If you could cast one spell per level in Real Life..

160 posts / 0 new
Last post
What would you pick
mine would be
0 prestidigitation
1 endure elements
2 locate object
3 tongues
4 improved invisibility
5 major creation
6 heal
7 teleport w/o error
8 polymorph any object
9 shapechange
Are we going to rule out miracle and other spells that can duplicate other spells?  Also, do we get each spell just once per day, or multiple times?  To get even more nit-picky, how are we handling spells that are different levels on different spell lists?  

I'll come back with a list at some point when I shouldn't be sleeping. 
After having spent all of yesterday with wet feet, Control Weather is going to be the first one on my list.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
0: Prestidigation.
1: Comprehend Languages. 
2: Invisibility. Detect Thoughts is a close second, though.
3: Fly.
4: Polymorph.
5: Major Creation.
6: Heal.
7: Control Weather.
8: Mass Cure Critical Wounds.
9: True Resurrection.

What will our caster level be? 
How do we handle XP and gold costs?  High-level characters would normally be multi-millionaire demigods able to handle massive drains on their life energy and wallets, while I'm assuming we'd otherwise be our normal selves.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
figure theyd work like spell like abilities and at caster level 20. not sure how many times can be cast per day maybe 3?
0 Prestidigitation: I think this will be everyone's choice for this level
1 Loresong: Use a skill untrained, also +14 on the skill
2 Locate Object: Yeah, hard to turn down
3 Shrink Item: Carrying things just got a lot easier
4 Panacea: Eliminates most adverse conditions; also heals 1d8+20 hp, and I don't think my max hp are even that high
5 Dragonsight: Blindsense out to 100 feet, darkvision out to 200 feet, and the ability to see four times as far as normal in low light
6 Hardening: Nothing I own will ever break again; note that spell-like abilities don't require material components
7 Greater Teleport: Plane tickets, bah
8 Polymorph Any Object: I'd just use this to temporarily make objects; it's higher level than major creation, but it doesn't require a skill check
9 Wish: Spell-like abilities don't have an xp cost
You're stealing most of my list, Maat.

0) Prestidigitation: We all love it.
1) Scholar's touch: Super speed-reading is much more useful in real life.
2) Locate object: Finding things.
3) Shrink item: Carrying things
4) Panacea: Fixing creatures.
5) Leomund's secret chest: Storing things (I'm assuming this just stores things without the chest).
6) Veil: An excellent companion for shapechanging, and more general disguising.
7) Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion: Safe, comfortable, and damn near impregnable.
8) Polymorph any object: Swiss army knife of transformations.
9) Wish: Swiss army knife of everything.  Able to make magic items.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Ack, the website ate my last post (which was basically me moaning about not being able to pick Shapechange and Wish/Miracle and Time Stop...). So here's just one idea:

L0: Create Water
L1: Unseen Servant
L2: Locate Object (never lose your keys!)
L3: Magic Circle against Evil
L4: Sending
L5: Lesser Planar Binding
L6: Heroes' Feast
L7: Greater Plane Shift [SpC]  (as Cleric)
L8: True Creation
L9: Genesis
0: Prestidigitation, obviously.
1: I'm thinking Unseen Servant.
2: Locate Object seems handy.
3: Shrink Object. Because luggage is annoying.
4: Panacea. Hospital bills are bad.
5: If I pick Genesis for the 9th level spell, I'll want Plane Shift. Otherwise, Scrying could be interesting.
6: Hardening seems interesting.
7: Greater Teleport. Suddenly, my life gets much easier.
8: True Creation.
9: Either Wish or Genesis. While the former is undeniably more useful, the idea of having my own demiplane rather appeals to me. 
Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne! Resident Invisible Man Lurker in the House of Trolls A Testament to My Glory
0: Acid Touch
1: Magic Missile
2: Blindness/Deafness
3: Fireball
4: Phantasmal Killer
5: Cloudkill
6: Chain Lightning
7: Greater Teleport
8: Incendiary Cloud
9: Weird

the rest of the world.  You will all burn or die in your own nightmares. 
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

0: Amaneusis, so I can read via Osmosis!
1: Charm Person, because who doesn't want to make everybody friendly? AKA get ALL the ladies!
2: Detect  Thoughts, since reading minds is a good way to keep others friendly.
3: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, because I am a pervert. Go figure.
4: Polymorph, because I can change myself into someone else everyday, just to fake people out!
5: Dominate Person, because You are Now My B***h!
6: Legend Lore, because I will always love learning!
7: Limited Wish, because I wish for a whole s**tload of noms!
8: Dreaded Form of the Eye Tyrant, DIE MORTAL SCUM! I AM A BUNCH OF EYEBALLS!
9: Hindsight, so I can see all of the past, like a pervert.

