PEACH 9th lvl generalist Leader

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Paramaters: I get no magic items to start, but do get inherenet bonuses. My part consists of 2 strikers, a controller, and a ? 

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Rollo, level 9
Deva, Artificer/Shaman
Hybrid Artificer Option: Hybrid Artificer Fortitude
Companion Spirit (Hybrid) Option: Elemental Spirit (Hybrid)
Hybrid Shaman Option: Hybrid Shaman Fortitude
Inherent Bonuses
Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)
Theme: Halaster's Clone
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 12, CON 12, DEX 8, INT 20, WIS 20, CHA 10
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 12, CON 12, DEX 8, INT 16, WIS 16, CHA 10
 
 
AC: 23 Fort: 19 Ref: 21 Will: 21
HP: 72 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 18
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +14, Heal +14, Insight +14, Perception +14
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +3, Athletics +5, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +9, Endurance +5, History +11, Intimidate +4, Nature +9, Religion +11, Stealth +3, Streetwise +4, Thievery +3
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Halaster's Clone Utility: Alter Time
Deva Racial Power: Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes
Artificer Feature: Healing Infusion: Curative Admixture
Artificer Feature: Healing Infusion: Resistive Formula
Shaman Feature: Call Spirit Companion
Shaman Feature: Healing Spirit
Shaman Feature: Speak with Spirits
Shaman Attack 1: Spirit Infusion
Artificer Attack 1: Magic Weapon
Artificer Attack 1: Spike Wire
Artificer Attack 1: Punishing Eye
Shaman Utility 2: Spirit's Sacrifice
Shaman Attack 3: Sly Fox Spirit
Shaman Attack 5: Vengeful Blood Spirits
Artificer Utility 6: Energy Conversion
Artificer Attack 7: Arc Infusion
Shaman Attack 9: Ancient Warlord's Inspiration
 
FEATS
Level 1: Resourceful Leader
Level 2: Battle Intuition
Level 4: Spirit of Vigor
Level 6: Staff Expertise
Level 8: Superior Implement Training (Accurate staff)
 
ITEMS
Accurate staff x1
Leather Armor x1
Adventurer's Kit
Belt Pouch (empty)
====== End ======

Ok, after several changes, I am looking for some tweaks... he's no longer a generalist, but is getting ready to be a vairant of flameswitch (taking flame of hope PP, but trying to be more item independent)... I'll feat out for Reorient the Axis next level... I don't think this is different enough from the other switch builds to warrant a new post, but any thoughts on how to improve and look forward will be helpful...
It depends on the strikers. If both aren't melee the a Battle Cleric is a good choice, if none are melee then it isn't, etc. Without knowing, I like Battle Clerics because you don't have to count on someone else having a good basic atttack, etc.  but that doesn't add to what the party does better. Your home campaign ends up more like a LFR table.
yeah, given the lack of knowledge it might be best to just throw enabling out the window, but that is so hard for me bc enabling, IMHO, is the best way to op a leader... I have never played at a LFR table, so how one responds when building a leader at a LFR table would be helpful...

I will think about a battle cleric... given that I don't know if i'll have a defender, it might be good to create something a little sturdier... any recs for this build, Gunthar? 
The Battle Cleric (or build WIS/CON) can be pretty durable with BCL. You could also hybrid with a Fighter, Swordmage or Barbarian. A STR/CHR Barbarian|Cleric w/ Hybrid Talent for Thaneborn can be pretty leadery with some de-buffs. I like Cindersoul Genasi for the Fire Resist, Encounter Power and INT boost, Elemental Initiate theme and with a multiclass you can even be an okay skill character without a total waste of a Reflex. Take Healing Strike at Level 1 , then swap it out for Mighty Hew when you get an encounter healing utility. If straight Battle Cleric take the feat that heals you your Strength Mod when you use healing word.
If you've got 2 strikers, chances are that at least one of them will be worth enabling, so i wouldn't be so quick to throw that out.

"Generalist" is going to catch some flak here, and it's really not a necessary approach in this case anyway. Buffing and enabling go hand-in-hand, and the idea is that if you specialize there you won't need extra healing because everything will be dead. You only have a couple things invested in healing at this point, so it's probably fine.

