Hello!

15 posts / 0 new
Last post
I'm currently designing my own section of a campaign I'm playing. What are some good 'mage hunter' esque classes?
What level are you looking at?

I'm sure there are a few good class options, but the list gets bigger if you're starting at a higher level for the classes that get Spell Resistance.

The feats Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, and Pierce Magical Protection from Complete Arcane are good for a mage killer, but only if you aren't a caster yourself. 
Right. What Ahruhn said, those 3 feats. I'd play a ranger with the variant of a non-caster given on p. 13 of Complete Warrior. I think the feats only lower the caster level of the neutralize poison or something, a very minor trade-off to mess with pesky magicky dudes!

Neue

Oh, P.S. Don't forget that cold iron magebane sword!

Oh, P.S. I had a player in a core game that played a core monk that took the grapple feats, I recall him foiling many a spellcaster because it's so hard to cast spells while grappled. As DM, I hated it, because I hate the grapple mechanics, but he was damned effective. And they get a little SR at some middle level or something too.
Speaking of ranger, the arcane hunter alternative class feature (Complete Mage, p32) gives you “arcanists” as a favored enemy.  

The nemesis feat (Book of Exalted Deeds, p44) lets you sense a favored enemy within 60 feet.  That would be handy if you need to ferret out magi in the local population.  

The solitary hunting alternative class feature (Dragon 347, p91) lets you add your favored enemy bonus to attack rolls.  Oddly, you get the bonus starting at 1st level even though you wouldn't have gotten your animal companion until 4th level.  

Assuming a divine caster hunting arcane casters fits what you're going for, the church inquisitor prestige class (Complete Divine, p26) would be nice.  It's themed on dealing with illusions and min-affecting magic. 
There's also this "Anti Magic Torgue", I forgot from what book, that let's you use an Anti Magic Field a few times a day. I think it puts it on yourself, so melee tactics only, might be good on a grappler.

5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."

 

I once asked the question (in D&D 3.5) "Does a Druid4/Wizard3/ArcaneHierophant1 have Wildshape?". Jesse Decker and Andy Collins: Yes and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Rich Redman and Ed Stark: No and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Skip Williams: Lol, it's worded ambiguously and entirely not how I intended it. (Cust. Serv. Reference# 050815-000323)

Isn't that the artifact Tongue of Vecna?
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls

  1. There are no "mage hunter" classes. Classes are designed to encompass a wide variety of characters, each following their own specialization which may or may not be mage hunting.

  2. Mage hunter prestige classes may not actually be good at their job.

  3. Many "mage hunter" builds can be locked down at varying levels, no matter how hard they try. An archer can't shoot past a Wind Wall and a barbarian cannot follow a Teleport.

  4. Overall, the best mage slayer is always going another mage with simmilar or better optimization who has rolled a higher initiative.

All that being said, Occult Slayer (pg 66 Complete Warrior), Defiant (pg 44 Planar Handbook), and Suel Arcanamach (pg 63 Compete Mage) are the only actual classes designed for killing spellcasters that I know of.
Isn't that the artifact Tongue of Vecna?



No. I found it. It's the Antimagic Torc. Forgotten Realms - Underdark p.73. AMF once a day for 25,000gp.

5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."

 

I once asked the question (in D&D 3.5) "Does a Druid4/Wizard3/ArcaneHierophant1 have Wildshape?". Jesse Decker and Andy Collins: Yes and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Rich Redman and Ed Stark: No and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Skip Williams: Lol, it's worded ambiguously and entirely not how I intended it. (Cust. Serv. Reference# 050815-000323)

Not to derail this thread, but I would like to ask an unrelated question based on Maat Mons post.

At Maat Mons. I have been looking for alternative class features that replace the Ranger's animal companion and never seen the Solitary Hunting alternative class feature. Are there others you know of, besides the "distracting" one from one of the books whose name I can't remember?

The solitary hunter is a good one, but the character concept uses Favored Environment, and it doesn't seem it would work with that.
If it wasn't for Shadowfax, Gandalf never would have made it. Shadowfax, the real hero of LotR.
Not to derail this thread, but I would like to ask an unrelated question based on Maat Mons post. At Maat Mons. I have been looking for alternative class features that replace the Ranger's animal companion and never seen the Solitary Hunting alternative class feature. Are there others you know of, besides the "distracting" one from one of the books whose name I can't remember? The solitary hunter is a good one, but the character concept uses Favored Environment, and it doesn't seem it would work with that.


There are overviews like these that might help you. Remember Google is your friend here:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p...

5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."

 

I once asked the question (in D&D 3.5) "Does a Druid4/Wizard3/ArcaneHierophant1 have Wildshape?". Jesse Decker and Andy Collins: Yes and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Rich Redman and Ed Stark: No and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Skip Williams: Lol, it's worded ambiguously and entirely not how I intended it. (Cust. Serv. Reference# 050815-000323)

I'm currently designing my own section of a campaign I'm playing. What are some good 'mage hunter' esque classes?


Biggest point has already been raised: Level matters more than anything else here. It's a serious arms race with magic: mages get harder and harder to stop (especially if they're prepared for the scenario - and information gathering about future events is one of those things they get better at as well), and defenses get more and more elaborate. It will rapidly hit the point where the only thing that can stop a mage is another mage, particularly if they're all well equipped. (On the bruteforce side, a ready mage can actually punch through antimagic in a few different ways (though not all of these are easily acquired), and on the subtle side there can be nested contingencies, simulacra, or astral projections between the mage and you.)

That brings me to the second point - equipment. In many ways this is a function of level (good luck affording an antimagic torc at level 1), so I list it second, but it has a huge impact on the game. Almost to the point that with the right equipment, you can mount a decent challenge using NPC classes devoid of features. 


Oh, P.S. Don't forget that cold iron magebane sword!

Why cold iron? It's more expensive to enhance than other weapons, it won't punch through readily available magic DR (example: Stoneskin can be bypassed using an adamantine sword, but not a cold iron one), and by the time you can afford magebane weapons*, you're likely fighting a mage who can make weapon attacks irrelevant.

* Exception: An artificer can make weapons temporarily magebane for a small fee, and can do this far sooner, but that's basically fighting magic with more magic, and it's not from a core book (which, historically, means it's not likely to be what you're referencing, given your group mostly does core). Interestingly, they can also do the same thing in reverse - an artificer can pretty easily create a scroll of Greater Ironguard, for instance, which means all metallic weapons (no matter their magic) just whiff right through you, and they can do this sooner than the spell is normally available. (If you're using that spell at all, the easiest way to fight it is to make use of crystal weapons - any metal item can be made out of crystal, at no extra cost, and they don't come with any real penalty besides a slightly decreased durability (although again, wizards can foil this without too much trouble via Shatter).)
Oh, P.S. I had a player in a core game that played a core monk that took the grapple feats, I recall him foiling many a spellcaster because it's so hard to cast spells while grappled. As DM, I hated it, because I hate the grapple mechanics, but he was damned effective. And they get a little SR at some middle level or something too.

That strategy only works until level 7, if that (and even if you avoid absolute language spells, there are ready counters - nearly every teleport spell, including the core Dimension Door, lack somatic components for this reason, and they shouldn't require a higher Concentration DC than 24.). Even in a core environment, monks really suck at what they attempt to do, and have no real strong points. Plus, yeah, the grapple rules are annoying as hell - not only are they awkward, they also prevent easy teamwork. (Unless you're grappling via Telekinesis, for instance, but typically people veiw grappling as wrestling, not Force Choke.)

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

What level are you looking at?

I'm sure there are a few good class options, but the list gets bigger if you're starting at a higher level for the classes that get Spell Resistance.

The feats Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, and Pierce Magical Protection from Complete Arcane are good for a mage killer, but only if you aren't a caster yourself. 

it would be between levels 10-15. not entirely sure yet.
What level are you looking at?

I'm sure there are a few good class options, but the list gets bigger if you're starting at a higher level for the classes that get Spell Resistance.

The feats Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, and Pierce Magical Protection from Complete Arcane are good for a mage killer, but only if you aren't a caster yourself. 

it would be between levels 10-15. not entirely sure yet.

Arcanopath Monk Prestige class from Dragon Compendium pg 68 is a spellcaster's nightmare. You can find it here on the web.

Every level it either gets a maneuver that hinders spellcasting, the ability to deflect or reflect weaponlike spells, or other useful abilities that aid in combating magic-users. Additionally, its levels stack with monk levels for Flurry of Blows progression, Unarmed damage, AC bonus, and increased speed progression.

Here's a sample progression through 15th level that I think would work well. Of course, any suggestions people would like to make to improve it are welcome.

Race: Githerzerai (Expanded Psionics Handbook pg11) - for a +2 level adjust (which can be bought off by class level 9 using the rules from Unearthed Arcana pg18) you get +6 dexterity, +2 wisdom, and -2 intelligence; 30' speed, 2 racial Power Points (allows access to Psionic Feats); Psi-like abilities - 3/day each Inertial Armor, Psionic Daze, Catfall, and Concussion Blast, at 11th level gain Plane Shift 1/day; and Power Resistance HD+5

Using the Magic/Psionics the same variant their Power Resistance is equivalent to Spell Resistance HD+5, which is 25% resistant to spells cast by magic users of equal level to you, nothing to shout about, but it's something.

Ability Scores - Using 28 point buy: Str 13, Dex 14 (20), Con 10, Int 13 (11), Wis 16 (18), Cha 8

Class/Feat progression: Fighter2/Monk3/Arcanopath Monk10

1st  Fighter 1 - Feat - Weapon Finesse; Bonus - Dodge (Pre-req ArcMonk)

2nd Fighter 2 - Bonus - Mobility (Pre-req ArcMonk)

3rd Monk 1 - Feat - Improved Grapple; Bonus - Improved Unarmed Strike; Bonus - Stunning Fist; SpAbil - Flurry of Blows

4th Monk 2 - Bonus - Deflect Arrows (Pre-req ArcMonk); SpAbil - Evasion; +1 Wisdom

5th Monk 3 - SpAbil - Substitute Prayerful Meditation (Complete Champion pg48) +2 bonus to saves vs spells and effects from Chaotic creatures and the spells and effects of creatures of opposite moral alignment (good/evil).

6th ArcMonk 1 - Feat - Scorpion's Grasp (Sandstorm pg52): effectively gives you the Improved Grab ability when you attack with natural, light, or one-handed weapons. You no longer suffer a -4 to attack with natural and light weapons when in a grapple. (Because, as mentioned before, Grappling Spellcasters really ruins their day.)
Buy off your first point of level adjust now.
SpAbil - Clap of Deafness

7th ArcMonk 2 - SpAbil - Chop of Muteness

8th ArcMonk 3 - SpAbil - Strike of Confusion; +1 Wisdom

9th ArcMonk 4 - Feat - Mage Slayer (CArcane pg81): +1 bonus to Will Saves; Spellcasters automatically fail when trying to cast defensively in your threatened area. This lowers the Manifester Level of your racial psi-like abilities by 4 if using the Magic/Psionics the same variant.
SpAbil - Deflect Spell
Buy off your last point of level adjust now.

10th ArcMonk 5 - SpAbil - Ki Strike (Cold Iron)

11th ArcMonk 6 - SpAbil - All Seeing Eyes

12th ArcMonk 7 - Feat - Speed of Thought (XPH pg51): +10 Insight bonus to speed when psionically focused. (because faster is better, this brings your speed at this point to 70')
SpAbil - Slap of Forgetfulness (slaps 1d4 arcane spells right from your opponents brain)
+1 Wisdom

13th ArcMonk 8 - SpAbil - Empty Hand

14th ArcMonk 9 - SpAbil - Reflect Spell

15th ArcMonk 10 - Feat - Up the Walls (XPH pg52): Run up and along sheer surfaces at your speed when psionically focused.
SpAbil - Sundering Strike of Oblivion

Another good feat option is Occult Opportunist (Dragon #340 pg87): Get an Attack of Opportunity when an opponent you threaten dismisses a spell, directs or redirects an active spell, casts a Quickened of Swift spell, or attempts to turn or rebuke undead. If the attack is successful your opponent must make a Concentration check (DC 10+damage dealt) or lose the action. It requires 5 ranks in Spellcraft though, so it wouldn't be available until the 12th or 15th level feat and at the cost of 10 skill points since Spellcraft isn't an in class skill. This is something to think about though.


At 15th level this build has a BAB of +11; Fortitude +13 (+15 vs Chaotic and Good/Evil), Reflex +15 (+17 vs Chaotic and Good/Evil), Willpower +16 (+18 vs Chaotic and Good/Evil); a base land speed of 70' (80' when psionically focused), and its Touch AC of 22 (23 with Dodge feat) before deflection bonuses will definitely be helpful against a wizard's touch attack spells.

In order to best utilize the Mage Slayer feat you need to increase your theatened area, otherwise it's as easy as 5'stepping away to cast a spell. I can't think of too many ways of doing this besides increasing your size, so a Belt of Growth or something similar would be a good investment.

Is this a better option for anti-wizard ops than another spellcaster? Probably not. But if you're looking for a martial alternative, this is probably a pretty good one.
Another option would be to go Kalashtar (with flaws?) and use PsyWar instead of fighter. Tashalatora (Secrets of Sarlona) lets your monk levels stack with a psionic class for certain things, including Manifester level and flurry of blows. I think the AC bonus and speed are on the list, too. Kalashtar get a bonus power point per HD, and bonus pp are based on ML, not actual levels in a manifesting class. PsyWar gives access to Expansion, which is a better Enlarge Person, and here's the important part: Manifester levels aren't affected by the loss of caster levels. I forget the exact reason why, but Tempest explained to me over a year ago; I thought it worked like Ahruhn does.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Another option would be to go Kalashtar (with flaws?) and use PsyWar instead of fighter. Tashalatora (Secrets of Sarlona) lets your monk levels stack with a psionic class for certain things, including Manifester level and flurry of blows. I think the AC bonus and speed are on the list, too. Kalashtar get a bonus power point per HD, and bonus pp are based on ML, not actual levels in a manifesting class. PsyWar gives access to Expansion, which is a better Enlarge Person, and here's the important part: Manifester levels aren't affected by the loss of caster levels. I forget the exact reason why, but Tempest explained to me over a year ago; I thought it worked like Ahruhn does.

I was working on a Tashalatora Monk/PsyWar build originally. It was looking pretty good, but I really wanted to give it the Occult Opportunist feat due to its lack of caster specific abilities. Unfortunately, I thought the prereq for 5 ranks in Spellcraft was too much for the PsyWar's 2 skill points per level to overcome, so I started looking for other possibilities and found this.

Tashalatora stacks your levels in the selected psionic class for AC bonus, Flurry of Blows progression, and unarmed damage only, not speed bonus.

The Kalashtar is a good option if using a psionic class. My thinking with using a Githzerai was getting the character's Touch AC as high as possible before magic adjustments since that is what a magic user will be targeting the most. Also, since the Githzerai's ability score bonuses also directly tie into his saving throws, it only makes it more desirable.

Using PsyWar instead of Fighter at the beginning is definitely a viable option, but not with Tashalatora. Tashalatora also requires Monastic Training as a feat prereq, so unless you took a flaw or two to maintain the feats I've selected above, I'm not sure it would be worth it, and I'm really not a big fan of flaws personally. The only low level feat I've put in the progression that I would consider getting rid of is Stunning Fist, but being a Fort save ability, that is really nice against spell casters as well. Later on Speed of Thought could go as well, but I wanted to get the primary caster killer feats in early so that this would still be a decent progression if the OP decided to use it at 10th level.

Also, the 3/4 BAB progression of PsyWar would stunt getting into ArcMonk until 7th level since it requires a +4 BAB for entry, which would also make it a +10 BAB at level 15, giving it one less attack per round. That may be worth it though for 3 levels of PsyWar and Expansion, Grip of Iron, and Precog, Defensive as powers.

Could you direct me to the thread where Tempest explains that Mage Slayer wouldn't affect Manifester levels? I agree with this assessment if using the default rules of XPH, making Psionics function differently from magic. I think, for ease of gameplay though, that most people use the Psionics/Magic the same variant, making a manifster level, for all intents and purposes, the same as a caster level. In our game we go as far as to say that Knowledge(Psionics)=Knowledge(Arcana), Psicraft=Spellcraft, Detect Psionics=Detect Magic, etc.. This may be  a bit of a stretch on the variant rule suggested in XPH, but it makes things easier for us.
Sign In to post comments