Casters and Caddies: The Myth vs Reality.

According to some there is not point in playing anything that is not a spell caster in classic versions of D&D before 2008.We all know spell casters were borked in 3rd ed with CoDzilla and that was just using the PHB. For some strange unknown reason though in 3rd ed the most popular class in my games was ... the fighter. In concept the 3rd ed fighter was great and if you like 3rd and 4th ed odds are you like feats and the fighter gets lots of them. Pathfinder hands out feats every 2 levels instead of 3 so Mr Fighter now gets 20 feats over 20 levels. I am the eternal DM and as a general rule I am not that worried about balance as long as it is not to extreme or game wrecking. A quick trip to the char op boards can quickly reveal what is good and what is not. However this ignores one very important rule.


1. Not everyone is a power gamer.


That is a very simple rule. My players often joke about my encounters for example. Is it pre published or is it one of my own concoctions? Put simply published adventures of D&D are often on the easy side of things. You do not need a powerful PC to do them and have fun. The old AD&D ones more or less assumed you rolled 3d6 and dropped the lowest, 3rd ed assumed you had a party of 4 and had a 15 or so as your highest score. The other thing is not every group allows splat books or allows everyone to use whatever they like which may have been a thing 4th ed violated with the everything is core mentality which kind of implies you are allowed to use it. I spent 12 years playing 3rd ed and Pathfinder, got a bit burned out on it and at the end of last year ran AD&D for my d20 era players thinking they would hate it and I was surprised they liked it although they struggled with THACO and some of the ass back wards mechanics. Excluding DM stuff here is what I tend to allow in my games for my players.


AD&D
PHB
Compete Fighters Handbook
Tome of Magic
Wizards Handboook
Spells and Magic (parts of it)
Combat and Tactics (parts of it)


3rd ed.
PHB
Complete Warrior, Arcane, Divine Adventurer,
Spell Compendium
Magic Item Compendium
PHB2


And even then I do not allow everything from those books so no persistent spell etc. I like giving my PCs a reasonable amount of options and I have a large pile of extra splats they may be allowed to use things from on a case by case basis. So casters vs caddies myth may be in trouble at this point. I do not allow everything into the game and even then things are different between editions of D&D as an AD&D wizard for example is very dependent on the DM putting in spell scrolls and books for what access to spells he actually has. AD&D magic resistance and classes also function differently than 3rd ed ones.


Not everyone (or very few) people actually play high level D&D and people talk about a sweet spot which is usually around level 5 and 6 hence the E6 variant in Pathfinder where the game is capped at level 6. The highlight of 4th ed for me was around level 3 and 4 and in some ways a 1st level 4th ed PC was similar to a 3rd level 3.5 character. An old TSR survey actually revealed IIRC that most players do not actually play high level D&D. That may have had something to do with the fact that it may take you years to actually reach those levels in AD&D and it may take you 4-7 adventures to gain a level due to the way the xp tables worked. Most of the classic/good adventures in D&D are actually for low level and mid level PCs and those were the ones that sold. Keep on the Borderlands for example sold 1 million copies. Level 10+ adventures were mostly rare and apparently did not ell as well as low level ones. This is mostly due to the difference between how people think the game is played and how it is actually played. A level 18 wizard with level 9 spells probably was broken but odds are most gamers never saw it and AD&D wizards were not as broken as 3rd ed wizards. It is interesting that 13th Age only goes to level 10 by what I have been hearing about the game.


Finally I am the DM 90%+ of the time. If something is actually broken I often ban it so no your 3rd Ed Druid can't use natural spell. The last time I ran a homebrew campaign using Pathfinder it was on a sister world of Golarion. The Red Mantis Assassins were actively hunting and purging primary spellcasters and a house rule I used was you had to find a mentor to even become a wizard/cleric/druid. Think Jedi in Star Wars with the Sith hunting them and Luke becoming a Jedi after he meets Ben. One had to take 2 levels of another class 1st before multiclassing into a spellcaster and you required a mentor. I also dumped magic mart and used AD&D rules for magic items so one could not buy wands of CLW.


