Warlord is gone. Are there any other 4E classes that are on the chopping block?

4E introduced a number of classes and I'm wondering how many, if any, might we see return in 5E. So of the following (I think they were all introduced in 4E, although I may be wrong about one or two of them), has anyone heard what the final fate of these classes might be?



  • Ardent

  • Artificer

  • Avenger

  • Battlemind

  • Invoker

  • Runepriest

  • Shaman

  • Seeker

  • Swordmage

  • Warden


I don't know about anyone else, but I'm hoping the Swordmage and the Warden stick around, although I have no clue what possible shape those two classes might take in 5E.

Warden became a subclass of paladin(bleh). Hopefully we will see a swordmage of some sort, but at this point who knows.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

Warden became a subclass of paladin(bleh). Hopefully we will see a swordmage of some sort, but at this point who knows.



Warden makes sense to me as a paladin type. Warden is a crusader for nature (or a nature god).
Warden became a subclass of paladin(bleh). Hopefully we will see a swordmage of some sort, but at this point who knows.



Warden makes sense to me as a paladin type. Warden is a crusader for nature (or a nature god).



No, just no.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

Warden became a subclass of paladin(bleh). Hopefully we will see a swordmage of some sort, but at this point who knows.



Warden makes sense to me as a paladin type. Warden is a crusader for nature (or a nature god).



No, just no.



Agreed. As a big Warden fan, I think Druid and Barbarian both make much more sense as the "super-class" of Warden, than the Paladin.
4E only introduced about half of the classes on this list: Avenger, Invoker, Runepriest, Seeker, and Warden. The Ardent and Artificer were introduced in 3E. The Battlemind, Shaman, and Swordmage were just new names for classes that already existed previously, the Psychic Warrior, Spirit Shaman, and Duskblade (and every other Gish base class ever) respectively.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Warden became a subclass of paladin(bleh). Hopefully we will see a swordmage of some sort, but at this point who knows.



Warden makes sense to me as a paladin type. Warden is a crusader for nature (or a nature god).



No, just no.



Agreed. As a big Warden fan, I think Druid and Barbarian both make much more sense as the "super-class" of Warden, than the Paladin.



The warden was the yin to the barbarians yang.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

Yeah, but Wardens and Paladins aren't at all alike.
I think it was already confirmed that Artificers are going to be in 5e.
4E only introduced about half of the classes on this list: Avenger, Invoker, Runepriest, Seeker, and Warden. The Ardent and Artificer were introduced in 3E. The Battlemind, Shaman, and Swordmage were just new names for classes that already existed previously, the Psychic Warrior, Spirit Shaman, and Duskblade (and every other Gish base class ever) respectively.

I'd prefer to see a truer "gish" class such as PF's magus or 4e swordmage over anthing 3.X offered.

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I'd prefer to see a truer "gish" class such as PF's magus or 4e swordmage over anthing 3.X offered.

Not sure what you mean by "truer". Duskblade seemed pretty darn gishy to me. It even shared quite a bit in common with Pathfinder's Magus.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
I think it was already confirmed that Artificers are going to be in 5e.



It'd be wierd if it didnt show up anywhere. I mean, Eberron was in both 3.5 and 4e.
I think it was already confirmed that Artificers are going to be in 5e.



It'd be wierd if it didnt show up anywhere. I mean, Eberron was in both 3.5 and 4e.



it may not make the core books, but a good chance in eberron campaign setting materials.
4E only introduced about half of the classes on this list: Avenger, Invoker, Runepriest, Seeker, and Warden. The Ardent and Artificer were introduced in 3E. The Battlemind, Shaman, and Swordmage were just new names for classes that already existed previously, the Psychic Warrior, Spirit Shaman, and Duskblade (and every other Gish base class ever) respectively.

I'd prefer to see a truer "gish" class such as PF's magus or 4e swordmage over anthing 3.X offered.




