Ability Score increase with Levels

Just wondering what everyone else thinks of this?

reading magic items section, this baseline ability increase pretty much null and voids magical items along the lines of Girdle of Giant Strength and Gauntlets of Ogre Power (among others i'm sure), just purely from a melee perspective.


Also if you think logically about this? Can you really improve Intelligence or Dexterity in Real life?


Intelligence is granted at birth in effect through geneology, Dexterity also lies within this realm, with fast twitch muscle fibres? Charisma is geneology

Strength can be improved upon slightly through work, but not tremendously without roid/HGH usage - could be a possibility, Wisdom can be improved upon. Constitution arguably can be improved upon with work/training etc but also has geneology involved.


So yeah, I have some issues with this baseline somewhat, for certain abilities baseline.      
  
Intelligence is not innate. It has genetic factors sure, but it is also good old fashioned Book Learnin' and can absolutely be increased in real life. Dexterity can also be increased - if it were purely genetic then why would professional ball players bother practicing? If it was decided at birth whether or not they could catch there would be no purpose to training. Finally, Charisma is absolutely not geneology. Confidence, social grace, and the ability to perform under pressure are all real world skills that absolutely nobody is born with.

And if you're really saying that Strength cannot be improved greatly, then I'm not entirely sure what you think Strength is. 

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Intelligence is not innate. It has genetic factors sure, but it is also good old fashioned Book Learnin' and can absolutely be increased in real life. Dexterity can also be increased - if it were purely genetic then why would professional ball players bother practicing? If it was decided at birth whether or not they could catch there would be no purpose to training. Finally, Charisma is absolutely not geneology. Confidence, social grace, and the ability to perform under pressure are all real world skills that absolutely nobody is born with.

And if you're really saying that Strength cannot be improved greatly, then I'm not entirely sure what you think Strength is. 



Depends on how you view intelligence, baseline intelligence imao, cannot be increased in RL, sure you can read, that's just information, doesn't really make you more intelligent as in IQ intelligent, it certainly makes you more informed, not more intelligent.

but anyhow this is minor, I put that out there just as an example that's all.


The main issue I can see, is as I say, classical D&D magical items are basically worthless in lieu of this particular ability score gain ever few levels. That was my main point, then just a logical think about abilities and a bit of realism thrown in. ;)     

Magic items aren't nullified by ability score increases. Natural ability scores max out at 20, and a Belt of Giant Strength raises your Strength above 20 even at its lowest.
Magic items aren't nullified by ability score increases. Natural ability scores max out at 20, and a Belt of Giant Strength raises your Strength above 20 even at its lowest.




Only with higher iterations of the belt is it useful (23-29 but exceedingly rare). Also Gauntlets of Ogre Powerare null and void (19 Str), I don;t know what else this effects, haven't bothered looking, but it may.

Magic items aren't nullified by ability score increases. Natural ability scores max out at 20, and a Belt of Giant Strength raises your Strength above 20 even at its lowest.




Only with higher iterations of the belt is it useful (23-29 but exceedingly rare). Also Gauntlets of Ogre Powerare null and void (19 Str), I don;t know what else this effects, haven't bothered looking, but it may.




It only renders the gauntlets obsolete if you raise your Str.  A Rogue can benefit greatly from the Gauntlets while focusing his ability score raises on Dex and Int.  Even on a fighter, he can focus on Dex and Con and wear the Gauntlets.  Even if you do raise Str to come up to the 19 or 20, you can pass the gauntlets to the rogue next to you or sell them off, trade them to an NPC for some important help he wouldn't normally have given, etc.  There are a lot of options with how they can be useful even after they can't raise your Str.

With skills, saves, attacks, AC, spell DCs, and so forth being tied to them and having little or nothing more adding to them in many cases than just the ability modifier, I think they need to be improvable over time to improve other things tied to them.
Hi,

This is more suitable for Playtest Packet Discussion so I'll be moving it there.

Thanks!

Monica
Just wondering what everyone else thinks of this?

reading magic items section, this baseline ability increase pretty much null and voids magical items along the lines of Girdle of Giant Strength and Gauntlets of Ogre Power (among others i'm sure), just purely from a melee perspective.



Uh, no. Having gauntlets or a girdle nullifies the need to increase ability scores, not the other way around.


Also if you think logically about this? Can you really improve Intelligence or Dexterity in Real life?



Well, first off - yes. You can increase Intelligence and Dexterity "in real life", but even if you couldn't, why should that matter to D&D?


Charisma is geneology



Wrong. Charisma is *in part* a product of one's genes, but also part of one's own *trained* ability at interacting with others.



So yeah, I have some issues with this baseline somewhat, for certain abilities baseline.      
  


This is nonsense; I'm not even sure what this sentence is supposed to mean.
Just wondering what everyone else thinks of this?

reading magic items section, this baseline ability increase pretty much null and voids magical items along the lines of Girdle of Giant Strength and Gauntlets of Ogre Power (among others i'm sure), just purely from a melee perspective.



Uh, no. Having gauntlets or a girdle nullifies the need to increase ability scores, not the other way around.




Pretty much. If I can just wear some gloves to be at or above my max ability in something... why would I ever improve it? And what if I had previously improved my STR and then found the gloves? That's sort of a downer, because I wasted all that effort. And yeah, I could "just give it to the Rogue", but, but then that just means that they instantly get the ability I had been striving my entire character life for. What was the point?  
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Lets talk about what ability scores actually are, and how they might be trained. 

Strength: A measure of one's muscle.
     Trained by exercize focusing on building muscle mass (pushups, situps, weight lifting, etc...)

Dexterity: A measure of one's agility and speed.
     Trained by repetitive practice (Training with a bow raises your overall hand/eye coordination, for more modern example, playing computer games increases manual dexterity.)

Constitution: A measure of one's physical wellness and stamina.
     Trained by exercize focusing on cardio vascular (running, jogging, biking, etc...)

Intelligence: A measure of one's reasoning and knowledge:
     Trained by playing brain games and education (Word puzzles, studying, reading books, etc...)

Wisdom: A measure of one's ability to act using knowledge and percieve truths.
     Trained by every day life (thus why WIS increases with age) and deep thought (Critical Thinking, meditation, observation [like how monks will stare at a praying mantis for days at a time])

Charisma: A measure of one's social skills and force of will.
     Trained by social interactions and confrontation (debate,  politics, etc...)

After going through all of these, I don't see why abilities couldn't be trained. Yes, some of these can be based off of genetics, but it's certainly possible to improve them through exercize/pracitce. 

Side note: I don't think that wisdom is indicative of perception in real life, but I suppose it is the closest ability they have in DnD. 
Side note: I don't think that wisdom is indicative of perception in real life, but I suppose it is the closest ability they have in DnD. 



It's not perfect, but if you consider perception to involve being able to intuit the presence or state of something from ambiant information, it makes sense.

For example, when in the woods, the whole party might actually hear the grass moving, but it doesn't draw the attention of those with low wisdom, whereas as the high wisdom ranger knows that it's a Lion moving in the grass.
You're right Trillinon, it does make sense when interpreted that way. I sometimes find it hard to think along thoe lines though.

The problem I guess I have with wisdom and perception is how, in the real world, some people can literally see, hear, smell, etc. better than others. When one character in DnD succedes on a perception check but others don't, its human nature to assume that he heard or saw it but the others didn't. I often feel as though "perception" should be its own ability, instead of being a handful of skills tied to wisdom.

But I realize that it's really subjective, and that it probably won't change. 

Depends on how you view intelligence, baseline intelligence imao, cannot be increased in RL, sure you can read, that's just information, doesn't really make you more intelligent as in IQ intelligent, it certainly makes you more informed, not more intelligent.



False.  There is a saying in professional testing circles: "IQ tests test your ability to take IQ tests."  Wexler and Stanford-Binet (the two most common IQ tests) correlate very highly to each other, but not to anything else.

Your view of intelligence is fairly common: that is, the belief that somehow beyond facts memorized, and skills learned, there is an innate "raw smarts".  However, nobody has ever been able to conclusively identify what it is, nor devise a test that tests for it.  In fact, the more research that is done, the more we find that environmental variables determine the factors that we associate with intelligence.

Then there's the now-classic experiment: researchers gave a group of 2nd graders a test.  Then they divided the children into two groups, and sat down with each child individually.  Each child was told almost exactly the same thing, with one small difference: those in group A were told, "You did well on that test, you must be smart."  Those in group B were told, "You did well on that test, you must have tried really hard."

Then they gave all the kids another test.  On that second test, the kids in group A did relatively worse than the kids in group B.
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