Black/Green FFA deck feels creature/mana blocked

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I use this deck only for FFA with 3+ people, and it always feels like i'm getting Black mana blocked or creature blocked. Do you guys have any suggestions for this deck? I was thinking of adding in Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth instead of the Golgari Cluestone to help with the black mana.

Creatures:

4 Arbor Elf
4 Deadly Recluse
3 Elvish Visionary
2 Acidic Slime
1 Vraska the Unseen
4 Hydra Omnivore
2 Massacre Wurm
1 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
1 Craterhoof Behemoth

Enchantments:

2 Wild Growth
2 Rancor
4 Overgrowth

Sorceries/Artifact:

4 Exsanguinate
1 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Rise from the Grave
1 Golgari Cluestone

Land:

4 Golgari Rot Farm
9 Forest
9 Swamp
...or simply run dual lands?

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/12.jpg)

I keep meaning to run a deck with Arbor Elf and Overgrowth, but it always seems so clunky compared to fetching lands.  That said, a regular in my group does so successfully, but his deck is monogreen.  While Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth would help, you'd still need fetch to see it.

Heartbeat of Spring and Rites of Flourishing provide potentially dangerous options for mana production.  My primary metas love benefitting from cards like these, so they indirectly keep me alive long enough to set up for a win... Or a glorious defeat.

Card draw might help out.  Syphon Mind is a classic, but there are other options in both Black and Green.

Hydra Omnivore loves wearing Grafted Exoskeleton, although my opponents don't care for it.  Being in black, you can just hand out surprise poison with Tainted Strike.

Cheers! 
A shout out to Gaming Grounds in Kent, Ohio and Gamers N Geeks in Mobile, Alabama. www.zombiehunters.org for all your preparation needs. http://shtfschool.com/ - why prepping is useful, from one who has been there.
...or simply run dual lands?


i would but they're expensive...maybe i'll add in 4 Woodland Cemetery since they're only $7.50 each and save $10.
I keep meaning to run a deck with Arbor Elf and Overgrowth, but it always seems so clunky compared to fetching lands.  That said, a regular in my group does so successfully, but his deck is monogreen.  While Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth would help, you'd still need fetch to see it.

Heartbeat of Spring and Rites of Flourishing provide potentially dangerous options for mana production.  My primary metas love benefitting from cards like these, so they indirectly keep me alive long enough to set up for a win... Or a glorious defeat.

Card draw might help out.  Syphon Mind is a classic, but there are other options in both Black and Green.

Hydra Omnivore loves wearing Grafted Exoskeleton, although my opponents don't care for it.  Being in black, you can just hand out surprise poison with Tainted Strike.

Cheers! 


I have a Rites of Flourishing. That could actually help. Giving Hydra Omnivore infect is pretty great too.

I sorta feel like I should scrap this deck and just build it around Hydra Omnivore, Massacre Wurm and Exsanguinate. I would still need a lot of mana so the Overgrowths, Wild Growths and Arbor Elfs would have to stay too. they always really hurt everyone else, so building a deck around keeping them alive/buffing them would probably be best. I'll see about the Woodland Cemetery's though.

I've played with this deck a lot and have yet to use Craterhoof Behemoth, so he feels like a waste of space. Rise from the Grave has been pretty handy, same with Black Sun's Zenith. Vraska the Unseen also helps since her -3 is great (and i just like having her around) and Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger helps with screwing over everyone else while also helping Exsanguinate. Maybe I should keep the Golgari Cluestones...It's a cheaper duel land, and if they destroy it I can just sac it and draw a card.
Mana ramp and play a huge exsanguinate is pretty legit I feel for multiplayer. Just stack up on multiplayer effects.

grave pact+token generation+blood artist could get nasty

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/12.jpg)

Mana ramp and play a huge exsanguinate is pretty legit I feel for multiplayer. Just stack up on multiplayer effects. grave pact+token generation+blood artist could get nasty


yeah it could, but my store has no Blood Artists and only 2 Grave Pacts :\


Sylvan Primordial could help me out too. Destroy their lands while getting Black lands for myself. it also has reach which is helpful since I can't block flying (just realzed it says "forest". damn)
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth runs about $20 each.  IF you don't already have Urborgs lying around, dual lands will most likely cost the same and be more effective.

22 lands is not enough for this deck, even with Arbor Elf and a cluestone.  Besides that, Arbor Elf only untaps forests, which makes him not as useful as something like Llanowar Elves that just makes mana on its own.

