Haggle explained

 "You can use this skill as a full-round action to increase or reduce the sell price of a desired item by 50%."

".... No matter how adept you are at haggling, a creature won't pay more for an item that can easily be obtained eslewhere for the standard listed price"
EDIT: Selling Items(CR 118) "In general, a merchant will buy a used equipment at half its listed price."

The question I have for the first part is that if I am selling an item and i successfully haggle, does that mean that the buyer is willing to pay 75% of the standard price(50%+(50%*50%))?

The second part is very confusing to me. How would someone try to charge more than the standard price? If the answer to the first rule is correct, I don't see how you could charge someone 100% of the cost if a successful haggle moves it up to 75%. Are you able to haggle multiple times in on one transaction?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

The way I read it, if you are buying an item and you successfully haggle, you can reduce the price by 50%. If you are selling an item, you can increase the price by 50%.

So if you are buying a 1000 cr item and you successfully haggle, you can get it for 500 cr. If you are selling a 1000 cr item, you can successfully haggle to sell it for 1500 cr.

As for the second part, the GM needs to determine if the item you are selling can easily be obtained elsewhere. For example, if you are in a metropolitan city and you want to sell a blaster pistol for 50% extra when someone can just get a blaster pistol next door, then the haggle will never work. But if you are the only arms shop in a remote location, then it can work.


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The way I read it, if you are buying an item and you successfully haggle, you can reduce the price by 50%. If you are selling an item, you can increase the price by 50%.

So if you are buying a 1000 cr item and you successfully haggle, you can get it for 500 cr. If you are selling a 1000 cr item, you can successfully haggle to sell it for 1500 cr.

As for the second part, the GM needs to determine if the item you are selling can easily be obtained elsewhere. For example, if you are in a metropolitan city and you want to sell a blaster pistol for 50% extra when someone can just get a blaster pistol next door, then the haggle will never work. But if you are the only arms shop in a remote location, then it can work.





The problem with this is (and i really should have included this in the OP, i will add it) that selling items(CR 118) "In general, a merchant will buy a used equipment at half its listed price." That makes it so that you can not sell its back at full price as you have said.
While I do believe there should be some mechanic for price adjusting I think the Haggle use or Persuasion needs some work.  If you're using it against those fixed DCs for a 50% price change I'm just going to say that the haggling is over who gets the benefit of the exchange.  I mean normally a PC buys at full price and sell at half but a successful haggle turns that arround so they could "take something off your hands" for 50% or "I guess I can part with this" at full price.  For an item listed at 1000 credits this just determine your buy/sell price at 1000 or 500.


Now I'd say a more realistic Haggle would have a variable price adjustment based on the character's rolls.  This is to say that you can haggle that 1000 credit item down to 900 or 800 instead of always going all the way down 500.  Conversely trying to sell an item valued at 1000 credits your haggling could get you 700 or 800 for it instead of the usual 500 or 1000 the item is fully valued at.  With a more variable haggle system I could even see buying below 50% value and perhaps even selling at more then face value although those should be hard things to do.
 
While I do believe there should be some mechanic for price adjusting I think the Haggle use or Persuasion needs some work.  If you're using it against those fixed DCs for a 50% price change I'm just going to say that the haggling is over who gets the benefit of the exchange.  I mean normally a PC buys at full price and sell at half but a successful haggle turns that arround so they could "take something off your hands" for 50% or "I guess I can part with this" at full price.  For an item listed at 1000 credits this just determine your buy/sell price at 1000 or 500.


Now I'd say a more realistic Haggle would have a variable price adjustment based on the character's rolls.  This is to say that you can haggle that 1000 credit item down to 900 or 800 instead of always going all the way down 500.  Conversely trying to sell an item valued at 1000 credits your haggling could get you 700 or 800 for it instead of the usual 500 or 1000 the item is fully valued at.  With a more variable haggle system I could even see buying below 50% value and perhaps even selling at more then face value although those should be hard things to do.
 