Yep, that would be my list for real life.
Want to see my fantasy world list? 
0: Prestidigitation (It has an automatic cleaning mode!  No more dirty dishes, ever!)
1: Comprehend Languages (even if I can't speak, I can understand)
2: Alter Self (Shape myself as I please)
3: Water Breathing (Great emergency escape/exploration spell)
4: Improved Invisibility (or Panacea if I can't have Heal at 5) (Go unseen wherever I please.  Alternativley, no diseases or other maladies ever)
5: Heal (Adept) (or Fabricate) (No disease, malady, or injury sticks to me ever.  Alternativley, save a lot of money)
6: Disintegrate (Combat, excavation, waste removal, escape... I don't think there's anything Disintegrate can't solve)
7: Greater Teleport (I am wherever I want to be.)
8: Bah, 8th is all bad spells.  I'd like an extra 7th, Mordenkein's Magnificent Mansion.  If I can't do that, Greater Planar Binding I suppose. (MMM removes much of the need for a mortal home.  GPB gers me fiend slaves to do my bidding, but is a bit risky.  Guess I can disintegrate them if they get uppity)
9: Gate (More going anywhere.  Specifically, to the Astral if I start to get old.)

"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice."
On Worldbuilding - On Crafting Aliens - Pillars of Art and Flavor - Simulationism, Narritivism, and Gamism - Shub-Niggurath in D&D
THE COALITION WAR GAME -Phyrexian Chief Praetor
Round 1: (4-1-2, 1 kill)
Round 2: (16-8-2, 4 kills)
Round 3: (18-9-2, 1 kill)
Round 4: (22-10-0, 2 kills)
Round 5: (56-16-3, 9 kills)
Round 6: (8-7-1)

Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920

Sticking only to Player's Handbook?

0 - Prestidigitation.  Duh.
1 - Unseen Servent
2 - Tongues
3 - Glibness
4 - Cure Critical Wounds
5 - Teleport

And that's where I stopped 'cause honestly, putting myself at 10th level is probably already stretching it.
Resident Over-Educated Ivory-Tower Elitist [You don't have the Need-to-Know for that, citizen]
0-Light
1-True Strike
2-Invisiblility
3-Fly
4-Polymorph Self
5-Teleport
6-Mordenkainen's Lucubration
7-Limited Wish
8-Etherealness
9-Time Stop 
I survived Section 4 and all I got was this lousy sig Off-topic and going downhill from there
Why are so many people picking combat spells?  It's not like they're really going to do you much good.  If the powers that be decide you're too much of a threat it's going to be long range fire that takes you out--far beyond the range you can shoot back.  If you're going to fight you'll have to do so by stealth.

Furthermore, Wish as the 9th level spell is basically a no-brainer.  Since it's a SLA there's no XP cost, it can be used to duplicate most of the spells in the game.

One thing I don't know the answer to--wishing for magic items normally has an XP cost, but since there's no XP cost what happens?  The 3.0 rules limited it to 15k gp value but imposed no XP cost (beyond that of the Wish itself.)  If we figure this as the limit you can wish for a single use command-word item of any spell in the game other than those with XP costs or very high material component costs.  (And the big example in this case is true resurrection--something you can do with a wish anyway so you don't need it.)

I also wonder what happens if you wish to make a day's progress on constructing a magic item?  That's below the 15k cap, could you build up something more powerful that way?
Furthermore, Wish as the 9th level spell is basically a no-brainer.  Since it's a SLA there's no XP cost, it can be used to duplicate most of the spells in the game.

Shapechange>Wish, bro.



Why?  Shapechanging into something that can wish doesn't grant you wish.
Why?  Shapechanging into something that can wish doesn't grant you wish.

Actually....
... You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.

Now open up your Fiend Folio to page 199.

And that's ignoring the fact that Shapechanging into a Black Ethergaunt or Solar or the like gives you spellcasting,



That's simply broken.  Shapechange is far cheaper than Wish, it shouldn't be able to produce a Wish effect.
Now open up your Fiend Folio to page 199.