This is the one class I'd like to see in the PHB in Next which hasn't ever been there before.

It's the obviously missing pairing, a mix of Wizard and Fighter (but actually made to work as multiclass characters don't really).

Otherwise these should all be expansion or setting book material.

Of course, I'm not convinced that they made the right decision with the Warlord.  I'm going to have to look at it in 4th Edition in detail at some stage, but it sounds like it made a concept which several of my gaming group have always wanted to play a reality at the table.     
4E only introduced about half of the classes on this list: Avenger, Invoker, Runepriest, Seeker, and Warden. The Ardent and Artificer were introduced in 3E. The Battlemind, Shaman, and Swordmage were just new names for classes that already existed previously, the Psychic Warrior, Spirit Shaman, and Duskblade (and every other Gish base class ever) respectively.

I'd prefer to see a truer "gish" class such as PF's magus or 4e swordmage over anthing 3.X offered.




This is the one class I'd like to see in the PHB in Next which hasn't ever been there before.

It's the obviously missing pairing, a mix of Wizard and Fighter (but actually made to work as multiclass characters don't really).

Otherwise these should all be expansion or setting book material.

Of course, I'm not convinced that they made the right decision with the Warlord.  I'm going to have to look at it in 4th Edition in detail at some stage, but it sounds like it made a concept which several of my gaming group have always wanted to play a reality at the table.     


Obviously you would need to read 4th yourself to be sure, but basically the warlord was somewhere between a marshal and a non-magical bard. Some limited combat capabilities, some tactical battlefield manipulation, some inspirational buffs, and of course the ever controversial non magical healing - pushing their allies to shake it off and keep fighting inspite of their wounds. Whether granting actual HP was a good way to represent that concept depends who you ask. But the idea of the class sure is cool. With what it sounds like subclasses are turning into, I'm warming up to the idea of warlord being a fighter or bard subclass. Still wish it could get it's own base class, but some warlord is better than no warlord in my opinion.
Warlord isn't gone, it's just a martial class.

and by martial, i mean fighter.
and by class i mean sub-class.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Warlord isn't gone, it's just a martial class. and by martial, i mean fighter. and by class i mean sub-class.



*peeks under the carpet*
"Oh, THAT'S where they swept it."
Warlord isn't gone, it's just a martial class. and by martial, i mean fighter. and by class i mean sub-class.


That's not a bad thing. I like the idea of class and subclass

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Warlord isn't gone, it's just a martial class. and by martial, i mean fighter. and by class i mean sub-class.


That's not a bad thing. I like the idea of class and subclass




It's better when it is done right.  Having things like the Barbarian(read: Fighter with a Rage Gimick) or Sorcerer(read: Alternate Casting Mechanic: The Class) as full classes while other classes that differ from their parent class just as much are subclasses doesn't make any sense.
CORE MORE, NOT CORE BORE!
The ardent and battlemind may end up as subclasses of the psion, whenever that class is done. I wouldn't be surprised if they're given different names, though.


Apparently an artificer will happen, but not necessarily in the original game. Possibly a wizard subclass.

The avenger, to me, looks like a perfect fit as a paladin subclass, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it appear in 5e soon.

The invoker was an attempt to make something of the divine controller intersection in 4e. Since power sources and roles are gone from 5e, Wizards aren't obliged to make it. The cleric of the Arcanist or Stormcaller subtype is probably the closest you'll get.

The runepriest is most likely to show up, in whatever form, as part of a supplement dedicated or partially dedicated to rune magic. 5e's Tome of Magic, perhaps.  

The shaman is very likely to become a druid subclass. If the seeker is included, it'll probably be another druid subclass in a supplement based on nature-oriented classes.

I fully expect to see a gish class, whether it's called the swordmage or something else. 

The warden is currently a paladin subclass, but there's talk of it being moved over to the barbarian.

Of course, all of this is speculation and I could be proven wrong by Wizards at any time. 
 
