Prestige classes beyond 10th

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So, I'm making a Cleric/Warlock/Eldritch Disciple build, getting into ED at 5th level so I can start advancing my Cleric spells and Invocations simultaneously ASAP. That puts me at ED10 at 15th level.

My question is whether or not I can continue to advance in ED or if I have to either switch to something else or continue advancing one of the base classes at that point. I know you can continue advancing a 10 level PrC once you get to Epic levels with restrictions to PrC level based special ability save DCs, but haven't noticed anywhere if you can continue past 10th level prior to Epic.

If the answer is no then are there any Arcane/Divine Caster PrCs that have full spellcasting advancement for both that a Warlock can take advantage of?
You'll have to advance in either another PrC or in a base class.  There is NO WAY to advance a 10 level PrC past level 10 pre-epic.
The ONLY other arcane/divine PrC for which you might qualify is Mystic Theurge in the DMG. It won't advance any of your class abilities, but it does advance casting for both at every level.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Offcially you can't but in the past we have houseruled it that you can use the rules for epic advancement before level 20 in some occasions.

But it would be a houserule and up to your DM to decide. It depends on the classes and character if it would be overpowered or not. It also depends on the kind of campaign your DM is running and the other characters in your party.
If the rest of your party are Monks and fighters it's probably too powerful, but if they are Clerics, Druids and Wizards with good PrCs then you'll probably need it to keep up.

5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."

 

I once asked the question (in D&D 3.5) "Does a Druid4/Wizard3/ArcaneHierophant1 have Wildshape?". Jesse Decker and Andy Collins: Yes and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Rich Redman and Ed Stark: No and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Skip Williams: Lol, it's worded ambiguously and entirely not how I intended it. (Cust. Serv. Reference# 050815-000323)

I considered Mystic Theurge, but the prerequisite is "able to cast 2nd-level arcane spells" not "arcane caster level 3rd' or 4th or whatever. Taking that as a Warlock would still require a DM call to say that 2nd level arcane spells are the equivalent of 2nd level invocations.

I quess the availability of Mystic Theurge or continued progression in Eldritch Disciple pre-epic will be one more question to add to the list I've sent him regarding this build.

Other questions I've asked him include the applicability of Practiced Spellcaster to Eldritch Blast, since that is always a point of contention on the boards.

Also, would levels in Eldritch Disciple in which he gains spellcasting progression in Cleric count as Cleric levels for his Mysticism Domain ability, that being the ability to once per day gain a Luck bonus to saving throws equal to his Charisma bonus for as many rounds as his Cleric level.

Any thoughts on those issues? 
I considered Mystic Theurge, but the prerequisite is "able to cast 2nd-level arcane spells" not "arcane caster level 3rd' or 4th or whatever. Taking that as a Warlock would still require a DM call to say that 2nd level arcane spells are the equivalent of 2nd level invocations.

I quess the availability of Mystic Theurge or continued progression in Eldritch Disciple pre-epic will be one more question to add to the list I've sent him regarding this build.

It really depends on the DM. Overall the MT is a weaker option than having the ED go past level 10.

Other questions I've asked him include the applicability of Practiced Spellcaster to Eldritch Blast, since that is always a point of contention on the boards.

I don't think it's clear but I'd allow it.

Also, would levels in Eldritch Disciple in which he gains spellcasting progression in Cleric count as Cleric levels for his Mysticism Domain ability, that being the ability to once per day gain a Luck bonus to saving throws equal to his Charisma bonus for as many rounds as his Cleric level.

I'm not sure what the rules are but I would not allow that.

Any thoughts on those issues? 



5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."

 

I once asked the question (in D&D 3.5) "Does a Druid4/Wizard3/ArcaneHierophant1 have Wildshape?". Jesse Decker and Andy Collins: Yes and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Rich Redman and Ed Stark: No and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Skip Williams: Lol, it's worded ambiguously and entirely not how I intended it. (Cust. Serv. Reference# 050815-000323)

Also, would levels in Eldritch Disciple in which he gains spellcasting progression in Cleric count as Cleric levels for his Mysticism Domain ability, that being the ability to once per day gain a Luck bonus to saving throws equal to his Charisma bonus for as many rounds as his Cleric level.