I do believe that haggle seems to be broken but I am just trying to figure out the RAW interpretation. I just dont see how one could sell something for more than base price with haggle yet they have rules for such a thing.
It's hard to figuring out the RAW interpretation because when you see "price" it isn't clear what that means.  When you "buy" the price is what you see listed in the book but when you "sell" it is half that much.  Assuming these things are in for the PCs favor that means buying at the list book price or half that much but selling items as either 50% or 75% (150% of 50%) the cost listed in the book.  I'm guessing the closest answer to RAI is that you can use Haggle to change which side of the transaction you are on.

Now I do see how you could sell something from more then its base price but almost certainly not for 150% of the base price.  Now why could that happen?  I'd say it is because you can convince the buyer how baddly you need the money; in short you are trying to play the sympathy card.  Other reasons to pay more than the base price would be for a collectable (in which case you're really dealing with something called art where price is just whatever someone will pay) or perhaps because Deception is being used to make an item appear more valuable.

If you want examples of when/why people may pay more for something than its base price consider:
Charity Fund Raisers:  How many of you have dealt with those scams of selling things for twice what they are worth.
Buying favor:  This really covers a lot of things.
One of a Kind/Rare item:  Anyone ever buy MtG or single minis for more that $1?

There are reasons people pay more for an item then it is worth but they usually should involve more than a simple Persuasion check to haggle.  I mean if Haggling to sell means getting 150% the base price then I don't know how a friendly merchant could stay in business if they run into people who can easily make a DC 20 Persuasion check.

Maybe I'm rambling on but I have a number of problems with the Persuasion skill as presented in the SECR as the checks listed are mostly fixed and seem to be all or nothing.
 

The way I read it, if you are buying an item and you successfully haggle, you can reduce the price by 50%. If you are selling an item, you can increase the price by 50%.

So if you are buying a 1000 cr item and you successfully haggle, you can get it for 500 cr. If you are selling a 1000 cr item, you can successfully haggle to sell it for 1500 cr.

As for the second part, the GM needs to determine if the item you are selling can easily be obtained elsewhere. For example, if you are in a metropolitan city and you want to sell a blaster pistol for 50% extra when someone can just get a blaster pistol next door, then the haggle will never work. But if you are the only arms shop in a remote location, then it can work.





The problem with this is (and i really should have included this in the OP, i will add it) that selling items(CR 118) "In general, a merchant will buy a used equipment at half its listed price." That makes it so that you can not sell its back at full price as you have said.

That's true when selling used equipment. But not when selling the commodities as listed in the box on the same page you mention (ex: art, spice, gems, metals, bacta).

“Commodities are valuable goods that can easily be exchanged almost like cash.”

Therefore if you have 1kg of common spice, worth 1000 cr, you can haggle to try and sell it to someone for 1500 cr. Of course, the DC of the Persuasion check is based on the person's attitude towards you. This is a really good way to make money if you're a trader or in the cargo/transport business.

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 "You can use this skill as a full-round action to increase or reduce the sell price of a desired item by 50%."

".... No matter how adept you are at haggling, a creature won't pay more for an item that can easily be obtained eslewhere for the standard listed price"
EDIT: Selling Items(CR 118) "In general, a merchant will buy a used equipment at half its listed price."

So, according to these rules you could (as a player) pay as little as 50% of normal price, if you make a successful Persuasion. If the merchant also makes his check, that will raise the price to 75% of normal list price.

If you (the player) fail your check, but the merchant makes his check he could insist on 150% of normal price. But if you could go next door and buy the same thing there he would only charge you normal price, or as much as he would think you'd be willing to pay... He could charge you 110% and you would go along, as it may take you hours to find another seller. But that last bit is were the rolplaying comes in.

Last case, if neither of you make your check the price is 100%, or in other words exactly the same as the listed price.

The question I have for the first part is that if I am selling an item and i successfully haggle, does that mean that the buyer is willing to pay 75% of the standard price(50%+(50%*50%))?

The second part is very confusing to me. How would someone try to charge more than the standard price? If the answer to the first rule is correct, I don't see how you could charge someone 100% of the cost if a successful haggle moves it up to 75%. Are you able to haggle multiple times in on one transaction?

Yes, if you make the Persuasion check you could get 75% of the base value. But the buyer could reduce that to 37.5% if he makes his Persuasion check. If the buyer makes his check and you don't, then he will offer only 25%...!