As broken as that is anyway, it doesn't take a leap of genius to rule that the "1/year" thing applies even if you shift back and forth between forms.
And that's ignoring the fact that Shapechanging into a Black Ethergaunt or Solar or the like gives you spellcasting,

Only if you and your DM are both idiots...
It's arguable for the zodar's supernatural ability, but you don't gain spellcasting from any of the spells derived from alter self since it's not amongst their described benefits.  Alter self grants a lot of physical qualities, but spellcasting isn't a physical quality.

And even if you did were to receive the spellcasting, you'd still be locked out of some of the most beneficial spells (including wish) because real spellcasting has XP and gold costs.

It would be interesting to see what people would pick if they were employing normal spells with XP and gold costs, instead of having them as spell-like abilities.  You'd need to specify an exchange rate for gold pices, though ($100 per gold piece, perhaps?).

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
You'd need to specify an exchange rate for gold pices, though ($100 per gold piece, perhaps?).



Well, Player's Handbook says 50 gold pieces weigh a pound, and gold is worth about $1,410 per ounce at time of writing, so let's say $450 per gold piece.
You'd need to specify an exchange rate for gold pices, though ($100 per gold piece, perhaps?).



Well, Player's Handbook says 50 gold pieces weigh a pound, and gold is worth about $1,410 per ounce at time of writing, so let's say $450 per gold piece.

I was looking at this graph which suggests an average price of something like $400 per troy ounce (12 ounces to a pound) over about the last century, since the high spikes in the graph are a more recent thing.

But it's going to be pretty expensive either way, and it says something about the kind of wealth D&D characters typically achieve.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
I'd always tended to think of a D&D silver as being worth about $20. It's a single meal for an adventurer or the daily income for an impoverished peasant. In that interpretation, a gold piece would be worth about $200 ignoring the commodity value of gold IRL.
I think it's easier to assess with gold, since it's a consistent substance, but since the result of a food comparison is right in between the figures Maat and I have got for different gold possibilities, I can't say that it's at all unreasonable.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Kindly note that gold coins aren't pure gold, either. No coins are. They'd fall apart due to being too soft, or be melted down or skimmed by the greedy and competing nations or vendors.

==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Kindly note that gold coins aren't pure gold, either. No coins are. They'd fall apart due to being too soft, or be melted down or skimmed by the greedy and competing nations or vendors.

==Aelryinth

Those things happen.  It is a big part of the reason you don't buy gold or silver coins at face value if they have one.  It is also why you see milling around the edge of a coin; it is there to show if someone is shaving the edges of the coins off.

Coins actually are favored in investment over bars/bricks because they usually have much higher quality standards.  A gold coin may not be 100% gold but the actual percentage is known and almost universally accepted as the coin is recognized.  Perhaps a trade bar has a higher percentage of gold in it but it probably doesn't have a government backing it up.

Looking at some of these lists that have Genisis on them for 9th-level; how many of you have forgetting the casting restrictions on the spell? 
Kindly note that gold coins aren't pure gold, either. No coins are. They'd fall apart due to being too soft, or be melted down or skimmed by the greedy and competing nations or vendors.

That's true of real-world coins, but D&D gold coins are pure gold (or at least directly equivalent in value); you get 50 coins to a pound, and one pound of non-coin gold costs 50 gp.

The question of whether or not D&D coins are practical is separate from our use for determining a conversion rate.
It's arguable for the zodar's supernatural ability, but you don't gain spellcasting from any of the spells derived from alter self since it's not amongst their described benefits.  Alter self grants a lot of physical qualities, but spellcasting isn't a physical quality.

Are we really going to go down this road again? I'm going to humiliate you in front of everyone, you're going to get butthurt and call the ORCs, They'll pillage and burn the thread, and everyone will be unhappy. You're wrong, the rules are both clear and explicit on this. Get over it.

It's more likely that you'll try to argue that all natural abilities are physical.  But they're never stated as such and abilities like natural spellcasting aren't physical in nature.

Convincing you is the only victory condition as far as I'm concerned and humiliation would be counterproductive to that end.  The only way the ORCs usually get called is if people resort to insults instead of arguments, and I have no plans to do that.
And even if you did were to receive the spellcasting, you'd still be locked out of some of the most beneficial spells (including wish) because real spellcasting has XP and gold costs.