I'm about the biggest Invoker fan there is, and even I don't think that that needs to be a distinct class. There's something interesting to the idea of a divine spellcaster that isn't spending part of its power budget on access to efficient, reliable healing, but not something that interesting, and it's not like "doesn't have access to efficient, reliable healing" is a very core part of the Invoker's identity to begin with.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
The invoker was just a cleric that traded heals and buffs for more damage.

Cause Fear, Flamestrike, insect plauge, blade barrier, earthquake, firestorm...  That needs expanded a bit, but otherwise it was the same. 

And it was also not god dependant getting power from within.  Effectivly the divine sorcerer.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Is there a function to this thread beyond edition warring?  I can't find any.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Warden became a subclass of paladin(bleh). Hopefully we will see a swordmage of some sort, but at this point who knows.



Warden makes sense to me as a paladin type. Warden is a crusader for nature (or a nature god).


Isn't that a Ranger?



The Warden is the person who stands up proudly as the champion of Nature - just as the Paladin is for a good deity, and the blackguard of an evil cause. The Green Knight, to their White Knight and Black Knight. The Ranger doesn't do standing up proudly - they're Nature's stealthy chapions, achieving their aims through stealth and quick lethality. The Avenger and (magical) Assassin could fill the same roles for Good/Evil churches. A Barbarian in the D&D sense is different from either, I would suggest.

These, in the day when heaven was falling, The hour when earth's foundations fled, Followed their mercenary calling, And took their wages, and are dead. Playing: Legendof Five Rings, The One Ring, Fate Core. Planning: Lords in the Eastern Marches, Runequest in Glorantha. 

Is there a function to this thread beyond edition warring? I can't find any.

I actually haven't seen any edition warring in this thread, surprisingly. But now that you jynxed it...

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Is there a function to this thread beyond edition warring? I can't find any.

I actually haven't seen any edition warring in this thread, surprisingly. But now that you jynxed it...



Yeah it was going along as a pleasant conversation until your post Mand.
Warden became a subclass of paladin(bleh). Hopefully we will see a swordmage of some sort, but at this point who knows.



Warden makes sense to me as a paladin type. Warden is a crusader for nature (or a nature god).


Isn't that a Ranger?



The Warden is the person who stands up proudly as the champion of Nature - just as the Paladin is for a good deity, and the blackguard of an evil cause. The Green Knight, to their White Knight and Black Knight. The Ranger doesn't do standing up proudly - they're Nature's stealthy chapions, achieving their aims through stealth and quick lethality. The Avenger and (magical) Assassin could fill the same roles for Good/Evil churches. A Barbarian in the D&D sense is different from either, I would suggest.



Still, the Paladin is not the place for the Warden. There are many features that just don't make sense such as Aura of Courage, Divne Sense, Channel Divinity, or the Special Mount. None of this was ever present with the 4E Warden and it doesn't mesh with what's already been established. As much as I utterly despie Druids going back to divine spellcasting (because that makes LOADS of sense ) I can still see the Warden falling under the Druid as a Sub-Class. Change out the spellcasting (making it go to maybe 5th level) and give him a good Weapon Attack progression (like the Fighter or Paladin) and some Wildshape abilities that resemble a more Warden-like aspect and your starting to get close to what it originally represented.
Warden - the name - works fine as a paladin.

Warden - the 4e class - would fit better under barbarian, with defensive rages. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Defensive Rages?

"Oh, so you're saying I DO look day in this armor?!?"

Well, alright. I'm in.
I fully expect Avenger to find itself welded into the "Chaotic Good Oath" slot of the Paladin Class.  I'm hoping they do something fun with the Swordmage though and my girlfriend was a really big Shaman fan, so I hope the class doesn't lose too much of its charm when it gets folded into Druid.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

I'd prefer to see a truer "gish" class such as PF's magus or 4e swordmage over anthing 3.X offered.

