even after only a 30 second fight might surely take about 5-10 minutes anyway.

But 1 hour? Do you build a small campsite in the middle of the enemy lair / undead infested crypt in this time or do you sit in a dark corner and stare at the wall for 1 hour while the monsters go on about their business 3 rooms further on?



You come with valid arguments. I will reject them all, then go for a compromise.

Firstly, it's not in any way more realistic at all to have small rest being 10 minutes rather than 1 hour. Because it clearly depends on the nature of the encounter, and the participants. There is no explicit call about how using magic is tiring, and we have to base our hypothesis on how we feel armed combat would tire combattants - which is clearly something evolving with training, and thus with level. Beside, neither one nor the other really consider what would happen during this break. You catch your breath (a few minutes), eat & drink (a few minutes too), clean and bind your wounds (from a few minutes to much more depending on the casualties). So, none is more realistic, they are an abstraction.

Secondly, time in a PnP is something as subtle as evanescent. The shorter the time of the rest, the less it becomes a choice. As you stated, 10 minutes or less and already you have to have urgency to make it a meaningfull decision to take a break to rest - which isn't really a decision since the urgency make it a non-solution. So basically, having too short small rest make them just out of reach of player grid of choices -  they become either mandatory or forbidden. Then I will ask, why bothering having small rest at all ?

To put it in a nutshell, this is a tricky mecanic which possess a large part of inherent abstraction. Make it too short and it becomes virtually meaningless, make it too long and it becomes a hurdle either mechanically and narratively. Therefore, the only solution is the dial, but a dial that can evolve during play - at the DM's whim. Hard encounter with lots of casualties? Then need a one hour rest. Easy peasy combat against small fry? Then probably even 10 minutes seems long.
I agree with most people here -  I like the idea of a dial, one that can be set at the beginning of a campaign for tone purposes and adjusted throughout to imply urgency/difficulty of challenges.
The only thing a short rest should let you do is address fatigue and maybe be necessary to recharge some encounter powers.



Off-topic, the discussion is aimed at the timing of rests, not their effects. Thats for a different thread.
 Secondly, time in a PnP is something as subtle as evanescent. The shorter the time of the rest, the less it becomes a choice. As you stated, 10 minutes or less and already you have to have urgency to make it a meaningfull decision to take a break to rest - which isn't really a decision since the urgency make it a non-solution. So basically, having too short small rest make them just out of reach of player grid of choices -  they become either mandatory or forbidden. Then I will ask, why bothering having small rest at all ?



You are right, but that is basicially my point:

I personally do not like to have the short rest being made a real choice (which involves a tradeoff, otherwise it would be no real choice as you say).

My group is perfectly fine with the short rest simply being the assumed "standard" end of any encounter (unless, as pointed out before, the DM does make the active decision that you should not be able to rest for even a couple of minutes and basicially throws stuff at you). This was, IMO possible (and even intended?) with the 10 min short rest, since 10 minutes seems mostly inconsequential, compared to 1 hour.
 
Again, the 1 hour rest (i.e. a resting mechanic which involes a tradeoff besides the existing long rest) seems like you would copy and multiply the known issues with the daily rest and the 5MWD:

Some classes want/need to take a (short) rest basicially after every decent encounter, other simply do not have to. Again, magic users might say to Fighters and the like: Welcome to our world. But this seems a rather odd comparison since spells operate on total different power level as Fighter Maneuvers.

Also, in the future we would have to dicuss not only how to deal with the much discussed 5 minute work day (5MWD) regarding long rests, but also how to deal with the 30 seconds working hour (re short rest).

30SWH - I said it first .


We pretty much agree on the issues that will spring with this duration of short rest if nothing else change.

My stand is that it's the design of the class that is revealing it's flaws and not the time of rest, the problem to be solved. Returning to standard duration of short rest without that in mind would mean nothing else than to blindfold ourselves from this problem.

If the game have to be modular, then we have to be able to change such things as long and short rest duration without throwing the whole system by the window. What a conundrum!

I agree with the idea of making the length of a short rest (or even long rest) being a dial that can be adjusted to suite the tone of the adventure. However I think the default length of a short rest lasting 1 hour feels a little too long. My personal preference would be to set the length somewhere between 10-30 min, but no more than 30 min.

I would also like to throw my opinion in that a short rest should be just that short.  5 or 10 minutes at most and then have the option for gaming groups to adjust it as fits their playstyle for modularity purposes, but the baseline should be 10 minutes.  Having the short rest be an hour long resurfaces resource management problems or a heavy reliance of magical resources (wands of healing or vigor) that editions of DnD prior to 4th routinely suffered from.

The problem with this latest playtest packet overall as far as I can tell it that the designers seem to be listening to fans of prior editions who want the game to be super lethal and punishing to players.  I started playing DnD in 2E and the reason why 4E made certain changes was because groups complained about certain aspects of DnD from the beginning.  Things like clerics being nothing healbots who had to use their whole actions to heal, having to rely on magical healing after an adventure to get back to full or decent amount of hit pts, the one encounter workday (namely at low levels) etc.  4E was highly innovative in correcting these problems and while I think 5E should incorporate aspects of all the DnD editions to go backwards these specific areas is an error, that will do nohting but divide groups and alienate portions of the market (of which 4E fans are a substantive portions of if 5E alienates them the game will suffer), which no one wants given the draconian attitude Hasbro has towards products that fail to meet the projected sales goals.

I have been busy with work and life so I haven't had time to read the playtest as thoroughly as I would like but perusing it  I see that short rest need to be shorter 10 minutes base, taking damage when you are wounded should not mean an automatic death check failure, and cure spells like cure wound should be a swift action and need to be ranged not touch.