R/B Boggart the Joint Deck

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I reckon everybody needs a good explodey goblin deck, so that's what I've been working on this week.

I'm fairly pleased with it at the moment, but there's room for improvement, so here's what I have:



I'm presently wondering whether to go to four Warren Weirdings, three Boggart Senanigans, and whether to add a Warren Pilferers to save Wort if she's destroyed.

I'm restricted to cards under £2 each.

What you reckon, guys?
Seems kinda slow for a gobs deck. Is the goal speed or not?

If you can find replacements for warren instigator and goblin guide, I would go a little more all out...

4x goblin bushwhacker
4x legion loyalist
4x goblin wardriver
4x goblin chieftain

4x goblin grenade
4x lightning bolt
4x dangerous wager
4x thunderous wrath

22x mountain

Leaves 6 slots open (i run 4 guide and 2 warren instigators). If u go old skool, goblin war strike ain't bad.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/12.jpg)

I guess that, primarily, the goal is fun. For me, in this case, that comes in the form of sacrificey flavour. I want suicidal goblins with explosives, spikes, and swords strapped to them; getting torn in half to make new goblins; smashed to pulps to make splash weapons; or destroyed for spare parts. So that's what I'm after, really.

It has had turn five wins, by the way, so it isn't necessarily a slow deck, but it certainly has a long-game plan. It's a nice feature of burn, that it can function as both aggro and control.
Well, def no excuse for running 3 and not 4 grenades

Morbid is your friend here. brimestone volley for reach and tragic slip for removal.

More reach in general. I've seen your deck get down to the last few points of life and just lose steam. A simple lightning bolt could have worked.
Another mudbutton torchrunner for sure. Incidentally, postmortem lunge and he would like to play games

Cut arms dealer. No reach=no good.

Shennanigans is too expensive and too slow. blood artist is strictly better here.

Matron could just be dig, but it does give u more sac targets.

Prospector+battle hymn would really like to see a banefire. With an artist out, or even shennanigans, it's GG.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/12.jpg)

Yeah, I guess you're right about the grenades. The morbid options are probably good ideas too. Possibly Tragic Slip for the sideboard.

I don't know what you're thinking about, but I've only played the deck twice on here, and it failed spectacularly on both occasions, due to spectacularly bad draws. It never got my opponent down to just a few life. Obviously, Lightning Bolt is awesome in practically any red deck, but I tend to steer away from those sorts of cards. I like things that fit into specific decks and themes, instead. I'm sure I shoot myself in the foot in terms of power, but I'm a sucker for flavour.

Another Torchrunner? I do like them, but what do I remove?

I dunno if I'd say that Blood Artist is strictly better than Shenanigans. It's far more fragile, it isn't tutorable with Matron, and it isn't recurrable with Wort.

I quite like Arms Dealer, but I could cut it down to one, since Matron can find him if I need him.

Yeah, Banefire and Battle Hymn would work nicely. I might try and fit it in.
I say artist is better because of the extort effect. It's more fragile, but ONLY if they point removal at it. That gives you more time to build up your other doods and cause all sorts of damage.

If you don't want to add stuff for flavor, that's fine, but you gotta get more reach in there. Arms dealer just isn't worth it. The mana investment is too high, and you have plenty of other sac outlets.

Really bad draws are a part of magic as you know, but with some superior draw options than your rather flimsy tutor package, you should be able to loot your way out in a turn or 2. 4 lands in a row? faithless looting sure wouldn't mind pitching extras.

On the land note, I think going for a mid-range end game is a bad plan. I'd prob cut 1-2 land and lose the high end buddies like seige gang and warren weirding -tho I must say it's a great card, I think 3 is about the highest CMC id be willing to go with, or at least no more than four 4 drops.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/12.jpg)

Since you have lot's of creatures dieing, how about adding some Hissing Iguanar?
I would reccomend removing the arm's dealers for him.


"The clown never dies" Helpful stuff:
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to save Wort if she's destroyed

If anything, I'd consider Boggart Birth Rite for that slot.


The morbid options are probably good ideas too

In that vein, I would consider Mogg Fanatic and Ember Hauler as enablers for both Morbid and Boggart Shenanigans and general Reach providers.
In a similar vein, have you considerd KnuckleBone Witch?

Another Torchrunner? I do like them, but what do I remove?

I personally would cut Weirding Shaman.

but with some superior draw options than your rather flimsy tutor package, you should be able to loot your way out in a turn

What about Goblin Recruiter? Especially if "Tr0users" reduces the overall CMC of the deck.

warren weirding -tho I must say it's a great card

I feel that with an emphasis on Recursion (via Wort, Boggart Auntie and maybe Boggart Birth Rite), and Morbid (like Tragic Slip and BrimStone Volley) it could be good, but I agree that it is being underutilized.

