Spare dying is still overpowered.

Same as it was with cure minor wounds, but more so with the new rules.  Cantrips shouldn't allow people to get back up.

An orc knocks someone down, and they get back up next turn.  Knock them down again, and again, they get back up.  Unless a second creature comes up to CDG someone, you can't loose.



Suggestion:
Spare the Dying (swift):  Stabilize one dying creature.


Healing Kit (action):  Stabilize one dying creature.   (5 minutes): Bring one stabilized creature to 1 HP.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I agree, as a cantrip it should only stabilize, not bring them to consciousness. Same with the healer's kit, there's no reason for a mundane item to heal HP.
I am good with Spare The Dying stabilizing rather than healing. 

But then everyone would use Healer's Kit then since it heals 1 HP.  

So i'd say we either change both and leave both alone.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Unless a second creature comes up to CDG someone, you can't loose.



Range of touch. If your orcs can't figure out what's happening and kill the caster, they deserve to be brick-walled by a cantrip. 

Yeah, the range of touch really balances the useful application of this spell.

Danny

Unless a second creature comes up to CDG someone, you can't loose.

Range of touch. If your orcs can't figure out what's happening and kill the caster, they deserve to be brick-walled by a cantrip. 

That's why there's 2 clerics.

Knock one down, the other heals.  Can't loose unless they are out numbered.


I am good with Spare The Dying stabilizing rather than healing. 

But then everyone would use Healer's Kit then since it heals 1 HP.  

So i'd say we either change both and leave both alone.

True.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Suggestion:
Spare the Dying:  Stabilize one dying creature, and remove one of it's failed deaths saves.



I like the idea of Spare the Dying just stabilizing a dying creatue, but why remove a failed death save? Stabilized creatures no longer have to make death saves. If they take damage again while unconscious, they become unstable and start over with death saves ("The creature stops being stable, and begins dying again, if it takes any damage.")
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Suggestion:
Spare the Dying:  Stabilize one dying creature, and remove one of it's failed deaths saves.



I like the idea of Spare the Dying just stabilizing a dying creatue, but why remove a failed death save? Stabilized creatures no longer have to make death saves. If they take damage again while unconscious, they become unstable and start over with death saves (unless I've missed a rule about retaining death saves after becoming stable).

Ah..  It does say the number resets when stable.


That simplifies things.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The problem comes more from the rule that ends unconciousness when you regain any HP than by the spell itself - or the medikit.

Removing that silly rule would be sufficient for all to work well. Then, you add the action of waking up an ally. Then, you add the waking up part to some purposely more powerfull spells.
I'd rather make CDG impossible if a concious ally is standing next to the unconcious person. Or atleast that the concious ally gets to make an attack of opportunity that, if it hits, turns the CDG into a regular attack (cause, like, it's hard to carefully slit someones throat while someone else beats you over the head).

"In the game there is magic" - Orethalion

 

Only got words in my copy.

Making it so that casting spells provokes opportunity attacks is the easiest fix for this. I'd like to see that rule anyway.
Making it so that casting spells provokes opportunity attacks is the easiest fix for this. I'd like to see that rule anyway.

Boo!

Danny

Making it so that casting spells provokes opportunity attacks is the easiest fix for this. I'd like to see that rule anyway.


I don't even know what your trying to fix

"In the game there is magic" - Orethalion

 

Only got words in my copy.

I think that spare the dying should cost the cleric 1hp to use and anybody who jumps up to fight should suffer disadvantage in the following round.
Making it so that casting spells provokes opportunity attacks is the easiest fix for this. I'd like to see that rule anyway.

that rule has never affected touch spells, at least not for the last two editions.  Though i don't see much of an issue with reviving a downed ally so long as the ally has to provoke an AoO to stand up.

"Trying to run gritty gothic horror with 4e is like trying to cut down a tree with a hammer, likewise trying to run heroic fantasy with 1e is like trying to hammer a nail with a chainsaw."

 
 

 This is what i get when i hit the Quote button:  http://community.wizards.com/%23

 

  

I think that spare the dying should cost the cleric 1hp to use and anybody who jumps up to fight should suffer disadvantage in the following round.

I would not mind a rule that all characters with 1 hp have disadvantage as they teeter on death's door.  It would also go a long way to making spare the dying feel less powerful, as you could use it to get someone up in combat (particularly to run away), but until they get a real heal they are at significant disadvantage.
You can hear the thread drifting into simulationist fantasising 'Oh, I'd have it just so!' and utterly ignoring why you even have a 'spare the dying'. It's for gameplay reasons.

It's amazing how people miss the gameplay reason (remove sitting out) and actually actively screw it up (oh, we'd have your character gimped because he is on the edge of death - yes, he's basically sitting out because we'll make him miss (disadvantage) and heck he can't get up anyway (we'd have an AoO for getting up)

No doubt all stated by people who DM all the time and couldn't give an example of where they played and enjoyed anything like this stuff.

"In the game there is magic" - Orethalion

 

Only got words in my copy.

Making it so that casting spells provokes opportunity attacks is the easiest fix for this. I'd like to see that rule anyway.


I don't even know what your trying to fix

casting a touch spell in melee every round to make the dropped fighter a weeble

bottom line though cleric have do do something to keep fighters fighting or you'd just have to go back to town for a new fighter every few combats

You can hear the thread drifting into simulationist fantasising 'Oh, I'd have it just so!' and utterly ignoring why you even have a 'spare the dying'. It's for gameplay reasons.

It's amazing how people miss the gameplay reason (remove sitting out) and actually actively screw it up (oh, we'd have your character gimped because he is on the edge of death - yes, he's basically sitting out because we'll make him miss (disadvantage) and heck he can't get up anyway (we'd have an AoO for getting up)

No doubt all stated by people who DM all the time and couldn't give an example of where they played and enjoyed anything like this stuff.



I will admit I think of myself more as a DM than Player. That said, I play far more than I DM, and I hate Spare the Dying (or Cure Minor Wounds). Unless the monsters respond to the spell's effect on combat (by attacking the caster or using Coup de Grace), the fights are way to easy. If there is no challenge in combat, nor fear of death, then it's just not fun in the long run (IMO... others may feel differently).

It's actually bad for the players. If it just stabilized, then yes you are out for the fight. That's maybe 3-4 rounds, or about 10 minutes, at most. You are still interested in the battle, because your allies may spend an actual spell to heal you, or you know if they fall, you die with them. As is, monsters will likely resort to Coup de Grace in order to be a true threat. Then you are not just out for the fight, but possibly for longer until you can be raised or have a new character introduced. Thanks, but no thanks.
You can hear the thread drifting into simulationist fantasising 'Oh, I'd have it just so!' and utterly ignoring why you even have a 'spare the dying'. It's for gameplay reasons.

It's amazing how people miss the gameplay reason (remove sitting out) and actually actively screw it up (oh, we'd have your character gimped because he is on the edge of death - yes, he's basically sitting out because we'll make him miss (disadvantage) and heck he can't get up anyway (we'd have an AoO for getting up)

No doubt all stated by people who DM all the time and couldn't give an example of where they played and enjoyed anything like this stuff.





Fights allegedly don't take as long to resolve in 5e so a player shouldn't miss as much, albeit if you are a man down that fight will take longer.

But that's why I suggested the cleric suffering a 1hp penalty and the PC suffering disadvantage only for the following round.  I agree that gimping a PC for the whole fight if it does drag on can make fights not a lot of fun for the affected players..
You can hear the thread drifting into simulationist fantasising 'Oh, I'd have it just so!' and utterly ignoring why you even have a 'spare the dying'. It's for gameplay reasons.

It's amazing how people miss the gameplay reason (remove sitting out) and actually actively screw it up (oh, we'd have your character gimped because he is on the edge of death - yes, he's basically sitting out because we'll make him miss (disadvantage) and heck he can't get up anyway (we'd have an AoO for getting up)

No doubt all stated by people who DM all the time and couldn't give an example of where they played and enjoyed anything like this stuff.




