Imagining subclasses

Fighter subclasses:


  • Warrior (the Basic Fighter)

  • Knight

  • Gladiator

  • Duelist

  • Warlord

  • Samurai

  • others, such as Cavalier


Magic-User subclasses ("Mage" for short):  (In this way, the various iterations of names for "wizard" are given new life: BECMI and 1e "Magic-User", the 2e "Wizard Group" and "Mage (generalist) Class", and the 3e and 4e Wizard class.)


  • Wizard (the Basic Mage)

  • Illusionist

  • Sorcerer

  • Warlock

  • Enchanter

  • Necromancer

  • Diviner

  • Transmuter

  • Abjurer

  • Evoker

  • Wild Mage

  • others, such as Wu-jen and Sha'ir


Rogue subclasses:


  • Thief (the Basic Rogue)

  • Assassin

  • Acrobat

  • Scout

  • Vagabond

  • A subclass for each Playtest scheme? Treasure Hunter? Rake? (Need to distinguish Rogue Trickster from Cleric Trickster.)

  • others, such as Ninja and Pirate!


Cleric subclasses: (I suggest that the Playtest deity names become the subclass names)


  • Lifegiver (the Basic Cleric)

  • Lightbringer

  • Protector

  • Trickster

  • Warbringer

  • a Cleric subclass for each major domain of spells or divine portfolio


Paladin subclasses: (The 2e Red Steel setting has a name for "specialty paladins": Defender. But that name has different connotations since the 3e Dwarven Defender and 4e Defender role. If "Defender" or "Champion" were used as the class-name, then "Paladin" could be kept as the name for the standard LG subclass)


  • Honorbound (the Standard LG Paladin; the name is from the "Paladin of Honor" and Mystara's "Honorbound")

  • Warden (=Mystara's "Druidic Knight")

  • Anti-Paladin (a.k.a. Blackguard)

  • other Variant Paladins


Ranger subclasses: A distinct name for each of the Playtest options, such as Giantslayer.

Druid subclasses: A distinct name for each of the Playtest options.

Monk subclasses:


  • Initiate of Mercy

  • Initiate of the Phoenix

  • Initiate of Stone's Endurance

  • Initiate of the Four Storms 



Barbarian subclasses: ?
Bard subclasses: ?


Even though in earlier editions, some classes were subclasses of others (Paladin and Ranger were Fighter subclasses), make these ten the Standard Classes. Except for Psion, might not need to make anymore Classes.



What about a Gish?

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

What about a Gish?

Maybe!
Class
--Subclass
    -Build

     Fighter
--
Warrior
     - Archer (ranged)
     - Soldier (1H melee)
-- Knight
     - Cavalier (fights on horseback)
     - Dragoon (Samurai)
-- Slayer
     - Vanguard (2H melee)
     - Arbelestier (ranged)
-- Duelist
     - Swashbuckler (Rogue/fighter)
     - Tempest (TW Fighter)
--Warlord
     - Marshal (Inspiring leader)
     - Commander (martial controller)
 
     Cleric
-- Priest
     - Theurge (divine wizard)
     - Invoker (direct link to a god)
-- Templar
     - Avenger (Neutral)
     - Paladin (Good)
     - Blackguard (Evil)
    
     Mage
-- Wizard
     - Arcanist (Jack of all trades)
     - Specialist (pick a school)
-- Sorcerer
     - Elementalist (conduit of raw arcane energy)
     - Spellblade (Gish class)
-- Witch
     - Seer (classical "witch")
     - Warlock (Bargains with higher powers)
-- Artificer
     - Tinker Artificer
     - Battle Engineer

     Rogue
-- Thief
     - Acrobat (sneaky rogue)
     - Scoundrel (brutal rogue)
-- Assassin
     - Hexblade (Ninja)
     - Sniper (ranged assassin)
-- Monk
     - Martial Artist
     - Mystic Monk
-- Bard
     - Skald (sings)
     - Minstrel (plays instuments)

     Totemist
-- Druid
     - Skinwalker (beast form)
     - Sentinel (humanoid)
-- Barbarian
     - Berserker (raging barbarian)
     - Warden (defender barbarian)
-- Shaman
     - Panther Shaman (buffer)
     - Bear Shaman (healer)
-- Ranger
     - Beastlord (TWF Ranger)
     - Huntsmen (Archer)

     Psionicist
-- Psion
     - Telekeneticist
     - Telepath
-- Warmind
     - Psychic Warrior (beefy warrior)
     - Soulknife (stealthy warrior)
-- Empath
     - Wilder (psionic sorcerer)
     - Ardent (what the 4e Ardent should have been)
Highly doubt that there will be "sub-builds" within subclasses, outside of personalised spell and feat choices.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

I think of subclass, build and kit as all kind of the same thing in spirit, I think certain classes should be broken up but on a case by case basis




  • Fighter: I don't think fighter should have sub-classes per say, I think the fighter class should be so versatile and customizable that you can really play any kind of fighter. There are too many kinds of martial soldiers and warriors to split up into a hand-full of fighter packages. I think it should be able to cover Samurai, Brawler, Swashbuckler, Tactician (tactical warlord) and all that but only because of it's free-form nature.



