## Stop Measuring in Units We Don't Use (Feet and Minutes)

Please use the measurements you players (ie your customers) use.  We don't use feet or minutes/seconds.  We use spaces and rounds/turns.

Much of the world (ie your customers) don't use feet as a measurement of distance.  You're going to have to tell them "it's about two meters".  Or... you could have everyone use a metric (so to speak) of spaces on a board.  Everyone understands spaces on a board.  Even 8 year olds playing Life, Monopoly or Risk get the concept of spaces.

Using feet in multiples of 5 as the basic unit makes extra work for players.  Instead of counting, "one, two, three...", you're making us count in multiples of five (FOR NO BENEFIT) "five, ten, fifteen...".  Divide everything by five and be done with it.

Players (ie your customers) play on grids (sometimes hex grids).  You SELL things with grids squares on them.  Clearly you KNOW that's how we play.  We don't play on an analogue world.  Why give us inflated numbers that will require us to do more math?  i don't want to play "remember your multiplication tables" just to appease the edition warriors who are soon be to aged out of playing D&D.  Be honest with yourselves and use spaces.

We don't use hours, minutes and seconds at the table.  There are encounters, rounds and turns.  The only exception would be things that happen outside of the game mechanics, the role-playing end of things (you wait for an hour).  The game end doesn't use minutes or seconds.  Be honest with yourselves and use the same units we do.
I prefer using unit measures that make sense in the game world as well as for us and feet/minutes/hours/days does. Its also essential that the core rules does not require map. Thanksfully the conversion is easy enought.
CorrinAvatan
Joined Jan 2007
1246 Posts
Please use the measurements you players (ie your customers) use.  We don't use feet or minutes/seconds.  We use spaces and rounds/turns.

Much of the world (ie your customers) don't use feet as a measurement of distance.  You're going to have to tell them "it's about two meters".  Or... you could have everyone use a metric (so to speak) of spaces on a board.  Everyone understands spaces on a board.  Even 8 year olds playing Life, Monopoly or Risk get the concept of spaces.

Using feet in multiples of 5 as the basic unit makes extra work for players.  Instead of counting, "one, two, three...", you're making us count in multiples of five (FOR NO BENEFIT) "five, ten, fifteen...".  Divide everything by five and be done with it.

Players (ie your customers) play on grids (sometimes hex grids).  You SELL things with grids squares on them.  Clearly you KNOW that's how we play.  We don't play on an analogue world.  Why give us inflated numbers that will require us to do more math?  i don't want to play "remember your multiplication tables" just to appease the edition warriors who are soon be to aged out of playing D&D.  Be honest with yourselves and use spaces.

We don't use hours, minutes and seconds at the table.  There are encounters, rounds and turns.  The only exception would be things that happen outside of the game mechanics, the role-playing end of things (you wait for an hour).  The game end doesn't use minutes or seconds.  Be honest with yourselves and use the same units we do.

Just because YOU don't use them, doesn't mean others don't.

Just because they sell stuff with grids, doesn't mean people don't use hexes, or do theater of the mind.

One of the (bigger) complaints of 4e was that the mechanics of the game made it nearly impossible to play without having a map; while I'm not going to get into an argument as to the validity of that (as YMMV), it appears they made an active decision to make it that the core rules don't assume you're using a grid/hex map, and won't need one.

Salla, on minions: I typically use them as encounter filler. 'I didn't quite fill out the XP budget, not enough room left for a decent near-level monster ... sprinkle in a few minions'. Kind of like monster styrofoam packing peanuts.
Lord_Kyrion
Joined Nov 2012
1087 Posts
My characters have no idea what a round or a square is, they would be so lost!
ren1999
Joined May 2012
751 Posts
I like the idea of using space for movement,
and turn and round for time.

Why not just use all measurements for all the descriptions?

Reach 5 feet/1.5 meters/1 space

Spell cast in 1 turn/6 seconds
Spell lasts for 1 round/around 10 x 6 seconds/1 minute

My D&D5E JavaScript Roll Tracker http://dnd5.weebly.com/

GreenKnight
Joined Mar 2001
2483 Posts
Please use the measurements you players (ie your customers) use.  We don't use feet or minutes/seconds.  We use spaces and rounds/turns.

We do?