Ah, but you'd get enough. It really doesn't matter much, what with acces to Wish and all, but a little extra coverage is nice.

The zodar is debatable, since supernatural abilities lack the "no XP/gold cost" clause of spell-like abilities.   It's not important for a real zodar, which uses the ability only very rarely.

The other access is certainly nice, but I rate wish very highly for its ability to create magic items in a world that otherwise lacks them, so access to it is a decisive factor.
It would be interesting to see what people would pick if they were employing normal spells with XP and gold costs, instead of having them as spell-like abilities.  You'd need to specify an exchange rate for gold pices, though ($100 per gold piece, perhaps?).

I'd go with my level eight spell being PaO. Nothing else would change.

Shapechange's focus could be anywhere from $150,000 to $675,000 by the range of our current estimates.  It's certainly worthwhile for those who can afford it (whether wish is available or not, since shapechange is awesome regardless), but it's likely to be beyond what most people can readily spend on a jade circlet.

That is, however, easier to leverage than the XP, since there are many money schemes that could be facilitated by use of the other spell-like abilities, and once you've got it you're golden.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Rules compendium. You're wrong. We've been over this multiple times, I've been right those times, and I'm right now.

The Rules Compendium says that natural abilities include abilities derived from a creature's physical nature; it never says that all natural abilities are physical, nor does it say that a creature's natural spellcasting ability is physical.

Racial spellcasting is a natural ability, but not a physical one, which is why the alter self line of spells doesn't grant it.

You can say that you're right all you like, but the Rules Compendium doesn't support what you're saying.  Natural abilities include every type of undefined ability (i.e. not designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like), whether they're physical, mental, or otherwise.
I may be a bit odd, but I rate wish as somewhat inferior ro a multi-use Wish with a bunch of other fun and hard or impossible to otherwise replicate abilities tacked on.

Try rating it without the assumption that shapechange grants free access to wish (you can make it hypothetical if that suits your current viewpoint).
Yeah, I was going with PaOing a little piece of quartz or somethign into my 1500gp jade circlet. Of course, really, I'd be more than happy with just Wieldskill and GotA as SLAs. Anyhing above that, from a practical standpoint, is just gravy. Well, until the general "take over the world" level of spells, that is.

If copper counts as a material of "great intrinsic value" according to polymorph any object, jade is probably out, too.  But, as noted, there are plenty of other ways to get the money.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
The only type of natural ability mentioned was physical. Specific trumps general, all natural abilities are physical unless otherwise stated. Ethergaunt and Solar say no such thing.

The only type mentioned is physical, but that doesn't make it the default.  It's not a case of specific versus general, they simply never mention it.  Technically speaking, they never say that natural spellcasting isn't physical in the natural abilities section either, but:

According to the Rules Compendium (page 137), racial spellcasting is subject to the same spellcasting rules normally used for characters, apart from the exact way it might use somatic and material components, and regular spellcasting is mental in nature.

Come to think of it, that broad similarity to spellcasting also means racial spellcasters need minimum ability scores, preparation time, and so forth.  Polymorph any object could help there for wizard casting (since it gives you the form's Intelligence score), but shapechange is going to leave you underpowered in the other mental stats, since you'd be running on whatever you had as a natural human.  Their durations do allow enough time for the preparation, so that's inconvenient, but wouldn't be impossible if you were being granted the spellcasting ability.

For our purposes, that means that if (hypothetically) you had a means to gain racial spellcasting and cover the necessary abilities scores via shapechange/polymorph any object, you'd have access to more overall castings of wish per day, but you'd have slower loading time than if you just had wish as a spell-like ability due to the preparation required.
I'm going to assume by that you mean "Assume it doesn't allow you to use SU abilities with XP costs." If so, then it kinda sucks as, while a solid buff, you really have better things to do at that level, and Wish is superior due to the free item and cost reducers.

True, so at least we agree on that point, even if we disagree on the other.  The deciding factor is really about the best access to wish, rather than the more direct benefits of shapechange.
If copper counts as a material of "great intrinsic value" according to polymorph any object, jade is probably out, too.  But, as noted, there are plenty of other ways to get the money.

Correct .Which really means that there's no reason not to take Shapechange.

At the very least, it means that costly material components still wouldn't lock out any given spell choices, whether it was shapechange, or something much more expensive like true resurrection ($2.5 million to $11.25 million by the estimates).

