Barbarian Hybrids; What are the options.

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Hi there

After building some barbarians on the builder and reading @ this forum, you come to the conclussion that barbarians are at their best if they Hybrid.

Barbarian|Swordmage is a good example. But are there any good other options? Any tricks?
I can imagine fighter or warden will work fine. But I rather want to play something special, then a straight forward barbarian. More like the Barbarian|Swordmage.

Any suggestions? The crazier the better!

Thanks in advance!

 
Thaneborn Barbarian|Cleric with Battle Cleric's Lore and MC'd into Warlord via Resourceful Leader and Bravura Leader is a very flavorful Striker|Leader who functions as a Thaneborn much better than an actual Thaneborn Barbarian ever could.
Bard|barian works pretty well. The two options you mentioned are of course the most common and therefore most op'd ones.
Barb|lord is OK, as well. Generally you can attach every lazy class.
Ward|barian lacks something and Warden|Ranger is better in many ways.

Thaneborn Barbarian|Cleric with Battle Cleric's Lore and MC'd into Warlord via Resourceful Leader and Bravura Leader is a very flavorful Striker|Leader who functions as a Thaneborn much better than an actual Thaneborn Barbarian ever could.



HT: Thaneborn is questionable, at least, tho.  

I think Barb|Sorcerer has a few tricks. It's not as optimizable as the others, but it can certainly put a different spin on the barbarian.
Now you're just saying things to hurt me, scatterbrained.


To the OP, please do not hybrid a sorcerer. They do not take kindly to it.

A Bard|Barbarian works fairly well, as does nearly anything |warlord.
Now you're just saying things to hurt me, scatterbrained.


To the OP, please do not hybrid a sorcerer. They do not take kindly to it.

A Bard|Barbarian works fairly well, as does nearly anything |warlord.



Why would a sorcerer do poorly?  You can get Str to AC (which is pretty decent for a barbarian), and hybrid talent for barbarian agility gives you hide armour and the barbarian bonus AC.  Str/Cha can both be pumped, so you have 2 strong NADs.  Sorcerer bursts/blasts/ranged and barbarian melee means you can function more flexibly.  Figuring out what to wield is a puzzle (sword/dagger?), though M/C swordmage would allow  heavy blade to double as implement and weapon.
Specialization > Flexibility. It just doesn't work well together. At least not well enough for CharOP.
So how should a bard/barbarian look like? Stat/power-wise. I mean, how can they compliment each other? The idea sounds nice and crazy!
If you want to keep the bard part lazy, and therefore don't push Cha at all, Note of Aggression, (Greater) Echoing Weapon, Dimensional Step come to mind.
If you want to go for Str/Cha instead, Rhyme of the Blood-seeking Blade and Couplet of Deceptive Weakness come to mind in addition to the ones mentioned above. You'd need to fix your AC by MCing Cleric, for example, tho, if you choose this way. Or by HT: Bard Armor Prof, which gives you Chain and Light Shield on top, so you could pick a Winged Shield later on without drawbacks. You'd lose HT: Bardic Virtue this way, tho. 
Just mix it with the generic Barbarian encounters like Thundering Howl, Storm of Blades, etc. Those you can just pick out of the Stand and Bang and Bookish Barb threads.


Now you're just saying things to hurt me, scatterbrained.


To the OP, please do not hybrid a sorcerer. They do not take kindly to it.

A Bard|Barbarian works fairly well, as does nearly anything |warlord.

 

Why would a sorcerer do poorly?  You can get Str to AC (which is pretty decent for a barbarian), and hybrid talent for barbarian agility gives you hide armour and the barbarian bonus AC.  Str/Cha can both be pumped, so you have 2 strong NADs.  Sorcerer bursts/blasts/ranged and barbarian melee means you can function more flexibly.  Figuring out what to wield is a puzzle (sword/dagger?), though M/C swordmage would allow  heavy blade to double as implement and weapon.

 

In detail: 
You'd lose your damage feature on any non-Sorc/non-Sorc-PP powers and Sorcerers happen to have excellent Encounter Powers, so no need to hybrid for this reason. You could hybrid a Sorc with lazy classes, tho. But since Sorc|Bard for example would mean you most probably want to go Voice of Thunder (which happens not to be a Sorc PP), you could also pick it by just MCing, keep your damage feature and, if you have to, just swap in golden powers like Note of Aggression, for example. 
A further discrepancy you realized yourself: One of the most adorable powers from a pure Barbarian point of view, Lightning Cuts, doesn't match with the Barbarian's recommended weapon choice.
So, for now, we got the Barbarian|Bard, Barbarian|Warlord and the Bookish Barbarian|Swordmage. The Less offensive Barbarian|Cleric (edit: can be very damaging with morninglord ofcourse) might also be an option. Any more options?

Thanks everybody who posted!
Wow, I'm touched and honored every time the Bookish Barb gets thrown around. I didn't know it had become such a staple It IS a really fun build and I'm heard of great success with a few different variants.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
So, for now, we got the Barbarian|Bard, Barbarian|Warlord and the Bookish Barbarian|Swordmage. The Less offensive Barbarian|Cleric (edit: can be very damaging with morninglord ofcourse) might also be an option. Any more options?

Thanks everybody who posted!


Barbarian|Cleric isn't less offensive at all and picking Morninglord yourself would be a waste. Let the party's Invoker/Avenger pick that part instead. Given you're Genasi, Paragon of Victory would be a much better choice.
And you forgot the Barbarian|Fighter in your list.
Figuring out what to wield is a puzzle (sword/dagger?), though M/C swordmage would allow  heavy blade to double as implement and weapon.

One option is to use a staff and take staff fighting so it counts as a double weapon, then take whirly powers.

Apparently my disclaimer that it was not top optimization material wasn't enough. It still works fine in a mid/low op game throughout heroic, and being able to do stuff like burning spray and flame spiral as a barbarian is pretty fun. Hybrid Sorc isn't bad at all when your stats match up - the real hit you're taking here is not having a gouge or something for your barb powers.

And as long as I'm hurting people's feelings with suboptimal builds, I had a pretty fun Tron-themed Fighter|Barb that used Hurl Weapon to throw Radiant Cutting Wheels around. Barb|Fighter and |Ranger can both do well.
Figuring out what to wield is a puzzle (sword/dagger?), though M/C swordmage would allow  heavy blade to double as implement and weapon.

One option is to use a staff and take staff fighting so it counts as a double weapon, then take whirly powers.

Apparently my disclaimer that it was not top optimization material wasn't enough. It still works fine in a mid/low op game throughout heroic, and being able to do stuff like burning spray and flame spiral as a barbarian is pretty fun. Hybrid Sorc isn't bad at all when your stats match up - the real hit you're taking here is not having a gouge or something for your barb powers.

And as long as I'm hurting people's feelings with suboptimal builds, I had a pretty fun Tron-themed Fighter|Barb that used Hurl Weapon to throw Radiant Cutting Wheels around. Barb|Fighter and |Ranger can both do well.

Does he fight for the users?

No, the real hit Sorc|Barb takes is that they are in general differing optimization strategies, and the Barb aspect doesn't really help the sorc.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!

I really don't like hybriding a Barbarian with a class of another role that needs its Standard Actions to do its job, like the Warlord. At least two Standards should be reserved for the Barbarian multiattacks.


Barbarian |Fighter in general is a viable choice for big weapon builds as well as for those with two weapons. Barbarian|Ranger and Barbarian|Rogue builds can combine Barbarian Multiattacks with Off-Hand Minor Action Attacks that add Quarry/Sneak Attack damage.


I really don't like hybriding a Barbarian with a class of another role that needs its Standard Actions to do its job, like the Warlord. At least two Standards should be reserved for the Barbarian multiattacks.


Barbarian |Fighter in general is a viable choice for big weapon builds as well as for those with two weapons. Barbarian|Ranger and Barbarian|Rogue builds can combine Barbarian Multiattacks with Off-Hand Minor Action Attacks that add Quarry/Sneak Attack damage.




Warlord got many strong powers that don't require a standard and even his standards contribute at least an equal amount of hits as the barbarian's options most of the time.
Barbarian|Ranger works, but is overshadowed a bit by the other options. Barbarian|Rogue doesn't work properly, at all, really.
In general, hybriding two non-lazy classes of the same role doesn't work out too well.

