paladin mount issues

all the paladin mounts listed in the playtest packet are large creatures, and therefore cannot be ridden by either halflings or dwarves.


also, completly unrelated question (no more horse of holding), where do i find out how much a character can carry?

"Trying to run gritty gothic horror with 4e is like trying to cut down a tree with a hammer, likewise trying to run heroic fantasy with 1e is like trying to hammer a nail with a chainsaw."

 
 

 This is what i get when i hit the Quote button:  http://community.wizards.com/%23

 

  

also, completly unrelated question (no more horse of holding), where do i find out how much a character can carry?



Page 4 of the How to Play Document covers carrying capacity.
also, completly unrelated question (no more horse of holding), where do i find out how much a character can carry?



Page 4 of the How to Play Document covers carrying capacity.

ok thanks, i was looking for a table because i wasn't expecting a linear relationship between strength and weight capacity.  There also seems to be no mention of how much lighter equipment is for a small character compared to a medium character.

"Trying to run gritty gothic horror with 4e is like trying to cut down a tree with a hammer, likewise trying to run heroic fantasy with 1e is like trying to hammer a nail with a chainsaw."

 
 

 This is what i get when i hit the Quote button:  http://community.wizards.com/%23

 

  

all the paladin mounts listed in the playtest packet are large creatures, and therefore cannot be ridden by either halflings or dwarves.

Why do you say this? I can't find anything that specifies size limitations for mounts.

all the paladin mounts listed in the playtest packet are large creatures, and therefore cannot be ridden by either halflings or dwarves.

Why do you say this? I can't find anything that specifies size limitations for mounts.


page 34 - 35 of classes.pdf describes the paladin mounts, all of which are large beasts.
page 7 of races.pdf describes halflings as small creatures.


anyway,  halflings are typically between 3 and 4 feet tall, dwarves tend to be closer to 4 to 4'6" and never more than 4'10", the average full grown horse is upwards of 5 feet, usually closer to 5'4", and even up to 5'8", and saddle stirrups are limited by the length of the user's legs.  So, short of installing a ladder on the mount (which would inevitably catch  on something), there's no way a dwarf or halfling will be able to ride the thing, which is why previous editions had special mounts (usually ponies of some sort, plus the occasional dog of war) for dwarves, halflings, etc. 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse#Size_and_mea...img14.imageshack.us/img14/5207/heroichei...


"Trying to run gritty gothic horror with 4e is like trying to cut down a tree with a hammer, likewise trying to run heroic fantasy with 1e is like trying to hammer a nail with a chainsaw."

 
 

 This is what i get when i hit the Quote button:  http://community.wizards.com/%23

 

  

 page 34 - 35 of classes.pdf describes the paladin mounts, all of which are large beasts.
page 7 of races.pdf describes halflings as small creatures.


anyway,  halflings are typically between 3 and 4 feet tall, dwarves tend to be closer to 4 to 4'6" and never more than 4'10", the average full grown horse is upwards of 5 feet, usually closer to 5'4", and even up to 5'8", and saddle stirrups are limited by the length of the user's legs.  So, short of installing a ladder on the mount (which would inevitably catch  on something), there's no way a dwarf or halfling will be able to ride the thing, which is why previous editions had special mounts (usually ponies of some sort, plus the occasional dog of war) for dwarves, halflings, etc. 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse#Size_and_mea...img14.imageshack.us/img14/5207/heroichei...




"Short of installing a ladder"? I bet I can come up with a few more ways.
Climb, jump, get lifted onto the horse by a friend, train the horse to kneel.
According to the how to play pdf, a 3 1/2 foot tall halfling (42 inches) can jump 73 inches (1 foot minimum jump plus a reach of height x 1.5) which is a little over 6 feet. Even a 3 foot halfling can reach a height of 5.5 feet. So, needless to say, I think they can get on a horse. And all of that is without walking 10 feet first, AND without rolling a jump check! That's just how high the average shlub can jump with no roll!

all the paladin mounts listed in the playtest packet are large creatures, and therefore cannot be ridden by either halflings or dwarves.

Why do you say this? I can't find anything that specifies size limitations for mounts.


page 34 - 35 of classes.pdf describes the paladin mounts, all of which are large beasts.
page 7 of races.pdf describes halflings as small creatures.

anyway,  halflings are typically between 3 and 4 feet tall, dwarves tend to be closer to 4 to 4'6" and never more than 4'10", the average full grown horse is upwards of 5 feet, usually closer to 5'4", and even up to 5'8", and saddle stirrups are limited by the length of the user's legs.  So, short of installing a ladder on the mount (which would inevitably catch  on something), there's no way a dwarf or halfling will be able to ride the thing, which is why previous editions had special mounts (usually ponies of some sort, plus the occasional dog of war) for dwarves, halflings, etc. 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse#Size_and_mea...img14.imageshack.us/img14/5207/heroichei...


You're remembering a rule from another edition where characters couldn't ride oversize creatures. That rule doesn't exist in Next. Given how short real world jockeys are, the omission is probably more realistic.
 page 34 - 35 of classes.pdf describes the paladin mounts, all of which are large beasts.
page 7 of races.pdf describes halflings as small creatures.


anyway,  halflings are typically between 3 and 4 feet tall, dwarves tend to be closer to 4 to 4'6" and never more than 4'10", the average full grown horse is upwards of 5 feet, usually closer to 5'4", and even up to 5'8", and saddle stirrups are limited by the length of the user's legs.  So, short of installing a ladder on the mount (which would inevitably catch  on something), there's no way a dwarf or halfling will be able to ride the thing, which is why previous editions had special mounts (usually ponies of some sort, plus the occasional dog of war) for dwarves, halflings, etc. 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse#Size_and_mea...img14.imageshack.us/img14/5207/heroichei...




"Short of installing a ladder"? I bet I can come up with a few more ways.
Climb, jump, get lifted onto the horse by a friend, train the horse to kneel.
According to the how to play pdf, a 3 1/2 foot tall halfling (42 inches) can jump 73 inches (1 foot minimum jump plus a reach of height x 1.5) which is a little over 6 feet. Even a 3 foot halfling can reach a height of 5.5 feet. So, needless to say, I think they can get on a horse. And all of that is without walking 10 feet first, AND without rolling a jump check! That's just how high the average shlub can jump with no roll!


that is not how you get on a horse.

"Trying to run gritty gothic horror with 4e is like trying to cut down a tree with a hammer, likewise trying to run heroic fantasy with 1e is like trying to hammer a nail with a chainsaw."

 
 

 This is what i get when i hit the Quote button:  http://community.wizards.com/%23

 

  

all the paladin mounts listed in the playtest packet are large creatures, and therefore cannot be ridden by either halflings or dwarves.

Why do you say this? I can't find anything that specifies size limitations for mounts.


page 34 - 35 of classes.pdf describes the paladin mounts, all of which are large beasts.
page 7 of races.pdf describes halflings as small creatures.

anyway,  halflings are typically between 3 and 4 feet tall, dwarves tend to be closer to 4 to 4'6" and never more than 4'10", the average full grown horse is upwards of 5 feet, usually closer to 5'4", and even up to 5'8", and saddle stirrups are limited by the length of the user's legs.  So, short of installing a ladder on the mount (which would inevitably catch  on something), there's no way a dwarf or halfling will be able to ride the thing, which is why previous editions had special mounts (usually ponies of some sort, plus the occasional dog of war) for dwarves, halflings, etc. 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse#Size_and_mea...img14.imageshack.us/img14/5207/heroichei...


You're remembering a rule from another edition where characters couldn't ride oversize creatures. That rule doesn't exist in Next. Given how short real world jockeys are, the omission is probably more realistic.

jockeys are taller than dwarves.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jockey

"Trying to run gritty gothic horror with 4e is like trying to cut down a tree with a hammer, likewise trying to run heroic fantasy with 1e is like trying to hammer a nail with a chainsaw."

 
 

 This is what i get when i hit the Quote button:  http://community.wizards.com/%23

 

  

Eh, what I don't like about it is how limiting it is. I liked being able to choose all kinds of beasts for a mount, including Unicorns, Pegasi, and Dire Lions! I want my Dire Lion mount back, damn it!
Eh, what I don't like about it is how limiting it is. I liked being able to choose all kinds of beasts for a mount, including Unicorns, Pegasi, and Dire Lions! I want my Dire Lion mount back, damn it!

I'm sure there will be more options for mounts, but being able to just choose a normal monster as a mount would be problematic. You'll just have to wait for the full version, when there will likely be more options. Until then, it's not a difficult thing to mock up:

Unicorn Mount
(Use the stats for the Summer Stag mount.) 

Golden Lion Mount
Large Beast
Armor Class 16

Hit Points 60 (8d10 + 16); resistant to damage from non-­‐magical weapons
Speed 50 ft.
Str 15 (+2), Dex 14 (+2), Con 14 (+2), Int 10 (+0), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 12 (+1)
Alignment; neutral good

Traits
Magic Resistance: The Golden Lion has advantage on saving throws against magical effects.

Actions
Pounce: The Golden Lion moves up to its speed, then makes two claw attacks. If both attacks hit, it can make a bite attack as a free action.

Melee Attack; Claw: +4 to hit (reach 5 ft.; one creature).
Hit: 7 (2d4 + 2) slashing damage.

Melee Attack; Bite: +4 to hit (reach 5 ft.; one creature).
Hit: 7 (2d4 + 2) piercing damage.

Celestial Roar: The Golden Lion lets out a roar that can be heard clearly up to one mile away. Any sleeping allies within 60ft of the Golden Lion when it roars awaken immediately and become fully alert and aware of any danger of which the Golden Lion is aware.

Not bad, I like your Dire Lion mount. I'm partial to Tormish Paladins in the Forgotten Realms, so Dire Lion mounts are a great characterful mount option, IMO. That and it's easier to bring one into a dungeon than a Celestial Charger or whatever. I don't care for a class feature which is only useful in certain situations.
Not bad, I like your Dire Lion mount. I'm partial to Tormish Paladins in the Forgotten Realms, so Dire Lion mounts are a great characterful mount option, IMO. That and it's easier to bring one into a dungeon than a Celestial Charger or whatever. I don't care for a class feature which is only useful in certain situations.

ability to use a mount in a dungeon is an advantage of being a small character.

"Trying to run gritty gothic horror with 4e is like trying to cut down a tree with a hammer, likewise trying to run heroic fantasy with 1e is like trying to hammer a nail with a chainsaw."

 
 

 This is what i get when i hit the Quote button:  http://community.wizards.com/%23

 

  

 that is not how you get on a horse.



You don't climb? And when you climb (because you do), you don't give yourself a little hop to help swing one leg over? That's how I mount a horse. 

 that is not how you get on a horse.



You don't climb? And when you climb (because you do), you don't give yourself a little hop to help swing one leg over? That's how I mount a horse. 


climb =/= jump and try to land in just the right way to get on the horse.
EDIT:  if you want to climb on a horse you need to be able get a foot in the stirrup.  Oh, and "stand on your head" is not an appropriate way of getting your foot in the stirrup.

"Trying to run gritty gothic horror with 4e is like trying to cut down a tree with a hammer, likewise trying to run heroic fantasy with 1e is like trying to hammer a nail with a chainsaw."

 
 

 This is what i get when i hit the Quote button:  http://community.wizards.com/%23

 

  

climb =/= jump and try to land in just the right way to get on the horse.
EDIT:  if you want to climb on a horse you need to be able get a foot in the stirrup.  Oh, and "stand on your head" is not an appropriate way of getting your foot in the stirrup.

And, of course, there is absolutely no way to train or ask your mount to kneel down for half a second so you can mount up. Because everybody knows horses can't bend their knees.
climb =/= jump and try to land in just the right way to get on the horse.
EDIT:  if you want to climb on a horse you need to be able get a foot in the stirrup.  Oh, and "stand on your head" is not an appropriate way of getting your foot in the stirrup.

And, of course, there is absolutely no way to train or ask your mount to kneel down for half a second so you can mount up. Because everybody knows horses can't bend their knees.

that would not be consistent with the iconic image of a man mounting a horse.  Also it just plain seems wrong that a small paladin can't get an appropriate sized mount.

"Trying to run gritty gothic horror with 4e is like trying to cut down a tree with a hammer, likewise trying to run heroic fantasy with 1e is like trying to hammer a nail with a chainsaw."

 
 

 This is what i get when i hit the Quote button:  http://community.wizards.com/%23

 

  

climb =/= jump and try to land in just the right way to get on the horse.
EDIT:  if you want to climb on a horse you need to be able get a foot in the stirrup.  Oh, and "stand on your head" is not an appropriate way of getting your foot in the stirrup.

And, of course, there is absolutely no way to train or ask your mount to kneel down for half a second so you can mount up. Because everybody knows horses can't bend their knees.

that would not be consistent with the iconic image of a man mounting a horse.  Also it just plain seems wrong that a small paladin can't get an appropriate sized mount.


Kneeling horses are common throughout history. Mainly for royalty, but certainly not limited to.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

climb =/= jump and try to land in just the right way to get on the horse.
EDIT:  if you want to climb on a horse you need to be able get a foot in the stirrup.  Oh, and "stand on your head" is not an appropriate way of getting your foot in the stirrup.

And, of course, there is absolutely no way to train or ask your mount to kneel down for half a second so you can mount up. Because everybody knows horses can't bend their knees.

that would not be consistent with the iconic image of a man mounting a horse.  Also it just plain seems wrong that a small paladin can't get an appropriate sized mount.


Kneeling horses are common throughout history. Mainly for royalty, but certainly not limited to.

i'm not arguing it didn't happen, only that it doesn't look very heroic.  Also that riding a full-sized horse would likely be difficult and would certainly be dangerous for someone under 4'10" (keep in mind jockeys are usually between 5" and 5'6", and have some of the highest insurance insurance premiums of any athelete).

"Trying to run gritty gothic horror with 4e is like trying to cut down a tree with a hammer, likewise trying to run heroic fantasy with 1e is like trying to hammer a nail with a chainsaw."

 
 

 This is what i get when i hit the Quote button:  http://community.wizards.com/%23

 

  

 i'm not arguing it didn't happen, only that it doesn't look very heroic.

So? That doesn't mean it's not possible. Who cares if it looks heroic or not?
 i'm not arguing it didn't happen, only that it doesn't look very heroic.

So? That doesn't mean it's not possible. Who cares if it looks heroic or not?

 
1)  never said it wasn't possible, only that it would be inappropriate from a thematic standpoint.  While some people are okay with having their characters look ridiculous (which can certainly be entertaining), other people like to create  more serious characters who aren't forced to emasculate themselves just to get on their mount.
2)  Medium sized PCs can get on their mounts with no problems(usually).
3)  having the mount bend down would likely either waste movement and/or provoke AoOs.
4)  next doesn't have size modifiers yet, so giving appropriate sized mounts to small/dwarf paladins is simply a matter of changing a single word.

"Trying to run gritty gothic horror with 4e is like trying to cut down a tree with a hammer, likewise trying to run heroic fantasy with 1e is like trying to hammer a nail with a chainsaw."

 
 

 This is what i get when i hit the Quote button:  http://community.wizards.com/%23

 

  

1)  never said it wasn't possible, only that it would be inappropriate from a thematic standpoint.  While some people are okay with having their characters look ridiculous (which can certainly be entertaining), other people like to create  more serious characters who aren't forced to emasculate themselves just to get on their mount.

For one, this entire discussion has been about whether or not it's possible for small characters to ride large mounts, not about whether or not that looks heroic enough. Second, small characters have trouble looking heroic on the best of days. Finally, vaulting into the saddle looks plenty heroic, and is a bit staple in the fantasy setting. If having your horse kneel is that big a deal (kings do it, d'you think kings are "emasculated" because of this?

2)  Medium sized PCs can get on their mounts with no problems(usually).

Unless it's a warhorse. Have you seen something like a clydesdale? A human would have to leap into the saddle or use a stepladder or something for a true warhorse, just like a halfling would for a normal sized horse.

3)  having the mount bend down would likely either waste movement and/or provoke AoOs.

Yeah, in a super-realistic game, if you're obsessed with minute details, maybe. Most of us normal people will just have it work mechanically like any other free action.

4)  next doesn't have size modifiers yet, so giving appropriate sized mounts to small/dwarf paladins is simply a matter of changing a single word.

This is perfectly true, and I have nothing against medium sized mounts (though that would make small Paladins more powerful in dungeons, I don't think it's that big a deal[/i]. However, this discussion hasn't been about whether or not we should ever have medium mounts, but about some fool deciding that a halfling isn't able to ride a large mount at all.

(Normally I would realize that I'm getting annoyed and starting to sound like a jerk and go back and soften things up, but my ride is honking at me and I'm late as it is. So I'll just have to apologize for being more harsh than I usually would. Nothing personal, sorry.)
Heh, if the size of the mounts and riders are the only thing people think is wrong with the mounts, then people haven't really thought about it.

1) They don't scale with level.
2) The action economy is completely unaddressed.
3) No rules for barding (stag gets scale but the other two get plate, why?) or other mount items.
4) No rules for anyone else's mounts.
5) No rules for how mounts affect overland movement.

And so on...
Maybe they could hang a basket underneath the horse, and ride down there?

Just an idea. 
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
Maybe they could hang a basket underneath the horse, and ride down there?

Just an idea. 


Hahah! I dread to imagine how combat would look for such a thing...oops. Too late! Sealed

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)