Metagame Dissonance - Redux

New thread here. The other one is broken.

57297888 wrote:
57785078 wrote:
56930528 wrote:
Sure we do. We do it all of that time. That's what things like slang and jargon are, not to mention the basis behind concepts like innuendo and sarcasm. All I'm saying is that trying to argue semantics and technicality about dictionary definitions as they relate to game mechanics that are already abstractions to begin with is a losing battle.



All of those things are not real definitions, though.  Slang will SOMETIMES become an accepted definition over a long perdiod of time.  It doesn't happen overnight because some people want to knock an ooze prone in an RPG, though.


In all fairness, the only thing that stops slang from being accepted is the poeple who get to decide what belongs in the dictionary.  Languages are constantly evolving faster than dictionaries.  Here's a good example.  In my Japanese class, we loearned the word "boku" is used by young men tou say "I."  But, young girls have recently started to use it too.  Who is wrong?  The native speakers?  The dictionary people?  Or is it just an unexpected evolution of the language that hasn't yet been accepted by the dictionary people?



Nobody on the rules side is positing that somehow "prone" or "pushed" are an attempt at slang Mecha. You need to accept natural language in the conventional use in the country in which you are playing. Otherwise you have a bunch of different people all with different definitions in their heads.
"If it's not a conjuration, how did the wizard con·jure/ˈkänjər/Verb 1. Make (something) appear unexpectedly or seemingly from nowhere as if by magic. it?" -anon "Why don't you read fire·ball / fī(-ə)r-ˌbȯl/ and see if you can find the key word con.jure /'kən-ˈju̇r/ anywhere in it." -Maxperson
Maybe the forum gods are trying to tell you something...
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Warlords! Dissonance! Sneak Attack! Modularity! Quadratic Wizards! X Edition Sucks! Y Edition Rules! WARLORDS AGAIN!

Mike Mearls
 ‏: Martial healing is something that groups should decide they want based on their understanding of what hit points are.
Peter Paul Paluca : Question is, will it be 'published' optional? Or just be a houserule implemented by GM's
Mike Mearls ‏:  It'll be in the DMG, in our campaign/genre recipes chapter.

 


Most of this issue has been settled with these statements.

I'm content now.  

 



Mike Mearls
 ‏: Martial healing is something that groups should decide they want based on their understanding of what hit points are.
Peter Paul Paluca : Question is, will it be 'published' optional? Or just be a houserule implemented by GM's
Mike Mearls ‏:  It'll be in the DMG, in our campaign/genre recipes chapter.

 


Most of this issue has been settled with these statements.

I'm content now.  

 



and cue the Warlord crowd walking out the door... Good job Mearls!
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Why would they do that, exactly?  They get to play with martial healing if they want. 
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Why would they do that, exactly?  They get to play with martial healing if they want. 



They apparently can't be happy if any part of their game requires an optional set of rules.


I think the concept of campaign/genre recipes in the DMG is ideal. 

 


Why would they do that, exactly?  They get to play with martial healing if they want. 



They apparently can't be happy if any part of their game requires an optional set of rules.

Yeah, that's not true.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Why would they do that, exactly?  They get to play with martial healing if they want. 



They apparently can't be happy if any part of their game requires an optional set of rules.

Yeah, that's not true.



I don't think it is either, most people just want their playstyle to have some sort of offical support. 




Mike Mearls
 ‏: Martial healing is something that groups should decide they want based on their understanding of what hit points are.
Peter Paul Paluca : Question is, will it be 'published' optional? Or just be a houserule implemented by GM's
Mike Mearls ‏:  It'll be in the DMG, in our campaign/genre recipes chapter.

 


Most of this issue has been settled with these statements.

I'm content now.  

 



But leaves my original question that started the whole discusion on HP.
Woulden't % based healing be less disonant then the curent healing system.

Mike Mearls
 ‏: Martial healing is something that groups should decide they want based on their understanding of what hit points are.
Peter Paul Paluca : Question is, will it be 'published' optional? Or just be a houserule implemented by GM's
Mike Mearls ‏:  It'll be in the DMG, in our campaign/genre recipes chapter.