I'm not sure what the rules are but I would not allow that.



Yeah, I'm not sure I would allow it in a game I was DMing either, you never know though, I've allowed some things others probably wouldn't over the years. It all depends on how convincing my player is.

Being denied this request wouldn't affect my decision to run the build, it was just a thought that popped into my head considering EDs get the Divine spell progression and ED levels count toward Turning Undead. I thought, "that would be pretty sweet if he let that slide," so I shot him the question. No response yet, though he is a pretty busy guy.
Cleric levels are just what they say they are - levels in the base class "Cleric". That's all the Mysticism Domain ability is going to count.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
There are a few PrCs that advance beyond 10th-level pre-epic but as a general rule you can only advance a PrC past 10th-level with an epic character.  A PrC with fewer then 10 levels has no further progression.  I will also point out the epic progression of the Mystic Theruge only advances ONE spellcasting type at a time instead of both each level; I suspect any other "dual casting advancement" PrC will follow that same model.

Why are you so keen on continuing to advance Warlock and Cleric casting?  For that matter what 5th-level character are you taking into Eldritch Disciple?  It is generally accepted that Warlock loses a lot of steam at higher levels so most characters will go with a Cleric heavy Eldritch Disciple finishing out to 20th-level with things that advance cleric.

When you have a Clerical Domain that looks at cleric level (for example Death, Destruction, and Strength Domains) for its granted power it ONLY looks at cleric levels.  This is like Wizard's familiar only gets special abilities from the table based on the master's Wizard (and Sorcerer) levels although there are ways to count other things.  Now if a PrC REQUIRES a specific domain to enter or grants a specific domain I would allow the PRC class levels to stack with cleric levels to determine the domain's power but this is the only exception.  Only levels in a class that will actually grant a given domain officially stack for determining the Domain Power although I would expand that to include any PrC the requires that domain for entry. 
No, Mystic Theurge says pretty clearly that both arcane and divine spellcasting goes up for each level attained.

DMG pg192 "When a new Mystic Theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously."

Eldritch Disciple works the same way for an invoking class and a divine spellcasting class.

Why wouldn't I want to continue both? I think it would be pretty nice to have a 20th level character with 9th level cleric spells (17th lvl casting/ CL20), a Dark invocation (17th lvl Invoker), and maxed out Eldritch Blast (CL20 with Practiced Spellcaster).

He'd actually enter ED at 6th level though since he requires 8 ranks in Knowledge(Religion). Finishing as Cleric3/Warlock2/EldritchDisciple15 (if allowed), or Cleric3//Warlock2/ED10/MysticTheurge5 (if allowed). Otherwise, I suppose I'll just keep bumping up Cleric to 20 as I'd prefer that to the Warlock abilities.
Which PrCs can advance beyond 10th preEpic? Do they say it specifically in the descriptions?
Moonspeaker and Planar Shepherd from Eberron come to mind; they're both 13 levels, iirc.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
So, it seems pretty clear that PrCs can't advance beyond their given tables until epic levels, if they have 10 levels or more. Oh well, I guess I'll have to see if the DM will allow Mystic Theurge to apply to Warlocks, it would have been nice to be able to continue advancing ED though.

More hps and whatnot.
Yeah, it's a bit of a pain. Sorry.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Yeah, it's a bit of a pain. Sorry.



Golly, being a part of the community is so swell. You got people that come on here with questions hoping to get confirmation of what they already assume, and when told they're wrong will fight tooth and nail no matter what anyone says.

Then you got people who come on asking a question and when told that their thought isn't going to work RAW suck it up and admit it. But then they get snide comments like this tossed in their face.

Kind of makes one think its better to argue until the rest of you give up on it than to thank you for your input and go about your business. At least that way there's a bit more entertainment value from it.
That wasn't meant to be a snide comment, but an empathetic one.

