My difficulties with the current packet.

I'll cut to the chase. Aside from 56 pages of spells vs 9 pages of feats (but don't worry, fighters can still "do things") and ridiculous focus on only magical healing, I'll try to hit upon the key notes that changed just this latest packet.

1. Critical hits. Oh, wow. Isn't there supposed to be a thrill when I roll a natural 20? Normal roll is 2d6+2 (2-14; avg 9), crit is 3d6+2 (3-18; avg 13). You can easily roll under your normal damage with a critical hit.

2. Hinder. There are literally no real rules on this. I hope this is a placeholder, because currently I have no idea what sort of action this should take (can I do this as a free action?). While I'm sure a DM could adjudicate it in a somewhat worthwhile manner, this really doesn't help anybody by being spectacularly uninformative about the rules.

3. Healer's Kit. Interesting that it in no way helps short or long rests.

4. Speaking of Short Rests: An hour for a short rest? hey, that's not gonna slow gameplay at all. It's like a diet version of 5mwd. And what can you do? Oh, heal a dabble of hit points by resting up (just like with healing surges, only much more limited, and it takes an hour to do). This looks like a terrible comprimise in which everybody loses.

5. Dying. Hands down, 3 kindergartners punching you for 1hp of damage is more deadly to an unconscious victim than a giant with a waraxe. This also looks like a terrible comprimise in which everybody loses.

I'll keep my criticisms of "this feature isn't in the playtest yet" (things like martial vs caster parity, peasants beating angels at charisma, hp bloat, empty levels, weapons and armor balance, etc) to other posts.

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."

I really hope they fix crtical hit soon, because now Called Shot Feat is now useless. 
They should get rid of Called Shot Feat now, because it's one of the worse 9lv feats in the game.

Hate is too strong of a word so I'll use extremely dislike the new crtical hit rule.  
Yeah, right now critical hits actually become LESS helpful as you level.
2d12 + 5 = possibly close to double damage
6d12 + 5 = barely noticable increase in damage.

"Trying to run gritty gothic horror with 4e is like trying to cut down a tree with a hammer, likewise trying to run heroic fantasy with 1e is like trying to hammer a nail with a chainsaw."

 
 

 This is what i get when i hit the Quote button:  http://community.wizards.com/%23

 

  

2. Hinder. There are literally no real rules on this. I hope this is a placeholder, because currently I have no idea what sort of action this should take (can I do this as a free action?). While I'm sure a DM could adjudicate it in a somewhat worthwhile manner, this really doesn't help anybody by being spectacularly uninformative about the rules.

Hinder is an action that work similar to Help in that it can influence a nearby creature's next attack or check by imposing disadvantage.  (How To Play PDF pg. 14)

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I wish they would just get rid of critical hits.  And as for healers kits, good, they should not be for short term healing.  And since when was kindergarten children fighting with lethal damage.  And I don't even want the game balance for fighting kittens, mice, preschoolers, or ballerinas.
I wish they would just get rid of critical hits.  And as for healers kits, good, they should not be for short term healing.  And since when was kindergarten children fighting with lethal damage.  And I don't even want the game balance for fighting kittens, mice, preschoolers, or ballerinas.



I like ballerinas!
I wish they would just get rid of critical hits.  And as for healers kits, good, they should not be for short term healing.  And since when was kindergarten children fighting with lethal damage.  And I don't even want the game balance for fighting kittens, mice, preschoolers, or ballerinas.



I like ballerinas!



I like ballerinas, it's just embarrassing getting beat up by them, so I would prefer their be no mechanic in the game for them.
Yup, a handful of changes that make absolutely no sense, while completely ignoring the many things that need fixing. That's all this packet is. A complete disgrace that may have killed what little interest I ever had in D&DN.
I'll add my voice to the call for better critical his. The previous version (critical=max damage + regular die-roll ed damage) was prefect, I thought, giving a range of max dmg to double max damage. A critical should NEVER do less damage than a regular hit might have.
Yup, a handful of changes that make absolutely no sense, while completely ignoring the many things that need fixing. That's all this packet is. A complete disgrace that may have killed what little interest I ever had in D&DN.



If the introduction of minor rules changes 'kills what little interest you ever had', then perhaps playtesting isn't the best of ideas for you.  They're not going to be passing out full working copies of all the rules they've done internally because if they did, who would buy the game?

Instead, they're testing changes on a pattern known only to them to guage our reactions to...something.  Critical hits, maybe.  Or material components.  Who knows?  And the fact that we don't know means that its a lot harder for actual trolls to throw in 'false' information.

