Half-Orc knife thrower build

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Hello, I've only played a couple of sessions and I'd like to play a very specific character, the half-Orc knife thrower build, I'm not worried enough about optimization that I'll change character race but I will listen to any advice for classes that enhance my knife throwing abilitys. 
We started at level five and are now at six I haven't rolled ability scores for this one yet.
First off, why the hell would you choose Half-Orc? They're beyond trash. They're up there with Half-Elf with most trash races ever printed.

Either way, you're gonna want to go Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade if you're really sold on Half-Orc, although there are numerous races that are flat-out better, have better options, and throwing generally sucks without a couple of builds(Such as Bloodstorm Blade, but even then they're gonna be inferior to flat warblade).

I recommend just going flat Warblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade 1, although you'll not be useful outside of melee until level 7, it's still the only way to salvage the garbage that's half-orc. 
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
Hello, I've only played a couple of sessions and I'd like to play a very specific character, the half-Orc knife thrower build, I'm not worried enough about optimization that I'll change character race but I will listen to any advice for classes that enhance my knife throwing abilitys. 
We started at level five and are now at six I haven't rolled ability scores for this one yet.


EA, with that bold bit in mind, need I remind you...
9. Respect the parameters of the request. 
This used to be a given, but people have been backsliding a lot lately. Someone comes on and says, "Hey, I'd like to play a Bard 4/Cleric 4. Can anyone help me optimize this? He immediately gets responses which boil down to, "Only an idiot would play that! You should be playing Pun-Pun, he's MUCH more powerful!" Sometimes they're more nicely phrased than this, other times they're not. 

The point is: people aren't offering him suggestions on how to make his character of choice better. They're telling him that he's "wrong" for playing that character, and that he should be playing a different character.

The same goes for threads in which the poster explains the DM's house rules and restrictions at the beginning of the thread. More often than not, if these restrictions amount to more than "No infinite power at first level," someone will respond with the oh-so-helpful suggestion "Your DM sucks. Quit his game and never talk to him again."

I only wish that were hyperbole. It's word-for-word from a thread a while back.

Optimization is about working within the rules to greatest effect. ANYONE can optimize in an environment with no restrictions. It takes skill to optimize where options are limited.

Threads like these should be seen as an opportunity to demonstrate that skill...not belittle the poster or the DM.

I concur it's a bad race, but if he's specifically requesting to play one, then that's what he's going to play. 

(Mind you, if the reason he's playing half-orc isn't mechanical - i.e. he's got a backstory for child-of-two-races and so on that he wants to work with - nothing stops him from using a better mechanical element with a different fluff. TheEvilSoky, if you could express your racial concept with something better than the race labelled "half-orc", and describe your new race as a half-orc, would you?)



All that said, I concur: bloodstorm blade is the prestige class to aim for, particularly if your vision of throwing involves heavy strength instead of grace (and if it's grace, why are you a half orc?). There are maneuvers to consider if you're going for ranged combat, but you'll still do better in melee. Here's the entry I'd use, assuming all books and a higher Strength than Dexterity (to fit the stereotype).

1 Warblade - Brutal Throw | Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind | 
2 Warblade - Steely Strike
3 Warblade - Point Blank Shot - Wall of Blades
4 Warblade - Exchange Wolf Fang Strike for Disarming Strike
5 Warblade - Iron Heart Aura | Iron Heart Surge | Absolute Steel
6 Bloodstorm Blade - Quick Draw*

This goes a little heavy on the Iron Heart strikes because of the Bloodstorm Blade's Martial Throw ability at level 2.

Also, Quick Draw is there because I don't know thrown-weapons as well as I'd like; there's probably a better feat. Remember that drawing a knife is NOT a free action (only ammo and shurikens have that). If you plan on making use of returning weapons (remember that enhancing daggers is quite expensive compared to enhancing ammo), you can replace Quick Draw with cheap Crystals of Return from the MIC. A better choice for the bloodstorm blade would be Power Attack, but that won't work with light weapons like knives.


Most of the other "throwing" weapon specialists out there are either rather expensive to get into with very little bang (read: Master Thrower; you can sometimes find use for one of the tricks in other builds but it's not that hot a class all things considered) or lend themselves to different concepts than the ones you're discussing (i.e. Soulbow). Bloodstorm Blade can remain useful, but it lends itself more to the "melee character transitions into ranged combat" idea rather than a distance character to begin with.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
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Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

TS, first off, read my post. Seriously, I made specific recommendations if he refused to change his race. Second, I honestly have questions on the sincerity of that statement. He said he didn't care enough about optimization enough to change the race, which is not only contradicted by the fact that he posted here in the first place, but there's no effort involved for him on the matter. Third, he's never specifically mentioned any fluff, which, combined with his statement about not caring, leaves me with the assumption that it's sloth.

So, yeah, no. You're wrong on three counts. 
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
(Mind you, if the reason he's playing half-orc isn't mechanical - i.e. he's got a backstory for child-of-two-races and so on that he wants to work with - nothing stops him from using a better mechanical element with a different fluff. TheEvilSoky, if you could express your racial concept with something better than the race labelled "half-orc", and describe your new race as a half-orc, would you?)
I hate to ask but could you reiterate please?

Well the half-Orc IS partially mechanical, the bulk the the char I've envisioned is built on the idea that a slave (half-orcs have been established in our campaign as slaves that are rarely seen as smart enough to read) uses his natural strength to imbue, rather than hinder, the art knife throwing, so I suppose any race that could conceivably be dirt eating slaves with fairly high strength scores could work, I also had a story planned for the human side of the parentage, but little in the way of the Orc side of things, I didn't realize how poorly half-orcs were viewed in the mechanics side of things though, but as I said any substitute of race must be convincingly physically strong race of half-breed slaves.

My not caring about race is more on the side of not wanting to play a gnome or halfling or any of the're kin, or elves or humans, this leaves very little in the basic races, (goliaths are also already set up as fairly treated citizens of the world) I do however care about what would be the best classes to choose and weapons to wield, as well as whether or not to pick up weapon focus' for said weapons, all things like that just not if it requires me to be dragged into a race I don't care to play so if anyone wants to give anymore suggestions based on my revision please do tell.


In case you want a revised request,
Strength based throw build, race requirement on being a half-breed slave.
Half-breed? They all suck. If you want strength, go all the way Orc, or even better Water Orc . Pretty much everything else is completely and totally inferior for the purposes of hitting stuff.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
Well I never noticed that the full blood Orc didn't have a level adjustment, that really puts the half-orc sucking into perspective and makes them seem horribly pointless, however I have to ask what the big deal is with water races? extra Con correct?

...I may indeed do that and see if I can't work the parentage different, your rampant douchebaggery has not gone unappreciated.
Although all the talk of race has sidetrack from the main reason I came here, making a pure weapon throwing build, which has been pretty hard, I was originally going to split Warblade and fighter (for bonus feats) till I got up to prestige level and split between BSB and master thrower, and my DM ok'd reflavoring Hulking Hurler for a med race provided I had a high enough STR score.
I will of course be taking the suggestions into account now focusing purely on warblade till I split prestige

however this still leaves the main reason for my thread and the same problem everyone has pointed out, the chars melee damage will outright trump the range damage he can do, any clues on ways I could fix this? or any particicular thrown weapons I could use that would at least level the difference?

@TS www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Quick_Draw This says quick draw affects all weapons, it may be wrong though, but the build was banking a lot on it.
I also appreciate your (far more nicely put) input.
Mechanically, you could use the rules for orc or water orc, but say its a half orc.

EA has a negative Diplomacy modifier, but that doesn't mean he's not correct.

Quick Draw does affect all weapons. However, you don't need it to free draw shuriken or ammo, and on weapons you don't throw you can use Least Crystals of Return to the same end. This means that Quick Draw largely becomes a feat tax on knife throwers. I usually suggest using shuriken rules for specialist throwing knives and leaving it at that.

And since melee gets all of the Power Attack options, and that is the real source of most weapon damage, you can't really "level the field" without Bloodstorm Blade (level 2 gets a thrown Power Attack). However, the bigger bonuses go to two-handed weapons, which take a full round action to throw. Hence why I went for Sudden Leap in my example build.

Sorry we can't be more helpful: light-weapon throwing tends to be really expensive and ineffective.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

The water orc is slightly better for the role (an extra point on Str and Con modifiers at the cost of a point on the Wis modifier), but the half-orc isn't utterly horrible for it, just not quite as good.  "Horrible" would be building a Strength-based thrower with something like a jermlaine as the base race.

I don't have much to add here on the class selection; aiming for Bloodstorm Blade is ideal, as has been mentioned, though even there it's not really offering anything for the throwing of light weapons in particular.

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The problem I tend to find with throwing is that the range increment is pretty short, so you generally may as well go into melee instead. I guess you can use your Dex instead of Str, and it's like having a greater reach on your turn (cover more area, but no AoO), and with something like Far Shot it's not too bad (one range increment is still going to be meh, but being able to throw further with a penalty still offers flexibility).

Could you, say, throw kukris and use Blood in the Water? It seems as though doing raw damage through throwing is going to be poor, but hitting reliably might be something you can do better (you can full attack more often without having to move, say, so no need for Pounce or Sudden Leap or whatever). If you were both a Bloodstorm Blade and a Dervish, could you dance whilst throwing? Don't know why you would (Skirmish?), but there you go.

Things like drawing weapons, Returning, Precise Shot, Brutal Throw (CAd; Str instead of Dex), Throw Anything, etc, all just feel like "taxes" when melee can do all that already.

You can get Power Throw, too (CAd) which is PA for thrown weapons. It's only +1/-1 and Bloodstorm Blade already gives you that, but note it doesn't say anything about Light weapons. 
Well I never noticed that the full blood Orc didn't have a level adjustment, that really puts the half-orc sucking into perspective and makes them seem horribly pointless, however I have to ask what the big deal is with water races? extra Con correct?

Yeah, +4 str and +2 con. This can be cranked up further with things like the Arctic template.
...I may indeed do that and see if I can't work the parentage different, your rampant douchebaggery has not gone unappreciated.

Rampant douchebaggery? I beg to differ. You asked for help. A frank, honest, and completely unvarnished truth is about the nicest thing someone can do.

But, still, that's the nicest thing someone's said to me here in ages.  I'm touched.
Although all the talk of race has sidetrack from the main reason I came here, making a pure weapon throwing build, which has been pretty hard, I was originally going to split Warblade and fighter (for bonus feats) till I got up to prestige level and split between BSB and master thrower, and my DM ok'd reflavoring Hulking Hurler for a med race provided I had a high enough STR score.

Don't. Fighter is an unnecessary and pointless investment.
however this still leaves the main reason for my thread and the same problem everyone has pointed out, the chars melee damage will outright trump the range damage he can do, any clues on ways I could fix this? or any particicular thrown weapons I could use that would at least level the difference?

Bloodstorm blade and not using daggers is the best advice I can give. If you were a halfling, you could throw out over a dozen attacks of decent damage with  save-or-stuns, but you're an orc, so your only advantage is strength 22.
I suggest taking a dip in Whirling Frenzy Lion Spirit Totem barbarian, by the way, just for the record.
@TS www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Quick_Draw This says quick draw affects all weapons, it may be wrong though, but the build was banking a lot on it.

Quickdraw is trash. It's a feat that can be replicated by the Returning least weapon crystal.
EA has a negative Diplomacy modifier, but that doesn't mean he's not correct.

Actually, in real life I have a decent one. I just elect not to use it because it's pointless and can interfere with my point.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
You can get Power Throw, too (CAd) which is PA for thrown weapons. It's only +1/-1 and Bloodstorm Blade already gives you that, but note it doesn't say anything about Light weapons. 

...That's a great observation. I'd mentally logged that feat as "Thrown Power Attack", but didn't notice it lacked any interaction on handedness. It might be worth a stab here. Of course, all of the best multipliers are melee-only, but still...
Bloodstorm blade and not using daggers is the best advice I can give. If you were a halfling, you could throw out over a dozen attacks of decent damage with  save-or-stuns, but you're an orc, so your only advantage is strength 22.

Save or stun? I was sure you were referring to halfling boomerang-users until I saw that, but that's dazing instead of stunning (Boomerang Daze + ricochet + any general damage-booster). A quick search doesn't turn up anything for stunning. Got a link or stub handy, or was it just a typo?

EDIT: TheEvilSoky, here's the first build in the style EA is referring to. (And, interestingly, it uses Power Throw. This is one of those rare cases where a Master Thrower trick is very good, but A: it costs a lot of feats to get in, hence the straining in that initial attempt, and B: the specific trick in question is incompatible with a Strength-based thrower.) There was quite a lot of work on that stunt in the intervening years.
Quickdraw is trash. It's a feat that can be replicated by the Returning least weapon crystal.

Which gets clumsy and expensive if you're creatively disarming yourself (throwing your weapons away), particularly with daggers (which lack shuriken's innate quickdraw or bulk-discount on enhancements, and lack the boomerang's inherent returning ability - the most expensive Return crystals do grant Returning to thrown weapons, but that requires a +3 enhancement bonus before you attach the gem.). Melee generally does ignore quickdraw in favor of those gems, of course; this is another place where throwing weapons get it in the shorts.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

And Bloodstorm Blades get their weapons back. I'm not seeing a problem.

And you're right about dazing. Just a little derp on my part. 
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
Returning weapons only come back to you after your turn, which means no full attack with more than you have hands.

Bloodstorm Blade makes this moot. I guess the best thing would be to take it, and if you're set on using light weapons (could use e.g. short swords and call them daggers) take Power Throw as well, instead of Power Attack... though Brutal Throw is wasted if you're already a Bloodstorm Blade. But then, I'm not sure if you'd even be allowed to use Power Throw if you were treating your attacks as melee.

I feel as though, using light weapons, you're better off getting something which triggers on hit and throwing as many per round as you can rather than trying to jump through hoops to get damage, when a two-hander melee dude is just going to trump that.

Maybe a Thri-Kreen multi-wielding Chatkcha (just because), but I dunno about a Half-Orc knife-thrower.
Half-breed slave race? Why not use half-giant?
Also, if you do a barbarian dip like EA suggests, then a fighter dip isn't bad. Something like WF (UA or SRD) Lion Spirit Totem (Complete Champion) Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Warblade X/Bloodstorm Blade Y only costs you one initiator level, but gives you some different class skills, Pounce, and a bonus feat.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
You can get Power Throw, too (CAd) which is PA for thrown weapons. It's only +1/-1 and Bloodstorm Blade already gives you that, but note it doesn't say anything about Light weapons. 

...That's a great observation. I'd mentally logged that feat as "Thrown Power Attack", but didn't notice it lacked any interaction on handedness. It might be worth a stab here. Of course, all of the best multipliers are melee-only, but still...

I'd also note that nothing says you can't apply both Power Attack and Power Throw if you're using an appropriate weapon, since the bloodstorm blade allows you to get around the normal melee limitation of Power Attack.

Obviously, that's not really applicable if you're set on using light weapons, but it's still interesting.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Some Dm's don't give the hobgoblin a +1 LA,see how yours feels about dropping the restriction? The Hobgoblin gets a +2 to Dex and Con,doesn't help a power thrower much. Some societies keep Hobgoblins as military slaves, this might give an acceptable background?

I will immediately report any Phishers or Lonely Hearts Scam Artists.

I'd also note that nothing says you can't apply both Power Attack and Power Throw if you're using an appropriate weapon, since the bloodstorm blade allows you to get around the normal melee limitation of Power Attack.

I'd have to check the wording, but would being treated as melee means you fail to qualify for Power Throw? I think not, since they're still thrown weapon attacks, just might be worth checking.
Curiously, it looks like Bloodstorm only makes your attack rolls melee, not your damage or anything, so maybe you could even get the +damage from Power Throw without taking that -AB, though I doubt that would ever fly. ;)
One interesting thing is that you could be entirely Dex-based with Power Throw... though you'd still need 13+ Str to take it, and I guess technically you could already do that with Power Attack and e.g. a Rapier (the rules being what they are...).
Some Dm's don't give the hobgoblin a +1 LA,see how yours feels about dropping the restriction?

Some DMs also let you get 30+ CL with Master Spellthief, so go figure. Though, yeah, the Hobgoblin is a bit underpowered for it's LA... but why would you want to be one? The Half-Orc is already better for this, with its Str bonus.
Well he knew it was a tough job when he took it, fred. The hobgoblin has a background of military slave which is sort of what he wants and explains some odd weapon choices. The orc strength bonus is paid for with a Int penalty, the hobgoblin comes with only bonuses, no penalties.

I will immediately report any Phishers or Lonely Hearts Scam Artists.

The orc strength bonus is paid for with a Int penalty, the hobgoblin comes with only bonuses, no penalties.

Ah, yes, because penalties in stats you'll never use is totally a fair trade for +4 strength, and that kind of deal, especially when you tack on +2 con from Water races, is massively inferior to minor bonuses to your secondary stats. I mean, it's not like strength determines your to-hit and damage, right?
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
I'd have to check the wording, but would being treated as melee means you fail to qualify for Power Throw? I think not, since they're still thrown weapon attacks, just might be worth checking.
Curiously, it looks like Bloodstorm only makes your attack rolls melee, not your damage or anything, so maybe you could even get the +damage from Power Throw without taking that -AB, though I doubt that would ever fly. ;)

There are a few arguments that I can see both for and against the wording, but without getting into all the details, the possibility seems definitely present unless you favour all the "against" arguments and none of the "for" arguments (since you only need one working way for it to apply).
Some DMs also let you get 30+ CL with Master Spellthief, so go figure. Though, yeah, the Hobgoblin is a bit underpowered for it's LA... but why would you want to be one? The Half-Orc is already better for this, with its Str bonus.

I went the opposite direction myself, adding a few extras to make hobgoblins worthwhile, but that's also partially in support of campaign flavour differences (I've got them as a human-goblin crossbreed made as soldiers by an ancient empire, the rare hobgoblins without the improvements being "natural" crossbreeds).
Well he knew it was a tough job when he took it, fred. The hobgoblin has a background of military slave which is sort of what he wants and explains some odd weapon choices. The orc strength bonus is paid for with a Int penalty, the hobgoblin comes with only bonuses, no penalties.

The orc also has light sensitivity and a Wisdom penalty (which are the cost it pays for having an extra 2 points of Strength over the half-orc), but that's beside the point.  While it's nice for the standard hobgoblin to have a couple of ability score bonuses without penalties, you're trading that off against an entire character level thanks to the Level Adjustment. 

What you gain on pure ability bonuses, you're generally losing (or more than losing) on the BAB, base save bonuses, skill points, and hit points that you'd gain from having another class level, and that's without even considering the special abilities that are features of the class.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Well , here I go trollbaiting again. I still think if you can talk the Dm out of the LA then the Hob-goblin will be better than the orc. If the OP wanted to maximise his damage he should switch to a Great-ax or an Orcish Double -Ax for melee and carry a sling for ranged attacks, he wouldn't even be making a role-playing ,sub-optimal choice like dagger. And still hold to my opinion that the hob-goblin raised as a military slave is a better background than orc work slave.

I will immediately report any Phishers or Lonely Hearts Scam Artists.

Well , here I go trollbaiting again. I still think if you can talk the Dm out of the LA then the Hob-goblin will be better than the orc. If the OP wanted to maximise his damage he should switch to a Great-ax or an Orcish Double -Ax for melee and carry a sling for ranged attacks, he wouldn't even be making a role-playing ,sub-optimal choice like dagger. And still hold to my opinion that the hob-goblin raised as a military slave is a better background than orc work slave.

A hobgoblin without the LA would be generally acceptable, but it wouldn't be adding much to this particular character if going with Bloodstorm Blade (since that allows you to focus on Strength).

I found it ironic to see it get mentioned because, even though it's not the normal case, the hobgoblin changes I've got for flavour (as I mentioned above in response to The Fred) mean it would fit the original concept of a half-breed perfectly in my own campaign.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
If the OP wanted to maximise his damage ... he wouldn't even be making a role-playing ,sub-optimal choice like dagger.

What you're saying is "you're making a bad build anyway, so why bother trying to make it less bad?" which is a fallacy. Within the parameters given (Half-Orc or similar dagger-thrower), Orc or Half-Orc is surely better than Hobgoblin since it has the Str bonus which applies to damage (and with Bloodstorm Blade or Brutal Throw, AB, making it better than the Hobgoblin's +2 Dex). Suggesting that he go through all the hassle of trying to persuade his DM to let him play a Hobgoblin with no LA when that wouldn't even really benefit him (yeah a 0 LA Hobgoblin is probably one of the stronger races, but it's less specialised) seems kinda, well, silly IMO.

My suggestion would be to go Orc (or Half-Orc if not) into Bloodstorm Blade (Lightning Riccochet is just too important) and take Power Throw as well, supposing your DM lets you use it with the Blade's melee thing (he should, just be aware there's something of a case for one to try and stomp it). That's still kinda sub-par because you're spending a feat to PA with light weapons when one-handed or bigger weapons you could use real PA for but it's better than no PA I guess. Another option might be two-weapon fighting, if you can get the Dex as well, since that's the only real benefit I can think of that light weapons have.

Possibly also throwing kukris instead of daggers (flavour them as plain daggers if you wish) and using Blood in the Water, which is slow to charge but can stack pretty high - at least until you get Bloodstorm Blade's melee power, then you can use whatever (supposing the DM doesn't rule that "melee attack rolls" thing too strictly). 
So I had another look at this, and it seems that making a full attack with thrown weapons is extra annoying, because even Returning weapons need to be caught all at once, so if you throw a whole bunch of them, you can only catch two at the start of your next turn. Yuck. No full attack for you. Obviously the Bloodstorm Blade's Lightning Riccochet solves this, but an alternative appears to be the Hurl spell (SpC p117; S/W L2). It causes thrown weapons to come back and hover next to you for a round. Useful? Maybe not, but I can of want to try and do something with it anyway.