Maybe you should add to your list "people who assume they're being trolled when they're not". THAT was a snide comment.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
No, Mystic Theurge says pretty clearly that both arcane and divine spellcasting goes up for each level attained.

DMG pg192 "When a new Mystic Theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously."

Eldritch Disciple works the same way for an invoking class and a divine spellcasting class.


Is this being directed at me when I'm telling you the EPIC Mystic Theurge does NOT advance both spellcasting types each level?  I'm sorry to tell you again that it does not continue at that advancement rate even if that is how it did thing for the first ten levels.
Why wouldn't I want to continue both? I think it would be pretty nice to have a 20th level character with 9th level cleric spells (17th lvl casting/ CL20), a Dark invocation (17th lvl Invoker), and maxed out Eldritch Blast (CL20 with Practiced Spellcaster).

Because if you do you may be called a power gaming munchkin.  It's pretty much the same reason you "don't want to" continue MT to 14th-level so you can have 17th-level wizard and clerical splellcasting; doing so it just stacking more MAXIMUM POWER on top of MAXIMUM POWER!  IF your DM is fine with obscene power levels and has already thrown out CR/EL and many of the other assumed game balancing tools then everyone would want to do continue there powerful PrCs all the way to 20th-level.  I'm sure you wouldn't mind playing beside a Paladin2/Sorcerer2/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion13 would you?

I will also mention that even if the Warlock had access to a "Practiced Spellcaster" type feat it would NOT improve Eldtritch Blast damage.  EB is tied to your "casting" level and not your "caster" level; to put it another way EB damage increases are like gaining additional spell levels instead of just powering up spells you already know.
He'd actually enter ED at 6th level though since he requires 8 ranks in Knowledge(Religion). Finishing as Cleric3/Warlock2/EldritchDisciple15 (if allowed), or Cleric3//Warlock2/ED10/MysticTheurge5 (if allowed). Otherwise, I suppose I'll just keep bumping up Cleric to 20 as I'd prefer that to the Warlock abilities.


Consider the ED is an invocation+10/divine+9 class I often prefer the Cleric4/Warlock1 entry for an 13/11 casting split although Cleric3/Warlock2 also works pretty well.

Now if you really want a sick character that can do what you want you should look at a Warlock8/DragonSlayer1/UrPriest2/ED9 which gets you invocations as an 18th-level Warlock and 'divine' casting as a 10th-level Ur-Priest which is about equal to a 17th or 18th level cleric.  Perhaps the DM will have some issue with the 'worship' requirement of ED (UrPriest may not get divine spells that that doesn't mean it can't worship a power) but that should be much less of an issue than allowing a PrC to be taken past 10th-level.
Oops, sorry about that, I didn't notice the Epic part before your previous post about the Mystic Theurge. That pretty much makes Epic progression of MT completely worthless.

Keep in mind this is just brainstorming a possible build. I'm not sure what the other players are considering, so I try to come up with a few options since I tend to be the guy that fills in the gaps. Clerics aren't super popular in our group, so if I end up having to fill that role I'd like to have alternate abilities that will help make it a bit more enjoyable.

As far as power gaming goes, we do tend to gravitate toward a higher power hack-n-slash style because our schedules don't allow us to play very often (about once a month, if that).

Your UrPriest idea is pretty interesting, I'll have to look into it more since I  not really familiar with it. I wouldn't be able to play it though because we restrict ourselves to Good and Neutral. This ED build I'm doing is CG.
I'm afraid that any class that advanced mutliple spellcasting types in epic levels could be considered crazy.  Describing the Epic MT as "completely worthless" it pretty spot on as it doesn't even get bonus epic feats that quickly.  Now if you have a couple casting types moving into Epic I think it may be a class worth taking to power them to the max as quickly as possible.