  • Wizard: It has it's schools and universalist, I think those are perfect. In my mind there shouldn't be multiple types of Wizards, there should just be Wizards who've studied different majors, they think and value things differently but they're all regarded as Wizards.



  • Rogue: They seem to have re-branded  the Rogue as the Skill using class or the scheming class, I would like for Rogues to have sneak attack dice become something more like expertise dice (i like the name Scheme Dice) so that way they can be more than just sneaky surprise attackers; backstab, isolating strike, acrobatic strike would be some ways of getting to use scheme dice, I would like to see builds that are about being more clever than sneaky, a sort of Noble build for granting scheme dice to allies (lazy warlord) and also maybe a Alchemist and Trapmaker build that use the dice in very creative ways. I think there's tons of subclasses you could think of with scheme dice being the main mechanic.


With Rogue offering the techie archetype, the Artificer class could be covered fairly well IMO, but I only know the Artificer from 4E.


  • Cleric: I like the different builds being based on deity aspects but I do think Weapons and armor proficiency and deadly strike should be chosen separately from deity choice; I don't see why worshiping a death god should define what my tactical approach to combat is, no reason IMO that a death cleric couldn't be more like an Invoker tactics wise. This would free up a Invoker build to have their pick of deities.



  • Barbarian: I think for the most part the Barbarian should be a simple enough class that wouldn't need sub-classes, newer and more casual players love Barbarians because of how fool proof they are, the statement "I'm a Barbarian!" should tell you all you need to know about that character. basically IMO even though it's a specific archetype it's a beloved one with a unique playstyle that's charm comes from its narrower scope.



  • Bard: With the rogue being the new skill using class, the bard IMO should become less of a trickster jack of all trades and become more of an adventurer poet, empowered by their passion and with a gift for sharing that potency with others. I enjoyed the mechanical concept for the esentials Bard with it's abilities all focused around the Bard's aura. For the Bard's subclasses I would like to see are Skald (inspiring warlord), Virtuoso and Ardent.


Yes I think the Warlord should be split up between Fighter, Bard, Rogue and feats.



  • Druid: I feel like the druid has always been torn between two archetypes; the shapeshifting warrior and the shamanistic caster. I think the druid should be focused on shapeshifting and have about the same casting ability of rangers and paladins, give them their own XD called Wildshape Dice that can be arranged and used for different aspects of your form; this would make it more abstract and players could really turn into whatever they want and it wouldn't be about unlocking whatever the best shape is at higher levels. I could imagine some different builds for gaining Fey traits, elemental, shadow, swarm maybe one dedicated to lycanthopy.


As for the Shaman or the caster druid, I would think Cleric could cover that with a primal Cleric build


  • Monk: I think the way that monk is set up currently adequately allows for the kind of subclasses I would want to see. The class and subclasses should ultimately lend themselves to players looking for those iconic cinematic playstyles. Though if the monk could encompass more than just martial arts/melee combat, that would be cool to see a kind of telekinesis or flying dagger build or an elemental slinging Shugenja as a monk build.


As for the Psion, I think between enchanter, illusionist, clerics of mind/love/madness/fear/tyranny and possible blaster monks, you could make as much of a psion as should ever be in a fantasy setting IMO.



  • Paladin: Paladin offer players a built-in identity and background if they want it, so it's subclasses should reflect that. I like that Warden and Blackguard have become Paladin builds, I think this the perfect home for Avenger as the zealous wet-works subclass.




  • Ranger: I love how the Ranger has been re-branded as *the slayer* with his different tactical bonuses for hunting their chosen prey; expanding the idea of builds being based on prey, I would like to see Assassin become a ranger build that focuses on taking down one target with as little fighting as possible. Also Witch Hunter just begs to be the anti caster build for rangers.