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I must confess that I am overwhelmed and confused by the vast number of suggestions for additions, and lack of advice concerning what they should replace.

I'm gonna list them in order to have them together in one post, but also in the hope that somebody will maybe help me organise this lot. 

List of suggestions for inclusion so far:
Brimstone Volley
Tragic Slip
Lightning Bolt
Postmortem Lunge
Blood Artist/Hissing Iguana (instead of Boggart Shenanigans, although, due to neither of them being goblins, they would need to be four-ofs)
Battle Hymn
Banefire
1 more Goblin Grenade
1 more Mudbutton Torchrunner
Faithless Looting
Mogg Fanatic
Ember Hauler
Knucklebone Witch
Goblin Recruiter (instead of Goblin Matron)
Boggart Birth Rite

List of suggestions for removal so far:
Arms Dealer
Boggart Shenanigans
Siege-Gang Commander
Warren Weirding
Weirding Shaman

You see the eye-watering nature of the task. Before AW's post arrived, I tried making a mono-red thing based on jnp's Prospector/Battle Hymn/Banefire suggestion, using GLL's Hissing Iguana suggestion. It's faster than my deck when it works, but, as tends to be the way, if it doesn't then it runs out of steam easily. It's also more difficult to find the things I need when I need them, because there are more cards that I can't tutor for than there were before. Prospector and Hymn, with Iguana and Banefire are my big hitters, but there's only one that I can tutor. Faithless Looting helps weed out excess land, but I feel that the deck needs to be more integrated in order to work reliably.

So here's that one:



This was cobbled together pretty quickly, just trying to incorporate the suggestions I'd been given, but, as you can see, I didn't come close to fitting them all in. As I say, it feels like there's a missing link somewhere. There are quite a few cards that I only need at certain times (once I've built up plenty of goblins, and, preferably, got an iguana into play, but which are, at the same time, necessary in each game.

So AW agrees that I should be using morbid spells, and that seems logical,and he thinks I should use some recursion, and that seems logical too. It sounds like some combination of both decks might work best, but what do I take from each? How do I make room for some morbid stuff? Obviously, I can't use all the ideas that are here. There have been more suggestions from you guys alone than you could fit into one deck, so which ones do you think I should be focusing on, and how can I integrate them properly? I hope somebody can help me with this, because I started this thread thinking that maybe I just needed a few tweaks here and there, and now I feel all at sea.
I've done some more work. The deck obviously needs black recursion, so I've put that back in. I've also got Brimstone Volley, Goblin Recruiter (and a Goblin Ringleader), and Blood Artist. The only trouble is that now I'm at 71 cards.



20 lands

So I'm stuck now. What are the weak points? Should the Banefire/Battle Hymn finisher really be there? If so, should I use some sort of Goblin Warrens style mana sink? Should I have one either way?  Should I have more Dragon Fodder style spells? What on earth, basically, should I do?

Edit: One more question. Goblin Ringleader, or Sensation Gorger?
I must confess that I am overwhelmed and confused by the vast number of suggestions for additions, and lack of advice concerning what they should replace

I can appreciate that. I have been endlessly tinkering with a similar deck for months (here is what I posted on these Forums about it).

I'll post its current form here:


So AW agrees that I should be using morbid spells, and that seems logical,and he thinks I should use some recursion, and that seems logical too

It's noteworthy that, if you decide to emphasize recursion, TarFire can be recurred with Boggart Birth Rite and Wort, Boggart Auntie - while it is less powerful Burn than BrimStone Volley it can be played repeatedly. The same is true for Nameless Inversion vs. Tragic Slip - Nameless Inversion can be played repeatedly, but is both less powerful and more expensive than the alternative. Warren Weirding can be recurred in a similar fashion.
Ultimately, the recursive cards positively impact the long game, at the expense of explosivity in the short game.
You could consider something like:
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2 Goblin Grenade
4 TarFire
4 NameLess Inversion
+ 2 Wort, Boggart Auntie
+ 4 Boggart Birth Rite

If you focus on a recursion centered list. Alternatively, Nameless Inversion could be Warren Weirding.

or 

4 Goblin War Strike
4 Goblin Grenade
2 BrimStone Volley
+ 1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

If you focus on sheer explosivity.


As I say, it feels like there's a missing link somewhere

In regards to the :R: deck you posted which emphasizes speed: I would remove 2 Goblin Warrens for 2 more Goblin War Strike, and I would switch Goblin Matron for Goblin Recruiter (who if played later in the game, should help ensure you always have something to play).
While slightly out of your budget, I think High Market would be good in that list.
Have you considered adding 1 Keldon Necropolis for sheer funsies?

It sounds like some combination of both decks might work best, but what do I take from each?