Not sure what you mean by "truer". Duskblade seemed pretty darn gishy to me. It even shared quite a bit in common with Pathfinder's Magus.

It has more to do with how the martial and magical features interact. The PF Magus and 4e Swordmage had actions they could take that directly mixed the two. I am specifically referring to the arcane pool the magus can spend to augment their martial attacks, and the swordmage powers that had magical effects as part of a weapon attack. IIRC, the duskblade didn't really have much of that (I'll have to look, it has been a while).

Edit: I'm assuming this is an "official" version of the duskblade? In that case, the feature "Arcane Channeling" is pretty gish-y, allowing you to add a touch spell into a normal weapon attack. So I'll stand corrected

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It has more to do with how the martial and magical features interact. The PF Magus and 4e Swordmage had actions they could take that directly mixed the two. I am specifically referring to the arcane pool the magus can spend to augment their martial attacks, and the swordmage powers that had magical effects as part of a weapon attack. IIRC, the duskblade didn't really have much of that (I'll have to look, it has been a while).

I'm not sure what you're talking about. The Duskblade totally had at least that one major feature, Arcane Channeling, where it could deliver spells that were touch attacks along with its weapon attacks. I'd even wager that the Pathfinder's Magus's similar Spellstrike feature was rather shamelessly ripped off from what the Duskblade did. The Duskblade also had a fair number of swift action spells that directly augmented its weapon attacks.

EDIT: Whoops, I was posting before your Edit.
But yeah, Duskblade was officially printed in 3.5's PHB2. 

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4E introduced a number of classes and I'm wondering how many, if any, might we see return in 5E.

Expect none as recognizable full classes.  You might have a build or sub-class or two, re-cycling the name, like the Warden as LN Paladin.


So of the following (I think they were all introduced in 4E, although I may be wrong about one or two of them),

4e really added very few classes.  The Artificer, Shaman, and Swordmage had all had earilier incarnations of some sort (if only as a kit or some other option).  Others covered concepts that had been done before under different names as classes or PC classes:  Battlemind = Psychic Warrior, for instance, or the Seeker which was in some ways just the old spellcasting ranger taken to an extreme.

 

 

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The warlord really hasn´t gone, only changed. The system of subclasses allow playing archetypes like true classes.

Example:

Class Figther, with class features: A, B,C,D and E.

Subclass Warlord, with class features F,G,H, I and J.


The player can create a fighter with some class features from subclass, or with all class features from subclass.

For example Fighter/marshall - class features, A,G,C,I and E.
                    Figther/ensign    - class features F,B,H,D and J. 
 

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

Yeah, as far as the actual new classes 4e introduced, there aren't that many.  Warlord, Avenger, Invoker, and Runepriest are it, I think.  Depends on how much you think the Invoker is distinct from things like Favored Soul - which, I think, it is.  Warlord and Avenger are new.  Runepriest may have existed before, but I don't know from what if it did.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Yeah, as far as the actual new classes 4e introduced, there aren't that many.  Warlord, Avenger, Invoker, and Runepriest are it, I think.  Depends on how much you think the Invoker is distinct from things like Favored Soul - which, I think, it is.  Warlord and Avenger are new.  Runepriest may have existed before, but I don't know from what if it did.

The Marshal may have been an awful class, but it was conceptually in the same vein as the Warlord.  The Invoker is just a cleric without healing and with a different spell list - quite do-able under the 2e CPH, for instance - similarly the RunePriest could have been just another speciality cleric.  Not new, conceptually, but a new name.  The Avenger name (maybe it was 'Holy Avenger') had been used before -  a Dragon "unofficial NPC class" or non-LG pally or something at some point - and light/un-armored zealots appeared as a PrC or few in 3e.  

Between Kits, speciality priests, "unnofficial NPC classes" and hundreds of 3.x PrCs, I doubt there was a genuinely-new class idea left for 4e to contribute. ;)  

The Warlord, though, being the only 'new' class in the 4e PH1, though, was prettymuch the poster-boy.