I'm pretty much on your side on this one.

After a bit testing, it feels like the touch range is quite enough a risk for this action to be stabilizing, +1 hp, and regain conciousness - and the "use all your move to stand up" alteration add up to this. It feels much less whack-a-mole than before, and much more "I come at your rescue before the worst happens."
My players keep going round and round on health and recovery. Being fully effective at 1 hp, jumping up from death to full capabilities, regaining all health after 8 hours sleeping on a dank dungeon floor--these things feel wrong. But every mechanic we've come up with to address these adds unwanted complication. The reduction in hit dice gained during a long rest is a good, simple step in the right direction.

As for STD, we will try disadvantage for 1 one round after being raised from 1 hp. Combined with using all of your move to stand up feels right. TBH, we're probably not going to use the same Prone recovery rules for healthy characters. Using all your move seems excessive, so we're going with "all but 10 feet".
I'm liking the idea of a penalty for being at 1 HP. In 3.5, if you had exactly 0 HP you were disabled, so you could only take either a move or standard action in your turn, you could safely move, but taking any standard action would cause you to lose 1 hit point and lose consciousness. That's something I've missed in 5th edition, which has no equivalent "barely-conscious" effect. 1 HP could be something like that. Then the character who was awakened with STD can get himself to safety but not fight normally.

Yeah, he'd still be out of commission until he could get some real healing, but there should be some incentive to prevent yourself from going unconscious, right?
You can hear the thread drifting into simulationist fantasising 'Oh, I'd have it just so!' and utterly ignoring why you even have a 'spare the dying'. It's for gameplay reasons.

It's amazing how people miss the gameplay reason (remove sitting out) and actually actively screw it up (oh, we'd have your character gimped because he is on the edge of death - yes, he's basically sitting out because we'll make him miss (disadvantage) and heck he can't get up anyway (we'd have an AoO for getting up)

No doubt all stated by people who DM all the time and couldn't give an example of where they played and enjoyed anything like this stuff.



I will admit I think of myself more as a DM than Player. That said, I play far more than I DM, and I hate Spare the Dying (or Cure Minor Wounds). Unless the monsters respond to the spell's effect on combat (by attacking the caster or using Coup de Grace), the fights are way to easy. If there is no challenge in combat, nor fear of death, then it's just not fun in the long run (IMO... others may feel differently).

It's actually bad for the players. If it just stabilized, then yes you are out for the fight. That's maybe 3-4 rounds, or about 10 minutes, at most. You are still interested in the battle, because your allies may spend an actual spell to heal you, or you know if they fall, you die with them. As is, monsters will likely resort to Coup de Grace in order to be a true threat. Then you are not just out for the fight, but possibly for longer until you can be raised or have a new character introduced. Thanks, but no thanks.



I agree completely.  The rules right now limit the DM to using Coup De Grace if they want to add sense of danger and that is not a good system.  Players need to perceive more risk form taking damage.

I can tell you I didn't enjoy spending 7 rounds doing nothing but defense actions and casting cure minor wounds to pickup one of the 3 wizards (techincally one was a fire monk, but built very fragile) every round to drop dailies. That was in addition to an actual healer being in the party as well.

I was in a party of 6 level 4 and being ambushed by an ettin, 5 goblin riders on wolves and something like 20-25 goblin archers scattered around in the woods. The fight ended up being a slow grind because the goblins did plenty enough damage to keep 1/3 of the party unconscious, but couldn't roll high enough often enough to have a real chance to bring down the party.

I don't know if the DM wanted us captured or was just trying to setup a fight that we were better off running away. Whatever the case we foolishly charged in and realized pretty quickly that it was a bad decision. However, after most the wolves were down and all the goblin chieftains the fight was pretty much wittling away at goblin archers scattered around until they finally lost enough that the DM just made them flee. Without cure minor wounds we probably would have TPK'd in less then 5 rounds. 