I really don't like hybriding a Barbarian with a class of another role that needs its Standard Actions to do its job, like the Warlord. At least two Standards should be reserved for the Barbarian multiattacks.


Barbarian |Fighter in general is a viable choice for big weapon builds as well as for those with two weapons. Barbarian|Ranger and Barbarian|Rogue builds can combine Barbarian Multiattacks with Off-Hand Minor Action Attacks that add Quarry/Sneak Attack damage.




Warlord got many strong powers that don't require a standard and even his standards contribute at least an equal amount of hits as the barbarian's options most of the time.
Barbarian|Ranger works, but is overshadowed a bit by the other options. Barbarian|Rogue doesn't work properly, at all, really.
In general, hybriding two non-lazy classes of the same role doesn't work out too well.


That's really only true for Strikers, though hybriding Leaders with non-leaders, and Non-Paladin with anything tends to create a Striker.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
@ Zathris: That's really only true for Strikers, though hybriding Leaders with non-leaders, and Non-Paladin with anything tends to create a Striker.

Can you give me an example of the last statement, please?
Barbarian|Warlord works perfectly fine through non-standard action Warlord encounter powers too. You start with Powerful Warning, which is better than any Level 1 Barbarian power, Level 3 is obvious, Thundering Howl, and Level 7 you pick up Join the Crowd, which typically works as a double tap and is better than Curtain of Steel, level 13 you swap Powerful Warning for Storm of Blows, and you're good to go. Barbarian Dailies pretty much suck, so anything you pick up from Warlord is an improvement. And your Warlord at-will is Direct the Strike, to use when you're weakened, restrained, or otherwise in the penalty box. Barbarian|Warlord is a solid hybrid.
@ Zathris: That's really only true for Strikers, though hybriding Leaders with non-leaders, and Non-Paladin with anything tends to create a Striker.

Can you give me an example of the last statement, please?


Most defenders end up being Strikers in effect anyway, except Paladins who remain Defenders, and Swordmages who become rather hard Controllers.

Battlemind gets Lightning Rush in heroic and Brutal Barrage in Paragon, Fighter has RoB in Heroic and reliable IA attacks, as well as Battle Fury Stance, Swordmage has Multi-attacks and very reliable IAs starting in Heroic, Warden has Wildblood Frenzy and quite a few damage bonuses. Best PP choices all involve more attacks and/or more damage. Now, aside from the BM, you're not looking at top striker numbers, but you also have generally better hp/defs/control.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Thank you very much for the clarification!

So to sum things up.

Combine the Barbarian with a "Lazy" class or a "multi-attack" class (a class with multi-attack powers). Get as much dailies from the non-barbarian class and you are good to go.

Next quick thing. For multi-attacking; Frost-cheese, Genasi Firewind-blade or Morninglord?
 
I'd suggest to find someone else to play a Morninglord for you if you want to go the radiant route. Then again, I'm really not sure what the optimal PP for a barbarian is supposed to be. I tried Kensei once and the passive +1 to hit/+4 to damage were nice to have. Charging Juggernauts have their racial PP but otherwise I really don't know what to take.
Thank you very much for the clarification!

So to sum things up.

Combine the Barbarian with a "Lazy" class or a "multi-attack" class (a class with multi-attack powers). Get as much dailies from the non-barbarian class and you are good to go.

Next quick thing. For multi-attacking; Frost-cheese, Genasi Firewind-blade or Morninglord?
 



Why not combine all three?

It's almost always better for YOU, if someone else plays Morninglord, since that makes many things easier, due to Morninglord F16's wording, which requires the power that places the vulnerability on the target, to already be radiant at the moment you hit. So there's a timing problem with Crown of the Brilliant Sun. -> expect table variation. Avengers could solve that problem with 2 feats, for nearly everyone else that'd lock your ED slot. However, if you aren't the one that picked Morninglord, things get a lot less complicated.
Genasi is the best choice of course, since they happen to get fire + lighnting + radiant + 8 stackable damage for the cost of 3 feats and 1 item. You could even stack Frostcheese on top by using whetstones, if you wish and aren't already ashamed about how broken this is.
Genasi got the luxury that they don't have to choose an elemental PP and can totally focus on getting moar multiattacks via PP.