  • Sorcerer: I think the sorcerer should be a lot less like Wizards than they were in 3e, they shouldn't be about collecting spells, they should be about harnessing their raw power. I think they should have XD called Power Dice that can be used on the selected non-spell magic abilities; There would be a list of simple base powers both melee and ranged. The subclasses would be for the ways of using the dice to augment powers; Dragon scion can expend dice to add ongoing fire damage and turn powers into cones or get a extra claw attack, Hexblades can draw upon their cursed blood to add all kinds of debuffs to their attacks, Wilders can expend dice to add random effects to attacks.


I think Sorcerer and Warlock should be like the other one was in 3e if that makes sense, Warlock should become more about doing what the wizard does but doing it the easier more spontanious way and Sorcerer should be the one who has simple powers that can be augmented.



  • Warlock: I think they should become a heavy casting class the does spells more spontaneously but maybe has less control over what spells they learn, basically for players who want to be spell casters but without as much homework. Instead of dividing them along schools of magic they would have their choice of patron; fey, infernal, underdark and so on and they would grant abilities and bonuses to using certain kinds of spells.





Bard


  • Minstrel, quintessential

  • Skald, leans toward fighter

  • Cantor, leans toward cleric

  • Gallant, leans toward rogue

  • Virtuoso, leans toward wizard


 

Danny

Today I was thinking about Swordmage and if between Bard, Sorcerer, and multiclassing would the class be well covered, but I felt like the swordmage somewhat had the identity of a brainy arcane protector that would want to see preserved. This got me thinking about Paladin and how we have the different knight archetypes; white knight, black knight, green knight and I suggested Avenger as the grey knight

The idea of a Blue knight came to me as a sort of scholarlly gentlemen mage knight. It made me think of the Azorius Senate, the Paladin of Mystra from Icewind dale 2, also Sir Bedevere the Wise popped into my head as a funny example of their personallity

Some imagery:


I see them playing a lot of the same roles swordmage did 4E.
 
Highly doubt that there will be "sub-builds" within subclasses, outside of personalised spell and feat choices.

Subclasses themsevles are essentially just a wrapper applied to a group of options, thus a sub-subclass would just be wrappers inside that wrapper.

Concepting the entire class structure as boxes inside of boxes would keep things organized, and quite possibly avoid shenanigans.

Concepting the entire class structure as boxes inside of boxes would keep things organized, and quite possibly avoid shenanigans.

I would not opposed this approach.

Danny

Concepting the entire class structure as boxes inside of boxes would keep things organized, and quite possibly avoid shenanigans.

I would not opposed this approach.



I agree it nice in some cases, you just have to be careful not to get caught up in "the grid".

in 4E there was somewhat a box in box structure.

within each power source there was role, within that the class, within that the subclasses. People wanted to put boxes where there didnt need to be and we got predictable and contrived classes like Battlemind that were just there to fill the grid. and don't get me started on Martial Controllers (which was one of the classes in the post that started this off topic)

IMO conforming all the classes to one structure leads to grid fevor and I think if not done right it can alienate certain playstyles.
My wishlist:

Fighter - Class
Rogue - Class
Warlord - Subclass of Fighter
Wizard - Class
Warlock - Series of Spell giving prestige classes (You could have a Blackguard Infernal Pact Warlock or a Feypact wizard, you would get a free familiar and a restricted set of spells)
Ranger - Class
Barbarian - Class
Druid - Class
Shaman - Perhaps it's own class, possibly even spell casting barbarian subclass (weird but might work)
Bard - Class
Swordmage - Class
Warden - Subclass of Paladin
Barbarian - Class
Seeker - Prestige Class with synergy for Rangers, Archer Fighters, Rogues, etc.
Runepriest - Swap out deity feature for access to Rune Feats
Artificer - Class of it's own, Arcane class without spells though, all devices, traps, potions, and magic items
Blackguard - Subclass of Paladin
Vampire - Specialty or Prestige Class
Sha'ir - Elementalist Subclass of Wizard
Witch - Subclass of Wizard
Hexblade - Weapon user option within the aforementioned a Warlock Prestige Class
Monk - It's own class
Ardent - The caster "Wild Talent" prestige class, grants psychic healing and limited thought reading
Psion - It's own class
Battlemind - Melee "Wild Talent" prestige class
Assasin - a) Urban Ragner, B) prestige class for Rangers, Rogues, and Monks, c) It's own class cause it always seems there is a demand for it
Avenger - Divine Slayer prestige class for Rangers, Rogues, and Monks
Invoker - Godspark prestige class
Sorcerer - Bloodline prestige class giving Arcane power (A dragon blooded Fighter sorcerer, or a Wild Magic Trickster Cleric Sorcerer)

Summoner Casters, Protector and Sentinel Druids, Beast Ranger, Shaman spirit Companions etc. Would all be part of the Henchmen and Allies rules module, along with Necromancers and Fighter's with followers
Witch - Subclass of Wizard

I'm hoping to see the witch as a subclass of druid, myself.