Big Model: Creative Agenda
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th Edition
Reality Refracted: Social Contracts

My blog of random stuff 

Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke
I can tell you I didn't enjoy spending 7 rounds doing nothing but defense actions and casting cure minor wounds to pickup one of the 3 wizards (techincally one was a fire monk, but built very fragile) every round to drop dailies. That was in addition to an actual healer being in the party as well.

I was in a party of 6 level 4 and being ambushed by an ettin, 5 goblin riders on wolves and something like 20-25 goblin archers scattered around in the woods. The fight ended up being a slow grind because the goblins did plenty enough damage to keep 1/3 of the party unconscious, but couldn't roll high enough often enough to have a real chance to bring down the party.

I don't know if the DM wanted us captured or was just trying to setup a fight that we were better off running away. Whatever the case we foolishly charged in and realized pretty quickly that it was a bad decision. However, after most the wolves were down and all the goblin chieftains the fight was pretty much wittling away at goblin archers scattered around until they finally lost enough that the DM just made them flee. Without cure minor wounds we probably would have TPK'd in less then 5 rounds. 



You probably should have TPK'd in less than 5 rounds if you were outnumbered 6 to 1 and doing this insane tactic of raising one person per turn to cast a spell and be brought down again instead of just retreating with your lives.
I can tell you I didn't enjoy spending 7 rounds doing nothing but defense actions and casting cure minor wounds to pickup one of the 3 wizards (techincally one was a fire monk, but built very fragile) every round to drop dailies. That was in addition to an actual healer being in the party as well.

I was in a party of 6 level 4 and being ambushed by an ettin, 5 goblin riders on wolves and something like 20-25 goblin archers scattered around in the woods. The fight ended up being a slow grind because the goblins did plenty enough damage to keep 1/3 of the party unconscious, but couldn't roll high enough often enough to have a real chance to bring down the party.

I don't know if the DM wanted us captured or was just trying to setup a fight that we were better off running away. Whatever the case we foolishly charged in and realized pretty quickly that it was a bad decision. However, after most the wolves were down and all the goblin chieftains the fight was pretty much wittling away at goblin archers scattered around until they finally lost enough that the DM just made them flee. Without cure minor wounds we probably would have TPK'd in less then 5 rounds. 



You probably should have TPK'd in less than 5 rounds if you were outnumbered 6 to 1 and doing this insane tactic of raising one person per turn to cast a spell and be brought down again instead of just retreating with your lives.



I agree. We had a long conversation after that fight about how crazy the encounter building rules were and how even more crazy cure minor wounds was for an at-will. It was especially bad since I had it as a defensively built monk in conjunction with a cleric.

Edit: I was suprised that people didn't run. I was the only good character in the entire party so I was going to go down fighting to save everyone else, but people that I expected to run, charge in and started casting thunderwave and magic missile.

Big Model: Creative Agenda
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th Edition
Reality Refracted: Social Contracts

My blog of random stuff 

Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke
The only problem I see with that was 'We didn't know it was a grind fight - we had the choice to go into it and did'.

"In the game there is magic" - Orethalion

 

Only got words in my copy.

The only problem I see with that was 'We didn't know it was a grind fight - we had the choice to go into it and did'.


I just want you to realize how ridiculous your statement is here. How do you choose to do something you don't know about? 

We can argue what is or isn't a problem all we want, but currently it is a WoTC problem because one ability contradicts their design goal. They have said in their blog posts they want turns to be fast and combat to be resolved quickly. This ability can creates situation were that doesn't always happen and does it using their encounter rules.

Big Model: Creative Agenda
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th Edition
Reality Refracted: Social Contracts

My blog of random stuff 

Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke
The only problem I see with that was 'We didn't know it was a grind fight - we had the choice to go into it and did'.

I just want you to realize how ridiculous your statement is here. How do you choose to do something you don't know about? 

