Working on Making a Defender

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I have been tossing around a few ideas. So far, here is what I have come up with.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Bulwark, level 15
Warforged, Warlock/Fighter, Avernian Knight
Hybrid Talent Option: Fighter Armor Proficiency
Eldritch Pact (Hybrid) Option: Infernal Pact (Hybrid)
Hybrid Warlock Option: Hybrid Warlock Will
Eldritch Strike Option: Eldritch Strike Constitution
Inherent Bonuses
Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)
Theme: Infernal Prince
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 21, CON 21, DEX 16, INT 9, WIS 11, CHA 12
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 16, DEX 13, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 11
 
 
AC: 27 Fort: 28 Ref: 25 Will: 25
HP: 104 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 26
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +17, Endurance +19, Intimidate +15
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +10, Arcana +6, Bluff +10, Diplomacy +10, Dungeoneering +7, Heal +7, History +6, Insight +7, Nature +7, Perception +7, Religion +6, Stealth +10, Streetwise +8, Thievery +10
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Infernal Prince Attack: Hellfire Heart
Warforged Racial Power: Warforged Resolve
Warlock's Curse  Power: Warlock's Curse
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Multiple Class Attack: Power Strike
Fighter Attack 1: Footwork Lure
Warlock Attack 1: Eldritch Strike
Fighter Attack 1: Tempest Dance
Fighter Utility 2: Glowering Threat
Warlock Attack 3: Cloud of Flies
Warlock Utility 6: Walk Through Darkness
Fighter Attack 7: Come and Get It
Warlock Attack 9: Summons of Khirad
Fighter Utility 10: Clearheaded
Avernian Knight Attack 11: Curse Strike
Avernian Knight Utility 12: Avernian Challenge
Warlock Attack 13: Killing Flames
Fighter Attack 15: Unyielding Avalanche
 
FEATS
Spiked Chain Training
Level 2: Flail Expertise
Level 4: Hybrid Talent
Level 6: Warlock's Sight
Level 8: Stoneroot's Endurance
Level 10: Powerful Strike
Level 11: Dragging Flail
Level 12: Deadly Draw
Level 14: Improved Defenses
 
ITEMS
Scale Armor x1
Spiked chain x1
====== End ======

Avernian knight

Idea here comes with a mix of marking with being able to use ES for my CC. Spiked chain is perhaps not the best of weapons, but adding reach to an at will slide that I can convert to prone and still get the slide anyway, plus I retain CA even if the offending target uses another action to stand up on the same turn. Theme wise, wielding flaming chains just looks good if your going for a real infernal look.

Downside is my AC is on the low side. Looking for ways I can keep the general build and buff defenses higher. I am aware that just by playing hybrid here I lose a few defender qualities to pick up some striker/controller power, so this character is probably a bad choice as the main tank.


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Zanne, level 15
Elf, Fighter (Knight), Eldritch Knight
Knight Option: Shield Finesse
Knight Weapon Specialization Option: Bladed Step
Inherent Bonuses
Arcane Sentinel (Arcana class skill)
Theme: Wizard's Apprentice
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 12, CON 19, DEX 13, INT 22, WIS 15, CHA 9
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 11, CON 15, DEX 10, INT 16, WIS 14, CHA 8
 
 
AC: 30 Fort: 29 Ref: 31 Will: 27
HP: 118 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 29
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +21, Athletics +11, Endurance +14, Heal +14
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +9, History +13, Insight +9, Intimidate +6, Nature +11, Perception +11, Religion +13, Stealth +6, Streetwise +6, Thievery +6
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Wizard's Apprentice Attack: Color Orb
Elf Racial Power: Elven Accuracy
Fighter Attack: Battle Guardian
Multiple Class Utility: Defender Aura
Fighter Utility: Poised Assault
Fighter Utility: Battle Wrath
Multiple Class Attack: Power Strike
Fighter Utility: Defend the Line
Heal Utility 2: Iron Resurgence
Wizard's Apprentice Utility 6: Winged Step
Wizard Attack 7: Ghoul Strike
Fighter Utility 8: Shield Block
Fighter Utility 10: Iron Defiance
Eldritch Knight Utility 12: Eldritch Leap
 
FEATS
Shield Finesse
Level 1: Heart of the Blade
Level 2: Intelligent Blademaster
Level 4: Superior Fortitude
Level 6: Superior Reflexes
Level 8: Heavy Armor Agility
Level 10: Encouraging Shield
Level 11: Superior Will
Level 12: Grit
Level 14: Heavy Blade Expertise
 
ITEMS
Plate Armor x1
Heavy Shield x1
Longsword x1
====== End ======

Eldritch Knight

Yes, I know having a low strength detracts somewhat from Battle Guardian, but picking up some swordmage for Intelligent blademaster fills in the gap, plus lets me focus more on other aspects of the class. Higher Reflex then most defenders get for the same reason. I have also stuck largely with the core essentials powers here, as well as skill powers. Will need to check with my DM on that one.

Will add other builds as I toy around with ideas.
RPGtable username : RTiger
For the Knight one, why not make yourself an Eladrin instead of an Elf, and take Feywild Guardian in place of Battle Guardian?
The Warforged has two bad NADS and is dominate bait. I'd rather for an INT/CON Swordmage|Warlock, use your class boosts on WILL and maybe take a theme to boost it also as Order Adept is still a solid theme (though utilities for both classes are already good). If you're starting at 15 you already have the feat slots you need. I like SK Pact for original, Infernal for Twofold. Go Shielding and you can take Dimensional Vortex and Transposing Lunge at 3 and 7.
What about Vader?
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Too much?

I've yet to see Vader in action, though I will in a couple of levels. 
Could also be mentioned that "Born Under a Bad Sign" doesn't do anything when Con is your main stat and it seems like other defender classes hybrid with warlock a lot better than fighter.

I am also completely lost as to why you wouldn't just have an eladrin knight and all the fun goodies that go with it like Brandark says.
Avernian Knight works best on a Warlock|Paladin
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Here is another idea that comes to mind. Flailcheese mostly, but there are other options, maybe?

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Shawna, level 15
Human, Warden/Warlock, Avernian Knight
Hybrid Warden Option: Hybrid Warden Will
Hybrid Warlock Option: Hybrid Warlock Reflex
Eldritch Strike Option: Eldritch Strike Constitution
Hybrid Talent Option: Warden's Armored Might
Eldritch Pact (Hybrid) Option: Infernal Pact (Hybrid)
Guardian Might Option: Stormheart
Human Power Selection Option: Bonus At-Will Power
Inherent Bonuses
Everwatch Conscript (+2 to Perception)
Theme: Ironwrought
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 20, CON 20, DEX 15, INT 11, WIS 14, CHA 9
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 14, DEX 14, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 8
 
 
AC: 30 Fort: 28 Ref: 28 Will: 28
HP: 118 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 29
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +15, Endurance +15, Heal +14, Insight +14, Perception +16
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Arcana +7, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +9, History +7, Intimidate +6, Nature +9, Religion +7, Stealth +6, Streetwise +6, Thievery +6
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Ironwrought Attack: Inevitable Strike
Warden Feature: Warden's Fury
Warden Feature: Warden's Grasp
Warlock's Curse  Power: Warlock's Curse
Warlock Attack 1: Eyes of the Vestige
Warlock Attack 1: Eldritch Strike
Warden Attack 1: Warden's Lunge
Warlock Attack 1: Vile Brand
Warlock Utility 2: Assassin's Bane
Warlock Attack 3: Cloud of Flies
Warden Utility 6: Bear's Endurance
Warden Attack 7: Mountain's Stature
Warden Attack 9: Form of the Oak Sentinel
Warlock Utility 10: Ethereal Sidestep
Avernian Knight Attack 11: Curse Strike
Avernian Knight Utility 12: Avernian Challenge
Warlock Attack 13: Killing Flames
Warlock Attack 15: Caution of Dispater
 
FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Triple-headed flail)
Level 2: Flail Expertise
Level 4: Improved Defenses
Level 6: Deadly Draw
Level 8: Warlock's Sight
Level 10: Battle Awareness
Level 11: Dragging Flail
Level 12: Lashing Flail
Level 14: Encouraging Shield
 
ITEMS
Hide Armor x1
Heavy Shield x1
Triple-headed flail x1
====== End ======
RPGtable username : RTiger
Maybe you should work on learning what a Defender is before trying to make one? Stupid feat tricks to patch a hybrid only work when you know exactly what you're doing. That your first offering in this thread had Level+12 AC tells me that you don't.

Go read the handbooks, build something simple, know your role.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I know what a defender is. Hold attention and protect the other characters. Be the center of attention for the enemy. Admittedly, using flails like this adds a bit of a controller element, but the effect is similar. Any targeted enemy won't get very far.

I will also admit I am more used to playing the role of a controller. Wizard, Ranger, Seeker. I more often then not end up as those classes in actual play.

I made this while referring to the so called handbooks. Thats not to say I have seen any of these characters in action. I don't play in ten games a week unfortunately. I also added Inherant bonuses to these for simplicity sake, lanning to pick items later.

It is no fun simply taking anothers pure op build and trying to play as it. I want to play my own character. These I've posted may very well be able to, and more so after I have picked out items. all I am looking for is. Will the base idea work, or should I stop trying.

The Eldrich knight, when switched over to Eladrin for some extra goods (That I wasn't aware of) looks promicing. After building the human, I can see the warforged build is garbage. The feats can probably be better, but that is mostly why I am here. To figure out and work with others to make an idea better. Isn't that what Optimizing a character is all about? Not everything works. thats just how it is.


Rant aside. I have put some thought into this Warden/Warlock Avernian knight. Wardens can mark any target as a free action, Though as a hybrid that is only a single target and not burst 1. Wardens Lunge lets me expand this to an extra target so I can esily have at least 2 marks at any given time. That stacks with Hellish mark once I get it at 16, and even if the enemy beside me is not marked, I still got ways to punish it for ignoring me with battle awareness. Just going by the basic attack anything I hit gets slid 2 and knocked prone as well as offering me CA easily to make my prey simple to hit, and that can also tag in curse damage for some extra DPS in a pinch. At later levels I intend on adding Psychic lock to futher control the field in favor.

What I have here is a mix of forced movement and control effects that make it even harder for an enemy to escape, or simply to sling an enemy in an unfavorable position. These defenses are also solid with no defense being particularly weak. They can get better once I add in items and conditionals, but I havent got that far yet.
RPGtable username : RTiger
To be honest, the way you describe a defender you almost seem to forget about the "don't die" part. A mage can also hold the attention of enemies and be the center of attention and thus prevent blows to the allies. This would not be a good idea since you would die fast.

What you should do is to make sure that the enemy would much prefer to attack an ally of yours because they won't hit you for any significant damage while at the same time you make sure that they do not dare or can't to attack anyone else.
That should go without saying, though I have held attention as the wizard before and things turned fine. Wizards actually can get defenses to rival defenders if built right.

As for staying alive, you generally have two options. Make sure you can't be hit, or have ways to cut damage dramatically. Though, I don't think any of these come close to the 7/8th orc I play with on weekends. Enemy only hits him on an 18+ (Usually never cause of the warlord and other tricks)

But again, no items here yet, so I can probably improve it if the base is good.

Of the builds here, I want to see if I can get this avernian knight up to that level. I already have fairly good action denial, I just need to build on options for survivability. A few feats can be tossed around. Deadly draw and warlocks sight are more striker then defender oriented after all. and Lashing flail I admit is somewhat redundant with ES.
RPGtable username : RTiger
To be honest, the way you describe a defender you almost seem to forget about the "don't die" part. A mage can also hold the attention of enemies and be the center of attention and thus prevent blows to the allies. This would not be a good idea since you would die fast.

What you should do is to make sure that the enemy would much prefer to attack an ally of yours because they won't hit you for any significant damage while at the same time you make sure that they do not dare or can't to attack anyone else.



Of that I know quite well. Playing a mage in another game, more often then not I look for ways I can get the fighter surrounded. I know the role of a controller quite well


RPGtable username : RTiger
"Holding attention" sounds more like a video game thing. Although the mark mechanic is similar, it doesn't really work quite that way.

Building a defender is a balancing act. A marked monster basically has two choices: obey your mark and attack you, or disobey the mark and attack someone else. The balancing act is to make both of these choices as unappealing as possible. If you put too much into mark enforcement and not enough into defenses/retaliation for hitting you, the monster will gladly just attack you. If you do the opposite, the monster will always ignore you.

You want to get to the point where no matter what he does, your mark will regret it.

You also need to consider the limitations of your punishment. A Fighter can easily mark 4-5 enemies and pull them adjacent with Come and Get It, but if they all decide to violate his mark, he can only punish one of them. Think about power combos or other features you can use to counter these kinds of weaknesses.

Of course I can see you're more versed in this than some folks are giving you credit for. Your Avernian Knight would actually be something closer to level+17 AC with up-to-date armor factored in. It may be worth it to fully equip these guys, not just to see where their defenses really are, but also because items can have a pretty massive effect on your defending abilities.
True enough. I just want to see what ideas might actually work, as picking gear tends to take the longest.
RPGtable username : RTiger
Updated Human Avernian Knighht,

Ignoring my mark gets to be ugly with this setup, enforcing a -5 at close range against allies if I hit. Defenses are +2 from the armor. That leaves me with Level +17 AC and +16 on my NAD's. Hitting with any basic attack provides me with THP. An enemy that gets my attention is easier to hit,, and I get several options to use counterattacks.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Shawna, level 15
Human, Warden/Warlock, Avernian Knight
Hybrid Talent Option: Warden's Armored Might
Guardian Might Option: Stormheart
Eldritch Strike Option: Eldritch Strike Constitution
Hybrid Warden Option: Hybrid Warden Will
Eldritch Pact (Hybrid) Option: Infernal Pact (Hybrid)
Hybrid Warlock Option: Hybrid Warlock Reflex
Human Power Selection Option: Bonus At-Will Power
Everwatch Conscript (+2 to Perception)
Theme: Ironwrought
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 20, CON 20, DEX 15, INT 11, WIS 14, CHA 9
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 14, DEX 14, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 8
 
 
AC: 30 Fort: 29 Ref: 29 Will: 29
HP: 118 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 29
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +15, Endurance +15, Heal +14, Insight +14, Perception +16
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Arcana +7, Bluff +9, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +9, History +7, Intimidate +9, Nature +9, Religion +7, Stealth +6, Streetwise +6, Thievery +6
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Ironwrought Attack: Inevitable Strike
Warden Feature: Warden's Fury
Warden Feature: Warden's Grasp
Warlock's Curse  Power: Warlock's Curse
Warlock Attack 1: Eyes of the Vestige
Warlock Attack 1: Eldritch Strike
Warden Attack 1: Warden's Lunge
Warlock Attack 1: Vile Brand
Warlock Utility 2: Assassin's Bane
Warlock Attack 3: Cloud of Flies
Warden Utility 6: Bear's Endurance
Warden Attack 7: Mountain's Stature
Warden Attack 9: Form of the Oak Sentinel
Warlock Utility 10: Ethereal Sidestep
Avernian Knight Attack 11: Curse Strike
Avernian Knight Utility 12: Avernian Challenge
Warlock Attack 13: Killing Flames
Warlock Attack 15: Caution of Dispater
 
FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Triple-headed flail)
Level 2: Flail Expertise
Level 4: Improved Defenses
Level 6: Battle Awareness
Level 8: Encouraging Shield
Level 10: Mark of Warding
Level 11: Dragging Flail
Level 12: Protective Hex
Level 14: Ubiquitous Shield
 
ITEMS
Heavy Shield x1
Hide Armor of Dark Majesty +3 x1
Runic Triple-headed flail +3 x1
Amulet of Psychic Interference +3 x1
Strikebacks x1
Bracers of Enforced Regret x1
Boots of Quickness (heroic tier) x1
Circlet of Indomitability (heroic tier) x1
Belt of Vim (heroic tier) x1
Backlash Tattoo
====== End ======
RPGtable username : RTiger
And how exactly are you marking more than a single enemy? You have a single encounter multimark, your defenses really aren't that impressive unless you work on cursing a lot of targets, and your accuracy is poor from taking 2 post racial 16s. You also don't have superior will by 15, which will cause some issues since you need your head slot to patch your defenses instead of Circlet of Arkhosia. 

There are some serious flaws here in "defending"
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I don't have the stats for Superior will till epic, and I don't have the money for that Circlet unless I give up one of my 3 free magic items. I hardly think that my accuracy is bad if you factor in that I have easy ways to get CA without giving up field position.

Wardens lunge gives me a free mark, and I can mark a target as a free action. Add that to tossing a curse as a minor and I can quite easilly assure any target I have marked is also cursed.
RPGtable username : RTiger