Whatever you want, basically. I like Recursion, it sounds like you like(d) explosivity, and it sounds like "jnp5021" likes the prospect of reach. You could focus on explosivity and reach (with recursion to assist in the longer games), or you could focus on recursion repeatedly enabling reach (at the expense of explosivity).

I hope somebody can help me with this, because I started this thread thinking that maybe I just needed a few tweaks here and there, and now I feel all at sea.

It seems like, over the course of this thread, you've built a handful of decks - which do you most enjoy playing with? I think that answering the question of "which do I like the most" will go a long way towards addressing the large volume of suggestions.

Should the Banefire/Battle Hymn finisher really be there?

In regards to the Battle Hymn + BaneFire finisher - I think it could be worthwhile if you build around Skirk Prospector (also good with Goblin Arsonist and Mudbutton TorchRunner) as a means of generating (even more) mana. Possibly within a creature base like:


Edit: One more question. Goblin Ringleader, or Sensation Gorger?

I prefer Goblin RingLeader. Although, in a fast list, I think that Sensation Gorger could be interesting (especially if augemented with things like Haunted Fengraf and the non-Budget Volrath's StrongHold).

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I made a deck of this similar theme a long time ago that led to it being only a few times due to the way it could interact and it was sometimes frowned upon by my casual playgroup. I sold it off a long time ago, but if I had it now, it would probably look like this:

Lands: 23
4 Auntie's Hovel
14 Mountain
5 Swamp

Creatures: 21
4 Goblin Arsonist
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Mudbutton Torchrunner
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege Gang Commander
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician

Spells: 14
4 Goblin Grenade
4 Tarfire
3 Warren Weirding
3 Boggart Birth Rite

Enchantment: 2
2 Goblin Bombardment

I've also played around with Tar Pitcher in the list and while weak in tourney play could be quite nasty in different casual playgroups.

 Feel free to use it for ideas.
My Trade Thread Control capabilities are in all the colors. The difference is in the way they say no.
I'm surprised Facevaulter hasn't been brought up yet.  He seems great for the speedier, more aggro-centric versions of this list, espeically with Knucklebone Witch involved.

Festering Goblin might be a good replacement for something like Goblin Arsonist, though he doesn't provide reach in the same way :/

Nameless Inversion would work with Wort and Boggart Birthright similarly to Tarfire.  Though, again, it doesn't have the same reach, you could replace one of your removal spells like Brimstone Volley with it to speed things up a bit.

oh, and I'm surprised Lightning Crafter hasn't been mentioned yet.  It's at the top of your curve, but Lightning Bolt on legs is pretty powerful 
Thanks for breaking all that down for me, AW, it was a huge help! I've figured that I have about three conceivable decks here, all using the same core stuff. I haven't figured out which I want to go with yet - I guess I'll just keep testing them until one begins to stand out as a favourite.

I'm actually very much a long-game player, so the one using Wort and her graveyard ability tends to naturally appeal to me, although I sometimes feel like the rest of the deck wants to move faster. It also might be nice to have a fast deck available to me. It'll probably come down to which one has the best flavour, really.

Hey EP! I'm not very keen on Facevaulter or Knucklebone, because I don't have any way of reliably pushing them through defenses. I prefer Arsonist to Festering Goblin here. I prefer to have the reach.

Lightning Crafter doesn't really fit my suicidal goblins theme, particularly. It's obviously very good, but I don't think this is the deck for it.

Cheers guys! I'll probably post an updated list when I've decided which one I like best. 
I would recommend Sensation Gorger since it'll be cheaper and you're not running Lackey. Knucklbone Witch could get very big here. I would run her at 4, easily.
Generally, in a goblin deck, you want to kill the opponent before they have a chance to stabilize.  This means that creatures or spells at cost 3 would probably be the highest you want to go on anything.  That means the ability on Weirding Shaman is too expensive for what it does.  I would forget about "recursion" and just focus on low-cost, high value cards in both red and black with your goblin theme.  Sensation Gorger was a great suggestion, as it helps to refill your hand and screws with theirs.

If you can't win by turn 5 with a goblin deck, though, you will generally fail.  Goblin Chieftain combined with Krenko, Goblin Boss isn't half bad, but then again Krenko costs 4.
Actually, Legacy goblins can stabilize itself and grind out the game if necesary. You've got a nice little toolbox of goblins in Goblin Matron, Wort, Boggart Auntie, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, and Lightning Crafter. Matron can pull any of those goblins. Afterward you can Champion her for Lightning Crafter (when she comes back in, you get her effect again). Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker lets you double up on Goblin Chieftain, Siege-Gang Commander, Goblin Chieftain, or Goblin Piledriver. Wort, Boggart Auntie turns Gemplam Incinerator into superb spot removal for goblins.