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Why are so many people picking combat spells?  It's not like they're really going to do you much good.  If the powers that be decide you're too much of a threat it's going to be long range fire that takes you out--far beyond the range you can shoot back.  If you're going to fight you'll have to do so by stealth.



They're not combat spells, champ, they're murder spells.  As for the rest, what do you think Teleport is for?
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

Why are so many people picking combat spells?  It's not like they're really going to do you much good.  If the powers that be decide you're too much of a threat it's going to be long range fire that takes you out--far beyond the range you can shoot back.  If you're going to fight you'll have to do so by stealth.



They're not combat spells, champ, they're murder spells.  As for the rest, what do you think Teleport is for?



You don't *NEED* murder spells.  Guns work fine.

And you can't teleport away from the sniper's bullet because you won't know it's coming.
You don't *NEED* murder spells.  Guns work fine.



You don't *NEED* guns for murder.  Fists work just fine.  ;)

In other words, 'derp'.  It's not that it's the only tool for the job, it's that it's the tool I've decided to use. 

And you can't teleport away from the sniper's bullet because you won't know it's coming.



And how is the sniper gonna know where I'm gonna be to set up to shoot me?  I have Teleport, man.  It works both before and after the crime.  Srsly.  Put a li'l thought into stuff. 
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

You don't *NEED* murder spells.  Guns work fine.



You don't *NEED* guns for murder.  Fists work just fine.  ;)

In other words, 'derp'.  It's not that it's the only tool for the job, it's that it's the tool I've decided to use.



I'd much prefer to use spell slots for things you can't do with technology.

And you can't teleport away from the sniper's bullet because you won't know it's coming.



And how is the sniper gonna know where I'm gonna be to set up to shoot me?  I have Teleport, man.  It works both before and after the crime.  Srsly.  Put a li'l thought into stuff. 



That doesn't stop a security camera from seeing you.
I'd much prefer to use spell slots for things you can't do with technology.



That's great.  You're not me, though, right?  *checks*  Nope - thank whatever imaginary being you feel like thankin'!  Srsly, I have guns.  I do not have spells.  See how this decision is an easy one for me?

That doesn't stop a security camera from seeing you.



So now security cameras can predict where I'm gonna be both before and after a crime?  What's so hard to get about this?  Here, let's try an exercise:

Where am I gonna be in five minutes?  You can pretend you have access to a security camera if you think it'll help you.  ;)
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

I'd much prefer to use spell slots for things you can't do with technology.



That's great.  You're not me, though, right?  *checks*  Nope - thank whatever imaginary being you feel like thankin'!  Srsly, I have guns.  I do not have spells.  See how this decision is an easy one for me?



If you use spells to duplicate tech you're going to be weaker than if you use spells for things tech can't do.

That doesn't stop a security camera from seeing you.



So now security cameras can predict where I'm gonna be both before and after a crime?  What's so hard to get about this?  Here, let's try an exercise:

Where am I gonna be in five minutes?  You can pretend you have access to a security camera if you think it'll help you.  ;)



It's not going to stop your crimes.  It's going to ID you for when they come hunting you.
Wow, this has taken a turn.

I'm generally going to agree that if you can easily do something with technology it probably wouldn't be worth "wasting" a spell on.

While some of you may resort to a life of crime I doubt that would be needed when you could do things no one else could and charge outrageous fees for it.  You know Heal?  You can use it how many times per day?    Considering what it would cure I think you could make a fortune healing certain conditions that are nearly impossible to treat and expensive as all get outs to treat.  Of course the medical establishment may hunt you down for destroying their business and some crooks suppliers may be even less friendly when you shut down their questionable revenue streams.

I'll mention that unless everyone knows what you can do getting caught on a security camera committing a crime is still going to be hard for someone to convict you.  If you have any of the polymorph type stuff you don't even need to look like you.  If you can travel instantaneously you can sure set up 'impossible' ailabies because how you could possibly commit a crime hundred of miles away in a very narrow time frame when many people, and other cameras, saw you somewhere else at that same time.
 
If you use spells to duplicate tech you're going to be weaker than if you use spells for things tech can't do.



Interesting.  Tell me, what tech option do I have to kill people with their own nightmares?  I looked online but haven't been able to find anything as of yet ...

Oh, by the way, while you're playing with your fun spells, I'll be killing you and taking your stuff.  Think about that for a minute.  ;)

It's not going to stop your crimes.  It's going to ID you for when they come hunting you.