Much like the scribes of old who would only be handed one out of every so many pages to copy so they didn't know what they were working on, we will see the bigger picture when it all comes together.  Until then, offer commentary on the little changes and take a deep breath.

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

I'll add my voice to the call for better critical his. The previous version (critical=max damage + regular die-roll ed damage) was prefect, I thought, giving a range of max dmg to double max damage. A critical should NEVER do less damage than a regular hit might have.

the old range was only max damage to double damage until the character got Deadly Strike, as the crit only allowed you to roll one extra damage die.

"Trying to run gritty gothic horror with 4e is like trying to cut down a tree with a hammer, likewise trying to run heroic fantasy with 1e is like trying to hammer a nail with a chainsaw."

 
 

 This is what i get when i hit the Quote button:  http://community.wizards.com/%23

 

  

Hinder is an action that work similar to Help in that it can influence a nearby creature's next attack or check by imposing disadvantage.  (How To Play PDF pg. 14)

I don't know if we got different packets or what. All I can find is "when you hinder a creature, describe the manner in which you do so". It doesn't say that it works like Help anywhere on my page - unless I'm missing something super obvious here.

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."

Its not, i was just saying it does because you do something that will impact a nearby creature's next attack roll or check and give it advantage or disadvantage.

The way into which you help or hinder a creature is not precisely described because it can be a wild variety of things depending on the situation at hand and you must come up with it. 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Hinder is an action, since it's under the "Actions in Combat" header.

Both Hinder and Help need more qualifiers. This is the reason that previous editions had "aid another" requiring a token attack roll or skill check versus a low DC. As it stands, it's an example of advantage bloat. All you need to do is hire a wimpy peasant to follow you around and help every one of your actions to get advantage. Make an attack? He'll throw sand in the demon's eyes. Break open a door? He'll give you a pat on the back. Recall lore? He can hold your books. By the rules, advantage for every one, no check required.
Yup, a handful of changes that make absolutely no sense, while completely ignoring the many things that need fixing. That's all this packet is. A complete disgrace that may have killed what little interest I ever had in D&DN.



If the introduction of minor rules changes 'kills what little interest you ever had', then perhaps playtesting isn't the best of ideas for you.  They're not going to be passing out full working copies of all the rules they've done internally because if they did, who would buy the game?

Instead, they're testing changes on a pattern known only to them to guage our reactions to...something.  Critical hits, maybe.  Or material components.  Who knows?  And the fact that we don't know means that its a lot harder for actual trolls to throw in 'false' information.

Much like the scribes of old who would only be handed one out of every so many pages to copy so they didn't know what they were working on, we will see the bigger picture when it all comes together.  Until then, offer commentary on the little changes and take a deep breath.




Almost this exact thought goes through my head about twice a minute while I read people's posts on these boards.  A number of people are constantly mad because "The things that need fixing are never addressed", while also crying out how mad they are about some things that were "obviously quick fixes".  Let the devs do their work, and comment on what they give you.
Yup, a handful of changes that make absolutely no sense, while completely ignoring the many things that need fixing. That's all this packet is. A complete disgrace that may have killed what little interest I ever had in D&DN.



If the introduction of minor rules changes 'kills what little interest you ever had', then perhaps playtesting isn't the best of ideas for you.  They're not going to be passing out full working copies of all the rules they've done internally because if they did, who would buy the game?

Instead, they're testing changes on a pattern known only to them to guage our reactions to...something.  Critical hits, maybe.  Or material components.  Who knows?  And the fact that we don't know means that its a lot harder for actual trolls to throw in 'false' information.

Much like the scribes of old who would only be handed one out of every so many pages to copy so they didn't know what they were working on, we will see the bigger picture when it all comes together.  Until then, offer commentary on the little changes and take a deep breath.




+1

Now, I'm not sure how I feel about crits. Going to see how my group likes it. I never added the extra die roll anyway. I just did max damage.

I skimmed through the spells and I do like what I saw. A lot of components. Not sure how the wizard will like it though when he runs out of bat turds and can't cast lol.

Short rest being an hour doesn't make a difference in actual play time for me. I either say, "You rest 10 minutes." Or I say, "You rest an hour." I like half HD being restored on a long rest because I'm more into brutal games. Though I'm tempted to just take HD away totally.