Game of Thrones started 250 rounds ago and the supermarket is 528 squares away.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure those aren't the measurements I use.
alienux
Joined Jan 2013
903 Posts
I use feet and minutes and much prefer the added realism it gives over "squares" when roleplaying. I sure hope they don't change this.

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Guitars & Gaming

AaronOfBarbaria
Joined Sep 2007
9021 Posts
Why not just use all measurements for all the descriptions? Reach 5 feet/1.5 meters/1 space

Spell cast in 1 turn/6 seconds
Spell lasts for 1 round/around 10 x 6 seconds/1 minute

Because, when it comes to RPG products, word count = price.

I estimate, based on how many times figures of distance and time appear in most D&D books, that listing 3 separate measurements for each one would end up adding a solid 1/10th the total pages into the book again - and that is likely to push the price of each book up an amount that would be noticed.

...and that's money that no one will be happy to spend because "Yes, I would like to pay more for no reason other than to have extra things that I am sure I will never use," is what no one said, ever.

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

Expalphalog
Joined Oct 2008
45 Posts
I have never once during any game of D&D in any edition referred to a Turn, Round, or Space. Do not propose to know what the customer base wants, OP.
wildefox
Joined Sep 2011
646 Posts
As a Canadian, my default system of measurement is metric. I have also lived in England and Germany where their system of measurement was metric. Everyone I ever encountered or spoke to understood about how far five feet was. Did they know the exact distance? Of course not. Do I? Not at all. But if someone describes something as being a foot away from me, or ten feet away from me, I have a decent idea of how close it is. Certainly not enough to draw a detailed diagram, but easily enough for me to know if I can punch it or not.

There isn't really a point to arguing whether imperial or metric measurements should be used. D&D is an American game and they use American measurement. As long as we all understand what the system is conveying, the system is fine. One thing that will confuse people though, is refering to distance in terms of "squares". No one knows the default dimensions of an arbitrary square drawn in space. A term that has no relevance to anyone outside of the game is far more likely to be misconstrued than a unit of measurement from a foriegn country with significant global presence in media.
jsenff
Joined Jan 2010
24 Posts
This is the third (I think) of the same thread, by the same guy, and every time it's been pretty heavily argued against.  Stop demanding this- minutes and feet are what your characters would measure the world in.

Your fighter does not know that he can cover 6 squares in a round if he uses his move action.
Dragonette
Joined Jul 2011
1077 Posts
Hey guys,

This is more of a conversation for D&D Next General Discussion since it doesn't describe a playtest session, so I'll be moving it there.

Thanks!

Monica

Monica

Wizards of the Coast Online Community Coordinator

Getting to Know Your Magic Online Client

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Grifford
Joined Apr 2013
1070 Posts
We don't use feet or minutes/seconds.  We use spaces and rounds/turns.

Speak for yourself. Keep your hyper-gamist jargon out of my core rules.

If you have to fix it, it's broken.

MechaPilot
Joined Oct 2007
16489 Posts
Using feet in multiples of 5 as the basic unit makes extra work for players.  Instead of counting, "one, two, three...", you're making us count in multiples of five (FOR NO BENEFIT) "five, ten, fifteen...".  Divide everything by five and be done with it.

Take a deep breath and calm down.  There's no good reason not to print the measurement in real world measurements.  I personally advocate that they print all ranges and areas in all three formats as follows: "Range: X ft, Y m, Z sq."  It's a very minimal amount of page space to provide such a conveniece to the game's players, and it lets everyone have the measurment they prefer.

We don't use hours, minutes and seconds at the table.  There are encounters, rounds and turns.  The only exception would be things that happen outside of the game mechanics, the role-playing end of things (you wait for an hour).  The game end doesn't use minutes or seconds.  Be honest with yourselves and use the same units we do.

Really?  You don't use hours when describing overland travel time?  I think a LOT of us do use hours for that at the very least.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

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mellored
Joined Jul 2008
28803 Posts
My characters have no idea what a round or a square is, they would be so lost!

My character doesn't know what a foot, minute, second, hour, or meter is.  He's lucky to know what a day is.

On the other hand, he does know how far he can throw a halfling, and how long it will take him to land.

Ergo, all units of measurement should be based halfling tosses.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

DemoMonkey
Joined Feb 2009
2694 Posts
Lets return to some sensible units of measurement, suitable to the time period.

