Making a comback after a few years, 4th or 3.5?

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Hello,

After a few years of only playing RPG games on consoles and PC i decided to come back to the D&D with my old friends, i have read some of the stuff on the 4th Editiion i really liked the balance it brings to play, the current characters are still with the 3.5 rules, any suggestion on what system to play?

I see that the DDI is a very essential tool in the 4th edition for the DM mostly, any good apps out there for the Android moblie that is similar to the DDI?

Thanks
A couple of things to consider:

1) Porting characters from 3.5 to 4e is impossible as the rules are totally different.
2) 4e is soon to be as dead as 3.5.  5e is the next big thing.  There's an open playtest happening right now that you can check out if you want.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

Just go with 3.5. 4e is enjoyable for one play, but after that the entire thing is just "BTDT."
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth


After a few years of only playing RPG games on consoles and PC i decided to come back to the D&D with my old friends, i have read some of the stuff on the 4th Editiion i really liked the balance it brings to play, the current characters are still with the 3.5 rules, any suggestion on what system to play?

Thanks



You can check out 4e for free if you are curious about it. At the bottom of this page are quick start rules, free adventures, etc

www.wizards.com/dnd/Feature.aspx?x=new/l...

You could also check out "retroclones" of the classic editions for free. I like Labyrinth Lord a lot.

White Box OD&D
www.swordsandwizardry.com/whitebox.htm

Basic/Expert D&D
goblinoidgames.com/labyrinthlord.html

1e AD&D
www.knights-n-knaves.com/osric/

2e AD&D
www.4shared.com/folder/Ru5jYvpB/For_Gold...


Hello,

After a few years of only playing RPG games on consoles and PC i decided to come back to the D&D with my old friends, i have read some of the stuff on the 4th Editiion i really liked the balance it brings to play, the current characters are still with the 3.5 rules, any suggestion on what system to play?

I see that the DDI is a very essential tool in the 4th edition for the DM mostly, any good apps out there for the Android moblie that is similar to the DDI?

Thanks


Welcome back to the hobby.  I hope you enjoy yourself with whatever you decide to do.

1) Don't worry about character conversion.  Unless you got really crazy with the multiclassing or the "Use anything in the MM as a PC" mentality of 3e pretty much anything from third can be aproximated in 4th. (If you're willing to buy or pirate enough books of course, no edition of D&D has all the options in the basic products)

2) DDI isn't really essential to the 4e experience.  Most people who say that are just whiners.  That being said you can find old versions of the ofline character builder scattered around the net and those can be very usefull.

3) The haters seem to be around today so I'm just going to say that they are all full of it.  4e is IMO the best version of the game to date including what we have seen of D&D Next so far.  4e is balanced well and buckets of fun for it. 4e is also far far more robust, engaging and involving when it comes to combat.  Sadly similar advancements were not made to 4e when it comes to non-combat so expect non-combat to run just like it did in previous editions.

4)  As Frosthof has already pointed out you can get a taste of 4e for free.  However the free adventure, Keep on the Shadowfell, isn't a great piece of adventure writing and fails to showcase the strengths of 4e.  Sadly the rest of the published adventures for 4e are similarly weak, with a lack of good 3rd party support and a weak 1st party writting team (once again, damn you Mearls).  All this being said Keep on the Shadowfell is still a decent primer for gettting into the game and seeing how you like the basic mechanics.

5) There are two distinct entry points for 4e.  There are the original 3 books the PHB, MM and DMG and the Essentials line.  Each has their own advantages and disadvantages.


  • The original Core books have better versions of the classes IMO.  They also have the Warlord, which is my favorite class. The Core versions of the classes are also the ones used in the Keep on the Shadowfell if you do decide to run it.  The problem with the Core books is that if you keep buying books things quickly get a bit weird, power creep and edition growing pains make the errata neccesary.  All the Errata can be found online for free.

  • The Essentials line is also fairly good.  It consists of the Monster Vault, Dungeon Masters Kit and either the Heroes of the Fallen Lands or Heroes or the Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms (Players options books with different classes and races in them). The Classes are by and large simpler to create and play, they are also more balanced and there is practically no errata for them.  The MV and DMK also come with a whole ton of awesome extras to help get you started (Tokens, maps, adventures, etc.).  The big downside to essentials is that it does cost a bit more and you are going to have to buy a seperate 1st level adventure if you don't want to write one.  I would suggest the Slaying Stone.