It's also better for YOUR PARTY, if not the single-target high op striker is the Morninglord, since you will kill most targets in your turn, without your party even profiting from the applied vulnerability.
Best choice for the party's Morninglord is without a question Invoker, since he spreads vulnerability over the whole field without killing and while heavily controlling and got totally ridiculous radiant support in Epic, which will raise radiant vul even more. Wizard and Avenger are strong options, as well, the latter got the same problem as the barbarian, tho, since he tends to kill things in a split second while being single targetting.

I'd suggest to find someone else to play a Morninglord for you if you want to go the radiant route. Then again, I'm really not sure what the optimal PP for a barbarian is supposed to be. I tried Kensei once and the passive +1 to hit/+4 to damage were nice to have. Charging Juggernauts have their racial PP but otherwise I really don't know what to take.



Genasi Barb|Cleric/PoV or even more Barb|Fighter/MC BCL/PoV (cheesy but possible by RAW) are pretty nice options.

In general, hybriding two non-lazy classes of the same role doesn't work out too well.

Well, that's the reason for combining the Barb with Strikers that got enough Minor Action Attacks. The Barbarian doesn't have too much use for Minor Actions by itself, and Tumbling Strike is such a wonderful approach power.



Barb|Swordmage, Barb|Cleric and Barb|Fighter are better overall, but both Rogue and Ranger Hybrids work well enough.


In general, hybriding two non-lazy classes of the same role doesn't work out too well.

Well, that's the reason for combining the Barb with Strikers that got enough Minor Action Attacks. The Barbarian doesn't have too much use for Minor Actions by itself, and Tumbling Strike is such a wonderful approach power.



Barb|Swordmage, Barb|Cleric and Barb|Fighter are better overall, but both Rogue and Ranger Hybrids work well enough.




I had the same discussion yesterday in IRC and am still convinced of my statement.
Yes, you're totally right about Tumbling Strike's awesomeness of movementgranting + hit as a minor.
Anyway, let's check the pros/cons of Barb|Rogue:




- -1 hit due to even stat split (at least Bookish Barb having the same prob, tho)

- forced into light blades: low damage die (even more if you choose Kensei, which would force      you into 2 daggers or eat your HT for Whirling Slayer)

- no Sneak attack damage on granted attacks, OAs, non-rogue IAs and therefore worse than pure Rogue in an alpha-striking party with an enabling leader

- no Firewind Blade without picking Versatile Duelist, which will negate the accuracy noted under advantages

- Str/Dex being not so good for radiant mafia

- late Superior Will




+ up to two turns of Sneak Attack damage, depends on if you want to use your 2 minors      subsequently or not. You might say that's good for alpha-striking parties that end combats in 2 turns, but it isn't, see above.

+ fitting stats for enhanced crit range (although not that important on a non-critfisher)

+ no AC problems that would have to be fixed

+ SoB, HoB (the latter not being of too much relevance, due to late epic)

+ as accurate as it can get, due to HT and Light Blade support 
 





So, all this build would gain over a properly built single class Rogue in paragon is a triple-hitter, instead of a two-targetting double-hitter, which would be good trade in most cases. Wouldn't he just lose so much in the process, notably SA on all off-turn attacks other than rogue IAs (which would be debatable to pick, at least, given the choice of powers; anyway, doesn't matter since you will always have a max of 2 SA/enc via enc powers, no matter what powers you pick) and a feat for HT.

All this build would gain over one of the usual high-op Barbarian hybrids is 1-2 turns of SA and 2 minors (that can easily be obtained otherwise by nearly any other Barbarian hybrid + there's a upper limit of minors you should have anyway, due to action economy and combats not lasting more than 2-4 rounds).

So, i'll always stick with either Rogue or Barb|[no rogue].