In my own anecdotal experience in mid-op games, a decent leader doesn't really need much more healing than what it gets by default. There might be an exception for some nice utility powers, but that's typically more about surge economy which may or may not be important in your campaign.
The Battle Cleric (or build WIS/CON) can be pretty durable with BCL. You could also hybrid with a Fighter, Swordmage or Barbarian. A STR/CHR Barbarian|Cleric w/ Hybrid Talent for Thaneborn can be pretty leadery with some de-buffs. I like Cindersoul Genasi for the Fire Resist, Encounter Power and INT boost, Elemental Initiate theme and with a multiclass you can even be an okay skill character without a total waste of a Reflex. Take Healing Strike at Level 1 , then swap it out for Mighty Hew when you get an encounter healing utility. If straight Battle Cleric take the feat that heals you your Strength Mod when you use healing word.



oh, i like the str/cha barb|cleric...I'd prob want to pick up some utility, encounter heals, bu I will search no further for an alternate build. so from here on, advice on this build? 

What about going elemental initiate, MCing rogue and picking up Daring slinger for greater range and versatility? or what about using Ki Focus plus any combo rather than using dagger for my imp/weapon? 
If you've got 2 strikers, chances are that at least one of them will be worth enabling, so i wouldn't be so quick to throw that out.

"Generalist" is going to catch some flak here, and it's really not a necessary approach in this case anyway. Buffing and enabling go hand-in-hand, and the idea is that if you specialize there you won't need extra healing because everything will be dead. You only have a couple things invested in healing at this point, so it's probably fine.

In my own anecdotal experience in mid-op games, a decent leader doesn't really need much more healing than what it gets by default. There might be an exception for some nice utility powers, but that's typically more about surge economy which may or may not be important in your campaign.



prob true... so any advice on how to better enable/buff? (i always thought about enabling as handing out attacks and buffing as improving attacks, but I am still finding my legs on these boards)
Just want to let you know that your party is disbalanced and will face many challenges. Parties of four don't need a controller and the lack of defenders will definitively be felt.
Yeah controllers suck, they aren't worth it in almost any party.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
The Battle Cleric (or build WIS/CON) can be pretty durable with BCL. You could also hybrid with a Fighter, Swordmage or Barbarian. A STR/CHR Barbarian|Cleric w/ Hybrid Talent for Thaneborn can be pretty leadery with some de-buffs. I like Cindersoul Genasi for the Fire Resist, Encounter Power and INT boost, Elemental Initiate theme and with a multiclass you can even be an okay skill character without a total waste of a Reflex. Take Healing Strike at Level 1 , then swap it out for Mighty Hew when you get an encounter healing utility. If straight Battle Cleric take the feat that heals you your Strength Mod when you use healing word.



oh, i like the str/cha barb|cleric...I'd prob want to pick up some utility, encounter heals, bu I will search no further for an alternate build. so from here on, advice on this build? 

What about going elemental initiate, MCing rogue and picking up Daring slinger for greater range and versatility? or what about using Ki Focus plus any combo rather than using dagger for my imp/weapon? 



Just use a Javelin if you need a ranged attack. You won't have the DEX to MC rogue. Heck, that could be your dump stat as you'll suck at those skills and it's an initiative difference of 1. That way you can still be decent at Perception/Nature/Insight.  Resourceful Warlord is a good MC, giving allies a bit of a buff on their Action Points. You'll be front-line melee all day until you face a flying critter or something you can't reach.
Yeah controllers suck, they aren't worth it in almost any party.



can't tell if you're kidding... but there is a good point, maybe I should consider leader|defender... I am also backing up on my opinion on Battle cleric|barbarian, bc the Scale armor doesn't work well in a low magic campaign, where i don't get the heavy armor master-work bonuses
But a +2 Shield bonus while wielding a big, honkin' weapon is rather nice.

You could also go Swordmage|Cleric (I like Deva INT/WIS, Con tertiary) and your damage would drop some but you'd also be in Damage Prevention Mode. Wandering Swordmage/Soul of the World at tiers.
The Battle Cleric (or build WIS/CON) can be pretty durable with BCL. You could also hybrid with a Fighter, Swordmage or Barbarian. A STR/CHR Barbarian|Cleric w/ Hybrid Talent for Thaneborn can be pretty leadery with some de-buffs. I like Cindersoul Genasi for the Fire Resist, Encounter Power and INT boost, Elemental Initiate theme and with a multiclass you can even be an okay skill character without a total waste of a Reflex. Take Healing Strike at Level 1 , then swap it out for Mighty Hew when you get an encounter healing utility. If straight Battle Cleric take the feat that heals you your Strength Mod when you use healing word.



oh, i like the str/cha barb|cleric...I'd prob want to pick up some utility, encounter heals, bu I will search no further for an alternate build. so from here on, advice on this build? 

What about going elemental initiate, MCing rogue and picking up Daring slinger for greater range and versatility? or what about using Ki Focus plus any combo rather than using dagger for my imp/weapon? 



Just use a Javelin if you need a ranged attack. You won't have the DEX to MC rogue. Heck, that could be your dump stat as you'll suck at those skills and it's an initiative difference of 1. That way you can still be decent at Perception/Nature/Insight.  Resourceful Warlord is a good MC, giving allies a bit of a buff on their Action Points. You'll be front-line melee all day until you face a flying critter or something you can't reach.



thx... resourceful warlord is a much better use of my MC feat... and I think yr right i can dump dex, especially since I plan on taking battlewise next level... but I don't think I have the defenses on this build to be anything but ranged.
You'll have Defender AC/FORT and a good WILL (Superior Will any time after the stat boost at 4) and a decent DEX. How is that bad defenses?

Starting 16 (18) STR, 12 or 14 CON, 13 (15) INT, rest in CHA (14+ or leave CON at 10 for starting 16), boost STR/CHA every step.
But a +2 Shield bonus while wielding a big, honkin' weapon is rather nice.



If i'm going to go for a front line hybrid leader in a low magic campaign i'd rather go int battlefront warlord for defense... though i don't know any hybrid to go with it... though maybe that's the way to bring this character into melee: Con/int lazylord|artificer... or go Int lazylord|swordmage if i decide i want defender... or Int/cha lazylord|paladin... but, again, I don't want to get lost in options just yet...

I am going to make the changes i listed in the previous post once i figure out what i'm going to do with my implement 
You'll have Defender AC/FORT and a good WILL (Superior Will any time after the stat boost at 4) and a decent DEX. How is that bad defenses?

Starting 16 (18) STR, 12 or 14 CON, 13 (15) INT, rest in CHA (14+ or leave CON at 10 for starting 16), boost STR/CHA every step.



Only concern is that AC doesnt scale without masterwork armor
So you want a generalist leader who wears light armor and should probably be front line.  Swordmage|Cleric or Swordmage|Warlord (lazy).

How does low magic=no masterwork?
Only concern is that AC doesnt scale without masterwork armor

The same book, DMG2, that introduced inherent bonuses for low-magic campaigns also introduced non-Magical Masterwork.

Also, per the Heroes Of... books, armor auto-scales period, Masterwork or not, clearing up the "question" of whether Masterwork was a mandatory scaling fix or a nice bonus as far as the developers were concerned.
Just want to let you know that your party is disbalanced and will face many challenges. Parties of four don't need a controller and the lack of defenders will definitively be felt.

Psh. Parties of four don't need a defender. Leaders suck too. Parties are all totes disbalanced unless they are all strikerz!
So you want a generalist leader who wears light armor and should probably be front line.  Swordmage|Cleric or Swordmage|Warlord (lazy).

How does low magic=no masterwork?



didn't realize until alcestis' post that heavy armor now autoscales.... problem solved...

back to the issue at hand, any more feedback on the build 
Just want to let you know that your party is disbalanced and will face many challenges. Parties of four don't need a controller and the lack of defenders will definitively be felt.

Psh. Parties of four don't need a defender. Leaders suck too. Parties are all totes disbalanced unless they are all strikerz!



Leaders don't suck and balanced (non-oped) parties of four can definitively benefit from having a defender.
Just want to let you know that your party is disbalanced and will face many challenges. Parties of four don't need a controller and the lack of defenders will definitively be felt.

Psh. Parties of four don't need a defender. Leaders suck too. Parties are all totes disbalanced unless they are all strikerz!



Leaders don't suck and balanced (non-oped) parties of four can definitively benefit from having a defender.



this is especially true if your party is often fighting trolls
Just want to let you know that your party is disbalanced and will face many challenges. Parties of four don't need a controller and the lack of defenders will definitively be felt.

Psh. Parties of four don't need a defender. Leaders suck too. Parties are all totes disbalanced unless they are all strikerz!

Leaders don't suck and balanced (non-oped) parties of four can definitively benefit from having a defender.

Yep. And what Zelink McTrollerson and I were pointing out is the same can be said for a good controller. "Parties of four don't need a controller" is a ridiculous statement that begs for a ridiculous response.
Yep, a party of four where the Defender locks on to an enemy while the leader buffs the striker in to a cannon while the controller leaves the rest of team monster drooling in their Corn Flakes is a thing of beauty.

Back to the build, Hybrid Talent: Thaneborn, Fullblade Proficiency, Expertise, Superior Will and the battlefront healer feats will fill up your slots. You could also start Stormsoul for the damage boost.
Just want to let you know that your party is disbalanced and will face many challenges. Parties of four don't need a controller and the lack of defenders will definitively be felt.

Psh. Parties of four don't need a defender. Leaders suck too. Parties are all totes disbalanced unless they are all strikerz!

Leaders don't suck and balanced (non-oped) parties of four can definitively benefit from having a defender.

Yep. And what Zelink McTrollerson and I were pointing out is the same can be said for a good controller. "Parties of four don't need a controller" is a ridiculous statement that begs for a ridiculous response.



I had always figured that was zelink's last name
Please stop encouraging not-enabling. There are no two strikers that do not either have or quickly are able to get good basics.
Please stop encouraging not-enabling. There are no two strikers that do not either have or quickly are able to get good basics.



Indeed. I'm betting that at least one of your strikers will have a really, really good MBA, and a great ranged MB too. Something like a hexblade, perhaps. Animist would probably work then, or any of the lazylord things. Not having a defender is a problem, but I disagree about controllers being all that bad, particularly if there's no defender. In that case, you desperately need a controller, or at least some control, to limit the enemies' ability to attack, period.

But I don't know all that much about the campaign you'll be in, so take all that for what its worth.


/Seriously, though. Go enabling MBA.

//Hexblades...

///frisbee Saturday?         
If there were more intelligent people here I wouldn't have to troll! Thats right I'm absolving myself of all blame.

And while I'm at it, I think strikers are a waste of time. 4 controller parties ftw. 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Please stop encouraging not-enabling. There are no two strikers that do not either have or quickly are able to get good basics.



Indeed. I'm betting that at least one of your strikers will have a really, really good MBA, and a great ranged MB too. Something like a hexblade, perhaps. Animist would probably work then, or any of the lazylord things. Not having a defender is a problem, but I disagree about controllers being all that bad, particularly if there's no defender. In that case, you desperately need a controller, or at least some control, to limit the enemies' ability to attack, period.

But I don't know all that much about the campaign you'll be in, so take all that for what its worth.


/Seriously, though. Go enabling MBA.

//Hexblades...

///frisbee Saturday?         





Ok, so I started by solving my implement/weapon problem by picking up a staff via MC Invoker, found flame of hope and am now super excited about playing a future switch build (flameswitch variant, fully on line in 2 levels)... I didn't take |warlord bc so many of the powers required the bracers that let you use int/wis for a str attack 1/encounter and I can't count on those... so, tweaks on this build, which has been only slightly altered in the present incarnation, but whose end goal is pretty different?
Please stop encouraging not-enabling. There are no two strikers that do not either have or quickly are able to get good basics.




Tell that to the guy who had to use my Seeker as his basic melee attacker in a THREE-STRIKER lineup. Tongue Out

Of course best thing would be to talk to the striker players and actually build at least semi-cohesively.
Do you know yet what type of strikers you have?

Powers like vengeful blood spirits are fairly ally build dependent.
The only thing I know is a hexblade... the DM has asked that we not share too much about our characters before hand so that no one feels pressured to make something they don't want to... which I understand, as I have been known to try to not so subtly get people to party-op when they don't really want to... so, I am trying to op somewhat blindly, which is its own fun little adventure... I get -5 to hit, but it's better than 3.x where I would have had a 50% miss chance :-)
Hexblade gives you a decent basic attacker even if they completely screw the pooch on their utilities and dailies.