I'd suggest either adding 2 more lands, or replacing Arbor Elf with Birds of Paradise, or both. 
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth runs about $20 each.  IF you don't already have Urborgs lying around, dual lands will most likely cost the same and be more effective.

22 lands is not enough for this deck, even with Arbor Elf and a cluestone.  Besides that, Arbor Elf only untaps forests, which makes him not as useful as something like Llanowar Elves that just makes mana on its own.

I'd suggest either adding 2 more lands, or replacing Arbor Elf with Birds of Paradise, or both. 


but untaping a forest with Overgrowth on it to get another 3 mana would be far better than just 1 from Llanowar Elves. and that helps boost Exsanguinate.

Birds of Paradise would help with Black though...I never bothered with them since I thought they were really expensive but they're only $3.00. could take out Craterhoof Behemoth and Golgari Cluestone for 2 of them.
you could run Utopia Sprawl over Overgrowth, or cut Overgrowth down to 2, to fix your black mana problem while still ramping with Arbor Elves
you could run Utopia Sprawl over Overgrowth, or cut Overgrowth down to 2, to fix your black mana problem while still ramping with Arbor Elves



ooooooooo Utopia Sprawl is perfect, but i'd probably remove the Wild Growth instead since Utopia Sprawl is better...but now i just realized that maybe you said Overgrowth since it costs 3 instead of 1 which would help me get mana out a few turns earlier.

here's a revised version:

Creatures:

4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Deadly Recluse
3 Elvish Visionary
2 Acidic Slime
1 Vraska the Unseen
4 Hydra Omnivore
2 Massacre Wurm
1 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger

Enchantments:

2 Wild Growth
2 Rancor
2 Overgrowth
2 Utopia Sprawl

Sorceries/Artifact:

4 Exsanguinate
1 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Rise from the Grave

Land:

4 Golgari Rot Farm
9 Forest
9 Swamp

I could also use Golgari Guildgate. my friends use them too, so i wouldn't really be at a disadvantage.
Sylvan Primordial will fetch and Arbor Elf will untap Overgrown Tomb, should you ever acquire any... And you really should, as BG is a potent color combination in FFA games.  Perhaps when it leaves standard, it will drop a bit in price.

Giant Exsanguinates win, but I recommend some method to take advantage of the life you gain, be it Yawgmoth's Bargain, Phyrexian Arena, or the venerable Hurricane.

Silklash Spider is a great creature, with or without deathtouch, something that Typhoid Rats starts with; Gaze of Granite can be a house, but could backfire with your strategy involving small cmc things.

Cheers! 
A shout out to Gaming Grounds in Kent, Ohio and Gamers N Geeks in Mobile, Alabama. www.zombiehunters.org for all your preparation needs. http://shtfschool.com/ - why prepping is useful, from one who has been there.
As for your Lands, I would take out two forest and two swamp for 4 Golgari Guildgate. Just my opinion. 

Since you use this deck for big multiplayer, you could always use some Suffer the Past, It gets you health and prevents that one guy from returning his graveyard.

 Since you have quite a few small creatures I would recomend Overwhelming Stampede, and since your handy creatures are high in land cost, you could do Damnation to help keep the field cleared. Also it helps wipe everyone right before you drop your bigger creatures

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you guys have great card ideas...but I honestly have no idea what to take out for them. I could take out the 2 Wild Growths and Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger but that would make Exsanguinate less powerful.

Cry

I would love to use Damnation...if it wasn't $30
If you have the money, though for rare and mythic rare they are not that expensive really, you could go

  Gyre SagePrimordial HydraBioshift
 
  Diabolic TutorExsanguinate or whatever component you are missing for the combo

And dump Omnivore and use the tutor to make sure you get all the pieces to get an Exsanguinate for the multi player kill,  I would add in some protection like

   Swiftfoot Boots, Whispersilk Cloak or Alpha Authority

to keep your sages on the field with the counters they have, the cloak would be a problem for bioshift though.


Also maybe

   Autumn's Veil 
   Vexing Shusher
   

Since Exsanguinate is your main win con.
the suggestion of Vexing Shusher reminds me, you could use Rosheen Meanderer for lulz
Boseiju, Who Shelters All to ensure your Exsanguinates get through?

A friend does defenders, using Axebane Guardians to power out huge X-spells of all colors. 

Cheers! 
A shout out to Gaming Grounds in Kent, Ohio and Gamers N Geeks in Mobile, Alabama. www.zombiehunters.org for all your preparation needs. http://shtfschool.com/ - why prepping is useful, from one who has been there.
...or simply run dual lands?


i would but they're expensive...maybe i'll add in 4 Woodland Cemetery since they're only $7.50 each and save $10.


That's why I love lands like llanowar wastes as budget duals.  Only $2.  Run 3 so you don't hurt yourself too much.  Mostly they help early on then later you burn it for colorless and stop hurting yourself.  I usually take 0-2 damage, so they're almost as good as much pricier duals that make you pay 2 life, and sometimes better.  Likewise I wouldn't run more than 3 golgari rot farm, because you don't want to be stuck with a come in tapped land on a turn when you need 1 more mana.

A superb land for most any FFA deck is Forbidden Orchard.  You get any color you want, and you get a diplomatic advantage as you give a token to someone who isn't winning.  So it goes from good and bad in 1v1 to awesome on top of awesome in FFA.  Get 4 if you can, they're $5.50 each.  On the plus side if you ever rework or scrap your deck, you can keep using the orchards in any FFA deck, so you'll get more mileage out of your money.

Another card that should be in almost every green or red deck is manamorphose.  Purely for the free deck thinning.  Fixing your color screw is a bonus.  It's $4 tho, so I dunno if it's worth it for you.  With 22 lands, and probably 1-2 less after your deck is thinned, I'd run 3.  You do have to get 2 lands down before you can begin deck thinning, after all.
ok i'm going to forget my deck and just pick cards I want:

Creatures:

4 Hydra Omnivore
4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Massacre Wurm (maybe 4?)
1 Vraska the Unseen

Spells:

4 Exsanguinate
1 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Rise from the Grave
2 Swiftfoot Boots
2 Whispersilk Cloak
1 Rites of Flourishing
1 Grave Pact (?)
2 Utopia Sprawl


Land:

4 Forbidden Orchard
3 Llanowar Wastes
8 Swamp
9 Forest


so thats 52 cards...maybe add the 4 Deadly Recluse  and then add some doubles for the other 4 that i need? what do you guys think?

so thats 52 cards...maybe add the 4 Deadly Recluse  and then add some doubles for the other 4 that i need? what do you guys think?

I'd add a playset of both Naturalize and Beast Within - you lack removal (especially in a multiplayer environment).


While I feel that Massacre Wurm and Black Sun's Zenith go a way to negating the drawback of Forbidden Orchard - I still don't think it's worth including without more support. I would consider running something like Cower In Fear to deal with the Tokens, alternatively, you could just run a handful of fatties (and non-Creature ramp) and Oath Of Druids.

I'm not particularly sold on Rise From The Grave here either. 

I second the suggestion for  Boseiju, Who Shelters All.

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so thats 52 cards...maybe add the 4 Deadly Recluse  and then add some doubles for the other 4 that i need? what do you guys think?

I'd add a playset of both Naturalize and Beast Within - you lack removal (especially in a multiplayer environment).


While I feel that Massacre Wurm and Black Sun's Zenith go a way to negating the drawback of Forbidden Orchard - I still don't think it's worth including without more support. I would consider running something like Cower In Fear to deal with the Tokens, alternatively, you could just run a handful of fatties (and non-Creature ramp) and Oath Of Druids.

I'm not particularly sold on Rise From The Grave here either. 

I second the suggestion for  Boseiju, Who Shelters All.


yes i do like Naturalize...i'll put those in. i can take away the Rise from the Grave and add 2 of them. my friends don't have THAT many artifacts and enchantments.

my spells have rarely been countered with this deck. Exsanguinate  hasn't even been countered once. i can add 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All and replace the forest...or take out 1 Llanowar Wastes instead

thats 53 (57 if i add the spiders). i think i should add the 4 Deadly Recluse and the 3 Overgrowths
yes i do like Naturalize...i'll put those in. i can take away the Rise from the Grave and add 2 of them. my friends don't have THAT many artifacts and enchantments

If you are only going to add a limited number it should be 2 Beast Within - while slightly more expensive, it deals with much much more.

i can add 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All and replace the forest...or take out 1 Llanowar Wastes instead

Replace the Forest.
You could also consider 1 or 2 Rogue's Passage - they would enable your larger creatures to reliably connect, and the Assassin tokens from Vraska The Unseen.

thats 53 (57 if i add the spiders). i think i should add the 4 Deadly Recluse and the 3 Overgrowths

I don't much like both Utopia Sprawl and Overgrowth in the same deck - LD will have a field day.