Barleycorns, spans, cubits, rods, chains and furlongs FTW!
Garthanos
Joined Jan 2009
22412 Posts
My characters have no idea what a round or a square is, they would be so lost!

good thing they arent sitting at the table playing the game.
 Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly?  Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord) Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairnessReflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character)  At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e. By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one "Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."
Cupz
Joined Dec 2012
56 Posts
I highly prefer using Feet and Time instead of spaces and rounds.  Majority of the time my group doesn't use a visual display for combat so having spaces would not make sense for us.  Also, converting from one to the other is very simple and fast to do.  I'd assume you could go through your whole character sheet in a minute and change it all to spaces and rounds if that's what you prefer.
GMforPowergamers
Joined Apr 2006
3300 Posts
I really want the game to flow as a game, so I want to measure time as Combat Scenes, RP Scenes, Explore Scense, put togather to make game nights and archs. I want Combat scenes to rounds and spaces, and both to be abstract. rounds are anywhere from 3-10 seconds, spaces are 3-10 feet (1-3 meters)

Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?

Joined May 2012
2274 Posts
TlDr: D&D is not a boardgame.  Please stop trying to turn it into one.
GreenKnight
Joined Mar 2001
2483 Posts
Remember the tv show "24"? They should've renamed it "14,400 Rounds."
Ed_Warlord
Joined Feb 2012
741 Posts
Please use the measurements you players (ie your customers) use.  We don't use feet or minutes/seconds.  We use spaces and rounds/turns.

Much of the world (ie your customers) don't use feet as a measurement of distance.  You're going to have to tell them "it's about two meters".  Or... you could have everyone use a metric (so to speak) of spaces on a board.  Everyone understands spaces on a board.  Even 8 year olds playing Life, Monopoly or Risk get the concept of spaces.

Using feet in multiples of 5 as the basic unit makes extra work for players.  Instead of counting, "one, two, three...", you're making us count in multiples of five (FOR NO BENEFIT) "five, ten, fifteen...".  Divide everything by five and be done with it.

Players (ie your customers) play on grids (sometimes hex grids).  You SELL things with grids squares on them.  Clearly you KNOW that's how we play.  We don't play on an analogue world.  Why give us inflated numbers that will require us to do more math?  i don't want to play "remember your multiplication tables" just to appease the edition warriors who are soon be to aged out of playing D&D.  Be honest with yourselves and use spaces.

We don't use hours, minutes and seconds at the table.  There are encounters, rounds and turns.  The only exception would be things that happen outside of the game mechanics, the role-playing end of things (you wait for an hour).  The game end doesn't use minutes or seconds.  Be honest with yourselves and use the same units we do.

Obviously, the thing to do is get back to D&D's wargaming roots and use a scale.   One inch equals so many feet.  Six, for instance, would be close to two meters and fit the typical 25mm figure.  Game units of time should also translate to real ones to make them easier to understand.  A round could be six seconds or go back to being a minute and a turn being ten minutes.  You could also use units of encumbrance.  It used to be gp at ten to the lb.  And, it should work out to be close to something convenient in both lbs or metric kgs.

- Warlords! Join the 'Officer Country' Group! Join Grognards for 4e, the D&D that changed D&D.
Rastapopoulos
Joined Jan 2013
1789 Posts

Haven't this topic already been made and died a long time ago?

Someone cast raise dead on it?
dmgorgon
Joined Jan 2012
7253 Posts
DM:  "You see a group of orcs charging at you from a distance of about 520 spaces."

DM:  "There are about 350 rounds left before the sun goes down."

DM:   "You all wait 5 rounds for the wench to serve your drinks"

DM:   "Monster is about 13 squares in length"

mellored
Joined Jul 2008
28803 Posts
DM:  "You see a group of orcs charging at you from a distance of about 520 spaces."

DM:  "There are about 350 rounds left before the sun goes down."

DM:   "You all wait 5 rounds for the wench to serve your drinks"

DM:   "Monster is about 13 squares in length"

"You see a group of orcs charging at you from a distance of about 12 halfling tosses.

"There are 350 rounds of beer left before the sun goes down"

"You all wait 6 rounds or beer for the wench to serve your drinks"

"Monster is about 1/2 a halfing toss in length".