 


Most of this issue has been settled with these statements.

I'm content now.  

 



But leaves my original question that started the whole discusion on HP.
Woulden't % be less disonant then the curent healing system.



I don't think you understand the true meaning of dissonant.

Dissonant actually means "mechanic that I don't like".

Mike Mearls
 ‏: Martial healing is something that groups should decide they want based on their understanding of what hit points are.
Peter Paul Paluca : Question is, will it be 'published' optional? Or just be a houserule implemented by GM's
Mike Mearls ‏:  It'll be in the DMG, in our campaign/genre recipes chapter.

 


Most of this issue has been settled with these statements.

I'm content now.  

 



But leaves my original question that started the whole discusion on HP.
Woulden't % be less disonant then the curent healing system.



I don't think you understand the true meaning of dissonant.

Dissonant actually means "mechanic that I don't like".



Ignore him Edwin.   I think percentage healing seems better to me than Hit Dice yes.  That is true for me regardless of any dissonance.   I think Hit Dice smacks too much of healing surges.  I also do not want any limit on magical healing that involves the targets limitations.  

Depending on how you interpret hit points and what powers you use will determine if they are dissonant.   I don't think dissonance is really central to the martial healing debate.  Not to say nothing ever could come up but the way the pro-inspiration healing define hit points I think they avoid metagame dissonance.
@edwin_su
For my current (read: mostly 2E) games, percentage-based healing is something my group is interested in testing (which aligns well as we are currently fiddling with the weaker classes of 2E trying to give them more approximate parity, namely the cleric and rogue).  With the way we use hp (hybridization), it is wholly consistent and recieved a unanimously-approved reaction.

As for the genre/campaign recipe idea, I must say that's a very elegant way of handling some of the more controversial elements, and it is still core by virtue of being in the core rules.  Applause for Mr. Mearls!

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."


Mike Mearls
 ‏: Martial healing is something that groups should decide they want based on their understanding of what hit points are.
Peter Paul Paluca : Question is, will it be 'published' optional? Or just be a houserule implemented by GM's
Mike Mearls ‏:  It'll be in the DMG, in our campaign/genre recipes chapter.

 


Most of this issue has been settled with these statements.

I'm content now.  

 



But leaves my original question that started the whole discusion on HP.
Woulden't % be less disonant then the curent healing system.



I don't think you understand the true meaning of dissonant.

Dissonant actually means "mechanic that I don't like".



Ignore him Edwin.   I think percentage healing seems better to me than Hit Dice yes.  That is true for me regardless of any dissonance.   I think Hit Dice smacks too much of healing surges.  I also do not want any limit on magical healing that involves the targets limitations.  

Depending on how you interpret hit points and what powers you use will determine if they are dissonant.   I don't think dissonance is really central to the martial healing debate.  Not to say nothing ever could come up but the way the pro-inspiration healing define hit points I think they avoid metagame dissonance.



Strange how people experiance things difrently.

Becouse the healing hitdice to me have very littel to do with healing surges, becouse the healing hitdice are not % based and surges are.
They are a new mecanic unique to the DnD next playtest. 

Strange how people experiance things difrently.

Becouse the healing hitdice to me have very littel to do with healing surges, becouse the healing hitdice are not % based and surges are.
They are a new mecanic unique to the DnD next playtest. 



They are a limited set of units of self healing.  I agree they are not as percentage based as surges.  They are though based upon the class so are a little bit percentage based.   Fighters have bigger dice than wizards for example.

 

Mike Mearls
 ‏: Martial healing is something that groups should decide they want based on their understanding of what hit points are.
Peter Paul Paluca : Question is, will it be 'published' optional? Or just be a houserule implemented by GM's
Mike Mearls ‏:  It'll be in the DMG, in our campaign/genre recipes chapter.

 


Most of this issue has been settled with these statements.

I'm content now. 