So while their may have been a backlash against 3rd ed CoDzilla it may not have been a problem for everyone for various reasons. Not everyone is a power gamer, uses every splatbook they can find or even plays high level D&D/AD&D. In some cases if something is actually broken enough for the DM to care enough he can fix it himself or even allow it if that is what the DM and the players actually like. Balance has never really been a major factor in D&D for these reasons ad people still pick fighters even in 3rd ed and in that system they seemed very popular. Pathfinder is not that balanced either although it is better than 3rd ed and it seems popular enough. Casters and Caddies may be a problem but there are t many variables in D&D mechanics, play styles, house rules and on the actual table to make it relevant for every gamer. Can it exist? I suppose so if you like abusing rules or try and do the most powerful thing all of the time. This is related to the "feel" of D&D and how people actually play the game.

 4th ed for example being balanced was not a major selling point of the system for me and it seems everyone who plays Pathfinder and AD&D. I do not want 3rd ed levels of balance all over again but I find it fun one can have a spell casting Druid+pet+wild shape in AD&D and not warp the game around him like a 3rd ed Druid can. Casters and Caddies has never really been a major problem for me except maybe in 3.0 when I did see things like Shadow Adepts and Cleric archers kicking around with DC35-40+ spells and 1d8+25 damage and 6 shots type of abuse. 3.5 fixed the worst excesses and PF nerfed spellcasters again so it is making progress. For some groups for whatever reason Casters and Caddies is exactly that a myth and no amount of math will convince them otherwise or they may even be happy with it. D&DN is focusing on balance more than 3rd ed and it is fine by me as they are making a reasonable effort of making a decent version of D&D.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

In my experience the higher level you start your game, the more likely you are to see the 'Caster and Caddie' syndrome.

I mean if you are a second level Wizard you are not going to be Flying Invisible with Stoneskin are you. 

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In my 1e and AD&D days, I played a wizard, and was able to get one wizard up to 12th level (we never really leveled much beyond 10th in those days).

I always felt like I needed my buddies, and I remember having to throw daggers for little to no damage on a number of occasions. None of the other players ever felt as if they were 2nd fiddle, in fact, I think the Ranger and the Bard both felt like they were more important to the party than I was. Part of the reason why it didn't feel like casters and caddies is because the DM didn't allow it to feel that way. I don't know how he did it, but he made each of us feel important at different times during our campaign.

Even with 3e, 3.5, when I DMd, I never had anyone in the groups feel as if they were overshadowed by the wizard. In fact, in one of my campaigns the human wizard player was the only one to die. The others had him reincarnated and he came back as a half-orc wizard. It was a terrifc roleplaying opportunity and it made the game more enjoyable.

A Brave Knight of WTF

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

In my experience the higher level you start your game, the more likely you are to see the 'Caster and Caddie' syndrome.

I mean if you are a second level Wizard you are not going to be Flying Invisible with Stoneskin are you. 



 We had an all archmage campaign once starting at level 18 or so in 2nd ed. My wizzie died to a power word liquify spell while sitting on the john. A power word in the date kinda suck. Just as well I had several clones.

 If everyone is broken it is kind f baanced. Its like vinatge in MtG with the power 9 being legal. 

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Zardnaar.
I love the Fighter. It has always been my favorite class. That is until I played 3e. Then I carried the luggage after level 8. So I tried the Paladin. I carried the golf bag at level 6. So I tried the Barbarian, and like Homer Simpson was killed by an elf.- while carrying the wizards backpack, literally as his caddy. This caused me, a fighter lover to completely abandon the 3E. D20 system, I never played wotc D&D again. Casters totally outshine martials from the double digits on. Casters and caddy syndrome as far as my experience goes is true. Innocent
More or less agree with you Brightmantle not a fan of  3rd ed CoDzilla. Other people hae different experiences though or houseruled the crap outta the game. Or did not play past level 10 etc.