Fun thing, unit's are all made up no matter what you do.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Haldrik
Joined Jan 2004
12095 Posts
Lets return to some sensible units of measurement, suitable to the time period.

Barleycorns, spans, cubits, rods, chains and furlongs FTW!

A cubit is a ½ meter.

Meter ≈ yard ≈ square: seems to be the optimal solution as a unit of measurement.

Monsieur_Moustache
Joined Aug 2004
1968 Posts
The metric system is pretty common in the US, the exception is commercial activities targetting US citizens.

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

bronze_hero
Joined Feb 2012
345 Posts
If we're gonna write the rules as RL as possible then metric is the way to
Rastapopoulos
Joined Jan 2013
1789 Posts

1 yard is close enough to 1 meter that I don't think someone used to the imperial system would be too confused trying to figure meter-based measurements.

But... since I grew up using the metric system I might be wrong about that.
Haldrik
Joined Jan 2004
12095 Posts
In the US, the reallife analogs to D&D combat, like football fields and gun ranges, are measured in yards.
GreenKnight
Joined Mar 2001
2483 Posts
In the US, the reallife analogs to D&D combat, like football fields and gun ranges, are measured in yards.

No they're not, you lying liar. They're measured in squares. A football field is 60 squares long. Haven't you ever watched a football game where the announcer said that a runner had made it to the 6 Square Line?
Orzel
Joined Aug 2007
5690 Posts
I measure in first downs and character frames.

Humans speed: 1st and 10.
Dwarf speed: 2nd and 2.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

wildefox
Joined Sep 2011
646 Posts
So aside from the OP (who hasn't been back) is there anyone arguing for this change? Or are we all just piling in this thread to agree it is ridiculous.
Orc_Welfin
Joined Sep 2012
611 Posts
I've removed content from this thread. Trolling/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct

You can review the Code of Conduct here: company.wizards.com/conduct

Please remember to keep your posts polite, on topic and refrain from personal attacks. You are free to disagree with one another as long as it is done in a respectful manner.
Narl
Joined Sep 2007
23 Posts
Using squares instead of feet/yards/meters is a terrible idea. Talk about breaking immersion. Plus it would make all those fireballs square again.

The metric vs. imperial discussion is worthwhile.

For D&D, I'd much rather stick to imperial. Why? Because it evokes more of a fantasy feel than metric does. Feet and miles (of varying length!) have been around since at least Roman times. Having a grizzled ranger speak of distances in "miles" just feels better than if he started talking about "kilometers", without going as far as using things like furlongs and leagues, which everyone would need a table to convert.
LordVonDerp
Joined Feb 2013
541 Posts
lets all start using the metric system 1 meter square makes everything easier.

"Trying to run gritty gothic horror with 4e is like trying to cut down a tree with a hammer, likewise trying to run heroic fantasy with 1e is like trying to hammer a nail with a chainsaw."

This is what i get when i hit the Quote button:  http://community.wizards.com/%23

AaronOfBarbaria
Joined Sep 2007
9021 Posts
lets all start using the metric system 1 meter square makes everything easier.

And for ultimate ease (and a world not made up of spheres that I draw as squares) we will call that 1 meter per hex which is about what I have been doing in general for years... that is, when using any kind of battle-map in the first place.

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

Psikerlord
Joined Mar 2007
3137 Posts
Please use the measurements you players (ie your customers) use.  We don't use feet or minutes/seconds.  We use spaces and rounds/turns.

Much of the world (ie your customers) don't use feet as a measurement of distance.  You're going to have to tell them "it's about two meters".  Or... you could have everyone use a metric (so to speak) of spaces on a board.  Everyone understands spaces on a board.  Even 8 year olds playing Life, Monopoly or Risk get the concept of spaces.

Using feet in multiples of 5 as the basic unit makes extra work for players.  Instead of counting, "one, two, three...", you're making us count in multiples of five (FOR NO BENEFIT) "five, ten, fifteen...".  Divide everything by five and be done with it.

Players (ie your customers) play on grids (sometimes hex grids).  You SELL things with grids squares on them.  Clearly you KNOW that's how we play.  We don't play on an analogue world.  Why give us inflated numbers that will require us to do more math?  i don't want to play "remember your multiplication tables" just to appease the edition warriors who are soon be to aged out of playing D&D.  Be honest with yourselves and use spaces.