Danny

I posted this concept in another thread...

There's really only two aspects to this game when it comes to the area that might be loosely defined as 'conflict' or 'problem solving'.


Physical Activity and Spell Casting.

You could almost break all the 'Classes' and/or 'Sub-Classes' down into one or both of these two disciplines.


Classid Wizard - almost all Spell Casting - almost no Physical Activity.

Barbarian - Almost all Physical Activity - no Spell Casting except as it might pertain to potions or magic items.

I always imagined a system where a Player Character wasn't a member of a particular Class or Sub-Class per se... You'd get so many 'build points' and could construct what ever character you wanted. If you wanted a 'Wizard' put all your resources into Ingelligence and Wisdom. Take Feats and Skills that supported learning and casting Spells. Specialties that gave you access to 'Lore' concerning your focus... Lore of the Elemental Plane for example.

If you think about it, the Classic Cleric is just a combination of a Fighter and Magic User who has selected spells and abilities that have a 'flavor' unique to their particular vision of the Cleric. 

Rogue/Thief - a figher that specializes in certain stealth related combat techniques along with some special skills that support some sort of 'roguish' activity. Catburgler - Acrobatics and Climbing, Break-in Artist - Disarm Traps and Pick Locks, Sneak Theif - Move in Shadows, Silent Movement.


I think you could come up with a system that allows a player to build whatever vision they had for their character. By making it cheaper to add or improve a skill/feat in a given 'tree' than to select a skill from a different 'branch' and by setting up prerequisites for more effective abilities, you could coax a player into staying within a particular conceptual boundry...

                        
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />I always imagined a system where a Player Character wasn't a member of a particular Class or Sub-Class per se... You'd get so many 'build points' and could construct what ever character you wanted. If you wanted a 'Wizard' put all your resources into Ingelligence and Wisdom. Take Feats and Skills that supported learning and casting Spells. Specialties that gave you access to 'Lore' concerning your focus... Lore of the Elemental Plane for example.

                        




Ever play GURPS?

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />I always imagined a system where a Player Character wasn't a member of a particular Class or Sub-Class per se... You'd get so many 'build points' and could construct what ever character you wanted. If you wanted a 'Wizard' put all your resources into Ingelligence and Wisdom. Take Feats and Skills that supported learning and casting Spells. Specialties that gave you access to 'Lore' concerning your focus... Lore of the Elemental Plane for example.

                        




Ever play GURPS?



ummm, nope?
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />I always imagined a system where a Player Character wasn't a member of a particular Class or Sub-Class per se... You'd get so many 'build points' and could construct what ever character you wanted. If you wanted a 'Wizard' put all your resources into Ingelligence and Wisdom. Take Feats and Skills that supported learning and casting Spells. Specialties that gave you access to 'Lore' concerning your focus... Lore of the Elemental Plane for example.

Ever play GURPS?

ummm, nope?

You might like it.

It's very open ended. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

IMO conforming all the classes to one structure leads to grid fevor and I think if not done right it can alienate certain playstyles.

Allow some overlap to the boxes, and accept the idea that "same thing, different powersource" can be simplified to "same thing", and it'll work great.

Allow some overlap to the boxes, and accept the idea that "same thing, different powersource" can be simplified to "same thing", and it'll work great.

Well thats a box along side another box.

I did a thread awhile back that proposed the Idea of turning specialties and Prestige classes  into Side classes (I was calling them Kits) but basically the Idea evolved into 10 level side classes that grant benefits along side the one you got from your class; some had a lot of small benefits like feats, and some have a few big benefits that function more like templates or extension of your class.

It took a lot of things from past editions and wrapped em up into one system. community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...  

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />I always imagined a system where a Player Character wasn't a member of a particular Class or Sub-Class per se... You'd get so many 'build points' and could construct what ever character you wanted. If you wanted a 'Wizard' put all your resources into Ingelligence and Wisdom. Take Feats and Skills that supported learning and casting Spells. Specialties that gave you access to 'Lore' concerning your focus... Lore of the Elemental Plane for example.

Ever play GURPS?

ummm, nope?

You might like it.

It's very open ended. 



As mellored said, It's very open ended.  You essentially use build points to construct your characters.  No real classes.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

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