Essentials and the Original 4e can be mixed and matched freely of course, it all works together quite well in reality.  But I wouldn't suggest getting both unless you are super rich or get an itch to try something new.

6) Good luck; Have Fun.
Another point for Essentials is that they include all the errata so you won't have to print scads of errata sheets like you do for the original line & they are much clearer. You can run a classic style game with the vault, rules compendium & heroes of v the fallen lands then expand to include fallen kingdoms. The DM kit is nice but not 100% essential. The drawback of Essentials is magic items are very few in the book & it can get quite confusing in terms of what you need but the three I mentioned are the bare minimum. Another drawback is repeated content in the books, copy & pressure type duff but I understand why they did that.

3.5 is nice, runs well but prep time is a pain because it is so involved. Check out PATHFINDER for a much easier to run update. 3.5 itself can be quite daunting because of all the options but PATHFINDER has a lot less optional material as it is a product refresh & Paizo has handled it quite well. Another drawback is spellcasters will outpace your warrior characters after level 10 and the system rewards system mastery. This is true of both 3e and Pathfinder.

Now the drawback of both systems I'd they rely on minis or critters for combat. It is inextricably tied to the combat system. This is a benefit & a drawback though. It can lead to some awesome battles but minis are pricey. The vault includes tokens, a lot of them do minis aren't a necessary purchase with essentials. Pathfinder requires either buying a crap to of minis or the counter boxes for about 40 bucks for each bestiary you own.

Both lines have entry level products, the red box for 4e/Essentials and the beginner box for Pathfinder. The beginner box is a more complete game, a simplification of the the core rules for Pathfinder covering levels 1-5 with a reusable battlemat and counters. D&d red box is also nice but character creation is done through choices in a solo play adventure & then you run for the characters created a group adventure. It covers 1-3 level and uses the classes from fallen lands as the character created through the solo adventure, fighter, rogue, cleric & wizard. Also has tokens and a nice map that is two sides but keyed to the adventure from the set. The power cards in it are nice and the character sheet is much nicer than the original sheet for 4e. You are encouraged to pick up the essentials line after playing the adventure included and the kit & vault have some great adventures in them! Probably some of the best in 4e.

4e adventures aren't so bad, they get flack but in my estimation are a lot better than a good chunk of 2e & 3e adventures. Especially the 32 page ones. Also, definitely ignore cries of you need DID. No, you don't.
Another point for Essentials is that they include all the errata so you won't have to print scads of errata sheets like you do for the original line & they are much clearer. You can run a classic style game with the vault, rules compendium & heroes of v the fallen lands then expand to include fallen kingdoms. The DM kit is nice but not 100% essential. The drawback of Essentials is magic items are very few in the book & it can get quite confusing in terms of what you need but the three I mentioned are the bare minimum. Another drawback is repeated content in the books, copy & pressure type duff but I understand why they did that.

3.5 is nice, runs well but prep time is a pain because it is so involved. Check out PATHFINDER for a much easier to run update. 3.5 itself can be quite daunting because of all the options but PATHFINDER has a lot less optional material as it is a product refresh & Paizo has handled it quite well. Another drawback is spellcasters will outpace your warrior characters after level 10 and the system rewards system mastery. This is true of both 3e and Pathfinder.

Now the drawback of both systems I'd they rely on minis or critters for combat. It is inextricably tied to the combat system. This is a benefit & a drawback though. It can lead to some awesome battles but minis are pricey. The vault includes tokens, a lot of them do minis aren't a necessary purchase with essentials. Pathfinder requires either buying a crap to of minis or the counter boxes for about 40 bucks for each bestiary you own.

Both lines have entry level products, the red box for 4e/Essentials and the beginner box for Pathfinder. The beginner box is a more complete game, a simplification of the the core rules for Pathfinder covering levels 1-5 with a reusable battlemat and counters. D&d red box is also nice but character creation is done through choices in a solo play adventure & then you run for the characters created a group adventure. It covers 1-3 level and uses the classes from fallen lands as the character created through the solo adventure, fighter, rogue, cleric & wizard. Also has tokens and a nice map that is two sides but keyed to the adventure from the set. The power cards in it are nice and the character sheet is much nicer than the original sheet for 4e. You are encouraged to pick up the essentials line after playing the adventure included and the kit & vault have some great adventures in them! Probably some of the best in 4e.

4e adventures aren't so bad, they get flack but in my estimation are a lot better than a good chunk of 2e & 3e adventures. Especially the 32 page ones. Also, definitely ignore cries of you need DID. No, you don't.


To be honest Pathfinder is just as hard to run as a DM. Sure they cleared yup things like grapple and a few other pieces but otherwise NPCs and Monster building just plain suck. Not to mention they never fixed CR.

Come to 4ENCLAVE for a fan based 4th Edition Community.

 

A couple of things to consider:

1) Porting characters from 3.5 to 4e is impossible as the rules are totally different.
2) 4e is soon to be as dead as 3.5.  5e is the next big thing.  There's an open playtest happening right now that you can check out if you want.



1) Its not impossible, I do it all the time.

2) Is a pretty good idea actually, and its totally free, which is a plus.  
I survived Section 4 and all I got was this lousy sig Off-topic and going downhill from there
4e is enjoyable.



yupyup.
I survived Section 4 and all I got was this lousy sig Off-topic and going downhill from there
Thank you alll for advices.
Is there a big diffreance with 4th to the Next edition?
or is a jump like 3rd to 3.5?

Does the free CB is updated?
Yeah its a pretty big difference between 4th and next, Next is a step backwards in many ways, theyre trying to get back to their roots or whatever. Theres still some 4e elements in there though, they basically took elements from all the editions and sorta smushed them together, thats my take on it anyway. Its alright, and my group has had fun with it, but it doesnt really bring anything new to the table.
I survived Section 4 and all I got was this lousy sig Off-topic and going downhill from there
If you like the look of 4e, give it a shot.  Even without DDI, DMing it is easy(particularly compared to 3.5).  
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
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Next might not be the best place to jump into the Hobby right now.  It is in playtest currently and is therefore very unfinished and unpolished.
Just read some about the next edition, they really went back to their roots, sigh the wizard have lesser spells to cast when he had in the 3rd edition.
Just read some about the next edition, they really went back to their roots, sigh the wizard have lesser spells to cast when he had in the 3rd edition.

Problem with 3e casters is they were too good... I'm all for having more spells to prep (Which is why I love the Arcanist and Mage from 4e) and being a more utilitarian class... But 3e wizards can be grossly overpowered (which is bad). 3e and 3.5 experienced very, very bad system bloat, the game got filled with many unnecessary books with overpowered options and oddball rules. Though there were a few treasures in the bloat.

Come to 4ENCLAVE for a fan based 4th Edition Community.

 

One of the things I liked best in 2E was the staggered XP system. I realize that doing away with that in 3.X streamlined the game & made multi-classing easier... But it's also what led to casters being gamebreakers.
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
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When she meets CJ's mom?
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4e is enjoyable.



yupyup.

So I take it you're the type of person who immediately rewatches movies a several times after you finish it, and keep watching the same movie every saturday? Or the guy who rereads the same book nonstop?
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth

To be honest Pathfinder is just as hard to run as a DM. Sure they cleared yup things like grapple and a few other pieces but otherwise NPCs and Monster building just plain suck. Not to mention they never fixed CR.



The game uses an xp budget system for encounter building like 4e so I am unsure what you are talking about. Considering cr was a God send when 3e came out and the op is used to older editions I am certain he will be able to eye ball his encounters after a few sessions even if they used cr. Why back in my day we had no challenge ratings. Kids these days

While it is true, building monsters and npcs is much harder in 3.5/Pathfinder, they did greatly simplify monsters in Pathfinder,  as in building them, it is nowhere near as simple as 4e where important npcs are built on the same rules as monsters and incredibly easy to do.  
Why does an Ogre have only 1hp in the 4th MM??
A punch can kill it?
Just read some about the next edition, they really went back to their roots, sigh the wizard have lesser spells to cast when he had in the 3rd edition.

Problem with 3e casters is they were too good... I'm all for having more spells to prep (Which is why I love the Arcanist and Mage from 4e) and being a more utilitarian class... But 3e wizards can be grossly overpowered (which is bad). 3e and 3.5 experienced very, very bad system bloat, the game got filled with many unnecessary books with overpowered options and oddball rules. Though there were a few treasures in the bloat.



This is why I suggest Pathfinder, four years in and it has a lot less system bloat than 3.5.

As to the lack of options in Next, keep in mind that it is just a playtest. They are looking for certain things in each packet and the feedback surveys. There is also missing and broken stuff in the playtest and they are aware of that as well. The system has a lot of holes in it right now that will be slowly fixed over time. Right now the very core is finished to my understanding for a very basic game, they are working on standard, the second tier of how they want to do the game, basic-standard-advanced. I get the impression basic and standard will be like older editions. Basic more like old school, standard like 3e era and advanced will be the tactical game akin to 3.5 and 4e.  
4e is enjoyable.



yupyup.

So I take it you're the type of person who immediately rewatches movies a several times after you finish it, and keep watching the same movie every saturday? Or the guy who rereads the same book nonstop?



Was this necessary?
Why does an Ogre have only 1hp in the 4th MM??
A punch can kill it?



Umm that's a minion version of an ogre. 4e has some rules for minions that are meant to only be annoyances as opposed to threats and help make large set piece battles interesting. Ogres have a lot of hit points. Also... the math in the MM is bad. Get the monster vault.
Anyone can point me where are the rules to manage a battle against a group encounter and not only one?
Anyone can point me where are the rules to manage a battle against a group encounter and not only one?



DMG in the encounter building section. 
4e is enjoyable.



yupyup.

So I take it you're the type of person who immediately rewatches movies a several times after you finish it, and keep watching the same movie every saturday? Or the guy who rereads the same book nonstop?



Was this necessary?



Just having a little fun.
I survived Section 4 and all I got was this lousy sig Off-topic and going downhill from there
Why does an Ogre have only 1hp in the 4th MM??
A punch can kill it?



Its a minion type ogre, for when you want to swarm your players with enemies without making them annoying to track.
Anyone can point me where are the rules to manage a battle against a group encounter and not only one?



DMG in the encounter building section. 



Thanks, is there an app or program that i can create my own encounter?
Does the encounter combat is against each monster in the encounter group or i can attack with them as one unit?
Why does an Ogre have only 1hp in the 4th MM??
A punch can kill it?


No a regular punch couldn't kill and Ogre, but an on level PC could kill an ogre minion with a punch

This can be sort of a hard thing to wrap your head around when you are an older player switching over to 4e.  Basically in older editions the numbers acted like the physical laws of the D&D universe.  Everything had to fit to the numbers and the rules were applied equally across the board.  The basic assumption in 4e is very different, in 4e the game world exists from the perspective of the PC.  All the numbers and math represents how the PC's view the world.  So that Ogre minion can be taken down in one hit by a PC, because PC's are badass and that Ogre is a wimp.

An example from one of my own campaigns were the Knights of the Creeping Rot.  At level 2 the Party fought one of these knights, at the time he was a solo creature that gave them a lot of trouble.  At level 8 that same Knight came back with a group of undead minions and was an elite oponent.  By 16th level the party was fighting Knights of the Creeping Rot as minions.

community.wizards.com/wrecan/blog/2010/0...

The brilliant and amazing Wrecan (RIP) puts it better than anybody else. 
Much as I like 4e, the subjective approach to numbers is often confusing and leads to many inconsistencies. These bother some players more than others.
Anyone can point me where are the rules to manage a battle against a group encounter and not only one?



DMG in the encounter building section. 



Thanks, is there an app or program that i can create my own encounter?
Does the encounter combat is against each monster in the encounter group or i can attack with them as one unit?



You don't need an app for that, it is pretty basic math. You have an xp budget and you add the xp values of the monsters you want to use until they match the xp value of that level of encounter. As far as the second part of your question, I don't get what you are asking. Pathfinder is similar.
Anyone can point me where are the rules to manage a battle against a group encounter and not only one?



DMG in the encounter building section. 



Thanks, is there an app or program that i can create my own encounter?
Does the encounter combat is against each monster in the encounter group or i can attack with them as one unit?

Honestly 4e encounter building is so simple in terms of how the rules work that there's no real need for an app. For each level of party there is an encounter level, so there are 30 PC levels and 30 monster levels (actually a few monsters go above 30 to give 30th level PCs a real challenge). Anyway, for each encounter level there's an XP value on a chart that says what the budget is for that level of encounter. So for a level 1 Encounter its 100 XP per character, so 500 XP for a party of 5 level 1 PCs. Each monster has an XP value, you just buy 500 XP worth of monsters and you have a level 1 encounter. That encounter should be a modest to trivial challenge depending on the player's tactical skill and how optimized they make their characters. A level+5 encounter (250 XP/PC for level 1 PCs) would normally be considered VERY difficult, bordering on impossible, though again really skilled players that min/max may find things somewhat easier.

A level 1 standard monster is worth 100 XP, so in practice you can just drop 1 level 1 monster down per PC and have a workable fight. The same holds true as you level, so 5 level 6 monsters would make a level 6 encounter, almost impossible for a level 1 party.

There are also Solo monsters, which are worth 4 standard monsters (some early ones are worth 5x, but they don't tend to work really well, go with Monster Vault, not MM1. MM3 is also pretty sweet, MM2 is so-so). Dragons and such tend to be solos. Elite monsters, worth 2 standard monsters serve as 'mini-bosses' and such, extra tough, but designed to have other monsters backing them up. Finally there are the 1 hit point minions, which are rated at 25% of the value of a standard monster.

Finally all monsters are given a role, Artillery, Controller, Skirmisher, Lurker, Brute, or Soldier. The roles give you a good idea of what the monster is designed to do so you can create useful mixes of monsters easily without needing to reread all their stat blocks every time. 2 Soldiers, a Controller, and 2 Artillery for instance will clearly make a nice front line, a guy to slow down/counter any flanking etc, and a couple ranged attackers to pound on the party. Some monsters also have a Leader sub-role which indicates they have some sort of buffing power or something that can enhance their companions abilities in combat.

Traps are also rated in levels just like monsters, you can add them to encounters in place of monsters as desired. Other elements, terrain, etc don't have XP values, you just set up what you think will be fun challenging.

There are other tools provided for encounter building. DMG outlines a series of encounter templates, basic designs that can be filled in, so for instance a 'wolfpack' is 5 identical skirmishers, a high mobility attack group that will presumably use hit and run tactics, etc. Terrain powers are powers (all spell and other fantastical/unusual type abilities in 4e are 'powers') that are attached to terrain, so for instance a chandelier might have an Encounter use attack power that is activated by a character cutting the rope holding it up and it attacks everyone under it, smash! You can use a general damage table to do the same thing on the fly, but its nice to prep terrain powers ahead of time for quick use. There is also a lot of types of fantastical terrain that has various effects from damaging anyone in it to giving you extra healing, etc.

Its a good system, but there's just not enough math and tracking to really be worth having an app for it. I think there actually IS a very simple webapp on DDI, but its barely worth bothering with. In any case once you've run a few encounters you'll probably just design them by eye and then add up XP as a final check.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
As for the question about 'one unit', I think you're talking about some sort of mass combat system where you can have 100 orcs be one unit with one set of stats, etc. There isn't currently a 4e mass combat system like that. HOWEVER, 4e does have ways to deal with this sort of thing by abstraction. For a small number of monsters you could use a Swarm, which is a special type of monster which is many individuals. The rules for these are pretty simple, but they probably aren't that useful for LARGE numbers, etc. Its not a way to do Battlesystem-like battles. You could also use terrain or just a special rule (IE the zombie swarm is that whole side of the board, it moves 3 squares a turn, if you are inside it you take X damage and you're slowed).

You can also use minions. It is perfectly feasible to have 20 minions in a 4e fight. You don't have to track their HP and they pretty much die if anything much happens to them, so just toss them out there like candy as you like pretty much. Its pretty common to see encounters with things like endless minion generators for instance.

Beyond that, the Skill Challenge rules are designed to let PCs do things that are 'encounters' (IE situations with success and failure, and possibly immediate danger) but aren't covered by the combat rules. You could thus make a battle that was an SC where the various PCs can try to do various things to make success happen. One character could scout out the enemy army, allowing the good guys to deploy in an ideal location or decimate the enemy with an ambush. The warlord might stand on the front lines at the center of the battle so the front line holds against the enemy charge. The wizard might cast some sort of ritual that gives the troops some resistance to the poison of the bad guys spider troops, etc. If you get enough successes on the checks for these things then the battle is won, otherwise its lost and you can go on to other stuff. Combat encounters can be interspersed as well, maybe the party comes together to fight the big bad guy at the climax of the battle. Some minions can be running around, and the enemy lines are off the map to one side, etc. If the battle is lost, then there can be some encounters as the PCs escape.

Honestly, if you want to run really intricate large battles I'd use S&S, Chainmail, or Battlesystem, its not like monsters are radically different in 4e than in previous editions. You can always tweak a few things to match more closely with specific powers etc if you need to.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
As for the question about 'one unit', I think you're talking about some sort of mass combat system where you can have 100 orcs be one unit with one set of stats, etc. There isn't currently a 4e mass combat system like that. HOWEVER, 4e does have ways to deal with this sort of thing by abstraction. For a small number of monsters you could use a Swarm, which is a special type of monster which is many individuals. The rules for these are pretty simple, but they probably aren't that useful for LARGE numbers, etc. Its not a way to do Battlesystem-like battles. You could also use terrain or just a special rule (IE the zombie swarm is that whole side of the board, it moves 3 squares a turn, if you are inside it you take X damage and you're slowed).

You can also use minions. It is perfectly feasible to have 20 minions in a 4e fight. You don't have to track their HP and they pretty much die if anything much happens to them, so just toss them out there like candy as you like pretty much. Its pretty common to see encounters with things like endless minion generators for instance.

Beyond that, the Skill Challenge rules are designed to let PCs do things that are 'encounters' (IE situations with success and failure, and possibly immediate danger) but aren't covered by the combat rules. You could thus make a battle that was an SC where the various PCs can try to do various things to make success happen. One character could scout out the enemy army, allowing the good guys to deploy in an ideal location or decimate the enemy with an ambush. The warlord might stand on the front lines at the center of the battle so the front line holds against the enemy charge. The wizard might cast some sort of ritual that gives the troops some resistance to the poison of the bad guys spider troops, etc. If you get enough successes on the checks for these things then the battle is won, otherwise its lost and you can go on to other stuff. Combat encounters can be interspersed as well, maybe the party comes together to fight the big bad guy at the climax of the battle. Some minions can be running around, and the enemy lines are off the map to one side, etc. If the battle is lost, then there can be some encounters as the PCs escape.

Honestly, if you want to run really intricate large battles I'd use S&S, Chainmail, or Battlesystem, its not like monsters are radically different in 4e than in previous editions. You can always tweak a few things to match more closely with specific powers etc if you need to.

The DMG 2 has rules for Mass Combat.

Come to 4ENCLAVE for a fan based 4th Edition Community.

 

The 4e DMG2? I sure haven't seen them. DMG2 does have a wide variety of suggestions for ways to set up adventures of different kinds, but AFAIK it doesn't have anything that I would call a mass combat system.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
If I remember it is mostly skill challenge suggestions that closely match your own AbdlAlhazred.
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I suggest using the Pathfinder system. It's essential D&D 3.75. You can even get a large amount of their rules for free here.

paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/
I suggest using the Pathfinder system. It's essentially a D&D knockoff by a 3rd party company. You can even get a large amount of their rules for free here.

paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/


Correction

Come to 4ENCLAVE for a fan based 4th Edition Community.

 

Cool! Does that mean we can call 4e "Tabletop WoW" with no one getting butthurt?

Even people who play 3.5 acknowledge that Pathfinder is more of an "update" than a "totally new game"... Y'know, like 4e is.
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Yeah, something tells me you don't seem to know the definition of the word "knockoff." It's exactly what I said it was, an evolution of the 3.5 rules system. As for being produced by a 3rd party company, who cares? I don't remember swearing a blood oath to WotC that I would never buy a product from another RPG company, and I'm pretty sure the original poster never swore undying loyalty to WotC, either. If the game and the system are good, then who cares what the brand name on the spine of the book is?
Basically ignore what everyone here says. Try 4th ed for free and make up your own mind before dropping $$$ any any system. Frosof at post 4 had good links to free stuff.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Basically ignore what everyone here says. Try 4th ed for free and make up your own mind before dropping $$$ any any system. 



Yeah but you just said something, so that means you should be ignored, haha, and any way Im pretty sure that was already suggested.
I survived Section 4 and all I got was this lousy sig Off-topic and going downhill from there
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