I don't follow Twitter, so thank you for posting that (I may not have seen it otherwise).

That works just fine for me.  I was always fine with it being an option, just not one that I'd have to shell out for a splat-book to get.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

That works just fine for me.  I was always fine with it being an option, just not one that I'd have to shell out for a splat-book to get.


Pretty much this.

Also, I'm glad that the "if martial healing exists in any form I'm not buying the game" crowd wasn't listened to.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
New thread here. The other one is broken.

Sure we do. We do it all of that time. That's what things like slang and jargon are, not to mention the basis behind concepts like innuendo and sarcasm. All I'm saying is that trying to argue semantics and technicality about dictionary definitions as they relate to game mechanics that are already abstractions to begin with is a losing battle.



All of those things are not real definitions, though.  Slang will SOMETIMES become an accepted definition over a long perdiod of time.  It doesn't happen overnight because some people want to knock an ooze prone in an RPG, though.


In all fairness, the only thing that stops slang from being accepted is the poeple who get to decide what belongs in the dictionary.  Languages are constantly evolving faster than dictionaries.  Here's a good example.  In my Japanese class, we loearned the word "boku" is used by young men tou say "I."  But, young girls have recently started to use it too.  Who is wrong?  The native speakers?  The dictionary people?  Or is it just an unexpected evolution of the language that hasn't yet been accepted by the dictionary people?



Nobody on the rules side is positing that somehow "prone" or "pushed" are an attempt at slang Mecha. You need to accept natural language in the conventional use in the country in which you are playing. Otherwise you have a bunch of different people all with different definitions in their heads.


That's entirely irrelevant.  I was addressing the notion that slang doesn't have real definitions, or that it exists somehow apart from regular language.  Now, if you have something OP-worthy to edit in, by all means go ahead.  Otherwise, I think a thread about language and its eolutions is best suited for the OTT.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.


Mike Mearls
 ‏: Martial healing is something that groups should decide they want based on their understanding of what hit points are.
Peter Paul Paluca : Question is, will it be 'published' optional? Or just be a houserule implemented by GM's
Mike Mearls ‏:  It'll be in the DMG, in our campaign/genre recipes chapter.

 


Most of this issue has been settled with these statements.

I'm content now. 


I don't follow Twitter, so thank you for posting that (I may not have seen it otherwise).

That works just fine for me.  I was always fine with it being an option, just not one that I'd have to shell out for a splat-book to get.


community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

is a tread where i copy paste DnD related tweets from Mike Mearls.
Took it upon myselve to keep it upto date after wrekan stoped updating it  
....

D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

is a tread where i copy paste DnD related tweets from Mike Mearls.
Took it upon myselve to keep it upto date after wrekan stoped updating it  



Thanks Edwin.  I appreciate what you do keeping that thread up.  Way to step up.

Mike Mearls
 ‏: Martial healing is something that groups should decide they want based on their understanding of what hit points are.
Peter Paul Paluca : Question is, will it be 'published' optional? Or just be a houserule implemented by GM's
Mike Mearls ‏:  It'll be in the DMG, in our campaign/genre recipes chapter.

 


Most of this issue has been settled with these statements.

I'm content now. 


I don't follow Twitter, so thank you for posting that (I may not have seen it otherwise).

That works just fine for me.  I was always fine with it being an option, just not one that I'd have to shell out for a splat-book to get.


community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

is a tread where i copy paste DnD related tweets from Mike Mearls.
Took it upon myselve to keep it upto date after wrekan stoped updating it  


I said that because I was away from the forums for about 2 months.  Although, having been gone that long, I did forget about that thread.  I'm glad to hear that someone is keeping it up.  Good for you.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

 

Nobody on the rules side is positing that somehow "prone" or "pushed" are an attempt at slang Mecha. You need to accept natural language in the conventional use in the country in which you are playing. Otherwise you have a bunch of different people all with different definitions in their heads.



I think i start to see your problem.

