Terrible timing?


DDO (Dungeons & Dragons Online) came out, using 3.5 rules, and a year or so after that WotC released 4th edition.

Now Neverwinter Online is coming out, more or less using 4th edition rules, and I suppose around a year or so after that 5th edition should be going to stores.

As far as I know WotC doesn't gain direct profit from those (subscriptions and sales) other than the licensing of the product, but in any case a game with potentially hundreds of thousands of players is one hell of a propaganda for the tabletop D&D. I know personally at least a few people who hadn't played tabletop D&D in years and decided to pick up a 3ed game again (or for the first time) after playing DDO for a while.

Except... it seems the propaganda is always being made for the edition of D&D that WotC isn't investing anymore. I know it's probably no one's "fault", and these things have long production times, and you can never trully predict an exact release date, and all that... But a little coordination between WotC and the video-games companies to which they licence their products would undoubtedly help WotC a lot. Especially with the publicity video-games have nowadays (quite different from the times of the rather-obscure Menzoberranzan and Shattered Sands computer games).

Should WotC be investing, as a side-project, in a video-game based on D&DNext to be released not long after Next is out?

I heard that recently WotC was sought about a sequel to the renowned Planescape:Torment game... and that they refused it...
If it's true... why, I wonder?
Seems like a big waste of marketing potential to me.


You are correct about the Torment thing.  Monte Cook's numenera is the basis now. 

I think that DDO due to how much they had to change it to make it an MMO will be a fine introduction for 5e.   

I think DDO, despite lots of changes in the rules system, still screams of 3rd edition.
Although of course anything bearing the name D&D is some propaganda for the tabletop game, regardless of edition... if it were a game running the current 5ed rules it'd be a much more effective incentive for video-gamers to try the new 5ed.

And about Torment... it's sad news indeed. In my opinion it's by far the best D&D-based video game ever made. If not the best video game I've ever played on overall...
Having played Neverwinter, I can't really say that it is going to be advertising anything.  It really doesn't use 4th Edition rules at all.  It uses 4th Edition names, and that is about the extent of it.  I'm not the biggest 4th Edition fan, but I am worlds less of a Neverwinter fan.
Make sure to bring out a module (packaged with the base rules) for people used to DDO for seemless transition of any DDO players.

"In the game there is magic" - Orethalion

 

Only got words in my copy.

 

Philosopher Gamer

Having played Neverwinter, I can't really say that it is going to be advertising anything.  It really doesn't use 4th Edition rules at all.  It uses 4th Edition names, and that is about the extent of it.  I'm not the biggest 4th Edition fan, but I am worlds less of a Neverwinter fan.



Yeah, from the gameplay video I was watching of the Beta... I doubt it uses anything D&D at all besides the names.

There were things like the guy's Thief doing 500+ damage with each dagger blow.
As far as I know WotC doesn't gain direct profit from those (subscriptions and sales) other than the licensing of the product ...

If it's anything like other game-related licences I know about, they get a percentage of the sales, so I'd call that direct profit.

In memory of wrecan and his Unearthed Wrecana.

Having played Neverwinter, I can't really say that it is going to be advertising anything.  It really doesn't use 4th Edition rules at all.  It uses 4th Edition names, and that is about the extent of it.  I'm not the biggest 4th Edition fan, but I am worlds less of a Neverwinter fan.



Yeah, from the gameplay video I was watching of the Beta... I doubt it uses anything D&D at all besides the names.

There were things like the guy's Thief doing 500+ damage with each dagger blow.



So D&D4e remains safe as an edition which has never been ported mechanically to a video game? (ironically?)
Having played Neverwinter, I can't really say that it is going to be advertising anything.  It really doesn't use 4th Edition rules at all.  It uses 4th Edition names, and that is about the extent of it.  I'm not the biggest 4th Edition fan, but I am worlds less of a Neverwinter fan.



Yeah, from the gameplay video I was watching of the Beta... I doubt it uses anything D&D at all besides the names.