For what it's worth I think it would be pretty fun to play a Warlock/Cleric into Eldritch Disciple.  You'd have Cleric levels for the power but because you're some levels behind a "full caster" it may not be obscene.  Then you have the neat little Warlock tricks you can use all day.  In the Red Tide Adventure Path I rewrote one of the allied NPC from a Sorceress turned Cleric turned MT to a Warlock/Cleric/ED which gave her a nice little boost in usefulness. 
No, Mystic Theurge says pretty clearly that both arcane and divine spellcasting goes up for each level attained.

DMG pg192 "When a new Mystic Theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously."

Eldritch Disciple works the same way for an invoking class and a divine spellcasting class.


Is this being directed at me when I'm telling you the EPIC Mystic Theurge does NOT advance both spellcasting types each level?  I'm sorry to tell you again that it does not continue at that advancement rate even if that is how it did thing for the first ten levels.
Why wouldn't I want to continue both? I think it would be pretty nice to have a 20th level character with 9th level cleric spells (17th lvl casting/ CL20), a Dark invocation (17th lvl Invoker), and maxed out Eldritch Blast (CL20 with Practiced Spellcaster).

Because if you do you may be called a power gaming munchkin.  It's pretty much the same reason you "don't want to" continue MT to 14th-level so you can have 17th-level wizard and clerical splellcasting; doing so it just stacking more MAXIMUM POWER on top of MAXIMUM POWER!  IF your DM is fine with obscene power levels and has already thrown out CR/EL and many of the other assumed game balancing tools then everyone would want to do continue there powerful PrCs all the way to 20th-level.  I'm sure you wouldn't mind playing beside a Paladin2/Sorcerer2/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion13 would you?

I will also mention that even if the Warlock had access to a "Practiced Spellcaster" type feat it would NOT improve Eldtritch Blast damage.  EB is tied to your "casting" level and not your "caster" level; to put it another way EB damage increases are like gaining additional spell levels instead of just powering up spells you already know.
He'd actually enter ED at 6th level though since he requires 8 ranks in Knowledge(Religion). Finishing as Cleric3/Warlock2/EldritchDisciple15 (if allowed), or Cleric3//Warlock2/ED10/MysticTheurge5 (if allowed). Otherwise, I suppose I'll just keep bumping up Cleric to 20 as I'd prefer that to the Warlock abilities.


Consider the ED is an invocation+10/divine+9 class I often prefer the Cleric4/Warlock1 entry for an 13/11 casting split although Cleric3/Warlock2 also works pretty well.

Now if you really want a sick character that can do what you want you should look at a Warlock8/DragonSlayer1/UrPriest2/ED9 which gets you invocations as an 18th-level Warlock and 'divine' casting as a 10th-level Ur-Priest which is about equal to a 17th or 18th level cleric.  Perhaps the DM will have some issue with the 'worship' requirement of ED (UrPriest may not get divine spells that that doesn't mean it can't worship a power) but that should be much less of an issue than allowing a PrC to be taken past 10th-level.


It also depends a lot on the group and players.

For example we currently have one player who basically broke the game with 7 levels of Arcane Hierophant. But then he's a heavy optimizer with a build like this: Bard 2/Druid 3/Mystic Wanderer 1/Green Whisperer 2/Arcane Hierophant 7/Sublime Chord 1 (not in the right order, just to give an impression of the complexity)

Last time we were high level, we had a player with Druid4/Wizard3/ArcaneHierophant12, who needed those 2 extra AH levels just to keep up with the rest of the group.
Officially those two extra levels aren't allowed, we had them progress at the same rate as the rest of the class levels, not similar to the MT epic progression.

But what would have been very overpowered if the optimizer was allowed to do it, was needed for the second guy tostay relevant. Just becuase of the difference in skill between the players.

So in my view it's really a DM's call. It would definitely not be along the rules though.

Oh, and we would not allow anything with Ur-Priest. Trying that would definitely label you a munchkin in my group.

5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."