CJ, I need you!  Where's that cursed facepalm pic? 

dood, how are you not seeing this?  I don't really care if they ID me.  How are they gonna find me when I can be anywhere and they have literally no way of tracking where in all of anywhere I've up and literally vanished to?  Literally! 

Step 1: Telport into area X.
Step 2: Unleash spell to kill or maim one to many people.
Step 3: Notice security camera.
Step 4: Laugh and wave as I teleport away to an unknown (to anyone but me) location.
Step 5: Repeat.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

Wow, this has taken a turn.

I'm generally going to agree that if you can easily do something with technology it probably wouldn't be worth "wasting" a spell on.

While some of you may resort to a life of crime I doubt that would be needed when you could do things no one else could and charge outrageous fees for it.  You know Heal?  You can use it how many times per day?    Considering what it would cure I think you could make a fortune healing certain conditions that are nearly impossible to treat and expensive as all get outs to treat.  Of course the medical establishment may hunt you down for destroying their business and some crooks suppliers may be even less friendly when you shut down their questionable revenue streams.



Why not do that?  Fair question but one with an answer that's pretty obvious (er, to me): It's bo-to the ring.  Hardcore.  I can make money with murder spells, too.  See, I can charge for my services as well - but I wouldn't cuz that's stoopid.  What I can do, though, which isn't stoopid, is to simply go all - get this - D&D on the world and simply kill peeps and take their stuff.  Kwazy, right? 

I'll mention that unless everyone knows what you can do getting caught on a security camera committing a crime is still going to be hard for someone to convict you.  If you have any of the polymorph type stuff you don't even need to look like you.  If you can travel instantaneously you can sure set up 'impossible' ailabies because how you could possibly commit a crime hundred of miles away in a very narrow time frame when many people, and other cameras, saw you somewhere else at that same time.
 



To be honest, I went a li'l overkill with my list on purpose.  I'd really have utility spells like that so I could either lie or disguise my way out of things - really just an effort to buy time to cast Teleport.  So yeah, I'm with ya - though I do really believe that Teleport is enough. 
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

ZB, you want to prove Chick right?!

You bastard!
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Slagger, just because a gold coin is worth 1 gp (i.e. 1 gp is worth itself) doesn't mean that there is 1 GP of gold in the coin.

Nowhere does it say that melting down 50 gp of gold coins gets you 50 gp in gold, either. Coins never have the full amount of what they represent inside them...it's the fact only a little is included that makes them worthwhile.

And as for bars, in the modern day bars are actually usually purer then coins. However, they are also more targets for fraud (some bars out of a respected exchange in China were found to have tungsten cores, recently).

==Aelryinth      
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
The only type mentioned is physical. Therefore, there is no other type unless stated. Claiming any other type is simply making up rules.

Other types exist implicitly, since there wouldn't be any statement of gaining physical abilities unless there were non-physical ones, and the ruleset draws on our knowledge of real-world ideas to determine what terms like "physical" mean for us.

In addition, racial spellcasting functions almost exactly like regular spellcasting, which is mental, and changing to a physical basis isn't one of the described differences.
So physically making gestures and speaking(Or moving tentacles if you're an ethergaunt) is mental? Jeez, I wonder what it takes for something to be a physical actiong

Some of the activation of the ability is physical, but the spells themselves are something you store inside your head.  Anyone could perform the gestures and words; the functional part is mental.
It's like you thnk that I wouldn't have access to at least second level spells.

I'm simply discussing the general requirements; 2nd-level spells could certainly be added as a step, assuming there are no restrictions on using natural ability scores or needing to have a stable score for a given time.
Slagger, just because a gold coin is worth 1 gp (i.e. 1 gp is worth itself) doesn't mean that there is 1 GP of gold in the coin.

Nowhere does it say that melting down 50 gp of gold coins gets you 50 gp in gold, either. Coins never have the full amount of what they represent inside them...it's the fact only a little is included that makes them worthwhile.

As trade goods go, a single pound of gold costs 50 gp.  Since we're trying to establish a real-world connection to the value of D&D coins, all we need to know is how much of our gold an individual gold coin is worth.

Even if the coin isn't actually pure gold, it has the same value as an equivalent piece of pure gold, so we can calculate our estimates as if it were genuinely pure.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.