There were things like the guy's Thief doing 500+ damage with each dagger blow.



So D&D4e remains safe as an edition which has never been ported mechanically to a video game? (ironically?)

Ironically, yes.  4th Edition era FR has been ported plot wise into a video game, but mechanically Neverwinter is nothing at all like 4th Edition.
There was a facebook game (not the tiny adventures one) which seemed to use 4e mechanics, on a battle grid and everything. If you want I could try and chase down the link...

"In the game there is magic" - Orethalion

 

Only got words in my copy.

 

Philosopher Gamer

There was a facebook game (not the tiny adventures one) which seemed to use 4e mechanics, on a battle grid and everything. If you want I could try and chase down the link...

Good point.  I heard it was taken down by the company that made it, and is no longer running.
There was a facebook game (not the tiny adventures one) which seemed to use 4e mechanics, on a battle grid and everything. If you want I could try and chase down the link...

Good point.  I heard it was taken down by the company that made it, and is no longer running.



It didn't use the rules either, but it actually resembles 4e a little unlike Neverwinter.

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There was a facebook game (not the tiny adventures one) which seemed to use 4e mechanics, on a battle grid and everything. If you want I could try and chase down the link...

Good point.  I heard it was taken down by the company that made it, and is no longer running.



It didn't use the rules either, but it actually resembles 4e a little unlike Neverwinter.




Yeah, it was (sadly) the closest we've had so far.
Character creation was horribly over-streamlined,
tactical combat was a joke (in significant part due to dropping OAs, along with any other sense of zone of control, and making all AoEs party-friendly),
HS were dropped,
etc.

But at least you could really see that it was intended to resemble 4e.      
Ironically, yes.  4th Edition era FR has been ported plot wise into a video game, but mechanically Neverwinter is nothing at all like 4th Edition.

Neverwinter is like 4E in much the same way that Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance is like 3E. You can tell that they're trying really hard to make things fit where they have no business trying to fit.

The metagame is not the game.

As far as I know WotC doesn't gain direct profit from those (subscriptions and sales) other than the licensing of the product ...

If it's anything like other game-related licences I know about, they get a percentage of the sales, so I'd call that direct profit.


As far as I've understood from some stuff I read on ENworld I think (yeah that realiable), the gaming licences benefit Hasbro directly and aren't part of the WotC D&D branch.

Hasbro basically owns the D&D brand and has licenced it to WotC for making an TTRPG and maybe miniatures/board games and maybe card games. For a movie or game licence you'd need to talk to Hasbro itself.

It also means that if a D&D game does well or badly makes no difference to WotC.

5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."

 

I once asked the question (in D&D 3.5) "Does a Druid4/Wizard3/ArcaneHierophant1 have Wildshape?". Jesse Decker and Andy Collins: Yes and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Rich Redman and Ed Stark: No and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Skip Williams: Lol, it's worded ambiguously and entirely not how I intended it. (Cust. Serv. Reference# 050815-000323)

Seems to me that getting the greenlight on a videogame adaptation doesn't happen until the tabletop game has a demonstrated track record and playerbase that they can then "See!  Look, lots of potential customers!" to backers.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Ironically, yes.  4th Edition era FR has been ported plot wise into a video game, but mechanically Neverwinter is nothing at all like 4th Edition.

Neverwinter is like 4E in much the same way that Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance is like 3E. You can tell that they're trying really hard to make things fit where they have no business trying to fit.



Dungeons and dragons: daggerdale is also vaguely 4E based from what i remember. Though it resembles it about as well as Dark alliance resembled 3E also. It was also a kinda crappy game :P
Neverwinter MMO is a genric action MMO with 4e names.  No turnbased or tactics.

The only notable feature is the quest builder.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Neverwinter MMO is a genric action MMO with 4e names.  No turnbased or tactics.

The only notable feature is the quest builder.

I kinda like how they integrate action points and daily powers together. That would be a great way of balancing characters with daily resources vs characters without in a tabletop rpg.
I heard that recently WotC was sought about a sequel to the renowned Planescape:Torment game... and that they refused it...
If it's true... why, I wonder?
Seems like a big waste of marketing potential to me.

I don't think they just refused, they just couldn't agree about how much money should be paid for the brand.

Also Torment was one of the sad cases of a brilliant game that was beloved by critics and reviewers and the few people who actually bought it, but the crux was that not that many people bought it.
I heard that recently WotC was sought about a sequel to the renowned Planescape:Torment game... and that they refused it...
If it's true... why, I wonder?
Seems like a big waste of marketing potential to me.

I don't think they just refused, they just couldn't agree about how much money should be paid for the brand.

Also Torment was one of the sad cases of a brilliant game that was beloved by critics and reviewers and the few people who actually bought it, but the crux was that not that many people bought it.



Actually,  that's just a myth.  Tormet was a slow-burner,  similiar to Dragon Age Origins in sales curve,  made it's money back and a healthy profit.

The "Not that many people bought it" is something that was spread around for years primarily by gamers who didn't want to read in their games,  just wanted full voice overs.  Game Journalists,  especially Console-Centric ones,  love to spread that disinformation (Often because they don't know any better,  and don't actually research anything they write). Over time it just became one of those false rumors that refuse to die.

If you google it,  you can find ex-Black Isle employees discussing it's real sales.

@OP

The reason they declined Torment is simple...

Planescape doesn't work with 4th edition's cosmology as Planescape exists today,  InXile is not going to retcon it to 4th edition's cosmology.  WOTC can't let them use 5th edition's rules since they don't really exist yet.  So that means it has to be 2nd or 3rd edition rules.

That creates two headaches for them...

1.  It gives the impression that Planescape will be supported in 5th edition,  when that decision may not yet be made,  and opens them to the complaints if they opt not to update it.

2.  It opens a flamewar on these boards.  The 4th edition players would take that as a clear signal that WOTC doesn't want them,  and we'd have the 3rd edition to 4th edition PR disaster all over again,  when it isn't even true.

It was in WOTC's best interests at this point in time to decline.
Planescape doesn't work with 4th edition's cosmology as Planescape exists today,  InXile is not going to retcon it to 4th edition's cosmology.  WOTC can't let them use 5th edition's rules since they don't really exist yet.  So that means it has to be 2nd or 3rd edition rules.


There is very little if anything in the 4e mechanics that requires the 4e cosmology be adhered to. You might need to refluff/rename a few things (Fey Step comes to mind), and maybe you leave out Shadarkai or something. 

Though I could see if WotC doesn't want to be seen taking sides either for or against 4e right now, as they're trying to convince both 4e fans and those who despise 4e to come buy their new product. 
Another problem of short edition cycles and long production time on games,
I heard that recently WotC was sought about a sequel to the renowned Planescape:Torment game... and that they refused it...
If it's true... why, I wonder?
Seems like a big waste of marketing potential to me.

I don't think they just refused, they just couldn't agree about how much money should be paid for the brand.

Also Torment was one of the sad cases of a brilliant game that was beloved by critics and reviewers and the few people who actually bought it, but the crux was that not that many people bought it.



Actually,  that's just a myth.  Tormet was a slow-burner,  similiar to Dragon Age Origins in sales curve,  made it's money back and a healthy profit.

The "Not that many people bought it" is something that was spread around for years primarily by gamers who didn't want to read in their games,  just wanted full voice overs.  Game Journalists,  especially Console-Centric ones,  love to spread that disinformation (Often because they don't know any better,  and don't actually research anything they write). Over time it just became one of those false rumors that refuse to die.

If you google it,  you can find ex-Black Isle employees discussing it's real sales.
cline.

Google found me this interview with the lead designers stating it made "it made a profit, but not a huge one" which doesn't sound like a "healthy profit"
Another problem of short edition cycles and long production time on games,



Yes. Compounded by the revolutionary style of edition transition.

If someone was making a 3.0 based videogame while 3.5 was being developed, they could theoretically get the 3.5 books as soon as they're finalized before the main print run has gone through (assuming WotC cooperation of course), apply any modifications as seen fit, and end up with a game that looks like it was designed for 3.5 all along that hits the shelves within a few months of the books.
Going 3.5 to 4e or 4e to DDN, such a thing is implausible. 
 WoTC has spammed out 4 sets of core rules in 10 years. A good game takes around 3 years to develop now which is a problem for potential developers. 
The Neverwinter Facebook game seems more like a 3.5E game with 4E terminologies and apparently the guys involved in the development of said game never bothered reading the PHB.  Really, putting Dwarf stats under Human?

Neverwinter MMO is a genric action MMO with 4e names.  No turnbased or tactics.

The only notable feature is the quest builder.

I kinda like how they integrate action points and daily powers together. That would be a great way of balancing characters with daily resources vs characters without in a tabletop rpg.


Actually, from what I understand of the AP/Daily feature, wherein it would take a number of attacks to charge an AP, and you can only activate dailies when you have an AP, I think is a universal adaptation of the Epic tier feat Arcane Mastery, which allowed you to spend an AP to recover a daily, instead of taking an action.

Given the action economy of a real time RPG as opposed to a turn-based RPG, yeah it does make more sense to have dailies and AP function that way.

I think the trouble with trying to adapt 4E to a CRPG involves a number of things:
* turn-based RPGs aren't going to be as popular as real-time RPGs (no facts to support this, just a personal opinion)
* the multi-action-per-turn-with-interrupts-etc. of 4E really only works on a turn-based RPG
* positioning advantages in 4E ideally work on a turn-based RPG

I actually commend the guys who developed the system for being able to translate 4E rules from turn-based to real-time (even if it's not even 50% accurate), and one of the highlights that I LOVE about the system would include little things, like using Ray of Frost for a long time on an opponent eventually causes them to freeze completely -- not something blatantly written in 4E, but even as it stands can easily be a reflavoring on what happens when the enemy is reduced to 0 HP, and a more rules-lax DM could even allow for more interesting improv for said spell.

What I truly feel is lacking is the ability to damage terrain (in instance dungeons at least) and tackle improv a lot.  Then again, it's a CRPG and an MMO at that, so there's only so much one could ask for :3
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This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery. What I hope to be my most useful contributions to the D&D Community: DM Idea: Collaborative Mapping, Classless 4E (homebrew system, that hopefully helps in D&D Next development), Gamma World 7E random character generator (by yours truly), and the Concept of Perfect Imbalance (for D&D Next and other TRPGs in development) Pre-3E D&D should be recognized for what they were: simulation wargames where people could tell stories with The Best Answer to "Why 4E?" Fun vs. Engaging
The AP/Daily recharge is a good method, but it's neither action points, nor is it a daily.

Overall it's shaping up to be a pretty solid, if still generic MMO.  The build-an-adventure is what will really keep things interesting.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I think the trouble with trying to adapt 4E to a CRPG involves a number of things:
* turn-based RPGs aren't going to be as popular as real-time RPGs (no facts to support this, just a personal opinion)
* the multi-action-per-turn-with-interrupts-etc. of 4E really only works on a turn-based RPG
* positioning advantages in 4E ideally work on a turn-based RPG


I agree, though after playing a ton of X-Com in the last few months, it makes it even sadder that we don't have a (more faithful) 4e based game.

That said, I'm digging Neverwinter, and the Foundry (quest-maker) stuff is neat.  It's always interesting to compare other game mechanics to D&D game mechanics, and - personally - it's doubly interesting to look at how D&D looks through various other games.


My one beef at the moment with Neverwinter is the sheer lack of character build options.  It's really obvious (to me at least) how one could build a Warlord class, a Warlock class, a Paladin class, and a Ranger class (well, Archer ranger; two-weapon isn't nearly as glaringly obvious).  Races are simplistic.  Weapon/equipment options (or rather, the complete lack thereof) are unforgivably lacking.  In short: not a lot going on on that front.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
My one beef at the moment with Neverwinter is the sheer lack of character build options.  It's really obvious (to me at least) how one could build a Warlord class, a Warlock class, a Paladin class, and a Ranger class (well, Archer ranger; two-weapon isn't nearly as glaringly obvious).  Races are simplistic.  Weapon/equipment options (or rather, the complete lack thereof) are unforgivably lacking.  In short: not a lot going on on that front.

It's beta, and early.  Archer ranger is in the works.

5e doesn't have a warlord yet either.  

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

It's beta, and early.  Archer ranger is in the works.

5e doesn't have a warlord yet either.  


Oh, it's understandable.  And honestly, kind of good that "lack of content" is my main complaint, since that's to be expected at this point.

Some of it, though, is just hard to understand why they don't have - like the weapons thing.  That could have been as simple as, like, a style (of appearance) for each weapon.  I'm much less interested in "Axes are Different!" than just being able to have an axe, as it turns out.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)

I agree, though after playing a ton of X-Com in the last few months, it makes it even sadder that we don't have a (more faithful) 4e based game.



Yeah X-Com was great, and honestly I don't see why 4E couldn't be made as a turn-based game. Final Fantasy tactics is turn based and that did very well.

I agree, though after playing a ton of X-Com in the last few months, it makes it even sadder that we don't have a (more faithful) 4e based game.



Yeah X-Com was great, and honestly I don't see why 4E couldn't be made as a turn-based game. Final Fantasy tactics is turn based and that did very well.

It could be.  But it would likely be single player.  Turn based just doesn't work for MMO's.


Also Disgaea gives you a similar tactical style.  Though it's much more wonky, both in story and in mechanics (which, they expect you to abuse).

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.


I agree, though after playing a ton of X-Com in the last few months, it makes it even sadder that we don't have a (more faithful) 4e based game.



Yeah X-Com was great, and honestly I don't see why 4E couldn't be made as a turn-based game. Final Fantasy tactics is turn based and that did very well.

It could be.  But it would likely be single player.  Turn based just doesn't work for MMO's.


Also Disgaea gives you a similar tactical style.  Though it's much more wonky, both in story and in mechanics (which, they expect you to abuse).



Disgaea is super wonky, which is either part of its appeal or a big turn off, depending on personal preference.

I personally would totally dig a 4e, single player, turn based videogame. They could also support multiplayer, but that wouldn't be critical for me. (Not supporting 1p would be a dealbreaker for me.)
In fact I would pay into a kickstarter for a faithful rendition of 4e to a single player turn based videogame. But since WotC has to sign off, and legal reasons, etc. it is unfortunately not as simple as kicking off some other kickstarters.

I agree, though after playing a ton of X-Com in the last few months, it makes it even sadder that we don't have a (more faithful) 4e based game.



Yeah X-Com was great, and honestly I don't see why 4E couldn't be made as a turn-based game. Final Fantasy tactics is turn based and that did very well.

It could be.  But it would likely be single player.  Turn based just doesn't work for MMO's.


Also Disgaea gives you a similar tactical style.  Though it's much more wonky, both in story and in mechanics (which, they expect you to abuse).



Disgaea is super wonky, which is either part of its appeal or a big turn off, depending on personal preference.

I personally would totally dig a 4e, single player, turn based videogame. They could also support multiplayer, but that wouldn't be critical for me. (Not supporting 1p would be a dealbreaker for me.)
In fact I would pay into a kickstarter for a faithful rendition of 4e to a single player turn based videogame. But since WotC has to sign off, and legal reasons, etc. it is unfortunately not as simple as kicking off some other kickstarters.

I honestly would NOT want a faithful rendition.

There's plenty of things that need changed.  The 1/2 level bonus, feat taxes, and the untyped bonus stacking at the very least.  I'd also probably make fireball less square, and possibly remove attack rolls.


Though i'd be all for something very similar.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

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