With the Barbarian|Ranger it's similar. You're kinda forced into Str/Dex if you don't want to waste precious feat slots. The Ranger contributes stellar Dailies and stuff but if you see it from the Ranger's perspective, it's even more pointless to hybrid Barbarian, as with the Rogue. All the Ranger gets from the Barbarian is a triple hitter at 13 instead of just having a double-targetting double-hitter by 7! The ranger really gains nothing by hybriding Barb (and no, HoB is not a valid argument). Compare it with a Ranger|Cleric with HT:CD: this fellow gets to stay Str/Wis, pick all 3 enc powers from Ranger while receiving all the other awesomeness that is Cleric hybriding. Why should this guy hybrid Barb instead?
Thematically Barb|Sorc really ought to work
@pinkisthenewred: I'd say the topic question was not if a Ranger, Ranger|Something or Rogue is better than a Barbarian, but which Barbarian Hybrids work. A Barb|Rogue might be worse than a pure Rogue. The question is, is it worse than a pure Barb? Same for the Barb|Ranger.
The question is, is it worse than a pure Barb?



Listing all Barbarian hybrids that are better than pure Barb will create a pretty long list. So, in the OP's interests, we should just list combinations where both classes truely complement each other.
Barb|Rogue is worse than straight Barbarian.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
The question is, is it worse than a pure Barb?



Listing all Barbarian hybrids that are better than pure Barb will create a pretty long list. So, in the OP's interests, we should just list combinations where both classes truely complement each other.



Without trying to offend someone his input in this thread, I have to agree with pinkisthenewred. 
Barb|Rogue is worse than straight Barbarian.


Debatable. Versatile Duelist kinda saves it, since without FWB, your static mods would be really bad, compared to straight Barb. It's pretty feat starved compared to pure Barb, yes, has -1 hit, lower weapon die and has to decide between +3 AC/Ref and 1/enc free charge. 
On the other side you get minors, 1-2x SA and strong Dailies. But i agree, it's kinda close, while tending to be worse, since losing 3 AC/Ref or the free charge/enc and -1 Hit and having to waste all those feats hurts a lot. 
Pure Barb got triple-hit, double-tap and IA by 13, so yeah, you'd probably be better off by just picking some minor by other ways, go for gnoll encountercharge stuff later on with your saved feats and stay straight barb, instead of going Barb|Rogue, but it's really close.
Barb|Rogue is worse than straight Barbarian.



Gonna have to agree. Straight Barb gets you an AC feature, 1 extra hp/level, and free charge/enc. Free charge/enc alone is actually enough to trump 2 Sneak Attacks, since those sum up to about 1.5 MBAs total.

If you wanted minor action attacks, you should be powerswapping. Note that Tumbling Strike does NOT have a light blade usage requirement. 
Theres also the thematic issues in my head of a Barbarian|Rogue ;)
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
It worked for Conan.

Though, I suppose technically he was more of a Fighter/Rogue.
A ninja-fanatic - not too rare in HK Action Movies.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Thanks for all the input, once again!

So for now, the top picks are:

Barbarian|Bard (Lazy part of it, or str/cha build)
Barbarian|Warlord (Lazy or not Lazy, riders gonna be pretty bad if you want to use them, unless Str/wis|int|cha build)
Barbarian|Swordmage (Genasi only choice here and what a great choice indeed!)
Barbarian|Fighter (Rain of blows and good dailies)
Barbarian|Cleric (Tanky as hell and Morninglord/Paragon of Victory option)

Still debatable:
Barbarian|Ranger (You prolly will end up using twin strike anyway)
Barbarian|Rogue  (The minor action attacks might make it worth it)


 
I'd go with |Cleric or |Warlord (cha secondary) to be self-sufficient
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I'd go with |Cleric or |Warlord (cha secondary) to be self-sufficient



What race do you propose in the case of the cleric? The Barbarian|Warlord (str/cha) I presume a Dragonborn? 
Why would it be Dragonborn? Dwarf/Mul or Genasi.
Why would it be Dragonborn? Dwarf/Mul or Genasi.



Ah yes ofcourse, there is no warlord attack that uses cha. So aslong it has Str-boost it is fine.

^^ I little DOH! moment.

That can also be the same for the Cleric ofcourse. Genasi is just so good with Shocking Flame. 
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