In 4th edition they merged a number of conditions to shorten the list of conditions.
Putting these consolidated conditions under a header like the header "prone"
 
while knocking a flying creature of balance forcing it to lose altitude might not fit the natural language of what prone means but was part of the consolidated prone condition.

so we either have :
A : a short list of broad conditions that might not always fit natural language.

or

B : a very long list of narrow conditions that do fit natural language. 
That works just fine for me.  I was always fine with it being an option, just not one that I'd have to shell out for a splat-book to get.


Pretty much this.

Also, I'm glad that the "if martial healing exists in any form I'm not buying the game" crowd wasn't listened to.


And surprise of all surprises, it seems they're still willing to buy the game.

Seems it was just a load of smoke blowing after all.
That works just fine for me.  I was always fine with it being an option, just not one that I'd have to shell out for a splat-book to get.


Pretty much this.

Also, I'm glad that the "if martial healing exists in any form I'm not buying the game" crowd wasn't listened to.



My problem is if its in the DMG the majority of players won't know it exists at all. If its in the PHB as an optional rule, I would be fine with it...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Wait.  People are really trying to claim the DMG doesn't exist to players?  That there's a divide between "DM material" and "Player material" and never the twain shall meet?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
That works just fine for me.  I was always fine with it being an option, just not one that I'd have to shell out for a splat-book to get.


Pretty much this.

Also, I'm glad that the "if martial healing exists in any form I'm not buying the game" crowd wasn't listened to.



My problem is if its in the DMG the majority of players won't know it exists at all. If its in the PHB as an optional rule, I would be fine with it...


If the DM is using martial healing, then it's up to the DM to let the players know that.  Just like it is with any other optional rule being used.

If you mean that the players won't know to ask for it in games where the DM hasn't said that it's available, then too bad.  If you want to know every option that is available, ask to read your DM's DMG or pick up a copy of your own.  Ideally though, if the DM is so controlling that he won't let you read his DMG, then you need a new DM.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Wait.  People are really trying to claim the DMG doesn't exist to players?  That there's a divide between "DM material" and "Player material" and never the twain shall meet?

Whatever happened to that "player-dm" guy?

That works just fine for me.  I was always fine with it being an option, just not one that I'd have to shell out for a splat-book to get.


Pretty much this.

Also, I'm glad that the "if martial healing exists in any form I'm not buying the game" crowd wasn't listened to.


And surprise of all surprises, it seems they're still willing to buy the game.

Seems it was just a load of smoke blowing after all.



Or, rather, that your portrayal of people's stance as that was completely wrong and hyperbolic on the whole.  There may have been a couple, but I never thought there was a group of people saying that if it existed in any optional form, they would pass on the game.

Perhaps more reading and less restating of your version of what someone says is in order (generic 'you' in this sentence, not you, EnglishLanguage).

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

There's a difference between "also support the type of gameplay I want" and "only support the type of gameplay I want".

Mike Mearls
 ‏: Martial healing is something that groups should decide they want based on their understanding of what hit points are.
Peter Paul Paluca : Question is, will it be 'published' optional? Or just be a houserule implemented by GM's
Mike Mearls ‏:  It'll be in the DMG, in our campaign/genre recipes chapter.

 


Most of this issue has been settled with these statements.

I'm content now.  

 



But leaves my original question that started the whole discusion on HP.
Woulden't % based healing be less disonant then the curent healing system.



I did try this along time ago for my 2e game, but percentages became too complicated.     In the end,  we just put a cap on the max possible hit points at 20+con regardless of level.  We also changed the armor system to include damage resistance.    That way a knight in full plate could still take several hits from a sword and fight on.  

In addition, if you read critical hit system #2 in the POC&T book it actually breaks down wounds into percentages of maxium hit point totals.   



Wait.  People are really trying to claim the DMG doesn't exist to players?  That there's a divide between "DM material" and "Player material" and never the twain shall meet?