We can argue what is or isn't a problem all we want, but currently it is a WoTC problem because one ability contradicts their design goal. They have said in their blog posts they want turns to be fast and combat to be resolved quickly. This ability can creates situation were that doesn't always happen and does it using their encounter rules.

Combat should of been fast, because you should of all died in a few rounds.

The fact that you survived, is proof that the spell needs to change.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The only problem I see with that was 'We didn't know it was a grind fight - we had the choice to go into it and did'.

I just want you to realize how ridiculous your statement is here. How do you choose to do something you don't know about? 

We can argue what is or isn't a problem all we want, but currently it is a WoTC problem because one ability contradicts their design goal. They have said in their blog posts they want turns to be fast and combat to be resolved quickly. This ability can creates situation were that doesn't always happen and does it using their encounter rules.

Combat should of been fast, because you should of all died in a few rounds.

The fact that you survived, is proof that the spell needs to change.



I agree.

Big Model: Creative Agenda
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th Edition
Reality Refracted: Social Contracts

My blog of random stuff 

Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke
Cantrips should be simple spells. For me, the act of bringing someone back from the brink of death, or even curing wounds in the heat of battle, would require more than a simple incantation. 

I am for stabilization.  
The only problem I see with that was 'We didn't know it was a grind fight - we had the choice to go into it and did'.


I just want you to realize how ridiculous your statement is here. How do you choose to do something you don't know about?


Adult responsibility.

You walk along, trip over a rock you didn't see and drop a fragile, precious item of yours that you were carrying. It shatters.

Most people I know would take that on the chin. Not try and find someone else to blame for it.

Also I did describe it as a problem of lack of knowledge - not much of a problem, as the players learn to evaluate enemies with greater accuracy over time.

We can argue what is or isn't a problem all we want, but currently it is a WoTC problem because one ability contradicts their design goal. They have said in their blog posts they want turns to be fast and combat to be resolved quickly. This ability can creates situation were that doesn't always happen and does it using their encounter rules.


They probably want combat to be resolved quickly when it's in the PC's favour.

But maybe they want it to be quick, even if it's a quick TPK for the PC's (rather than WOTC being fine with a dragged out 'use every single trick in the book we have to survive' play). In which case you have a point.

I'd be curious about a replay of the encounter and having some of those goblins move in and simply coup de grace the fallen PC's. Perhaps the DM was playing with kid gloves (or the goblins moved in, but got unlucky and were hit easily)

"In the game there is magic" - Orethalion

 

Only got words in my copy.

The only problem I see with that was 'We didn't know it was a grind fight - we had the choice to go into it and did'.


I just want you to realize how ridiculous your statement is here. How do you choose to do something you don't know about?


Adult responsibility.

You walk along, trip over a rock you didn't see and drop a fragile, precious item of yours that you were carrying. It shatters.

Most people I know would take that on the chin. Not try and find someone else to blame for it.


What in the world are you talking about? How did you make the jump from not enjoying doing the same action for 7 rounds to here? I litterally said "we foolishly charged in and realized pretty quickly that it was a bad decision." Your previous statement didn't contridict anything I said in the post you quoted, and now your being insulting about something that I never said or implied in any post of mine that you quoted. 

Also I did describe it as a problem of lack of knowledge - not much of a problem, as the players learn to evaluate enemies with greater accuracy over time.

in most cases I would agree, I think in this case we probably should of all died or been captured when we didn't retreat immediately after realized the size of the the ambush.

We can argue what is or isn't a problem all we want, but currently it is a WoTC problem because one ability contradicts their design goal. They have said in their blog posts they want turns to be fast and combat to be resolved quickly. This ability can creates situation were that doesn't always happen and does it using their encounter rules.


They probably want combat to be resolved quickly when it's in the PC's favour.

But maybe they want it to be quick, even if it's a quick TPK for the PC's (rather than WOTC being fine with a dragged out 'use every single trick in the book we have to survive' play). In which case you have a point.

Its possible that they could mean either, what Mearl has said on a couple different podcasts/hangouts is they like for combat to be quick.

