D&D 3.5 "Swift" questions

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Hello to everyone, who's willing to answer to my questions.


 First of all,  I have a problem with superpositions of definition of SWIFT action and difinition of using magical item BELT OF BATTLE (Magic Item Compendium). It's unclear to me whether the item gives opportunity to use second swift during the round it has been used or not.


Second is almost the same problem with superposition of SWIFT action and POWER "dual actions" of prestige class "thrall of Demogorgon" (Book of Vile Darkness). Whether am I allowed to use two swift actions during the same round I've used the power or not?


The third is the most complicated - what is happening when I activate the BELT OF BATTLE and power "DUAL ACTIONS" in the same round? How many actions and what type I supposed to use?
One more here to say is about spells and attacks. I'm allowed to cast just ONE quickened spell per round. Is it possible to cast extra quickened spell in round because  of using described powers and items, which grants you additional swift actions? If not I see some kind of imbalance for casters in comparisons with warriors, because caster could use standard for ONE spell only and no quickened, and warriors are allowed to do several full-round attacks for the same amount of time.


 Then the forth is not clear question also. Am I allowed to change standart or move for swift action??? From definition of SWIFT we could see that it's needed far more less time to do swift than move and standart actions. So logically we are coming to possibility of using three swift actions per round exchanged from standart and move...

p.s. sorry for possible mistakes Wink

First of all,  I have a problem with superpositions of definition of SWIFT action and difinition of using magical item BELT OF BATTLE (Magic Item Compendium). It's unclear to me whether the item gives opportunity to use second swift during the round it has been used or not.


Considering how its options are 1 charge for an extra move, 2 charges for an extra standard, or 3 charges for an extra full-round (read: move+standard), and you cannot trade actions for extra swifts, I don't see how you could possibly read it as giving an extra swift.

Pretty much nothing in 3.5 ever gives an extra swift action (unless it comes as part of a "take another turn" effect), and nothing in 3.5 lets you "trade down" to a swift (you can trade a full-round for a move+standard, or a standard for a move, but nothing can be traded into a swift).

Second is almost the same problem with superposition of SWIFT action and POWER "dual actions" of prestige class "thrall of Demogorgon" (Book of Vile Darkness). Whether am I allowed to use two swift actions during the same round I've used the power or not?


First, it's a 3e book, written before the swift action, so be careful.

Second, it says "two full rounds' worth of actions", so technically it should give you an extra swift (it's giving you a round's worth of actions, not a "full-round" action), but your DM is the person to ask about this, not the forums, because of the aforementioned edition shift. 

The third is the most complicated - what is happening when I activate the BELT OF BATTLE and power "DUAL ACTIONS" in the same round? How many actions and what type I supposed to use?


How many charges are you spending from the belt? If you're using Dual Actions, you get two swifts and two full-round (or move+standard) actions. The belt consumes one of those swifts, and gives you one extra move, standard, or full-round (or move+standard) depending on how many charges you spend. If you spend three charges, you can still take one swift and three full-round actions this turn.

One more here to say is about spells and attacks. I'm allowed to cast just ONE quickened spell per round. Is it possible to cast extra quickened spell in round because  of using described powers and items, which grants you additional swift actions? If not I see some kind of imbalance for casters in comparisons with warriors, because caster could use standard for ONE spell only and no quickened, and warriors are allowed to do several full-round attacks for the same amount of time.


I have to laugh at this - honestly, at the level where Quickening enters the picture, warriors really aren't going to be making that much of a difference swinging their sticks one or two extra times. You're also misreading this - warriors need a full-round action to attack more than once, no matter what, while a wizard could (with no real effort) throw out at least two spells per round using nothing but Quicken. Considering that any one of those spells is probably capable of ending the battle, and you'll see the point.

By the way, Quicken was changed to remove the 1/round limit - rather, the swift action limit itself does that. If you happen to have multiple swifts somehow, you can cast multiple Quickened spells. 

Then the forth is not clear question also. Am I allowed to change standart or move for swift action??? From definition of SWIFT we could see that it's needed far more less time to do swift than move and standart actions. So logically we are coming to possibility of using three swift actions per round exchanged from standart and move...


As I said above, you can trade down, but you cannot trade for extra swifts.

You can in some d20 systems (most notably Star Wars: Saga Edition, which was designed with this in mind from the get-go), but in 3.5, you can't trade down to get a swift. 

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Bleed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

I really don't ike how this whole immediate and swift action mechanic was bolted onto the system midway through 3.5. It created such an inconsistency in the 3/3.5E material.

I don't have any other advice than TS has already given.

5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."

 

I once asked the question (in D&D 3.5) "Does a Druid4/Wizard3/ArcaneHierophant1 have Wildshape?". Jesse Decker and Andy Collins: Yes and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Rich Redman and Ed Stark: No and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Skip Williams: Lol, it's worded ambiguously and entirely not how I intended it. (Cust. Serv. Reference# 050815-000323)

I have to agree with that. Why can't you trade down to swifts? It doesn't really make sense, except as a mechanical thing (i.e. limiting the powers of swift actions).

One problem is that "full round action" sounds very similar to "full round of actions". A full round action was supposed to take your whole round, but it doesn't, it only takes move+standard, now swift.

Some remarks:
 - The Epic Level Handbook (of course) has a feat which lets you cast two Quickens. That was 3.0 too, though; by a 3.5 interpretation it should give you an extra swift, at least to use on spells. 
 - A L7 Ruby Knight Vindicator (ToB) can get extra swifts for Turn/Rebuke charges. I tend to confuse it with their L2 ability and keep thinking I can make cool, many-swift-action characters by dipping it, but I can't. Still, it's one of the one ways I can think of of doing that.
Oddly, I can see why you can't trade down to swifts. There's a game design reason for allowing the shift (consistency), but there's also a game design reason to not - resource management. Which one works depends on how you design your swift actions.

In the case of the former, you'd need to design swift actions so they don't necessarily compete with each other. Look through Star Wars: Saga Edition for a great example of this - actions designated as swift almost never were designed to be used in isolation. Rather, they usually augmented a standard action, were designed to be taken in clusters, or had short-duration effects that didn't work if you just spammed swift-action effects. (Examples include the Aim action, which took two swift actions to do and caused your next ranged attack to ignore cover, provided you didn't do anything between aiming and shooting (also worth noting: Shooting didn't provoke an AoO, but aiming did), the Recover action, which removed condition penalties but took three swift actions to do (these could be split up over up to three rounds if you wanted), and so on). If an action did have a disproportional impact on the game, it often had another limit attached to it - typically once per encounter, or at the cost of a Force point (action point).

(Noteworthy, Saga also allowed reactions (immediate actions, more or less), but these did NOT count against your swift. Rather, you could react once to anything that triggered a reaction, with no limit on how many reactions per round you could make (unless the actions involved prevented it). An example is the Jedi's Deflect talent, which allowed you to intercept blaster bolts with your lightsaber as a reaction. You could try this once for each time you were attacked - but each time you tried, you suffered an extra -5 on your deflection attempt. Similarly, the Negate Energy Force power allowed you to flat-out negate (or absorb) blaster bolts as a reaction, but after you used it, the power was expended and unable to be used again (similar to a Tome of Battle maneuver, except the recovery conditions are a bit less aggressive)).

3.5 didn't design their swifts this way. Rather, they designed them to strongly compete with each other, in the same way standard actions compete with each other. Managing your swift action becomes a pretty solid part of character design this way, as if you design a character with a few zillion class features that all take a swift or immediate action, you'll find yourself wrestling with which ability to actually select for your limited number of actions. Fundamentally, games like this are exercises in managing limited resources, so this is not a bad thing

The problem emerges if you take one system for using swifts and take the actual swift-action abilities from the other and bolt them together. If you could trade down to three swifts per round, D&D characters (particularly spellcasters and martial adepts) would be overflowing with lots-of-actions to do every round, since those swifts are much more significant. If you took Saga-style swift-actions and removed the ability to trade down, the game would be much less dynamic, as each individual swift is less game-changing and designed to be used faster.

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Bleed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

"your DM is the person to ask about this, not the forums, because of the aforementioned edition shift"

 The point is I am DM. And I just want to make sure that I'm fit into the rules before throwing NPC with three fullround actions to the party. The Wizards sometimes so wizards playing with words and uncleary definitions and an edition shift is certainly not helping =)
The last ridiculous thing 
that I've known could be possible is about usage of two weapon fighting feat with monk's flurry of blows at the same round, so just checking...


Anyway, thanks for sharing your point of view

A Belt of Battle does not grant you an additional Swift Action. It requires you to use your Swift Action in order to get a Move, Standard, or Full Round Action depending on how many charges you burn.

The Thrall of Demogorgon ability gives you two full sets of actions in a single round, including Swift Actions. If you use one of these to get another Full Round Action through the Belt of Battle then you have one Swift action left, a Full  Round Action, and some combination of two rounds worth of Move/Standard action combinations.

The Quickened Spell question is the only one presented that has a questionable resolution. Casting a Quickened spell is not a Swift Action; it is a Free Action with a stipulation that your can cast only one such spell per round. I would rule that a quickened spell is part of a full rounds' worth of actions so, in a round that you use Dual actions, you could cast two Quickened spells that round in addition to the actions listed above.

That said, if you're thinking of bringing this character in as an NPC, I would advise against it. You don't want an NPC taking up so much time in a combat round. If this guy will be fighting against your PCs, it's all good, I'd actually be eager to see their faces when he just keeps going and going and going, like the Energizer Bunny.

Also, make sure you're aware of spell casting times when using this guy. You don't want to have him start casting a spell with a Casting time of 1 Round unless you're starting it as your last Full Round Action of the round, otherwise all the other actions you activated will be wasted since a 1 Round casting time spell isn't completed until just before your next turn comes up. 

"your DM is the person to ask about this, not the forums, because of the aforementioned edition shift"

 The point is I am DM.



Apologies; we usually get players here asking questions like that. Replace it with "you'll have to make a call", though - the best we can do is advise.
And I just want to make sure that I'm fit into the rules before throwing NPC with three fullround actions to the party. The Wizards sometimes so wizards playing with words and uncleary definitions and an edition shift is certainly not helping =)


Three full-round actions (and one remaining swift) once per day. The belt's quite strict on how it's used (not saying it's a bad thing; it's probably one of the best "stock" items ever printed).
The last ridiculous thing that I've known could be possible is about usage of two weapon fighting feat with monk's flurry of blows at the same round, so just checking...

You'll still get some fighting on this one, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work provided you're TWFing with monk weapons (simplest, I suppose, with a quarterstaff). You'd suffer the penalties for both, and the attacks from the TWF feats would be normal off-hand attacks (something a standard flurry attack isn't), but it's possible. Of course, monks suck hard enough already without having to choke down penalties that big, so this is going to be an even bigger flurry of misses than they usually wind up with.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Bleed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.


 You'll still get some fighting on this one, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work provided you're TWFing with monk weapons (simplest, I suppose, with a quarterstaff). You'd suffer the penalties for both, and the attacks from the TWF feats would be normal off-hand attacks (something a standard flurry attack isn't), but it's possible. Of course, monks suck hard enough already without having to choke down penalties that big, so this is going to be an even bigger flurry of misses than they usually wind up with.




Right, if monk uses his weapon it could be possible, strange but possible. And when he using his fist - that what makes me a little bit confused of how it could have been done. 'Cause in the description of his unarmed strike there is a rather clear state "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed."
On the other hand in FAQ Wizards tell us 
"The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists."

In case of TWFing with fists or light weapons however it's make sense to take 11 lvls of monk (decreasing penalty for furry to 0 an taking Greater flurry) an still have -2 for fighting with light weapons. Than it's possible to take some classes with full BAB progression, rising number of attacks, probably add tempest or swash and his chances to hit with flurry & TWF will certainly improve... but I guess that is the subject of another topic.
Swift actions - yeah, it's a balance thing. Allowing trading down to swifts in D&D as it is... well, largely you'd get standard + swift + swift; Full-attack + swift would stay the same. Still, it would screw things up a bit, the ways swifts are designed. It just doesn't make a lot of (fluff) sense IMO.

Flurry + TWF - it does look like the intention is for Flurry to replace TWF, especially if you consider that many "monk" weapons (sai, tonfa, tambo, etc) are often traditionally wielded in pairs. However the way it's written, the only issue is with unarmed strikes, for which the monk has no off-hand; you could still attack with two nunchakus (shouldn't nunchaku be two-handed...?) with TWF and Flurry.
You get a -4 penalty, though, which is a lot. It still might be statistically worth it depending on your odds of hitting - two hits and a miss is no worse than two hits, after all - plus your off-hand uses your full Str bonus.

RE L11 Monk... you suffer no flurry penalty, but you lose 3 points of BAB. It's just the same to take the -2 from Flurry and go into a full BAB class (-2 Flurry, -1 Monk = -3). A better option would be Shou Disciple, depending on how your DM ruled it to work (if Shou stacks with Monk for Flurry penalties, say).
(shouldn't nunchaku be two-handed...?)



Nope.  They're one or two handed and are typically used either way - singly or in pairs. 



Yeah, that's a movie - I know.  I also trained some with a martial arts master who specialized in the weapon oriented styles.  We learned some bo, tonfa, sword and nunchaku - which we learned to use both as a single weapon and as a pair.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

As a single weapon, I believe you often switch hands with it, though (I recently watched a kata which IIRC did just that). I would count that as being "two-handed", though not in the D&D "add +1/2 Str damage to your attacks" sense admittedly. And I guess if it doesn't have to be two-handed, then as far as the rules are concerned, it shouldn't be (and actually, is there anything which says you can't two-hand a light weapon?)
Yeah, when used one handed it does typically require using both hands.  Doesn't have to but it certainly works better that way.  Good point.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

As a single weapon, I believe you often switch hands with it, though (I recently watched a kata which IIRC did just that). I would count that as being "two-handed", though not in the D&D "add +1/2 Str damage to your attacks" sense admittedly. And I guess if it doesn't have to be two-handed, then as far as the rules are concerned, it shouldn't be (and actually, is there anything which says you can't two-hand a light weapon?)

You can wield a light weapon with two hands, there just isn't any particular benefit for doing so.

Switching a weapon between hands doesn't really have any meaningful effect under 3.5 rules, and as far as I know, you don't make any actual attacks with nunchaku while holding them in two hands, which is why they're considered to be light weapons.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
You actually can make attacks with them while they're held in both hands.  These typically are sort of stabbing motions and, in reality, have limited use.  So, uhh, forget it. 
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

Check the clips on YouTube of Bruce Lee playing ping pong and lighting a match with a single nunchaku. He's only using one, but he doesn't switch hands very often.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Check the clips on YouTube of Bruce Lee playing ping pong and lighting a match with a single nunchaku. He's only using one, but he doesn't switch hands very often.

Well, it's fake as far as Bruce Lee genuinely playing ping pong with a nunchaku goes, but it still shows some basic nunchaku handling.

Thinking about the two-handed use, I guess the two-handed version of a nunchaku would be a three-section staff.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.