 

 

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I think the only new classes in 4e were:

The Seeker - a primal warrior who infuses the power of nature spirits into his attacks.

The barbarian/warden - Brand new concept for an old class + new class with very similar flavor.

The swordmage - while not conceptually new, it was the first time a gish has truly blended arcane magic and martial prowess as one.
So picking on the Paladin and Avenger, what would make this class different from each other, not to mention, that the role of a Paladin is to avenge.

Example:

Paladin of Justice (may even follow said God of) comes across a village (with friends of course, this IS D&D), and finds it deserted.  Then comes across a pile of rotting heads and skulls, men, women, children, even babies, all cleanly cut and missing their right eye.  Everyone in the Party knows who did this:  Orcs.

So the Paladin says, "I must avenge this mass slaughter, who is with me?"

(Assumption players are hero types, they go along with it.)

So now the Paladin is an Avenger, for as long as necessary.

What would make an Avenger different enough?  (Hell, the Paladin needs that help too.)
So picking on the Paladin and Avenger, what would make this class different from each other, not to mention, that the role of a Paladin is to avenge.

Example:

Paladin of Justice (may even follow said God of) comes across a village (with friends of course, this IS D&D), and finds it deserted.  Then comes across a pile of rotting heads and skulls, men, women, children, even babies, all cleanly cut and missing their right eye.  Everyone in the Party knows who did this:  Orcs.

So the Paladin says, "I must avenge this mass slaughter, who is with me?"

(Assumption players are hero types, they go along with it.)

So now the Paladin is an Avenger, for as long as necessary.

What would make an Avenger different enough?  (Hell, the Paladin needs that help too.)



What their abilities are. What they do in action. An Avenger should be a holy slayer, not a knight in full plate armor.
So picking on the Paladin and Avenger, what would make this class different from each other, not to mention, that the role of a Paladin is to avenge.

Example:

Paladin of Justice (may even follow said God of) comes across a village (with friends of course, this IS D&D), and finds it deserted.  Then comes across a pile of rotting heads and skulls, men, women, children, even babies, all cleanly cut and missing their right eye.  Everyone in the Party knows who did this:  Orcs.

So the Paladin says, "I must avenge this mass slaughter, who is with me?"

(Assumption players are hero types, they go along with it.)

So now the Paladin is an Avenger, for as long as necessary.

What would make an Avenger different enough?  (Hell, the Paladin needs that help too.)



A Cleric is wise, he is the one chosen by his deity to lead the floock to offer them his wisdom, you search out a Cleric when you have a difficult decision and you need his wise counsel(or divine magic only he can do).


A Paladin is courageous, he is the one chosen by his deity to inspire his flock to great deads by shining example, you search out a Paladin when you and your villagers are rebelling against the evil necromancer and need his might(or his defensive abilities).

A Avenger is deadly, he is the one chosen by his deity to go out and kill his enemies when sending in a legion of paladins and clerics will not do (mostly because it needs to be done with stealth), you don't search out for a Avenger he searches for you and you know what you've done for his deity to be so pissed at you and you know you'll be dead either by this Avenger or the 12th they send after you.

The "avenger" is for the archtype of religious zealot, other name like inquisitor or witch hunter could be used. Its style is more offensive, more counter-spelling that healer. Sometime I have suggested the Latin word "secutor", what it can mean follower, pursuer, and it sounds close to "executioner". (The real world secutor was a type of gladiator). I don´t now advice the name "Avenger" becuase if it isn´t that movie about Thor, Hulk, Captain American and Iron Man, it is that where Sean Conery is a villain with a machine to change the weather.

About "runepriest", I suggest the name scribe, and I imagine the D&D magic runes like a mixture of Eberror artificier and dwarf runemaster from Warhammer Fantasy.

About the concept of fighter with totemic powers, I don´t want use the word "warden" but "nahual".

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius