3.5 challenge... A historic rapier (real) vs our rules...

13 posts / 0 new
Last post
Check this out. I subscribe to many knife and tool catalogs because I'm an IRL collector, not just a gamer. So I happened upon this. I want one for me, of course, but I suddenly wonder if I don't want one for a character as well! 

Disclaimer: I am in no way affiliated with this website/product and stand to make no gold pieces for posting it; It is for demonstrative purpose only.

Our rules stipulate that a rapier is a one-handed weapon that you cannot add two-handed STR bonus to, but may finesse.

A rapier in our rules is piercing only. Note that this edge may be sharpened (slashing weapon as well!)

What would you do with this weapon?:  www.museumreplicas.com/p-2103-dresden-ra... 

I mean, really, in-game, your player really wants it...  How would you rule?

(Sorry, too lazy to actually post pictures and that, besides which, it might be copyright shite and all that... The catalogue piccies better illustrate how the dagger actually is longer than past the rapier hilt, but you can see it if you look close at the first picture there)

Neue  

PS: The site doesn't show the fine print, but the catalog does include: "Inspired by the circa 1500 similar combinations weapons in the Historisches Museum, Dresden and the book Kombinations Waffen, plate 178"

Edit: I'm a frickin' idiot. I didn't even see that there is also a video included at the bottom when I posted this...
You call it a longsword with a concealed dagger. The concept of the rapier as it's applied in D&D represents later and lighter rapiers than this design, of a higher grade of steel than a 1500's sword such as that and poorly designed for penetrating encompasing armor.
Even then, that's a thrusting sword. Its sharp edge helps with that - not all piercing weapons are just a point on a shaft. Trying to slash with that sword is a recipe for disaster.

As for the dagger, that exact modification shows up in.... I forget. Either Complete Adventurer or Complete Scoundrel. It gives you space in a weapon to hide an object ... I think two sizes smaller in it. A dagger would fit.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

What ever want to call the primary weapon (longsword, rapier, or even shortsword) it is simply some modification allowing it to hold a dagger.  In all honesty, if you try wielding the weapon you will most likely want the dagger in its "home" position because with it removed it will COMPLETELY alter the balance of the larger weapon.

As Tempest mentions just because you can sharpen an edge doesn't mean you will get a truely effective slashing weapon.  I'd tell you that a lot of a "slashing" weapons damage also comes from an impact (bludgeoning) even with the slashing part altering how it is carried out.  I'm not too sure how well that blade would take any kind of major impact on its side.
The sharp edge just helps it slide through tough material and hopefully eases pulling it back so it doesn't get stuck in bone, leather, muscle or metal. It's definitely not designed to slash or hack.

I mean, c'mon, nobody has ever said a rapier has no edge, it's that you fight with the point. A classic move with rapiers is being able to flick the wick off a candle...you do need an edge to do that. 

==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
To me the classical rapier is the one from stories like the Trois Mousquetaires. That's definifely a piercing weapon. I imagine it looks like this:
sabresempire.blogspot.nl/2012/02/rapiere...

I would call the thing in your link a Bastard Sword with hidden Dagger given that it can also be wielded two handed.

5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."

 

I once asked the question (in D&D 3.5) "Does a Druid4/Wizard3/ArcaneHierophant1 have Wildshape?". Jesse Decker and Andy Collins: Yes and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Rich Redman and Ed Stark: No and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Skip Williams: Lol, it's worded ambiguously and entirely not how I intended it. (Cust. Serv. Reference# 050815-000323)

What ever want to call the primary weapon (longsword, rapier, or even shortsword) it is simply some modification allowing it to hold a dagger.  In all honesty, if you try wielding the weapon you will most likely want the dagger in its "home" position because with it removed it will COMPLETELY alter the balance of the larger weapon.


I suspect the dagger is intended to be used if the main blade breaks or gets stuck in the target. Having it in the hilt instead of in its own sheath ensures that it's easy to draw if your hand is already on the hilt, and has the slight deceptive edge of not being as readily apparant from a secondary sheath. This is a very different scenario than, say, using it as a feint to draw the dagger and strike with it (or with both weapons).

As Tempest mentions just because you can sharpen an edge doesn't mean you will get a truely effective slashing weapon.  I'd tell you that a lot of a "slashing" weapons damage also comes from an impact (bludgeoning) even with the slashing part altering how it is carried out.  I'm not too sure how well that blade would take any kind of major impact on its side.


Against mail and plate armor, slashing weapons are really just advanced clubs. They'll break bones or deliver concussions if they're aimed right, but they won't deliver quickly-fatal blow. That's why swords are typically designed to pierce as well (German and Scottish two-handers with foreguards take this to the next level and can act as short spears), and why once plate armor showed up, swords weren't seen as the primary weapons anymore (typically those were lances or pikes, depending on whether you were mounted or not; you drew your sword if there was a melee or if you were fighting unarmored foes).

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Trying to slash with that sword is a recipe for disaster.

Trying to slash with any sword is a recipe for disaster. Short swords and shield walls are how we do it in the hood.

And by "the hood", I mean the Roman army, of course.
Pssh. Give me a company of Welsh longbowmen and a unit of Scottish berserkers. We'll take that shield wall apart!
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Actually, you probably won't take that shield wall apart. That shield wall only fell apart when gunfire and cavalry were introduced, and even then the latter didn't do much until after it was breached. Shield walls work just fine against bowfire if the troops are pros...and the Romans were definitely pros.

==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you

As for me I'll call it Quickblade rapier (CAdv 116). I would say that dagger brings some flavor description of properties it has.

Still, the main problem that you have is that D&D 3.5 books are not making difference (as I know) between rapier and epee (rapier sword?) at all (not sure about the epee, the most similar meaning to the word "spada" in Italian and "degen" in German which I could find in English). And that blade you have shown is not "rapier", at least not in the classical Oakeshott typology. Rapier is lighter than epee and you can only make piercing attacks with it. Epee is more familiar to the longsword so you can strike cut and thrust with it. 

Here is good movie if you have some doubts about considering that blade as rapier or sword in D&D terms. Just think over is it possible to use it in both styles? I guess  not.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r7VWIQCHvM
What ever want to call the primary weapon (longsword, rapier, or even shortsword) it is simply some modification allowing it to hold a dagger.  In all honesty, if you try wielding the weapon you will most likely want the dagger in its "home" position because with it removed it will COMPLETELY alter the balance of the larger weapon.


I suspect the dagger is intended to be used if the main blade breaks or gets stuck in the target. Having it in the hilt instead of in its own sheath ensures that it's easy to draw if your hand is already on the hilt, and has the slight deceptive edge of not being as readily apparant from a secondary sheath. This is a very different scenario than, say, using it as a feint to draw the dagger and strike with it (or with both weapons).


I was actually thinking the dagger may be intended for use if there isn't enough time/room to draw the sword.  With the hand resting on the pommel it should be a lot faster to "draw" and strike with the dagger from the end of the sword then it would be to do the same with the sword  You'd be at a disadvantage after that initial speed but that is how I was visuallizing its use.
 
Not exactly on topic at all, but Museum Replicas has some awesome stuff.  I used to get their mailer thingy and it was always full of awesome (and expensive) goodies with very good descriptions. 

Oh, and if it's armor we're goin' against?  Gimme a hammer pick or a war axe.  ;)  Swords are nothin' compared to a good ol' fashioned can opener.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]