 

I once asked the question (in D&D 3.5) "Does a Druid4/Wizard3/ArcaneHierophant1 have Wildshape?". Jesse Decker and Andy Collins: Yes and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Rich Redman and Ed Stark: No and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Skip Williams: Lol, it's worded ambiguously and entirely not how I intended it. (Cust. Serv. Reference# 050815-000323)

RogerWilco, your group (or at least parts of it) may already be well past my tolorance for optmization.  If you aren't a spellcaster I have a much higher level of acceptance but that AH you point out sounds like something straight off the Char OP boards as an insane "how do I get 9th-level spells in two casting types" exercise.  Now that Druid4/Wiz3/AH10 could easily pick up 3 levels of MT for spellcasting but that is pushing things.

I could mention that Sublime Chord = Ur-Priest style brokenness. 
RogerWilco, your group (or at least parts of it) may already be well past my tolorance for optmization.  If you aren't a spellcaster I have a much higher level of acceptance but that AH you point out sounds like something straight off the Char OP boards as an insane "how do I get 9th-level spells in two casting types" exercise.  Now that Druid4/Wiz3/AH10 could easily pick up 3 levels of MT for spellcasting but that is pushing things.


That AH never got 9th level spells as our resident optimizer broke the game with a Fighter build before we got to that point. He would only have gotten 1 level 9 Druid spell pre-epic, not two casting types. WIS/INT were below 28 I think.
The rest of the group were a full Cleric and Wizard and the heavily optimized Fighter. By the time we got to Drui4/Wiz3/AH10, most of the rest of the group were already casting 9th level spells while the AH "only" had 7th level spells. With that player at that point, it wasn't a problem to keep progressing in AH.

It's not a weak class, but you need to pull the tricks our optimizer does to make it equal or better than straight caster before epic levels.

I also think that Druid4/Wiz3/AH13 is weaker than Druid3/Wiz3/MT4/AH10, which doesn't progress the class past 10.
I could mention that Sublime Chord = Ur-Priest style brokenness. 

I think it's one notch less broken than the Ur-Priest, but easily abused into brokenness. Now that our best optimizer has set a new record for our group in breaking the game already at level 15-16, we are trying to reduce what we allow at our game.

It's a bit of complex discussion for a few reasons:
- A part of the group thinks that whatever WotC printed must have been very well designed and should be held as gospel.
- Because of the different skill levels in optimizing, what is broken in the hands of on player can be perfectly fine in the hands of another.
- What some players considers broken, some of the others only consider well optimized.
- The discussion on how to fix what's broken also goes along two lines: Either reduce the material available or apply specific nerfs or bans. Some from our group advocate only allowing core, as "all the broken material is from the splatbooks".

But I think discussing our group mechanics in depth goes beyond this thread and maybe should even go in a different subforum.

My point is that what is broken or overpowered not just depends on the material itself, but also on the skills of the player in applying it. Which means it's really up to the DM and the group.

5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."

 

I once asked the question (in D&D 3.5) "Does a Druid4/Wizard3/ArcaneHierophant1 have Wildshape?". Jesse Decker and Andy Collins: Yes and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Rich Redman and Ed Stark: No and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Skip Williams: Lol, it's worded ambiguously and entirely not how I intended it. (Cust. Serv. Reference# 050815-000323)

Well this is the DnD Previous Editions "General" Forum so talking about how a 3.5 group sees the game certain could go here although it may be "off-topic" for this thread.

I admit I didn't exactly look up everything in that Sublime Chord/Druid/AH build but it does smell of that "9th-level spells of two types" even if it doesn't quite get there.  I know the Druid3/Wiz3/MT4/AH10 gets a 17/17 spellcasting split but I think that is the only thing to get it without resorting to some 'cheeze' builds.  I'd still favor a Druid7/Wiz3/AH10 build myself but then I'm not a spellcasting optimizer.

I think I am seeing part of the reason for your groups problems when no one can agree on what the problem is.
- Much of the time the stuff from WotC works well together although there are some broken stand alone pieces and there are also things tucked away in corners and backs of books that react very explosively with other parts of the game.  I know one of the "early entry" feats used my arcane casters is supposedly located in the Complete Arcane (or is it CMage?) but you will never find it looking at the feats chapter of that book.  Even then it may require reading it "a certain way" for it to be used like some people like using it.