 Casters and caddies might exist depending on edition/playstyle/DM etc. Or it might not YMMV. 3.0 was really borked as well worse than 3.5 due to haste, Spelldancer, Incantrix, Red Wizard and Shadow Apedt prestige classes and the presistant spell feat. How much of that was available at every table IDK.  There are actually a lot of differences between 3.0,3.5, and PF. I suspect if they ever do PF2 they will rewrite the classes, spells and tidy up the mechanics while leaving most of the basic stuff alone.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I hear that the 4e fighter kicked much butt. However I never got to play the game, and now it's dead and I can't even find a seat at an encounters game in my area. Iv'e tried. I also understand that if I buy the 4e. books it's mostly useless because there is 27 pages of errata that render it moot. This forces one to pay to play as a D&D monthly fee for modern rules- screw that noise. I'll never pay to play monthly. Man I can play DDO for free, LOTRO for free, and now beta test Neverwinter for free. But wotc expects us to pay for rules for books we already own? er...
I just don't think this post should be here. Different peoples' opinions on this subject will not align. I know that I never saw the game become Casters and Caddies in 2e (though, looking back at the rules, that might be because we never played passed level 12). I did, however, see multiple games of 3e (and 3.5e) become Casters and Caddies. I stopped using 3.5e D&D as a result. d20 Modern (run as a D&D game) worked better, at least to my tastes. Ultimately, however, who cares? None of these games are D&DN. Shouldn't we focus on the current state of D&DN, and how we can make it a better game?



my first D&D game ever was 2e, and we had a Human Ranger, an elf Fighter/Theif, a half elf Bard, an elf wizard and a Human Cleric. We had 0 problems through 16 levels (2-18)

2 years later the first of my group went to collage. We set up a roleplaying club in the cafe and every friday night more and more people showed up.


Now in that 2 years we ran many campaigns with many casters 0 problems.


then the game at the school... One guy showed up and played a Human Ranger for 2 levels, then took a duil class (first time any of us saw that) into wizard. He gave us a few problems, but it was always 'creative' uses of spells.


that player then came into our other games (and became a good friend for 10 years) but the next game he was in, he did the same thing (this time just straight wizard).  This second wizard was the real problem for us. see this game we leveled fast, and were started at level 4 or 5 and got a level every game until level 15... big problems showed up. We got a bunch of scrolls, a ring of wizardy, and a pearl or two of power, he would scry and die targets... mind you this is 1997 I had never been to a 'char op' board.


that character totaly changed everything. the player in quastion was a true power gamer, but once he showed us what level he was playing at (and evn though he was the first he was far from the last) we all kept trying to keep up.


For years we played casters. Some multi classed some duil classed, some straight.  I alone played Antra the Dark (Drow wizard/theif) Captian Arko (elven Bladesinger)  Darrian Drake tooth (human  thief 7 or 8 (what ever level was 3x back stab) then wizard) and Brand (human Ranger 7/ wizard spellfire)  in those games total I can count 2 non casters (inless you count psions)one was in the antra game and that was a fighter/theif who use to joke he was my 'lovely assistant' and a very kick ass fighter in the brand game that use to beg me to not cast any spells this encounter



in 2001 we switched to 3e and found things get worse... we had to house rule ALOT just to stop us from going caster crazy.


by the time 4e was being announced we found our house rule perfection. use warmage, and dread necromancer, and begauiler instead of wizard. Use warblade and sword sage instead of figher...      

Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?

Howdy folks,

Cyber-Dave is correct in that this thread is destined for bad things, namely edition warring, so I'll be closing it now.  Let's focus on D&D Next feedback and use previous editions to inform that feedback, not rehash old arguments about various editions.

Thanks.  

All around helpful simian