I'd be curious about a replay of the encounter and having some of those goblins move in and simply coup de grace the fallen PC's. Perhaps the DM was playing with kid gloves (or the goblins moved in, but got unlucky and were hit easily)

I could ask if he kept a log. The only thing I could get is a chat log, but it wouldn't catch any of the gmrolls so its mostly meaningless. I think it was a combination the party having high AC, the old fighter parry, Iron Root Defense, Dodge and cure minor wounds. With the way Opportunity attacks function now there is no way to stop a coup de grace, he just choose to target people who were conscious.

Big Model: Creative Agenda
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th Edition
Reality Refracted: Social Contracts

My blog of random stuff 

Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke
Same as it was with cure minor wounds, but more so with the new rules.  Cantrips shouldn't allow people to get back up.

An orc knocks someone down, and they get back up next turn.  Knock them down again, and again, they get back up.  Unless a second creature comes up to CDG someone, you can't loose.



Suggestion:
Spare the Dying:  Stabilize one dying creature.



Healing Kit's have the same issue, and should be treated the same.




I don't see a problem here.  I don't everything in a game should be a grindhouse designed to hose down the PCs.  Time and again it seems that prior edition players (and I am no saying you are one as I don't know what edition you started with, what edition you favor, etc. So again, not specifying you I am just making a general statement) seem to want this high level of lethality that swings everything in favor of the DM and not PCs.

I have played earlier editions of DnD and this was a problem that many people complained about; resource mgmt, reliance of magical healing to get back to hps between encounters.  As it stands in this playtest packet certain things are a step backwards in the wrong direction like cure wounds taking an action and being touch instead of ranged, this again relegates clerics to being healbots who do nothing but heal companions in combat.  This was a problem that every prior edition of DnD had and the designers have evenly openly acknowdged and tried to correct.  If you have  a class that the last guy to show up at the table ends up playing, or you roll a dice to see who gets stuck with (again things the designers have joked about with the class in previous editions) then that class and the abilities around it are pee poor in design.  Short rest need to be 10 minutes or 15 times taking an hour out to do short rests returns to  the one encounter workday at low levels that previous editions had and a reliance on magical wands and potions ad nauseum at high levels to be competent and have multiple encounters.  Lastly, the part about a dying character auto-failing death checks is acerbic in the extreme.
I don't see a problem here.  I don't everything in a game should be a grindhouse designed to hose down the PCs.  Time and again it seems that prior edition players (and I am no saying you are one as I don't know what edition you started with, what edition you favor, etc. So again, not specifying you I am just making a general statement) seem to want this high level of lethality that swings everything in favor of the DM and not PCs.

Lethality should be adjusted other ways, like how much you heal between combats.  

It shouldn't all rest in weather you have 1 specific power or not.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I don't see a problem here.  I don't everything in a game should be a grindhouse designed to hose down the PCs.  Time and again it seems that prior edition players (and I am no saying you are one as I don't know what edition you started with, what edition you favor, etc. So again, not specifying you I am just making a general statement) seem to want this high level of lethality that swings everything in favor of the DM and not PCs.

Lethality should be adjusted other ways, like how much you heal between combats.  

It shouldn't all rest in weather you have 1 specific power or not.



Actually dude, I am torn to agree with you on this. On the one hand I am in 100% agreement with the lethality being adjusted on how you heal in between combats etc, but then on the other hand I am not because of how the current playtest changed the healing in between combats, the lethality of taking damage when a man is already dying (talking about kicking a player when he is down), the changes to the healing spells (ranges and actions), etc. I guess, I'll say if those things change I would be open to the the changes you are talking about.
The only problem I see with that was 'We didn't know it was a grind fight - we had the choice to go into it and did'.


I just want you to realize how ridiculous your statement is here. How do you choose to do something you don't know about?


Adult responsibility.

You walk along, trip over a rock you didn't see and drop a fragile, precious item of yours that you were carrying. It shatters.

Most people I know would take that on the chin. Not try and find someone else to blame for it.