No we are saying most players don't spend an extra $30 on a book they probably won't use...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />If you mean that the players won't know to ask for it in games where the DM hasn't said that it's available, then too bad.  If you want to know every option that is available, ask to read your DM's DMG or pick up a copy of your own.  Ideally though, if the DM is so controlling that he won't let you read his DMG, then you need a new DM.



Personally I miss the days when the DMG was off-limits to players. There was a feeling of discovery back then being a PC. Now everyone knows what all the good magic items do, what all the monsters are... there's too much transparency these days. I liked back when the game encouraged DMs to keep secrets.
Wait.  People are really trying to claim the DMG doesn't exist to players?  That there's a divide between "DM material" and "Player material" and never the twain shall meet?



No we are saying most players don't spend an extra $30 on a book they probably won't use...Smile



Also as a matter of referencing, it's generally preferrable to have character build options in the PHB rather than DMG. I expect the DMG to contain a bunch of stuff I'll need when I'm DMing and nothing I'll need while playing (though knowing PHB data will be helpful for understanding what I'm trying to challenge as a DM, and knowing DMG data will help me know what challenges I may face as a player, so I would typically be interested in reading both. But referencing is different, and even if I need to reference both it's a more natural split).

Martial healing in practice typically came up as a matter of PC build options, so it would go in the PHB. I'm not sure what you would put in a DMG in this case. Like, would you imagine the Warlord class, or the set of Fighter manuevers meant to replace it, or whatever, being there in the DMG instead of PHB? Or maybe just Inspiring Word or its equivalents? That's a really wierd design.  It serves mostly just to stigmatize the option and make it sound like you're asking the DM for a favor by including it. Putting it in the DMG makes more sense if it were some form of global thing, or semi global thing.

For example, suppose the DMG had a section on martial healing. It introduces Healing surges, or maybe current style Hit Dice, or whatever. They don't exist without this module. And then adds a few options to play with them, like an optional Fighter/Warlord manuever to let people spend HD in combat, and maybe a cleric spell that does similar. Another section could have alignment, adding in both a general level description of what alignments mean, and then adding a handful of spells and other options with alignment based effects.

That's one way of doing things, though it has the problem of making it relatively hard to find your options when making choices. For example, if you're looking at the list of manuevers to pick one, you might not know there are additional choices in another book (the DMG), squirrelled away in a module.   
Wait.  People are really trying to claim the DMG doesn't exist to players?  That there's a divide between "DM material" and "Player material" and never the twain shall meet?



No we are saying most players don't spend an extra $30 on a book they probably won't use...


And in Next they'll have even more reason to use it.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />If you mean that the players won't know to ask for it in games where the DM hasn't said that it's available, then too bad.  If you want to know every option that is available, ask to read your DM's DMG or pick up a copy of your own.  Ideally though, if the DM is so controlling that he won't let you read his DMG, then you need a new DM.



Personally I miss the days when the DMG was off-limits to players. There was a feeling of discovery back then being a PC. Now everyone knows what all the good magic items do, what all the monsters are... there's too much transparency these days. I liked back when the game encouraged DMs to keep secrets.



Magic items are a possible exception to what I said above. I'm fine with magic items staying in the DMG, and being exclusively handed out by DM fiat. It's things like the feats and prestige classes in the 3.5 DMG that seem misplaced.
Also as a matter of referencing, it's generally preferrable to have character build options in the PHB rather than DMG. I expect the DMG to contain a bunch of stuff I'll need when I'm DMing and nothing I'll need while playing (though knowing PHB data will be helpful for understanding what I'm trying to challenge as a DM, and knowing DMG data will help me know what challenges I may face as a player, so I would typically be interested in reading both. But referencing is different, and even if I need to reference both it's a more natural split).

Martial healing in practice typically came up as a matter of PC build options, so it would go in the PHB. I'm not sure what you would put in a DMG in this case. Like, would you imagine the Warlord class, or the set of Fighter manuevers meant to replace it, or whatever, being there in the DMG instead of PHB? Or maybe just Inspiring Word or its equivalents? That's a really wierd design.  It serves mostly just to stigmatize the option and make it sound like you're asking the DM for a favor by including it. Putting it in the DMG makes more sense if it were some form of global thing, or semi global thing.