As for the Boggart theme, a few more goblins to consider:


Boar Tusk Legionnaire and Boggart Ram-Gang. Very offensive for your deck. You can even aim for Wort, Boggart Auntie/Goblin Grenade/Knucklebone Witch interaction. I would recommend Gempalm Incinerator at 3 for spot removal and card draw. Goblins also have Pyreheart Wolf-esque effects in the form of Goblin War Drums and Goblin War Cry.


Foundry Street Denizen 
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Goblin Wardriver
Mogg War Marshal 
3 Goblin Matron 
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie


4 Goblin Grenade
2 Dismember 
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin War Cry or Goblin War Drums       

4 Teetering Peaks
3 Smoldering Spires
X Mountain


This deck wants to use Foundry Street Denizen like a miniature Goblin Piledriver. You can even try Sandstone Needle, , or Crystal Vein in the lands with 1-2 Siege-Gang Commander in the mainboard. In Legacy, I've seen goblins running Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors, both of which are too pricey for your deck.


By all means, work in Krenko, Mob Boss, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, and Lightning Crafter, and Sensation Gorger. You can 1-of them with the Matrons. I prefer having Goblin Lackey and AEther Vial to reliably cast them, however.             
           
Well, since this thread's reappeared, I'll put up my current list up.



So, I don't really agree with you GWARAndy. I don't think a goblin deck has to be super aggro, and I don't think they necessarily fail is pushed beyond turn five. This deck can quite often get a win on turn five, by the way, but I'm naturally a slow, long-game player, and even in my faster decks I like to include some sort of contingency plan so that things don't just fizzle out if I don't get a fast win. Goblins actually seem pretty good at keeping up a presence. Recruiter and Ringleader don't just refill my hand, but refill it with the goblins of my choice, which usually includes Auntie Wort, who also helps to keep the pressure on. So I'm able to pull up the single I need - In most cases, Chirurgeon basically allows me to choose the victims if any of my goblins would die; Fodder Launch and Shenanigans can both act as effective finishers; Commander can help me recover after a board wipe, etc.

I tried Sensation Gorger, but it proved too awkward and clunky. Having to wait for the next upkeep before its effect triggered is a pain, and he basically becomes a big target if Recruiter hits/has hit the table. Ringleader's a one-time effect, but at least it's immediate. Counters and discard are more or less the only ways to stop it. Shame really, Gorger's such an amusing, cute little freak.

Kiki-Jiki and Krenko are too expensive for me - I'm on a £2 per card budget.

I don't really feel that Chieftain and similar cards really fit my theme of goblins as comic little pawns - their main purpose is to be blown up or chopped into little bits by me, rather than to inflict combat damage, so boosting them doesn't really help me that much. I'm not convinced by Knucklebone Witch for the same reason - the deck isn't really geared towards dealing combat damage, so I don't really feel like it would fit.

Lightning Crafter is obviously awesome, as I've said, and if I wasn't as much of a slave to my theme then I'd probably put it in, as I have a few knocking about somewhere, but it doesn't have that goblin sacrifice element that I want. If its effect had a sacrifice clause, and dealt four damage, or something, then it would be in there like a shot.

Gempalm Incinerator is the most tempting suggestion for me, and could possibly fit in place of Tarfire. It's unfortunate that he can't deal direct damage to players, but that would be pretty nuts, I suppose. It's likely that he'll be able to deal a fair bit more damage, and the card draw's nice... I reckon I'll give him a try.
Does Ember Hauler fit with your aesthetic? If so, I'd run it over Torch Runner. There's lots of 3/4 mana boggarts that work well in this deck. Aside from Lighting Crafter, there's also Murderous Redcap. You can Champion him and sting creatures when he comes back into play.  There must be a Champion boggart from Lorwyn that you could add to the top end.
Ember Hauler fits the theme fine, and it has some fun flavour, but the big benefit that Torchrunner has is that I can sacrifice it to one of my many other sac engines to deal the three damage, and also get a second benefit from the engine. Rather than having to choose between making two goblins with Warren Weirding or dealing damage, I can get both effects at once.

I tried to work Redcap in initially, but just couldn't find room for it. To be honest, if I was going to use one of the champions, it would be Lightning Crafter. Boggart Mob relies too much on combat for this deck, and is a bit on the win-more side, anyway.
I just found Clickslither. I'm suffering the agony of choice. What do people make of it? Worth making room for? If so, what do you think should go?
Clickslither is kinda like Voracious Dragon IMO.  Generally win-more but sometimes it has utility.  At the 4 CMC slot I'd rather run Lightning Crafter than Clickslither - especially since your deck splashes black so the might be a problem at times - but mainly because he provides more reach (Lightning bolt on a stick is pretty powerful) and lets you re-use EtB abilities like those of your Ringleaders, recruiters, war marshals and Seige-gangs (which is especially easy since you have so many sack outlets)
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