- The good ole "where is the line drawn" problem.  If someone plays a "blasty" Wizard they pretty much converted directly from 2ed and there isn't much problem with the character.  Let someone else play a wizard build using all the resource available with liberal interpretations of some things and....  Looking at certain members on these boards it seems the only thing that is even acceptable to them are builds that are extremely optimized; it also doesn't help with some of those same members bash anything that isn't build up to that same level of optimization.

- Anyone who has spend some time on these boards should know that "Core Only" doesn't help fix a broken game at all.  As it is often pointed out the Cleric, Druid, and Wizard are all "core" classes but so are Fighters and Monks. 
Yeah, Core only doesn't solve any problems. RT actually thought up CoDzilla as a response to that thinking. Honestly, the only way to "balance" it is with the Gentlemen's Agreement. The heavy optimizer needs to stop trying to break the game. It would even be more beneficial to teach the others how they can make their characters better.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Yeah, Core only doesn't solve any problems. RT actually thought up CoDzilla as a response to that thinking. Honestly, the only way to "balance" it is with the Gentlemen's Agreement. The heavy optimizer needs to stop trying to break the game. It would even be more beneficial to teach the others how they can make their characters better.


Here I'd even say that "better" means to avoiding the less obvious problems instead of teaching them how to exploit the game.
 
Yup. That's for clarifying that for me.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
*thanks
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Well this is the DnD Previous Editions "General" Forum so talking about how a 3.5 group sees the game certain could go here although it may be "off-topic" for this thread.

Well, it looks like we're going offtopic any way. I hope the OP got his answers and doesn't mind.
I admit I didn't exactly look up everything in that Sublime Chord/Druid/AH build but it does smell of that "9th-level spells of two types" even if it doesn't quite get there.

I wasn't talking about that build, but the Druid4/Wiz3/AH13 one. I assumed you were talking about that as well as continuing a PrC past level 10 pre-epic was the main topic of the thread. The other superoptimized build has broken the game, even the guy who made it agrees, but it has nothing to do with this thread.
I know the Druid3/Wiz3/MT4/AH10 gets a 17/17 spellcasting split but I think that is the only thing to get it without resorting to some 'cheeze' builds.  I'd still favor a Druid7/Wiz3/AH10 build myself but then I'm not a spellcasting optimizer.

Druid7/Wiz3/AH10 would have been the normal way to progress, but Druid4/Wiz3/AH13 was allowed by the group because it was deemed less powerful than Druid3/Wiz3/MT4/AH10 and within the group dynamics it was needed to have the character "keep up" with the full Tier 1 rest of the group.

I think I am seeing part of the reason for your groups problems when no one can agree on what the problem is.

Or even if there is a problem
- Much of the time the stuff from WotC works well together although there are some broken stand alone pieces and there are also things tucked away in corners and backs of books that react very explosively with other parts of the game.

I don't think you have to go searching very far. I'm always surprised how Druid and Monk ended up both in Core in the form they did with the amount of development and playtesting that supposedly went into 3E.
I know one of the "early entry" feats used my arcane casters is supposedly located in the Complete Arcane (or is it CMage?) but you will never find it looking at the feats chapter of that book.  Even then it may require reading it "a certain way" for it to be used like some people like using it.

We've banned Precocious Apprentice or whatever it's called as a way to qualify for things.
- The good ole "where is the line drawn" problem.  If someone plays a "blasty" Wizard they pretty much converted directly from 2ed and there isn't much problem with the character.  Let someone else play a wizard build using all the resource available with liberal interpretations of some things and....  Looking at certain members on these boards it seems the only thing that is even acceptable to them are builds that are extremely optimized; it also doesn't help with some of those same members bash anything that isn't build up to that same level of optimization.