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Well if his group even runs LD.  It's hard to pull off well.

I'd take out rites of flourishing unless you can make the benefit more one sided. Like if you had an unusually large number of lands. Otherwise you're basically paying 3 mana to break even vs. your enemies.

2-3 lands that come in tapped are perfectly acceptable because you can usually sneak in so few on a turn when you have an extra mana. Unless you get something better you could always put back a golgari rot farm or two for more dual color mana.

Overall there are a lot of very good FFA cards in that deck, though otherwise no clear direction AFAIK.  A theme isn't essential, but you might find one that synergizes with your existing cards.

It's not bad but naturalize bores me.  There are many alternatives .  Seal of Primordium looks pretty neat in FFA, often merely as a ready to go threat that doesn't get used.  There are of course advantages and disadvantages to each option.
Well if his group even runs LD.  It's hard to pull off well.

It's not even LD necessarily nowadays - a whole host of "destroy target (sometimes noncreature) permanent" effects exist (like Beast Within, BrambleCrush and Sylvan Primordial). Plus, a Forest with a Utopia Sprawl and a OverGrowth is going to be a huge target. 
To my mind, the sheer number of nasty Lands which are viable in multiplayer almost necessitate LD, or, at least, effects capable of destroying Lands.

Overall there are a lot of very good FFA cards in that deck, though otherwise no clear direction

I agree.

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Well if his group even runs LD.  It's hard to pull off well.

I'd take out rites of flourishing unless you can make the benefit more one sided. Like if you had an unusually large number of lands. Otherwise you're basically paying 3 mana to break even vs. your enemies.

2-3 lands that come in tapped are perfectly acceptable because you can usually sneak in so few on a turn when you have an extra mana. Unless you get something better you could always put back a golgari rot farm or two for more dual color mana.

Overall there are a lot of very good FFA cards in that deck, though otherwise no clear direction AFAIK.  A theme isn't essential, but you might find one that synergizes with your existing cards. 


i don't know what AFAIK is...but is LD Land Destruction? if so, no one really kills lands in our group. if they don't kill my Gaea's Cradle in my other deck, they won't kill these.

there was never a theme. this deck was originally a 2013 Intro Deck, but i changed it over time. I just wanted Black and Green cards, and when I found Hydra Omnivore I decided to make it a FFA deck.

won't adding more colorless mana screw me over? i'm already down to 8 and 8...if I wanted to add 2 Rogue's Passage i guess i wouldn't take out anymore basic land. Rites can go, but i don't know what else. i think i might have to take out another basic land...or Black Sun's Zenith. i also removed the 2 Swiftfoot Boots for 2 more Whispersilk Cloak so maybe Rogue's Passage isn't needed now?
i don't know what LD is...or AFAIK :\

LD = Land Destruction (like Ghost Quarter) and AFAIK = As Far As I Know.

won't adding more colorless mana screw me over?

The easiest solution to this problem is to do some testing - test with and without the Basic Lands being removed and see if it impacts performance.

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i don't know what LD is...or AFAIK :\

LD = Land Destruction (like Ghost Quarter) and AFAIK = As Far As I Know.

won't adding more colorless mana screw me over?

The easiest solution to this problem is to do some testing - test with and without the Basic Lands being removed and see if it impacts performance.



well i'm going to be getting the cards tomorrow, and then we're all going to play. guess i'll have time to test
ok so this is what it looks like so far:

Creatures:

4 Hydra Omnivore
4 Deadly Recluse
4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Massacre Wurm
1 Vraska the Unseen

Spells:

4 Exsanguinate
4 Whispersilk Cloak
1 Grave Pact
2 Utopia Sprawl
2 Beast Within
3 Overgrowth

Land:

4 Forbidden Orchard
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
8 Swamp
8 Forest

57 cards

i wanna add 2 more Massacre Wurm and another Vraska or an extra Birds...but i could also add 2 Vines of Vastwood and one more Grave Pact or something completely different
I added 2 more Massacre Wurms and another Grave Pact. The deck worked well, better than before and my friends liked the 1/1 tokens that Forbidden Orchard makes.
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