We don't use hours, minutes and seconds at the table.  There are encounters, rounds and turns.  The only exception would be things that happen outside of the game mechanics, the role-playing end of things (you wait for an hour).  The game end doesn't use minutes or seconds.  Be honest with yourselves and use the same units we do.

Disagree - I vastly prefer minutes and feet.

spaces and turns is too gameboardy
Psikerlord
Joined Mar 2007
3137 Posts
Using squares instead of feet/yards/meters is a terrible idea. Talk about breaking immersion. Plus it would make all those fireballs square again.

The metric vs. imperial discussion is worthwhile.

For D&D, I'd much rather stick to imperial. Why? Because it evokes more of a fantasy feel than metric does. Feet and miles (of varying length!) have been around since at least Roman times. Having a grizzled ranger speak of distances in "miles" just feels better than if he started talking about "kilometers", without going as far as using things like furlongs and leagues, which everyone would need a table to convert.

yeah exactly, agree totally, keep that olde time vibe and keep the immersion flowing!
The_Jester
Joined Oct 2003
6103 Posts
Please use the measurements you players (ie your customers) use.  We don't use feet or minutes/seconds.  We use spaces and rounds/turns.

Much of the world (ie your customers) don't use feet as a measurement of distance.  You're going to have to tell them "it's about two meters".  Or... you could have everyone use a metric (so to speak) of spaces on a board.  Everyone understands spaces on a board.  Even 8 year olds playing Life, Monopoly or Risk get the concept of spaces.

Using feet in multiples of 5 as the basic unit makes extra work for players.  Instead of counting, "one, two, three...", you're making us count in multiples of five (FOR NO BENEFIT) "five, ten, fifteen...".  Divide everything by five and be done with it.

Players (ie your customers) play on grids (sometimes hex grids).  You SELL things with grids squares on them.  Clearly you KNOW that's how we play.  We don't play on an analogue world.  Why give us inflated numbers that will require us to do more math?  i don't want to play "remember your multiplication tables" just to appease the edition warriors who are soon be to aged out of playing D&D.  Be honest with yourselves and use spaces.

We don't use hours, minutes and seconds at the table.  There are encounters, rounds and turns.  The only exception would be things that happen outside of the game mechanics, the role-playing end of things (you wait for an hour).  The game end doesn't use minutes or seconds.  Be honest with yourselves and use the same units we do.

Except... I've never used a battlemap for Next. I've specifically avoided it. And even when I won't be playtesting I'll only use a battlemat half the time.  Heck, even in my Pathfinder campaign I only use a battlemat 3/4 of the time.

"Spaces" while delightfully non-Imperial is a pain because I need to covert it into feet or meters every time I drift into Theatre of the Mind.
And it's very, very mechanical. It reminds me very much that I'm playing a game.  It breaks the immersion reducing a shared story and journey into imagination into just another game.

Tracking spells by hours and minutes is fine. I'm not going to track by tens of rounds let alone by hundreds. I'm not counting down 7200 rounds to find out when a spell expires. That's ridiculous.

#### Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuilding.

Monsieur_Moustache
Joined Aug 2004
1968 Posts
Using squares instead of feet/yards/meters is a terrible idea. Talk about breaking immersion. Plus it would make all those fireballs square again.

The metric vs. imperial discussion is worthwhile.

For D&D, I'd much rather stick to imperial. Why? Because it evokes more of a fantasy feel than metric does. Feet and miles (of varying length!) have been around since at least Roman times. Having a grizzled ranger speak of distances in "miles" just feels better than if he started talking about "kilometers", without going as far as using things like furlongs and leagues, which everyone would need a table to convert.

There are two parameters, the units and the names given to them.

I don't care if a unit is called Bazarulitum in game if there's a familiar reference behind.
If something called a step has a value of 50 cm, I make no effort to think about a distance of 150 steps, as a meter is a familiar reference, and its value is 2 steps.
I can't visualize 13 feet on the fly. I know that the value of a feet is 30.48 cm. I can multiply it by 13. But I can't visualize this thing on the fly at all.

The immersion argument is just not honest.
We can design an unit with a retro name, and just give it a reference familiar to the two systems. The fact is just that some imperial unit users don't seem to be able to accept a compromise, others would be glad to accept, and try to find justifications.

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.