My friend said he thinks the dying rules are better. I don't know. They lowered the stabilize DC from 15 to 10, so it'll be easier to stabilize somebody really quick. But if you can't and they get hit by goblins...sucks to be them.
offer commentary on the little changes and take a deep breath.


Let the devs do their work, and comment on what they give you.

If all you see - every playtest packet - you feel is terrible, then it's simply an act of pure faith to go "everything the devs are showing me is terrible, but somehow they must have a good game somewhere that they aren't showing me". If you have faith in the game developers like that, more power to you.

I do not.

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."

offer commentary on the little changes and take a deep breath.


Let the devs do their work, and comment on what they give you.

If all you see - every playtest packet - you feel is terrible, then it's simply an act of pure faith to go "everything the devs are showing me is terrible, but somehow they must have a good game somewhere that they aren't showing me". If you have faith in the game developers like that, more power to you.

I do not.



Not only that, but they have a long history stretching back to the release of 3E that shows they make those kinds of mistakes left and right.

So forgive me if I don't believe everything they say...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
offer commentary on the little changes and take a deep breath.


Let the devs do their work, and comment on what they give you.

If all you see - every playtest packet - you feel is terrible, then it's simply an act of pure faith to go "everything the devs are showing me is terrible, but somehow they must have a good game somewhere that they aren't showing me". If you have faith in the game developers like that, more power to you.

I do not.



It sounds like you're saying that you've been dissapointed by more or less everyhting you've seen from Next so far.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.  If that is the case, I see why you don't have faith in the design process.  However, I don't think it invalidates the commentary put forth by anjelika and myself (not that I think that was your goal).

To be honest, I do have faith in the game developers to the point that I think they are trying to put out a game that most people will enjoy, and that they do listen to as much feedback as they can (or are allowed to) from playtesters.  But, I don't really need to have too much faith, because so far, I like where they are going with D&DN, despite a few major issues.

Something that has crossed my mind while browsing the forums here is that maybe the opinions of many of the playtesters here are in the minority of those they get feedback from.  The number of very active, very vocal members of these forums seems pretty low in comparison to the number of playtesters overall.  Just because there seems to be a few issues many here agree are big problems does not mean that is the prevalent opinion of playtesters as an overall group.

This all just food for thought.  Blacksheep, clearly you are a fan of the D&D game of one incarnation or another, and I truly hope that the end product of D&DN is something you'll enjoy.
2. Hinder. There are literally no real rules on this. I hope this is a placeholder, because currently I have no idea what sort of action this should take (can I do this as a free action?). While I'm sure a DM could adjudicate it in a somewhat worthwhile manner, this really doesn't help anybody by being spectacularly uninformative about the rules.

Hinder is an action that work similar to Help in that it can influence a nearby creature's next attack or check by imposing disadvantage.  (How To Play PDF pg. 14)




I see the new Hinder and Help actions to be some kind of milestones for the improvise action : here, you can make that kind of powerfull stuff with an impro action.

Concerning the critical hit rule... I don't know because I never quite liked the full damage in Next. I could be fine with a dial, from +1 die to full damage depending on the option you choose. We have tried the full damage option, now we test the +1 die. Tho, I would like if there was a little bonus in crits, not mandatorily damage, a small thing maybe tied to the type of damage done for instance - I will think about it.
It possible Critical Hit rules were downgraded because there'll be more use of wider crit range ie Superior Critical in Against The Slavelord Bestiary. 

Maxing out all damage, including Deadly Strike + 1 additional [W] was may be too much, but now simply 1 additional damage die feels too little. Perhaps somewhere in the middle?

On the bright side though, those that wanted spells to have Crit effects can rejoice since the new Critical Hit rules now work with spells having attack rolls.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

It possible Critical Hit rules were downgraded because there'll be more use of wider crit range ie Superior Critical in Against The Slavelord Bestiary. 

Maxing out all damage, including Deadly Strike + 1 additional [W] was may be too much, but now simply 1 additional damage die feels too little. Perhaps somewhere in the middle?

On the bright side though, those that wanted spells to have Crit effects can rejoice since the new Critical Hit rules now work with spells having attack rolls.



Yeah how about the first weapon die is maxed and you roll an additional weapon die but things like Deadly Strike are not maxed?

That would still feel epic, but not overpowered...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
It possible Critical Hit rules were downgraded because there'll be more use of wider crit range ie Superior Critical in Against The Slavelord Bestiary. 

Maxing out all damage, including Deadly Strike + 1 additional [W] was may be too much, but now simply 1 additional damage die feels too little. Perhaps somewhere in the middle?

