All feats are created equal

If feats are the equivalent of a +1 stat bonus then all feats MUST be created equal. 

The more I think about that design paradigm the more I dissaprove.   It feels like they are trying to solve the problem, within the problem, within the problem.

The end result of this design is that a theme/speciality (or whatever they are going to call it) is far too "blockish".   Sure, this Megablock approach might be good for a simple game, but I think it's  very limiting.       

IMO, class concepts (specialites, kits, themes) should be free form in design (much like monster powers of 4e).   The designer (be that a DM or even a player) should be free to include as many features as the concept calls for.   If one character concept calls for a dozen tiny features and another concept calls for two very powerful features then they should be constructed as such.   

Why should a specialty be defined by a fix number of feats that are all equal in power level?    IMO, it's a very mechanical way to build a class concept and it certainly doesn't offer anything new.     It's structure for the sake of it, and it doesn't address the problem directly   I want a theme or kit to provide me with everything required to bring that concept to life, nothing more and nothing less.    If it takes 20 features to bring a concept to the table then it takes 20.

My only hope is that feats will have a feat point cost .    That might fix the problem, but it's still a very restrictive design, and it certainly won't even come close to offering the freedom in design that 2e Kits provided.    2e kits gave you everything you needed directly and the concept wasn't limited by any design rules.      


I've suggested...

No Feat: +1 to 2 different stats.

Lesser feat:  +1 to 1 stat, and linguist (or other small bonus)

Greater feat: +0 to any stat,  and polearm warding (or other big bonus)

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Why exactly shouldn't feats be created equal?

Mind you, I really don't like the "feat or +1 boost" as a model, I think it's a shoddy replacement for actual class features at best, but even I must admit that "a feat is roughly equal to +1 to an ability score" is more guidelines for power than feats have ever had.

Feats are a really terrible concept when it comes down to it, because they aren't designed with any clear purpose in mind besides the nebulous goal of "customization", but if you're going to have them then at least having that guideline is something.
I still want to know which feats are the equivalent of odd numbered ability points, and which ones are the even numbered ability points.

I'm just going to pick feats from the latter group. 
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
All feats should absolutely be created equal, just like all spells of each level should.
Here is reality, read and understand: Rangers aren't dull or underpowered, in any edition. Fighters aren't dull or underpowered, in any edition. Casters aren't "god mode" or overpowered, in any edition. The tarrasque isn't broken. And you aren't voicing your opinion by claiming otherwise, you're just being a pain. Now, stop complaining.
Color me flattered.

LIFE CYCLE OF A RULES THREAD

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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

I still want to know which feats are the equivalent of odd numbered ability points, and which ones are the even numbered ability points.

I'm just going to pick feats from the latter group. 

None, obviously.  But presumably you won't take just 1 stat bump, you would take 2.

Thus, 2 feats = +2 to a stat.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I've suggested...

No Feat: +1 to 2 different stats.

Lesser feat:  +1 to 1 stat, and linguist (or other small bonus)

Greater feat: +0 to any stat,  and polearm warding (or other big bonus)



I wouldn't mind using such a system and definitely prefer it to the proposed method, especially since an odd stat is currently worthless except as a stepping stone to even stat.

Another thing I've been considering is having a more robust multi-tiered proficiency system that would hopefully cover the "lesser" customization options that aren't quite worth a +1.  Still working on it, though.

Wounds Module [updated for Basic]

Proficiency Module

The problem with trying to make feats "equal" is that the value of a feat is dependant on a lot of outside factors.  Some feats are more or less valuable based on your class abilities, what feats you combine them with, what equipment you use, etc.  Then there are feats with prerequisite feats (many of which make a lot of sense) which are variable even furthere.  The value of the feat then includes the value of the prerequisite feat which is also dependent on all of those other factors.  Placing a simple value on feats is difficult to do.  Equating them to a +1 stat boost works real well as a replacement when you're not using feats as they're optional, but once feats are part of your game, their value is shifting.
Feats can not be made equal because they do different things.  What is worthless for one personis a character defining perk to another.  Feats should not be used to boost ability scores.
Well, if the design team go as far as Mike Mearls stated in L&L, then feats will not be equals. MM precisely told that feats will have a level requirement, which is an antithesis to being equal to each other.

Imo, OP is right since trying to balance all the feats with one that will give +1 to one stat is just impossible. Maybe the idea is not to balance feats around this one, but only to propose an alternative to feats that is quick & simple, and at the same time appealing to anyone at any level.
I've removed content from this thread. edition warring is a violation of the Code of Conduct

You can review the Code of Conduct here: company.wizards.com/conduct

All feats should absolutely be created equal, just like all spells of each level should.




I might agree with you if feats had level.     On the other hand feats will never be a match for the open ended design that 2e kits embraced.      


Why exactly shouldn't feats be created equal?

Mind you, I really don't like the "feat or +1 boost" as a model, I think it's a shoddy replacement for actual class features at best, but even I must admit that "a feat is roughly equal to +1 to an ability score" is more guidelines for power than feats have ever had.

Feats are a really terrible concept when it comes down to it, because they aren't designed with any clear purpose in mind besides the nebulous goal of "customization", but if you're going to have them then at least having that guideline is something.



Yeah. It's a good thing to have some guideline to answer the question "How powerful should a feat be?"

Not having guidelines ultimately will lead to bloat and power creep, much of what happened to 4E, where feats started out total garbage and then grew into something very powerful, such that burning feats on skill training was no longer viable like it once was.
It is a design trade off, flexibility vs versatility. By making all feats as equal as possible in value, they make it possible to mix and match swap them, if they give each specialty it's own power structure then your stuck with the specialties that come with the game but those specialties can wander further from the base line.

That said, I like the idea of feat points. Something like normal feats worth 2 feat points, minor ones worth 1 and more powerful ones costing 3 or more. That adds almost no real complexity to the game, but frees up a lot of design space for more or less powerful feats.

I don't think all feats need to be equal, just a lot of them do. All skills aren't equal, it's only a problem when 1 or 2 skills are way better then all the rest. All feats don't need to be equal, there just needs to be plenty of really good mostly balanced options so that all optimize character's don't have the same feat progression.

Also there is no reason that there always has to be perfect balance at all levels between +1 and a feat. It's totally fine if it fluxuates. If an optimized class with feat progression and an optimized class with stat progression can end up within 10% dpr of each other then I think that would be an acceptable margin of balance.

Also it's important to note that they don't have to necessarily balance the individual feats against a +1 stat, they can also balance the sum of feats vs the sum of stats, using certain types of restrictions (like feat chains or other prereqs) to keep the balance maintained

My mind is a deal-breaker.

Good.
This makes the very idea of arbitrarily class-locking and minimum-score-locking even more silly and pointless
Like anything in a game, there needs to be structure and rules isolation if you want to makes things modular or optional. So the trick is not to rely on one design method too heavily like placing alot of burden on feats, since you can introduce kits or themes, skills, talents (in class ability) as seperate. What is comes down to is simplicity versus complexity, and I would prefer that be determined at the table. And you will notice over time most new players will start off simple then migrate to complex and when that journey is done, they will decide the level of detail they want in a game.
feats should be power balanced  but not with equal structure

no problem with feats adding ability points

at least all feats should be useful (I mean useful!) for 1 class\race
If feats are the equivalent of a +1 stat bonus then all feats MUST be created equal. 

The more I think about that design paradigm the more I dissaprove.   It feels like they are trying to solve the problem, within the problem, within the problem.



I wouldn't worry about it.  It's a design goal that is doomed to failure.  Whether a feat is better, worse, or equal to +1 to a stat is completely subjective and each player will be determining that for himself.  It's impossible for them to get this right, so you'll see feats of varying power. 
I still want to know which feats are the equivalent of odd numbered ability points, and which ones are the even numbered ability points.

I'm just going to pick feats from the latter group. 

None, obviously.  But presumably you won't take just 1 stat bump, you would take 2.

Thus, 2 feats = +2 to a stat.



Why would you take two if your stat is has an odd number?  You'd either take one or three.
If feats are the equivalent of a +1 stat bonus then all feats MUST be created equal. 

The more I think about that design paradigm the more I dissaprove.   It feels like they are trying to solve the problem, within the problem, within the problem.



I wouldn't worry about it.  It's a design goal that is doomed to failure.  Whether a feat is better, worse, or equal to +1 to a stat is completely subjective and each player will be determining that for himself.  It's impossible for them to get this right, so you'll see feats of varying power. 



Agreed.  +1 to a stat isn't even equal to +1 to a stat, strictly speaking.  +1 to an odd number hit stat is worth a whole lot more than +1 to an even tertiary stat, so setting the baseline is going to be tricky.

Some benefits are also immeasurable because they're very dependant on the DM or the campaign to assign them a level of power.  For instance, the value of Riposte depends on the user's weapon selection and class-specific damage bonus to some extent, but it's a lot more dependant on how the player's DM responds to having his monster punished for swinging at a character and missing. 

I'm very much opposed to asking players to choose between +1 stat and feat benefits, because the universally accepted method of character building is to take the +1 until your hit stat is capped and complain about being denied the more interesting options because a blanket increase in competency is not an optional offering.
"When Friday comes, we'll all call rats fish." D&D Outsider
OP: You're complaint has nothing to do with the "+1 attribute in place of feat" rule.  Feats must be created equal even without that rule, so long as characters have the opportunity to select whatever feats they like.  You could fix it by locking feats into specialties (or having feat-tree prereqs, it's the same thing really) such that all specialties/groups of X feats are created equal even if that equality is bundled by mixing good and bad feats, or perhaps by allowing some specialties to have more feats than others (although that makes "fighters get more feats" harder to pull off)), or with a point buy system where more powerful feats cost more points.  But if you do that, then you've still got no problem even if you can spend feat slots/points to get +X to attributes.  If you'd rather be locked into feat bundles (which you can call kits, if you like) than mix and match, that's fine.  THere are plusses and minuses, it's a reasonable preference.  But that's no reason to have a problem with a nice, conrete milestone for what a single feat is worth, even if you end up buying them in lots worth three times that.  

Of course, the +1 attribute thing is a terrible milestone for what a single feat is worth, but that's another story.  It's worth literally nothing if you've got an even attribute, quite a lot if you've got an odd primary attribute, and substantially less if your primary attributes are already at 20.  That means they necessarily diminish in value as you gain in level, while the level prereqs mean that normal feats become more valuable as you level.  A character that takes only attribute bumps is therefore necessarily unbalanced against one that is free to use more complicated options.  It is theoretically impossible to avoid that result, unless that's not actually how they're doing it (like, you can get two stat bumps if neither are your primary, or better yet two stat bumps all the time so you never get stuck with odd bumps for the stuttering progress issues, and then 3/4 when 1/0 of them go to your primary stat).  
I still want to know which feats are the equivalent of odd numbered ability points, and which ones are the even numbered ability points.

I'm just going to pick feats from the latter group. 

None, obviously.  But presumably you won't take just 1 stat bump, you would take 2.

Thus, 2 feats = +2 to a stat.

Why would you take two if your stat is has an odd number?  You'd either take one or three.

Why would you have a stat at an odd number unless you where planning on bumping it?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

If feats are the equivalent of a +1 stat bonus then all feats MUST be created equal. 

The more I think about that design paradigm the more I dissaprove.   It feels like they are trying to solve the problem, within the problem, within the problem.



I wouldn't worry about it.  It's a design goal that is doomed to failure.  Whether a feat is better, worse, or equal to +1 to a stat is completely subjective and each player will be determining that for himself.  It's impossible for them to get this right, so you'll see feats of varying power. 



Agreed.  +1 to a stat isn't even equal to +1 to a stat, strictly speaking.  +1 to an odd number hit stat is worth a whole lot more than +1 to an even tertiary stat, so setting the baseline is going to be tricky.

You will never get perfect balance.  Bonus to an odd main stat will nearly always come first, but that's ok.

But the other thing to remember is that feats have diminishing returns.  If you have polearm warding, defensive ward compeats with the same reaction, and thus is less useful.


So the optimal pattern should look something like...

+1 to an odd main stat.
first best feat.
+1 to an odd secondary stat.
second best feat.
third best feat.
+1 to any other odd stat.
Foruth best feat
+1 to main stat
+1 to main stat
+1 to main stat
+1 to main stat  (20)
Fifth best feat.
+1 to secondary
+1 to secondary

Anyone taking full stat boots should be well within the same overall ability range.
Anyone taking full feat boost should know what they are doing.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I still want to know which feats are the equivalent of odd numbered ability points, and which ones are the even numbered ability points.

I'm just going to pick feats from the latter group. 

None, obviously.  But presumably you won't take just 1 stat bump, you would take 2.

Thus, 2 feats = +2 to a stat.

Why would you take two if your stat is has an odd number?  You'd either take one or three.

Why would you have a stat at an odd number unless you where planning on bumping it?



maybe your group rolled for stats.


I still want to know which feats are the equivalent of odd numbered ability points, and which ones are the even numbered ability points.

I'm just going to pick feats from the latter group. 

None, obviously.  But presumably you won't take just 1 stat bump, you would take 2.

Thus, 2 feats = +2 to a stat.

Why would you take two if your stat is has an odd number?  You'd either take one or three.

Why would you have a stat at an odd number unless you where planning on bumping it?

maybe your group rolled for stats.

Then take the stat bump.

Nothing wrong with odd-to-even statbump in a main score being better then a feat.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

OP: You're complaint has nothing to do with the "+1 attribute in place of feat" rule.  Feats must be created equal even without that rule, so long as characters have the opportunity to select whatever feats they like.  You could fix it by locking feats into specialties (or having feat-tree prereqs, it's the same thing really) such that all specialties/groups of X feats are created equal even if that equality is bundled by mixing good and bad feats, or perhaps by allowing some specialties to have more feats than others (although that makes "fighters get more feats" harder to pull off)), or with a point buy system where more powerful feats cost more points.  But if you do that, then you've still got no problem even if you can spend feat slots/points to get +X to attributes.  If you'd rather be locked into feat bundles (which you can call kits, if you like) than mix and match, that's fine.  THere are plusses and minuses, it's a reasonable preference.  But that's no reason to have a problem with a nice, conrete milestone for what a single feat is worth, even if you end up buying them in lots worth three times that.  




If feats are all same power level they won't provide enough granularity for class themes\specialties.       The "Megablocks" analogy is the best way to describe the problem.    Sure you can arrange all the colored blocks in any pattern you want,  but those shapes suck and don't actually look like anything usefull.      In other words, my fear is that class concepts will feel too mechanical in nature.       Adding more blocks to the mix for some classes won't solve the problem.

A class concept or specialty should be granted whatever powers and features it needs.   






If feats are the equivalent of a +1 stat bonus then all feats MUST be created equal. 

The more I think about that design paradigm the more I dissaprove.   It feels like they are trying to solve the problem, within the problem, within the problem.



I wouldn't worry about it.  It's a design goal that is doomed to failure.  Whether a feat is better, worse, or equal to +1 to a stat is completely subjective and each player will be determining that for himself.  It's impossible for them to get this right, so you'll see feats of varying power. 



Agreed.  +1 to a stat isn't even equal to +1 to a stat, strictly speaking.  +1 to an odd number hit stat is worth a whole lot more than +1 to an even tertiary stat, so setting the baseline is going to be tricky.



And then you get into intelligence or wisdom +1's vs. strength or dexterity +1's.  Even if they all give you the bonus for achieving an even number, not all stats are equal.  THEN you have to look at what your class is, because the inequality of those stats will shift depending on what it is that you actually need for your class.

Some benefits are also immeasurable because they're very dependant on the DM or the campaign to assign them a level of power.  For instance, the value of Riposte depends on the user's weapon selection and class-specific damage bonus to some extent, but it's a lot more dependant on how the player's DM responds to having his monster punished for swinging at a character and missing.



I agree.  In my game charisma is probably the most important stat there is.  If you're captured, unconscious or otherwise at the mercy of someone or something, charisma will often be the deciding factor for what they do.

I'm very much opposed to asking players to choose between +1 stat and feat benefits, because the universally accepted method of character building is to take the +1 until your hit stat is capped and complain about being denied the more interesting options because a blanket increase in competency is not an optional offering.



I disagree with you here.  It's not THE universally accepted method of character building.  I and others I know don't really care if we have a 16 or a 20 in most cases.  It's simply one method of character building among several.  If you (general you) choose to engage in it, you have made the choice not to have those more interesting options that you could instead be taking.
I still want to know which feats are the equivalent of odd numbered ability points, and which ones are the even numbered ability points.

I'm just going to pick feats from the latter group. 

None, obviously.  But presumably you won't take just 1 stat bump, you would take 2.

Thus, 2 feats = +2 to a stat.

Why would you take two if your stat is has an odd number?  You'd either take one or three.

Why would you have a stat at an odd number unless you where planning on bumping it?



People do roll stats you know.
I still want to know which feats are the equivalent of odd numbered ability points, and which ones are the even numbered ability points.

I'm just going to pick feats from the latter group. 

None, obviously.  But presumably you won't take just 1 stat bump, you would take 2.

Thus, 2 feats = +2 to a stat.

Why would you take two if your stat is has an odd number?  You'd either take one or three.

Why would you have a stat at an odd number unless you where planning on bumping it?

maybe your group rolled for stats.

Then take the stat bump.

Nothing wrong with odd-to-even statbump in a main score being better then a feat.



The point was that there is no reason to presume that you will take 2 stat bumps.  It depends on what system you use and whether your stat is odd or even.
The point was that there is no reason to presume that you will take 2 stat bumps.  It depends on what system you use and whether your stat is odd or even.

If your at an odd score, then take the +1 to your stat.

Nothing wrong with that being stronger then a feat.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The point was that there is no reason to presume that you will take 2 stat bumps.  It depends on what system you use and whether your stat is odd or even.

If your at an odd score, then take the +1 to your stat.



That really depends on where that odd stat is.  If I'm playing a fighter and I've rolled an odd intelligence score, I may or may not want to take that +1 depending on my character concept.  I may just leave it be and take a feat. 

Nothing wrong with that being stronger then a feat.



There is also nothing wrong with a feat being stronger than a +1.  Feats should not be shoe horned into trying to be the equivelent in power to a +1 to a stat.  Just leave +1 to a stat as a feat and let the player decide whether he wants to take it or a feat that may or may not be stronger.  It's all situational anyway.
The point was that there is no reason to presume that you will take 2 stat bumps.  It depends on what system you use and whether your stat is odd or even.

If your at an odd score, then take the +1 to your stat.

That really depends on where that odd stat is.  If I'm playing a fighter and I've rolled an odd intelligence score, I may or may not want to take that +1 depending on my character concept.  I may just leave it be and take a feat.
Nothing wrong with that being stronger then a feat.

There is also nothing wrong with a feat being stronger than a +1.  Feats should not be shoe horned into trying to be the equivelent in power to a +1 to a stat.  Just leave +1 to a stat as a feat and let the player decide whether he wants to take it or a feat that may or may not be stronger.  It's all situational anyway.

Right...  +1 to a stat is a broad target, but it's still a target.

"Reroll any 1 on a hit die", "gain +1 to Con saves" , and "add 1/2 your level to your maximum hit points" as 3 seperate feats will always be worse then taking +1 Con twice.  Thus, those feats are too weak.

"You gain +2 HP per level, +2 to Con saving throws, and +2 to any hit die you roll" will always be better then +1 Con.  That feat is too strong.


Somewhere between those 2 you'll find a balance point.  Which is where you need to aim.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.


"Reroll any 1 on a hit die", "gain +1 to Con saves" , and "add 1/2 your level to your maximum hit points" as 3 seperate feats will always be worse then taking +1 Con twice.  Thus, those feats are too weak.



You shouldn't be comparing those feats individually against taking con twice.  You need to take TWO of them and compare it to con twice. 

"You gain +2 HP per level, +2 to Con saving throws, and +2 to any hit die you roll" will always be better then +1 Con.  That feat is too strong.



Not as a single feat against a single +1 to con when your con is odd.  The con increase will only give +1, but it will give it to more than a single thing.  You'll get hit points and saving throw both, which is at least as good as a +2 to only one of those.  



"Reroll any 1 on a hit die", "gain +1 to Con saves" , and "add 1/2 your level to your maximum hit points" as 3 seperate feats will always be worse then taking +1 Con twice.  Thus, those feats are too weak.



You shouldn't be comparing those feats individually against taking con twice.  You need to take TWO of them and compare it to con twice.

Any 2 of them are worse then Con twice.
3 of them are still likely worse then Con twice.

"You gain +2 HP per level, +2 to Con saving throws, and +2 to any hit die you roll" will always be better then +1 Con.  That feat is too strong.


Not as a single feat against a single +1 to con when your con is odd.  The con increase will only give +1, but it will give it to more than a single thing.  You'll get hit points and saving throw both, which is at least as good as a +2 to only one of those. 
That wasn't an "or" feat.  It was all of the above, in 1 feat.  Clearly more powerful the +1 Con.

But we don't disagree.  We're just talking past eachother.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I still want to know which feats are the equivalent of odd numbered ability points, and which ones are the even numbered ability points.

I'm just going to pick feats from the latter group. 

None, obviously.  But presumably you won't take just 1 stat bump, you would take 2.

Thus, 2 feats = +2 to a stat.

Why would you take two if your stat is has an odd number?  You'd either take one or three.

Why would you have a stat at an odd number unless you where planning on bumping it?



The solution is to change the bonus from even numbers to every number. so to get your ability score bonus you would just subtract 10 from your score. 10 - 8 = -2. 15 - 10 = 5. It would open up bounded accuracy a bit (which is a good thing) and stop a lot of confusion...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
OP: You're complaint has nothing to do with the "+1 attribute in place of feat" rule.  Feats must be created equal even without that rule, so long as characters have the opportunity to select whatever feats they like.  You could fix it by locking feats into specialties (or having feat-tree prereqs, it's the same thing really) such that all specialties/groups of X feats are created equal even if that equality is bundled by mixing good and bad feats, or perhaps by allowing some specialties to have more feats than others (although that makes "fighters get more feats" harder to pull off)), or with a point buy system where more powerful feats cost more points.  But if you do that, then you've still got no problem even if you can spend feat slots/points to get +X to attributes.  If you'd rather be locked into feat bundles (which you can call kits, if you like) than mix and match, that's fine.  THere are plusses and minuses, it's a reasonable preference.  But that's no reason to have a problem with a nice, conrete milestone for what a single feat is worth, even if you end up buying them in lots worth three times that.  




If feats are all same power level they won't provide enough granularity for class themes\specialties.       The "Megablocks" analogy is the best way to describe the problem.    Sure you can arrange all the colored blocks in any pattern you want,  but those shapes suck and don't actually look like anything usefull.      In other words, my fear is that class concepts will feel too mechanical in nature.       Adding more blocks to the mix for some classes won't solve the problem.

A class concept or specialty should be granted whatever powers and features it needs. 




I disagree with your premise. The possibilities with mega blocks are limitless.
 
OP: You're complaint has nothing to do with the "+1 attribute in place of feat" rule.  Feats must be created equal even without that rule, so long as characters have the opportunity to select whatever feats they like.  You could fix it by locking feats into specialties (or having feat-tree prereqs, it's the same thing really) such that all specialties/groups of X feats are created equal even if that equality is bundled by mixing good and bad feats, or perhaps by allowing some specialties to have more feats than others (although that makes "fighters get more feats" harder to pull off)), or with a point buy system where more powerful feats cost more points.  But if you do that, then you've still got no problem even if you can spend feat slots/points to get +X to attributes.  If you'd rather be locked into feat bundles (which you can call kits, if you like) than mix and match, that's fine.  THere are plusses and minuses, it's a reasonable preference.  But that's no reason to have a problem with a nice, conrete milestone for what a single feat is worth, even if you end up buying them in lots worth three times that.  




If feats are all same power level they won't provide enough granularity for class themes\specialties.       The "Megablocks" analogy is the best way to describe the problem.    Sure you can arrange all the colored blocks in any pattern you want,  but those shapes suck and don't actually look like anything usefull.      In other words, my fear is that class concepts will feel too mechanical in nature.       Adding more blocks to the mix for some classes won't solve the problem.

A class concept or specialty should be granted whatever powers and features it needs. 




I disagree with your premise. The possibilities with mega blocks are limitless.
 




I can't see the pic from where I am, but I'm reffering to the huge megablocks for infants that are all the same size.  


Oh, ok. I figured you meant the knockoff Legos.

The solution is to change the bonus from even numbers to every number. so to get your ability score bonus you would just subtract 10 from your score. 10 - 8 = -2. 15 - 10 = 5. It would open up bounded accuracy a bit (which is a good thing) and stop a lot of confusion...



That would have no effect on bounded accuracy just drive accuracy way up, if attack bonuses stayed the same.

It's kind of interesting to consider removing attack bonuses from classes entirely tho, and allow the progression to represented by ability upgrades. i.e. do what lokaire is saying, but get rid of class progression for attack bonus completely, let such be represented by feat progressions. 

So a starting fighter could be STR 12 (+2 bonus) plus 2 feats, or STR 14 (+4), and then gain either +1 to an attribute or a feat at every level. This would require lower starting arrays tho. This could work with skills quite well also, no need for a sklll bonus, just add attribute - 10. Dex and AC would be harder.

Starting array (after class and racial bonuses, and since this consolidates the class progression it needs to include the attack bonus from the class) would need to be more like this: 14 12 11 11 10 9 (basically +4, +2, +1, +1, 0, -1), and if if you could gain an attribute or feat at every level up to 20. You could end up with a 20, 17, 13, 11 10 9, by 20 and still get 7 other feats.

My mind is a deal-breaker.

the nice thing is that feats are an optional module, so i dont have to worry about that and i can still play 5th with good characters so if this continues i may be shelling the first money out for a wotc product since 2000.
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