The only time that a player get to ask for the full base price, is if someone asks to buy something of him. In that case, the player is the merchant. Ooh, and unless the buyer is another player, that would be at the GM's discretion every time. I would not recommend letting the players set up a business and acting as merchants. The rules don't cover all the expenses of owning a business, and it really not what the game is about.

About the second part, you normaly only get to make one Persuation check. The only exception I can think of is if you have taken levels in the PrC Crime Lord and picked up the talent Master Manipulator from the UR page 29.

20801.jpg

So, according to these rules you could (as a player) pay as little as 50% of normal price, if you make a successful Persuasion. If the merchant also makes his check, that will raise the price to 75% of normal list price.

If you (the player) fail your check, but the merchant makes his check he could insist on 150% of normal price. But if you could go next door and buy the same thing there he would only charge you normal price, or as much as he would think you'd be willing to pay... He could charge you 110% and you would go along, as it may take you hours to find another seller. But that last bit is were the rolplaying comes in.

Should a GM roll haggle against a player in this way to charge 150%? It seems like bad form.


Yes, if you make the Persuasion check you could get 75% of the base value. But the buyer could reduce that to 37.5% if he makes his Persuasion check. If the buyer makes his check and you don't, then he will offer only 25%...!

The only time that a player get to ask for the full base price, is if someone asks to buy something of him. In that case, the player is the merchant. Ooh, and unless the buyer is another player, that would be at the GM's discretion every time.

I would not recommend letting the players set up a business and acting as merchants. The rules don't cover all the expenses of owning a business, and it really not what the game is about.

Like I mentioned, you can have player who has a cargo ship and transports commodities. It's a good way to make money. As for players owning a business, there's a Corporate Agent PrC, which describes players looking after company interests. Also, the Organization rules in TFU that can cover businesses and large corporations like Czerka.



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So, according to these rules you could (as a player) pay as little as 50% of normal price, if you make a successful Persuasion. If the merchant also makes his check, that will raise the price to 75% of normal list price.

If you (the player) fail your check, but the merchant makes his check he could insist on 150% of normal price. But if you could go next door and buy the same thing there he would only charge you normal price, or as much as he would think you'd be willing to pay... He could charge you 110% and you would go along, as it may take you hours to find another seller. But that last bit is were the rolplaying comes in.

Should a GM roll haggle against a player in this way to charge 150%? It seems like bad form.


The player could then turn it around with haggling to buy it at 75% if they make their check, or try to go find it somewhere else if they fail.

Edit: Well, I suppose you were trying to probably make a point on if they fail their check.  Honestly, I'd probably not buy that item for 150% regular price unless it was something I couldn't get elsewhere much cheaper.
So, according to these rules you could (as a player) pay as little as 50% of normal price, if you make a successful Persuasion. If the merchant also makes his check, that will raise the price to 75% of normal list price.

If you (the player) fail your check, but the merchant makes his check he could insist on 150% of normal price. But if you could go next door and buy the same thing there he would only charge you normal price, or as much as he would think you'd be willing to pay... He could charge you 110% and you would go along, as it may take you hours to find another seller. But that last bit is were the rolplaying comes in.

Should a GM roll haggle against a player in this way to charge 150%? It seems like bad form.

Yes, if you make the Persuasion check you could get 75% of the base value. But the buyer could reduce that to 37.5% if he makes his Persuasion check. If the buyer makes his check and you don't, then he will offer only 25%...!

The only time that a player get to ask for the full base price, is if someone asks to buy something of him. In that case, the player is the merchant. Ooh, and unless the buyer is another player, that would be at the GM's discretion every time.

I would not recommend letting the players set up a business and acting as merchants. The rules don't cover all the expenses of owning a business, and it really not what the game is about.

Like I mentioned, you can have player who has a cargo ship and transports commodities. It's a good way to make money. As for players owning a business, there's a Corporate Agent PrC, which describes players looking after company interests. Also, the Organization rules in TFU that can cover businesses and large corporations like Czerka.


If a PC can sell something for 150% of its listed book price then there is no reason someone shouldn't be able to demand that same mark up for something they are selling to a PC.  If the PCs are trying to abuse the game economy in any way I'd even make them work really hard to find anyone nearby who would sell to them for less.

When it comes to commodities/trade goods that the PCs can sell for "full price" here I'll just point out that part of the reason they are commodities is because the price is so stable for them they can act like credits.  I'm fully aware of how much the real world commodities market can swing back and forth but the same can also be said about currency even if it isn't always as volitile.  Now some things are more/less valuable one place then another but that really doesn't have much to do with haggling but rather supply vs. demand.

At issue with haggling to adjust commodities you may want to consider the simple case that my super Persuasive character could apparently talk to a dealer and buy the goods from him a 50% of their cost and then turn right around and sell them back to him at 150% of their cost.  I've just tripled my money with a couple Persuasion checks.  What's that you say, the dealer refuses to buy them back at that 150% price well then I guess I'll just sell them back to him at there base price; I still double my money!

Like I've already said Haggling has its problems and brings up a lot of questions that are not easily answered.  Unless you're going to rework the entire system a bit I really suggest just going with Haggling as determining who is getting the better deal in what is otherwise a normal transaction.  Normally PCs buy at full price but if they successfully haggle they can buy at half price where things turn around when the PCs are the seller.
 
If you (the player) fail your check, but the merchant makes his check he could insist on 150% of normal price. But if you could go next door and buy the same thing there he would only charge you normal price[...]

Should a GM roll haggle against a player in this way to charge 150%? It seems like bad form.

What, do you think Watto didn't roll Persuation to hagle to set the price of the hyperdrive that Obi-One whanted to buy? So should you do this normaly? No! But what if the players try to haggle for alower price? Then yes, if it fits the encounter. I would even go so far as to say that in some cases, you just can't haggle. Try haggling for the price of a pack of ciggarets or something else that costs only a few $. Especially try this if you are not buying anything else or if the clerk in the store don't know you from before...

The part about charging 150% is even in the rules. But you have to remember this important part: No matter how adept you are at haggling, a creature won't pay more for an item that can easily be obtained elsewhere for the standard listed price. (That is also in there.)

This goes double for players.

This doesn't change the fact that a trader/ sales rep. or merchant won't try to pull a fast one on someone now and then...

20801.jpg

If a PC can sell something for 150% of its listed book price then there is no reason someone shouldn't be able to demand that same mark up for something they are selling to a PC.  If the PCs are trying to abuse the game economy in any way I'd even make them work really hard to find anyone nearby who would sell to them for less.

Usually, PC’s are selling used equipment, whose value is halved to begin with. So you’re already selling at only 50% of the list price. With a successful Haggle check you can try to get 75%. I don’t think that’s abusing game economy, is it?

If a player a playing a trader and haggles to buy spice at a lower price then travels to another sector to sell it at a higher price, that’s not abusing the rules, is it? He’s working for his creds.


At issue with haggling to adjust commodities you may want to consider the simple case that my super Persuasive character could apparently talk to a dealer and buy the goods from him a 50% of their cost and then turn right around and sell them back to him at 150% of their cost.  I've just tripled my money with a couple Persuasion checks.  What's that you say, the dealer refuses to buy them back at that 150% price well then I guess I'll just sell them back to him at there base price; I still double my money!

I don’t think a fair-minded GM would allow this. First, it makes no sense that a merchant who just sold his 1000cr item for 500cr is going to buy it back from you at 1500cr or even 1000cr.


Like I've already said Haggling has its problems and brings up a lot of questions that are not easily answered.  Unless you're going to rework the entire system a bit I really suggest just going with Haggling as determining who is getting the better deal in what is otherwise a normal transaction.  Normally PCs buy at full price but if they successfully haggle they can buy at half price where things turn around when the PCs are the seller.
 

Again, at best, a PC will only get 75% of the list price with a successful haggle check for his used equipment.



What, do you think Watto didn't roll Persuation to hagle to set the price of the hyperdrive that Obi-One whanted to buy?

What happens in the movies and the mechanics for a role-playing game aren’t always comparable.

But I’m glad you bring up this incident. It shows that it didn’t matter how many credits Qui-Gon had, they were not acceptible. No amount of haggling would have worked, not even Force Persuasion! This is something both GM’s and players should be aware of. Depending on where they are in the galaxy, their credits may be worthless.


So should you do this normaly? No! But what if the players try to haggle for alower price? Then yes, if it fits the encounter.

I would even go so far as to say that in some cases, you just can't haggle. Try haggling for the price of a pack of ciggarets or something else that costs only a few $. Especially try this if you are not buying anything else or if the clerk in the store don't know you from before...

You can add things like this to your game. I think the designers kept the haggling rules as simple as possible. They left the details to individual GM’s. This isn’t really a trading game after all.

For example, I can say that in my game, if you fail a Haggle check by 5 or more, then the merchant is considered to have beaten you in the game and the price is increased rather than decreased.


The part about charging 150% is even in the rules. But you have to remember this important part: No matter how adept you are at haggling, a creature won't pay more for an item that can easily be obtained elsewhere for the standard listed price. (That is also in there.)

This goes double for players.

This doesn't change the fact that a trader/ sales rep. or merchant won't try to pull a fast one on someone now and then...

Well, is there anything stopping the GM from having a shopkeeper charge double price to begin with if he’s the only shop that sells those kinds of supplies in that area?



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Should a GM roll haggle against a player in this way to charge 150%? It seems like bad form.

It may be the GM that makes the roll, but it is actually the NPC that is haggling the price. But I already said, this is not something that should happen often. Actually I don't think that the PC's should haggle for the price all the time either. If the players characters are buying a used ship, or maybe some spare perts for that ship, then haggling is fine. It is to be expected even. If they are buying blaster packs, there will be no haggling expected. At least if they are buying less then a crate with 100 blaster packs or more...

What, do you think Watto didn't roll Persuasion to haggle to set the price of the hyperdrive that Obi-One wanted to buy?

What happens in the movies and the mechanics for a role-playing game aren’t always comparable.


But I’m glad you bring up this incident. It shows that it didn’t matter how many credits Qui-Gon had, they were not acceptable. No amount of haggling would have worked, not even Force Persuasion! This is something both GM’s and players should be aware of. Depending on where they are in the galaxy, their credits may be worthless.


True, this is a game and my example is from a film. While I don't try to replicate the films, I do try to include some elements from the films as that makes the players feel like they are part of the Star Wars Saga.

I do believe that SAGA is an equal opportunity game. That means that most rules apply for PC's and NPC's alike. So if a player can do it, then the GM can do it.


So, no I don't believe that letting a NPC haggle against the player once in a while is bad form. I think it can actually help to maintain the suspension of disbelief. But used the wrong way, it can be destructive to the game and upset the players. But on the other hand, anything that is used too heavy handed in a game can do that.


I would be less inclined to separate corporate/imperial/republic credits and other currencies, just to avoid the bookkeeping... To me this is an example of something that is great in a film, but may be more trouble then it is worth to keep track of in a game.



The part about charging 150% is even in the rules. But you have to remember this important part: No matter how adept you are at haggling, a creature won't pay more for an item that can easily be obtained elsewhere for the standard listed price. (That is also in there.)

This goes double for players.

This doesn't change the fact that a trader/ sales rep. or merchant won't try to pull a fast one on someone now and then...

Well, is there anything stopping the GM from having a shopkeeper charge double price to begin with if he’s the only shop that sells those kinds of supplies in that area?

No, not a thing! Actually you may even do this by adding availability: Rare, to the goods or supplies for this area/planet/system. That would double the price by the rules. If you try to buy supplies in a remote mining colony, this is probably what would happen.

20801.jpg

This came up in another thread with the poison costs. Are you allowed to haggle when purchasing items over the Black Market? I can't find anything that prevents it. But I wanted to check and see.

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This came up in another thread with the poison costs. Are you allowed to haggle when purchasing items over the Black Market? I can't find anything that prevents it. But I wanted to check and see.


I would say you can definitely haggle with the black market. Since the black market isn't selling things through the normal channels, they would be open to price increases and decreases.
I'd say black market items are certainly more open for haggling.

A thing I really question here is how the "licensing" requirements for an item (including illegal/black market markups) would aid a PC selling an item.  Buying an illegal item on the black market may have a x5 cost multiplier but I am most likely NOT going to give that benefit to something the PCs are selling unless I am taking that additional income away some how. 
you ever haggled in real life?

I've never heard of anyone trying to haggle over the price of something bought at a convenience store or franchise establishment. I've heard in the US one can buy guns at a walmart store, so I guess you normally can't haggle over the price of those. however, whenever I buy/sell/trade things at a 'flea' market, haggling becomes really important. what you haggle about here is trying to convince the potential buyer that it's a good-as-new object at a lower-than-usual price (or so selling it at 75% its 'original value'). the potential buyer can then try to convince you that the offer he's making is as good as you'll get, or that it's more convenient for you to take said offer and speed up the day's sales (or so buying it at 25% its 'original value). sometimes a potential buyer isn't sure about the market value of a rare item, but if your Persuasion skills are good enough you can convince him that 75% of its 'original value' is actually a very low price for said item.

anyway, 'flea' market economies don't work in all situations. but in my experience, I feel like in a space western kinda setting whenever selling and trading my stuff at such places (specially because of the desert climate in my hometown).
I have and it can work.  Many times you can do as come kind of "ad match" which may not be haggling but can certainly be used as a point to haggle.  Most of those "ad match guarentees" are for the EXACT same item; if the store you're in doesn't have that exact item the you're SOL.  Now if the store you are in has a very similar item you may be able to haggle for them to get you that item.

Now haggling may not work well at places like walmart but that is often because you can't get at the person you need to talk to who can authorize the new price.  At smaller stores it certainly can be done.  I'll say that the more you're laying out the better your chances are that some kind of haggling will be done and even expected; how many people walk into an automotive dealer and pay the list price for a car?
 
 how many people walk into an automotive dealer and pay the list price for a car?
 



Oh, I've known one or two... Undecided
 how many people walk into an automotive dealer and pay the list price for a car?
 



Oh, I've known one or two... 

A new car?

I guess it can happen when the damand for a model is much greater then the supply but it isn't something most people should do.

I'll just mention that even banks can be haggled with successfully when looking at things like terms and fees.

 
Oh, yes, a new car.  One that he was paying off for 3 years after he fell out of love with it... he wanted to be a 'big man'... not appear chicken...

There is another person I know who has also paid full price for a new car, and insisted that it is actually impossible to talk them down (haggle), and the sticker price is the lowest you will get it for.

Some people make my head hurt.

I think they need some help from Emtrey.
Oh, yes, a new car.  One that he was paying off for 3 years after he fell out of love with it... he wanted to be a 'big man'... not appear chicken...

There is another person I know who has also paid full price for a new car, and insisted that it is actually impossible to talk them down (haggle), and the sticker price is the lowest you will get it for.

Some people make my head hurt.

I think they need some help from Emtrey.


I don't think anyone can haggle and secure goods quite like Emtrey.
Oh, yes, a new car.  One that he was paying off for 3 years after he fell out of love with it... he wanted to be a 'big man'... not appear chicken...

There is another person I know who has also paid full price for a new car, and insisted that it is actually impossible to talk them down (haggle), and the sticker price is the lowest you will get it for.

Some people make my head hurt.

I think they need some help from Emtrey.


I don't think anyone can haggle and secure goods quite like Emtrey.



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I'm both selfish and rational. I'm scheming, secretive and manipulative; I use knowledge as a tool for personal gain, and in turn obtaining more knowledge. At best, I am mysterious and stealthy; at worst, I am distrustful and opportunistic.

Quick, cheap, or in good condition:  pick two 


When those are the choices cheap and good condition are by far the winners.  As for the quick you need to have enough forsight that you can go for a slow acquisition and still have it in time.

I'd say the one of the best things to have when you want to haggle is the ability to turn around and walk back out the door. 
I have and it can work.  Many times you can do as come kind of "ad match" which may not be haggling but can certainly be used as a point to haggle.  Most of those "ad match guarentees" are for the EXACT same item; if the store you're in doesn't have that exact item the you're SOL.

that's right and I hadn't think about that. the ad match haggle should work in places like star walmart...
how many people walk into an automotive dealer and pay the list price for a car?
 

which makes me think that it can plausibly range from 75% base price on a good haggle from the buyer up to 125% base price when the seller takes advantage of a buyer's naivety through a good fast-talk (and the offering of cool car accessories and/or guarantees)

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