On the bright side though, those that wanted spells to have Crit effects can rejoice since the new Critical Hit rules now work with spells having attack rolls.



Yeah how about the first weapon die is maxed and you roll an additional weapon die but things like Deadly Strike are not maxed?

That would still feel epic, but not overpowered...


Or you could go the other way.  Crit = Instant Death (direct shot to the heart or brain, beheading, etc as befits weapon), but Monsters can't crit and spells/cantrips can't crit

"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice."
On Worldbuilding - On Crafting Aliens - Pillars of Art and Flavor - Simulationism, Narritivism, and Gamism - Shub-Niggurath in D&D
THE COALITION WAR GAME -Phyrexian Chief Praetor
Round 1: (4-1-2, 1 kill)
Round 2: (16-8-2, 4 kills)
Round 3: (18-9-2, 1 kill)
Round 4: (22-10-0, 2 kills)
Round 5: (56-16-3, 9 kills)
Round 6: (8-7-1)

Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920

I agree with most of the points, you made though, there is one small issue with this one:

5. Dying. Hands down, 3 kindergartners punching you for 1hp of damage is more deadly to an unconscious victim than a giant with a waraxe. This also looks like a terrible comprimise in which everybody loses.



I think the damage rule is mostly for AoE attacks since anyone with a melee attack acn just run a Coup de Grace and insta-kill a person at 0 hp. The damage causing a death save fail is more if you get caught in a fireball or something similar, and I think that's more or less okay.

I actually wasn't too disappointed with the new death rules. It's probably a good move in a game where they want recurring characters. The only thing I think they need to do now is get rid of bringing unconsicous people back to combat. So long as they have retarded spells like Spare the Dying (which is just cure minor wounds with a new name), They guarantee that monsters will be liberally using Coup De grace on dropped PCs.




Is it an oversight that the "coup de grâce" rule have disapeared? Or is it to be understand that in order to kill someone unconscious you have to spend between 6 and 18 secondes (between one and three actions)? I could totally live with that if this is the intent, but it needs some clarity.

Btw, I like the way "knock out" is written. Now you can totally knock out PCs easily with NPC without resorting to fiat or extremely tricky rules.

I would love that "any" healing don't wake up an unconscious character, but I guess I'll have to just houserule that.
I'll add my voice to the call for better critical his. The previous version (critical=max damage + regular die-roll ed damage) was prefect, I thought, giving a range of max dmg to double max damage. A critical should NEVER do less damage than a regular hit might have.


I wholeheartedly agree.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

I think the current downplayed crit rules will work perfectly with a wounds module but they should also have modules for meatier crtis that just do more damage too.  Maximising the additional damage die works too but with a wounds system I don't think it's needed.
Is it an oversight that the "coup de grâce" rule have disapeared?



They haven't disappeared. Check page 13 on How to Play

Is it an oversight that the "coup de grâce" rule have disapeared?



They haven't disappeared. Check page 13 on How to Play




Neat! Thank you, it was an oversight... but by me

I like the simple rule btw - two attacks needed to kill a sleeping creature is kind of gamist, but in the heat of a combat it feels balanced. Let's test that.
It possible Critical Hit rules were downgraded because there'll be more use of wider crit range ie Superior Critical in Against The Slavelord Bestiary. 

Maxing out all damage, including Deadly Strike + 1 additional [W] was may be too much, but now simply 1 additional damage die feels too little. Perhaps somewhere in the middle?

On the bright side though, those that wanted spells to have Crit effects can rejoice since the new Critical Hit rules now work with spells having attack rolls.



Yeah how about the first weapon die is maxed and you roll an additional weapon die but things like Deadly Strike are not maxed?

That would still feel epic, but not overpowered...

That would be a little better yeah.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

The main challenge that I have seen over the last year is that it would appear that nobody at WotC has ever run a playtest before.  Maybe they just need a project manager.  Whatever the case, I have worked in the gaming industry and this whole playtest experience has been a mess.  I certainly cannot see what is going on inside WotC over the past year, but the public interaction has been scattered and disheveled, to use polite language.

Maybe WotC does have all of their ducks in a row and maybe they have had a master project plan from the beginning, but it sure as **** doesn't seem like it from where I've been sitting for the last year.
Maybe WotC does have all of their ducks in a row and maybe they have had a master project plan from the beginning, but it sure as **** doesn't seem like it from where I've been sitting for the last year.

From everything that I have seen, the only term that comes to my mind is "charlie foxtrot".

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."