What in the world are you talking about? How did you make the jump from not enjoying doing the same action for 7 rounds to here? I litterally said "we foolishly charged in and realized pretty quickly that it was a bad decision." Your previous statement didn't contridict anything I said in the post you quoted, and now your being insulting about something that I never said or implied in any post of mine that you quoted.



You said 'I just want you to realize how ridiculous your statement is here.' - but actually I'm the first to be insulting?

You asked 'How do you choose to do something you don't know about?' - I answered.

It's your estimate that it was put there purely for insult purposes. It sounds like your stuck thinking your estimate isn't even your estimate but just 'how things are'. Some absolutely knowledge. No doubt. So I'll leave it there.

"In the game there is magic" - Orethalion

 

Only got words in my copy.

I really don't understand when this game became a DM vs PCs thing. I thought the purpose of D&D was for a group of friends to get together and for EVERYONE to have a good time. 

As a DM you get to design a complex puzzle of traps and ambushes and run a bunch of baddies and see if you can  challenge your friends and tell a sweeping, fascinating story AS A GROUP

How is it fun to have a TPK? That means the DM failed to set a reasonable difficulty level and overtaxed his players and then killed the characters they've been working to develop as personalities with back stories. That means the party failed to deduce the proper solution to a dire situation and lost the characters they've been putting a lot of effort into. Either way, it's a failure. 

That's one thing if its a one shot at your LGS, but an entirely different story if you're playing in a heavy role playing campaign with a big story arc and a lot of character background.  A TPK shouldn't be the first recourse when you stumble into a combat thats too challenging, and if you stick around and try to gut it out, why would the enemy start running battlefield cleanup (coup de grace) when there are still mobile, active threats opposing them.
My group struggles plenty with scads of healing potions from a module we ran and a cleric in the party. We've been fighting the hybrid class fighter/clerics and rogue/clerics and a bunch of liches that are glass cannons. The DM stretches thin our resources by telling us that we don't have time for a long rest. We have to make tough moral choices with plenty of grey area despite the paladin in the group. The role playing comes to the fore, but wouldn't be possible if not for swift healing and the DM scaling back when he knew the damage he wathrowing our way would wipe us out. Did it ruin anything that finger of death didn't do it's full damage? Nope! It was still intense and a daunting and captivating and everyone was on the edge of their seats. 

You can have the threat and even reality of lethality in your campaign without immediately crying foul over a swift 1hp touch healing spell. Split the party, use traps, ambush, and use spells. But if your goal is to TPK, I think you may have missed the point. The game is supposed to be FUN.  
I don't think the playtest approach to healing spells is a step backwards - instead of in combat heraling being easy, they've made it a choice for different styles of cleric - Healing Word for those clerics who want to get stuck into the fight and Cure Wounds for those who enjoy the role as vital healer but don't want to be fighting all the time.  However, I'd reduce Healing Word to d6s instead to make it more balanced.

Spare the Dying should restore a character to 1hp but they should have disadvantage until they succeed on a Con save at the end of their turn.  If they get zonked again before they've made that Con save, spare the dying can't be used on them again.

However, I do think that a healer's kit should be necessary if PCs want to spend more than one HD during a short rest.
I don't think the playtest approach to healing spells is a step backwards - instead of in combat heraling being easy, they've made it a choice for different styles of cleric - Healing Word for those clerics who want to get stuck into the fight and Cure Wounds for those who enjoy the role as vital healer but don't want to be fighting all the time.  However, I'd reduce Healing Word to d6s instead to make it more balanced.

Spare the Dying should restore a character to 1hp but they should have disadvantage until they succeed on a Con save at the end of their turn.  If they get zonked again before they've made that Con save, spare the dying can't be used on them again.

However, I do think that a healer's kit should be necessary if PCs want to spend more than one HD during a short rest.



You don't think Healing Word doing basically half as much as cure is balanced enough?  I think the healing kit in general is unnecessary.  Let the PCs spend s may HD as they have and feel they need to spend to keep adventuring.