For example, suppose the DMG had a section on martial healing. It introduces Healing surges, or maybe current style Hit Dice, or whatever. They don't exist without this module. And then adds a few options to play with them, like an optional Fighter/Warlord manuever to let people spend HD in combat, and maybe a cleric spell that does similar. Another section could have alignment, adding in both a general level description of what alignments mean, and then adding a handful of spells and other options with alignment based effects.

That's one way of doing things, though it has the problem of making it relatively hard to find your options when making choices. For example, if you're looking at the list of manuevers to pick one, you might not know there are additional choices in another book (the DMG), squirrelled away in a module.   



But there -wouldn't- be 'additional choices' in the context of the game you're building if the DM's world does not recognize martial healing (or recognizes a variant of it).  While it's true that if the DM allows them, such feats would require consulting a second source (something that the Character Builder will, no doubt, take care of asking you), you won't be looking through feats that don't exist for your world if they -aren't- allowed.

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

My theory is that the concept of inspirational healing and how it impacts recovery etc... will be in the DMG.   Alongside other options done differently.

I don't see a warlord class in the DMG.  I see that in the PHB.  It may have a note attached saying - this class presupposes you are using the inspiration rule in section x.y and should not be allowed otherwise.

The DMG will just present the various approaches the DM can choose from for his campaign. 
Wait.  People are really trying to claim the DMG doesn't exist to players?  That there's a divide between "DM material" and "Player material" and never the twain shall meet?



No we are saying most players don't spend an extra $30 on a book they probably won't use...Smile



Also as a matter of referencing, it's generally preferrable to have character build options in the PHB rather than DMG. I expect the DMG to contain a bunch of stuff I'll need when I'm DMing and nothing I'll need while playing (though knowing PHB data will be helpful for understanding what I'm trying to challenge as a DM, and knowing DMG data will help me know what challenges I may face as a player, so I would typically be interested in reading both. But referencing is different, and even if I need to reference both it's a more natural split).

Martial healing in practice typically came up as a matter of PC build options, so it would go in the PHB. I'm not sure what you would put in a DMG in this case. Like, would you imagine the Warlord class, or the set of Fighter manuevers meant to replace it, or whatever, being there in the DMG instead of PHB? Or maybe just Inspiring Word or its equivalents? That's a really wierd design.  It serves mostly just to stigmatize the option and make it sound like you're asking the DM for a favor by including it. Putting it in the DMG makes more sense if it were some form of global thing, or semi global thing.

For example, suppose the DMG had a section on martial healing. It introduces Healing surges, or maybe current style Hit Dice, or whatever. They don't exist without this module. And then adds a few options to play with them, like an optional Fighter/Warlord manuever to let people spend HD in combat, and maybe a cleric spell that does similar. Another section could have alignment, adding in both a general level description of what alignments mean, and then adding a handful of spells and other options with alignment based effects.

That's one way of doing things, though it has the problem of making it relatively hard to find your options when making choices. For example, if you're looking at the list of manuevers to pick one, you might not know there are additional choices in another book (the DMG), squirrelled away in a module.   



Yeah, I'd rather they put the martial healing right in the PHB out in the open and throw a side bar in that sasy "DMs can change the martial healing to temporary hit points or remove martial healing powers from their game, but should tell players before they enter the game if they do this."

Nothing wrong with that right? Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Wait.  People are really trying to claim the DMG doesn't exist to players?  That there's a divide between "DM material" and "Player material" and never the twain shall meet?



No we are saying most players don't spend an extra $30 on a book they probably won't use...


And in Next they'll have even more reason to use it.



"For even more options for your character buy the DMG"

Sounds like the MMO fee-to-play (spell correctly) scam of dropping boxes you can't open unless you buy a key with real money.

WotC does that, its a nail in the coffin...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Expecting that people purchase PHB, DMG, and MM to get the full experience is not the equivalent of "freemium" game types.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition