Rnager (scout) help

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So the group is a Battlemind, Laser Cleric, Inspiring Warlord, and me. Im going with the Scout to help finish off what i feel is needed. I will be playing a Elf Scout with 2 Axes for the +4 damage each turn. The main reason for using the Scout is i dont want to play a pure Ranger, just not my cup or tea, and we need nature and perception to help round out the skills needed, our GM likes to put really nice things everywhere. 

So i never used the Scout before so was wondering how well they play. 

Im also thinking of different feats to use throughout my levels. let me know if they work well with the class and if there is any other kind of feats i should use instead.

1: Axe Expertiese 
2: Two Weapon Attack
4: Two Weapon Defense
6:Weapon Focus (Axe)
8: Improved Defenses
10: Undicided

 Also using Cunning Fox and Charging Ram
cunning stalker as the 10th feat to give yourself combat advantage reliably.

looks good.

 
Well, is it feats only you want advice on, because if that is your line up, you might do with more help.

I would go with WoodElf, both for flavor and mechanics, ability scores 8/11/18/10/14/10.

Feats:
Light Blade Expertise
Superior Reflexes (near guaranteed to go first, might as well get CA out of it)
Martial Cross Training  (for Fox' Cunning, nice to have an interrupt that lets you hit again, trigger is likely to happen)
Superior Will (getting dazed is not fun at all)
Two Weapon Fighting
Weapon Focus
Deft Blade (paragon)

At level 2, please grab Invigorating Stride, and at level 6 Natural Terrain Understanding.


I am assuming you start at level 1, which means Erachima kinda shoots himself in the foot with reasons 2 and 3. However, I've found accuracy to be more fun that large damage, so I also prefer Light Blades.
Ya I see hitting more often is better so ill try that. Early lvl, which is where im starting axe is crazy amazing DPS and i assumed it just continued to be badass. But i see deft blade is probably an amazing trait and will help out much more and help out more. Also not sure if i like invigorating stride though. What i wanted to do mostly was stay in cunning fox and shift back every time i attack while the tank picks up most of the attacks. I know it wont work anywhere near 100% but will get rid of some of the guys from attacking me.
Invigorating Strides big benefit is not the shift, but the chance to use second wind (heal + defense boost) as a minor action.

EDIT: and 4e is not you WoW. All party members are expected to take some measure of damage, that is why you all have healing surges. If what you call the tank takes the vast majority of the damage, either he's going to be down soon, or you'll have to cut your work-day short. 
If you really want to use axes, make room for Headsman's Chop, and then charge as often as you can.
Your typical stances should be Charging Ram and Lurking Spider. There is really no need for anything else.

And actually you want enemies attacking you every now and then. You don't have a whole lot of immediate attacks otherwise. You take Martial Cross Training for Fox's Cunning, and some Strikebacks when you can get them, and/or maybe Elemental Initiate.

You also may want Surprising Charge (via rogue or fighter MC).

Cunning Stalker is good, but your Warlord, Cleric, and Battlemind should all be trying to give you CA whenever they can, you'll want to play that one by ear.
I misread Cunning Fox, i thought i always take half damage so ya Ram and Spider are probably the best to use. Thanks for all the help.
Rather than take Superior Reflexes Take Cunning Stalker. It will get you CA more often. 
If you really want to use axes, make room for Headsman's Chop, and then charge as often as you can.



And be a Revenant Dwarf.


And have your weapons be a Craghammer/Waraxe and a Gauntlet Axe.

Wednesday Character:

Dredge, Level 2 Revenant!Githzerai Night Stalker Assassin

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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Dredge, level 2
Revenant, Assassin
Build: Night Stalker Assassin
Guild Training: Night Stalker
Assassin: Black Flame Form
Choose your Race in Life: Githzerai
Background: Silent Hunter (Silent Hunter Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 15, Dex 20, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 18.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 15, Dex 18, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 16.


AC: 18 Fort: 14 Reflex: 16 Will: 16
HP: 29 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 7

TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth +12, Thievery +11, Bluff +10, Acrobatics +11, Perception +8

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +2, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +2, Endurance +5, Heal +2, History +2, Insight +2, Intimidate +7, Nature +2, Religion +2, Streetwise +5, Athletics

FEATS
Level 1: Githzerai Blade Master
Level 2: Ki Focus Expertise

POWERS
Assassin at-will 1: Shadow Storm
Assassin at-will 1: Executioner's Noose
Assassin encounter 1: Nightmare Shades
Assassin daily 1: Targeted for Death
Assassin utility 2: Agile Recovery

ITEMS
Leather Armor, Bastard sword, Light Shield, Flensing Fullblade +1, Helm of Seven Deaths, Magic Ki Focus +1
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Friday Character:

Snow, Level 3 Razorclaw Shifter Flashing Blade Scout

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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Snow, level 3
Razorclaw Shifter, Scout
Two-Weapon Style: Flashing Blade Mastery
Ranger Wilderness Knacks: Ambush Expertise
Ranger Wilderness Knacks: Watchful Rest
Background: River Smuggler (River Smuggler Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 15, Dex 20, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 13.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 15, Dex 18, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 13.


AC: 18 Fort: 15 Reflex: 18 Will: 16
HP: 37 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 9

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +10, Perception +10, Streetwise +8, Acrobatics +13, Stealth +13

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +2, Bluff +2, Diplomacy +2, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +3, Heal +5, History +2, Insight +5, Intimidate +2, Religion +2, Thievery +6, Athletics +1

FEATS
Feat User Choice: Spiked Chain Training
Level 1: Light Blade Expertise
Level 2: Improved Defenses

POWERS
Scout aspect of the wild (scout) 1: Aspect of the Charging Ram
Scout aspect of the wild (scout) 1: Aspect of the Dancing Serpent
Level 2 Scout Utility Power: Invigorating Stride

ITEMS
Leather Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Climber's Kit, Sack (8), Relentless Spiked chain +1, Dagger, Quickhit Braces (heroic tier)
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Saturday Characters:

Vorgh, Level 15 Human Storm Sorcerer|Blizzard Mage

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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Vorgh, level 15
Human, Sorcerer, Blizzard Mage
Build: Storm Sorcerer
Spell Source: Storm Magic
Eldritch Strike: Eldritch Strike Charisma
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Cold
Human Power Selection: Heroic Effort
Windrise Ports Benefit: Windrise Ports (Acrobatics)
Arcane Admixture Power: Flame Spiral
Background: Windrise Ports (Windrise Ports Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 16, Dex 20, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 24.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 15, Dex 16, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 18.


AC: 28 Fort: 26 Reflex: 29 Will: 33
HP: 98 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 24

TRAINED SKILLS
Diplomacy +21, Arcana +15, Acrobatics +19, Bluff +21, Insight +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Dungeoneering +13, Endurance +14, Heal +13, History +12, Intimidate +18, Nature +13, Perception +13, Religion +12, Stealth +16, Streetwise +18, Thievery +16, Athletics +10

FEATS
Human: Staff Expertise
Level 1: Improved Defenses
Level 2: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 4: Implement Focus (Staff)
Level 6: Grounding Shot
Level 8: Unarmored Agility
Level 10: Against All Odds (retrained to Repel Charge at Level 11)
Level 11: War Wizardry
Level 12: Jack of All Trades
Level 14: Arcane Admixture

POWERS
Power User Choice: Eldritch Strike
Primordial Adept Starting Feature: Solkara's Wave
Ring of Borrowed Spells: Ice Dragon's Teeth
Ring of Borrowed Spells: Earthquake Strike
Sorcerer at-will 1: Blazing Starfall
Sorcerer at-will 1: Dragonfrost
Sorcerer encounter 1: Thundering Roar
Sorcerer daily 1: Ice Javelins
Sorcerer utility 2: Dragonflame Mantle
Sorcerer encounter 3: Flame Spiral
Sorcerer daily 5: Palest Flames
Sorcerer utility 6: Sudden Scales
Sorcerer encounter 7: Rimestorm
Sorcerer daily 9: Howling Hurricane
Sorcerer utility 10: Narrow Escape
Sorcerer encounter 13: Thunder Breath (replaces Thundering Roar)
Sorcerer daily 15: Lightning Daggers (replaces Ice Javelins)

ITEMS
Acrobat Boots (heroic tier), Viper Belt (heroic tier), Helm of Seven Deaths, Rhythm Blade Dagger +2, Ioun's Revelation (level 3), Executioner's Bracers (heroic tier), Backlash Tattoo (heroic tier), Ring of Fury (paragon tier), Raven Cloak +3, Staff of Ruin +3, Robe of Defying Flames Githweave Armor +3, Gloves of Ice (paragon tier), Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds, Ring of Borrowed Spells, Fundamental Ice (heroic tier) (5), Foe Stone (paragon tier)
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Sheska, Level 15 Human Brawler Fighter|Shock Trooper

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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Sheska, level 15
Human, Fighter, Shock Trooper
Build: Guardian Fighter
Fighter: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents: Brawler Style
Human Power Selection: Heroic Effort
Background: Former Gladiator (Former Gladiator Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 24, Con 13, Dex 16, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 12, Dex 15, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 8.


AC: 32 Fort: 34 Reflex: 27 Will: 29
HP: 112 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 29

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +13, Endurance +15, Heal +19, Athletics +21, History +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +12, Arcana +11, Bluff +8, Diplomacy +8, Dungeoneering +14, Insight +14, Nature +14, Perception +14, Religion +11, Stealth +12, Streetwise +8, Thievery +12

FEATS
Human: Master at Arms
Level 1: Improved Defenses
Level 2: Weapon Focus (Unarmed)
Level 4: Brawler Guard
Level 6: Inescapable Hold
Level 8: Focused Superiority (retrained to Striking Resurgence at Level 11)
Level 10: Brutal Brawler
Level 11: Deft Hurler Style
Level 12: Armor Specialization (Scale)
Level 14: Marked Scourge

POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Grappling Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Cleave
Power User Choice: Direct the Strike
Fighter encounter 1: Steel Serpent Strike
Fighter daily 1: Driving Attack
Fighter utility 2: Pass Forward
Fighter encounter 3: Rain of Blows
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 6: Glowering Threat
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It
Fighter daily 9: Pitiless Grapple
Fighter utility 10: Clearheaded
Fighter encounter 13: Stranglehold (replaces Steel Serpent Strike)
Fighter daily 15: Dust Storm Assault (replaces Driving Attack)

ITEMS
Power Jewel (heroic tier), Battle-Scarred Champion (heroic tier), Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Davros Elden's Hasty Resurgence (heroic tier), Ioun's Revelation (level 3), Frozen Wyvernscale Armor +3, Spiked gauntlet of Great Opportunity +2, Pileus Helm (Level 6), Rope of Slave Fighting (heroic tier), Battlestrider Greaves (paragon tier), Lightning Javelin +3, Amulet of False Life +3, Backlash Tattoo (heroic tier), Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds
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Mari, Level 15 Human Archery Ranger|Battlefield Archer

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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Mari, level 15
Human, Ranger, Battlefield Archer
Build: Archer Ranger
Fighting Style: Archer Fighting Style
Ranger: Prime Shot
Human Power Selection: Heroic Effort
Background: Fugitive from a Vengeful Rival (Fugitive from a Vengeful Rival Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 16, Dex 24, Int 13, Wis 20, Cha 14.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 15, Dex 18, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 13.


AC: 32 Fort: 28 Reflex: 31 Will: 28
HP: 98 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 24

TRAINED SKILLS
Bluff +19, Nature +19, Stealth +22, Dungeoneering +19, Acrobatics +21, Perception +21

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +10, Diplomacy +11, Endurance +12, Heal +14, History +10, Insight +14, Intimidate +11, Religion +10, Streetwise +11, Thievery +16, Athletics +8

FEATS
Human: Weapon Proficiency (Superior crossbow)
Level 1: Crossbow Expertise
Level 2: Improved Defenses
Level 4: Predatory Action
Level 6: Weapon Focus (Crossbow)
Level 8: Lethal Hunter
Level 10: Grounding Shot
Level 11: Steady Shooter
Level 12: Armor Specialization (Hide)
Level 14: Shadow of the Wild

POWERS
Power User Choice: Rapid Shot
Ranger at-will 1: Nimble Strike
Ranger at-will 1: Twin Strike
Ranger encounter 1: Two-Fanged Strike
Ranger daily 1: Sure Shot
Ranger utility 2: Invigorating Stride
Ranger encounter 3: Disruptive Strike
Ranger daily 5: Spitting-Cobra Stance
Ranger utility 6: Healing Lore
Ranger encounter 7: Biting Volley
Ranger daily 9: Attacks on the Run
Ranger utility 10: Defensive Volley
Ranger encounter 13: Pinning Strike (replaces Two-Fanged Strike)
Ranger daily 15: Confounding Arrows (replaces Sure Shot)

ITEMS
Swiftshot Superior crossbow +3, Feytouched Earthhide Armor +3, Cloak of Distortion +3, Bracers of Archery (heroic tier), Acrobat Boots (heroic tier), Gauntlets of Blood (heroic tier), Ioun's Revelation (level 3), Crimson Determination (heroic tier), Eagle Eye Goggles (heroic tier), Tattoo of Bloodied Chains (heroic tier), Elven Chain Shirt (heroic tier), Viper Belt (heroic tier), Endless Quiver, Lightning Arrow +2 (4), Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds, Stone of Wind (paragon tier)
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Sunday Character:

Bowen, Level 1 Half-Elf Euphoric Ardent

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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Bowen, level 1
Half-Elf, Ardent
Build: Euphoric Ardent
Ardent Mantle: Mantle of Elation
Half-Elf Power Selection: Knack for Success
Background: Trained from Birth for a Specific Prophecy (Trained from Birth for a Specific Prophecy Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 18, Dex 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 20.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 16, Dex 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 18.


AC: 15 Fort: 15 Reflex: 12 Will: 16
HP: 30 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 7

TRAINED SKILLS
Streetwise +10, Endurance +8, Diplomacy +12, Insight +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +1, Arcana +1, Bluff +5, Dungeoneering +2, Heal +2, History +1, Intimidate +5, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +1, Stealth +1, Thievery +1, Athletics -2

FEATS
Level 1: Valenar Weapon Training

POWERS
Ardent at-will 1: Intent Laid Bare
Ardent at-will 1: Energizing Strike
Ardent daily 1: Battleborn Acuity

ITEMS
Falchion, Hide Armor
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Gouge and Gauntlet Axe.

With a warlord in the party, I'd be tempted to go Rapier MH/Axe OH and pick up the charge kit.  Are you planning your character through level 10 or starting the campaign at 10?  Headman's Chop + easy proning in heroic is pretty powerful, but it gets less impressive paragon.  As always, paragon is about charging with a gouge.
If i charge do i not get to use my second weapon?  I was thinking you would but now you guys got me questioning it.
If i charge do i not get to use my second weapon?  I was thinking you would but now you guys got me questioning it.



Yes, you can take free actions after a charge, and Dual Weapon Attack is a free action.
For a 'rnager', surely you need somone who is good at bluff?
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein

Which part of "we have a Warlord!" makes you think "I should make myself weaker!"?



Unfortunately, I've outed myself as someone who plays 4e differently than erachima.  Luckily, correctness isn't actually linked to the level of conviction, despite the impression his posts give sometimes.  Oddly, the answer to this question lies in the portion of my post erachima somehow managed to skip--Headman's Chop is actually quite good in heroic for a Scout and it's even better when you have a Warlord who can give you out-of-turn attacks on an already proned target--hence my question about the level of the character in-play.  If he's starting at 3 and trying to figure out his trajectory, he's better off going HC and retraining at paragon.


Even on the off chance that the bonus accuracy is being wasted because you hit 95% of the time, +2 damage is not worth +1 attack after level 4.



This is so wildly wrong, it doesn't even make sense.  Unless your DM is throwing disproportiantely high-level opposition at you (and if he is, then yeah, go accuracy), the if two builds are hitting on a 2, there's no reason to increase accuracy until a 2 no longer reliably hits.  I'm a member of the +hit orthodoxy, but being overly dogmatic about it isn't a great idea.


And no, paragon is not about charging with a gouge. Paragon is about not relying on charging anymore because charge bonuses no longer keep up with extra attacks.



Once you get to higher paragon and have enough feats to invest, sure.  But it's ridiculous to assume that all campaigns will hit 30.  At level 12, a high crit, jagged Gouge that hits Reflex is very strong.
 

This is just a giant pile of bad advice.



And your caustic posts are a constant source of amusement for me, so thanks.

Haha--I assure you, there's nothing that could be said in a D&D board that I'll take even remotely personally.  You'll have to find your diagnosis success stories elsewhere.

But my original point remains--what is optimal varies significantly over the growth arc of a character.  I think everyone on these boards is in agreement that hit (and rerolls) are the gold standard of character building.  But these things don't exist in a vacuum and since resources are finite, players need to weigh decisions carefully.  At level 8, a Scout isn't going to have all that many mult-hit powers (if any).
At level 8, a Scout isn't going to have all that many mult-hit powers (if any).


Yes, the class based around an at-will ability to gain a second attack if the first attack hits doesn't have very many multi-hit...wait.

There are classes where it can make sense to look at +damage options at the expense of +hit options.  The Scout really isn't one of them.
But my original point remains--what is optimal varies significantly over the growth arc of a character.  I think everyone on these boards is in agreement that hit (and rerolls) are the gold standard of character building.  But these things don't exist in a vacuum and since resources are finite, players need to weigh decisions carefully.  At level 8, a Scout isn't going to have all that many mult-hit powers (if any).

Um, if resources are finite, than taking less powerful options is always bad. You can only take all the crap you want if resources are infinite. But since they aren't, you shouldn't take things that are bad. Now perhaps in some cases "bad" is hard to quantify, but this isn't one of them. You're a striker. Strikers do damage. Doing more damage makes you a better striker. Past early Heroic Light Blades pull ahead for Scouts and by 8 are beyond the point of axes ever catching up.

Though I have an easy way of solving this. Make an axe build you think it competitive. We'll run the damage calcs for it. Era will, I am certain, be happy to make a light blade build and run the calcs for it. We can even run the level 1 calcs, so you can see why axes start out passable and become bad. Erachima is completely correct on every point and most CharOp regulars know this math, but it'll be a fun education experience for you.
I actually ran through some damage calculations for this.  I'm convinced that axes are better for scouts at low heroic, with the right build, and that light blades are better by level 11, but I wasn't sure at which point light blades pass axes, so I crunched some numbers at level 10, on the hunch that it's the additional tick from damage bonuses that scale by tier that makes light blades better by 11.

The axe build is a revenant dwarf wielding a gouge / gauntlet axe, whereas the light blade build can be any +DEX race, wielding a rapier / short sword / iron armbands of power.  Both builds take Battle Awareness and Surprising Charge.  The axe build's other four feats are Axe Expertise, Dwarven Weapon Training, Headsman's Chop, and Two-Weapon Fighting.  The light blade build's four other feats are Light Blade Expertise, Nimble Blade, Weapon Focus, and Martial Cross-Training (Fox's Cunning).  Human light blade users would have a fifth feat to play with as well.

I made the admittedly charitable-to-axes assumption that both builds can charge into combat advantage any time they want to, and I also assumed generic +2 magic weapons with no properties.  Both builds have Dexterity 22 at level 10.

For giggles, I also calculated off-turn damage (e.g., from free attacks, immediate action attacks, etc), again assuming combat advantage, but not prone.  I did my damage calculations by hand, so I may have made some mistakes somewhere, but I got the following numbers, assuming monster AC of 24:

Axe MBA (charging and combat advantage): +19, 4d6b1 + 15
Axe off-turn MBA (combat advantage): +18, 2d6b1 + 13
Axe DWA (prone target): +18, 1d8 + 18

Axe on-turn DPR (charging and combat advantage): 39.715
Axe off-turn damage (combat advantage): 16.3

Light Blade MBA (charging and combat advantage): +22, 2d8 + 14
Light Blade off-turn MBA (combat advantage): +21, 1d8 + 12
Light Blade DWA (combat advantage): +21, 1d6 + 12

Light Blade on-turn DPR (charging and combat advantage): 36.25375
Light Blade off-turn damage (combat advantage): 15.375

Again, maybe my calculations are wrong, but it looks like axes are slightly ahead according to raw numbers: +3.4ish damage on-turn, and +1ish off-turn.  However, I'd still prefer light blades at this point, because the slight boost to damage doesn't offset the costs required for the axe build:



  • revenant dwarf required, including suboptimal secondary stat bump (CON/CHA)

  • down one feat for Dwarven Weapon Training, which at this point basically means one fewer immediate action attack (from Martial Cross-Training) per encounter

  • arms slot taken by gauntlet axe (this becomes worse when the light blade build upgrades to paragon tier iron armbands of power)



I'm too lazy to show my work for my damage calcuations, but does this seem about right?  The short version is that, with generous assumptions (charging into combat advantage), axes still come out barely ahead for raw damage per attack at level 10, but at an unacceptably high cost, including essentially one fewer attack per encounter.

EDIT: revised attack bonus numbers for light blades (the initial version was 1 lower than it should have been)

SECOND EDIT: I made two slight corrections, both of which boost axe on-turn DPR: first, I finally accounted for the axe expertise bonus (reroll a "1" on damage rolls).  This doesn't affect the gouge, which is already brutal 1, but it does affect the gauntlet axe.  Second, I adjusted the chance of DWA triggering to account for combat advantage on the MBA, meaning it has a 80% chance to trigger (the MBA has a 20% chance to miss, assuming combat advantage), not 70% as used in my initial calculation.  The end result is about +2 DPR for axes from my initial result.
It appears you might have failed to incorporate the conditionality of the secondary attack?

But more to the point, you're doing the wrong comparison. If you keep the rest of your numbers but switch to the light blade feature you'd be at +20/+19, 29/20.5 damage for MBA/DWA, yielding DPR of 38.59.

So accuracy trumps damage there, and since you're making a substantial omission by skipping the +1d8+1d6 helm and vanguard, in reality it trumps it faster. Even for Dwarves.



No, I did account for the conditionality of DWA in my calculations.  However, I forgot to upgrade weapon proficiency bonus for light blades to +3 instead of +2.  That would give light blades a +3 accuracy boost over axes (+1 for proficiency bonus, +1 for Nimble Blade, +1 for Flashing Blade).  I'll go back and edit the post accordingly when I'm done with this one.  It turns out this brings light blades even closer for damage per attack, though still slightly lower than for axes.  You're right that adding vanguard weapon and horned helm make things even worse for the axe build, probably tipping things the other way.  (Also, I'm not sure that Two-Weapon Fighting works with gouge + gauntlet axe.  That would tip the balance too.)

On the other hand, it's not so bad as the number you calculate, as you can't just switch out Spinning Axe for Flashing Blade while keeping everything else the same.  The weapons you use have to change, and this has ripple effects for feats, race, etc.
If we're taking a reading where you can use Gouge + Gauntlet Axe for it, then you actually can use Wrist Razors to satisfy the light blade feature while keeping everything else identical.


Hrm, but gouge wouldn't benefit from Light Blade Expertise (neither accuracy nor damage).  I suspect rapier + short sword + iron armbands of power are still better than any 2H weapon + wrist razors, for Flashing Blade users.  I'm happy to be shown some numbers to be proven otherwise, though.

EDIT: Even adding a vanguard weapon + horned helm isn't enough to tip the DPR balance, though it gets even closer.  If my calculations are right, axes are about 3.4 ahead for charge DPR without those two items.  Light blade has a 15% accuracy boost over axes, spread over 1d8 (vanguard) + 1d6 (horned helm) damage, for an expected damage boost of 1.2 for charging with light blades over axes (8 * 0.15).  Thus, even with a vanguard weapon and a horned helm, the axe build is still about 2.2 ahead for charge DPR.
Spiked-Chain Training - Makes it a light blade with Double Weapon and Reach. Sadly have to give up the MultiClass option.

Great Damage output for a Light blade expecialy once you pick up LBexpertiese.

I personaly like the Hungry Shark stance, being able to shift up to a bloodied enemy has givin my scout even more mobility; expecialy if you get a Master Blade and tag on Lurking Spider as well.


      

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/1.jpg)

While Gouge+Gauntlet Axe works for attacks that require two weapons, it is not being wielded in the hand (Gauntlet Axe specifically says it is not in your hand). Doesn't work for Scouts. Same reason Rhythm Blade Wrist Razors don't work. You won't get the Spinning Axe or Flashing Blade bonuses. DWA would work fine.
While Gouge+Gauntlet Axe works for attacks that require two weapons, it is not being wielded in the hand (Gauntlet Axe specifically says it is not in your hand). Doesn't work for Scouts. Same reason Rhythm Blade Wrist Razors don't work. You won't get the Spinning Axe or Flashing Blade bonuses. DWA would work fine.


Ah, then that's a shame for axe users, as without a gouge (for surprising charge) their DPR would certainly drop below light blade users by level 10.

However, what about the interpretation that the gouge is being wielded in the off-hand?  If that's rules legal, then Spinning Axe would still apply.  To be clear, on this interpretation, you still use the gauntlet axe as your offhand weapon, equipped in the arms slot, not wielded in any hand, but both your hands are wielding a gouge.
Just to note here, using two weapons is expensive, you end up needing two frost weapons (or whatever element you are going for) and two shards. I find that a doublesword rather than rapier and shortsword is much more efficient, and the feat is not a complete waste since it essentially gives you +1 AC. Spiked Chain is also fine if you want to give up your MC and gain reach.

Unless you are in a game that uses inherent bonuses with no/few magic items or in a monty haul game where you get everything you want, I would go with a double weapon.
what about the interpretation that the gouge is being wielded in the off-hand?



It's total bull.


Yeah, I agree.  But what rules element precludes it?  Basically the issue is whether, when you wield a two-handed axe, you count as wielding an axe in your off-hand.
lol come on guys, wielding a two handed axe in the off-hand.  I know the edition is sputtering out but come on !
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

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Question again. Can i use Dual Weapon attack with Pack outcast active? It says the equipment become a part of me, wouldnt that mean im still weilding them and would have a 1d8 with both my basic and my Dual Weapon attack?
I would assume yes, but definitely assume table variation.
Thanks. Ya i was going to ask the GM his thoughts about it. 
Erachima, how is the level 8 scout attacking thrice per round?  Are you assuming OA or the Warlord doing something, or is it something else entirely?
Your theme and two feats can all be sunk into more attacks per encounter, and you have an action point more or equal to half the time, and you may have a leader or get OAs. Since fights average about three rounds, and you make two attacks without using any limited resources, that works out to you making about three attacks per round.
Also: Martial Cross Training to dump a use of Power Strike and grab an encounter (likely a minor).
Also: Martial Cross Training to dump a use of Power Strike and grab an encounter (likely a minor).


Alraune already accounted for this possibility, as one of two feats you can sink for an additional attack.  And the preferred attack power for scouts is Fox's Cunning, an immediate reaction.

To be explicit, here is a list of things scouts can do to generate more attacks, all by level 8:



  • theme: Sohei

  • feat: Martial Cross-Training (Fox's Cunning)

  • feat: Battle Awareness

  • action point