I can filter the forums and ignore certain posters. Especially if they seem to get themselves banned all the time. It's much more of a problem if it's part of the player group dynamic. If one player thinks his Monk is pretty powerful and another claims that 95% of what's printed in 3E is rubbish, except maybe as a 1-2 level dip, then there is a lot of ground to cover within the group.

- Anyone who has spend some time on these boards should know that "Core Only" doesn't help fix a broken game at all.  As it is often pointed out the Cleric, Druid, and Wizard are all "core" classes but so are Fighters and Monks. 

One argument in my group is that Cleric, Wizard, Druid and friends only need a DM that knows to say No when "they try something crazy". My experience is that that leads to DMs nuking things from orbit in the spur of a moment in some weird kind of whack-a-mole, instead of working out more balanced solutions beforehand. It's very unpredictable and can kill entire character concepts in a minute.
But then there is also an argument on how invested you should get in your character and how easily they should die and be replaced. There are a lot of arguments at different levels mixing in with each other.
Yeah, Core only doesn't solve any problems. RT actually thought up CoDzilla as a response to that thinking. Honestly, the only way to "balance" it is with the Gentlemen's Agreement. The heavy optimizer needs to stop trying to break the game. It would even be more beneficial to teach the others how they can make their characters better.


Here I'd even say that "better" means to avoiding the less obvious problems instead of teaching them how to exploit the game.


It depends on what you mean with that.

We have several players in the group who really like having a lot of tactical options and trying to find the optimal solution to overcome very tough challenges. Casting an AMF on the Rogue and then glueing him to the enemy spellcaster with Sovereign Glue type of things.

One player is retiring his Druid at level 16 and is going to play a Wizard instead, because with Shapechange on his spelllist he would not be able to prevent himself from using it, while as a Wizard he can choose to not have it in his spellbook.

Others are happy playing an unoptimized Monk and don't see the problem.

Others believe Wizards are supposed to replace reality and substitute their own, while Fighters just hit things with big pieces of metal because that's how D&D has always been. The game isn't supposed to be balanced.

5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."

 

I once asked the question (in D&D 3.5) "Does a Druid4/Wizard3/ArcaneHierophant1 have Wildshape?". Jesse Decker and Andy Collins: Yes and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Rich Redman and Ed Stark: No and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Skip Williams: Lol, it's worded ambiguously and entirely not how I intended it. (Cust. Serv. Reference# 050815-000323)

Here's a question that has to do with my other questions in this thread. I'm asking this out of pure curiosity, not because I'm considering doing this.

Say I'm running a Cleric/Warlock who goes to Enlightened Spirit. ES gains set Invocations at certain levels and advances Eldritch Blast, but the Invocations are listed under Special Abilities rather than any type of Invocation progression on the class table.

Would you be able to link Eldritch Disciple to Enlightened Spirit and gain the set Invocations that go with that Prestige Class along with its  EB progression but none of its other special abilites? Or because there isn't a specific line item on the class chart for Invocations known you'd get nothing? Can a PrCs spell progression of an existing class even be linked with another PrC or does it have to be linked with a base class?
...
Would you be able to link Eldritch Disciple to Enlightened Spirit and gain the set Invocations that go with that Prestige Class along with its  EB progression but none of its other special abilites? Or because there isn't a specific line item on the class chart for Invocations known you'd get nothing? Can a PrCs spell progression of an existing class even be linked with another PrC or does it have to be linked with a base class?


You know, I think I would allow ED to advance Elightened Spirits "Invocations" despite not having a table like the warlock class does.  You'd only get the specific Invocations as there is no choice with the class and I guess you'd also get the higher Eldritch Blast damage as well.  There may not be a column labeled "Invocations" in the class but it is certainly easy enough to see where there could be.

If a PrC has its own spellcasting then it can be advanced by those PrCs that add "+1 level...spellcasting."  This means a class like Ur-Priest or Assassin can be advanced because they have their own spell progressions while something like Mystic Theurge can not as it advances a different class instead of having its own.
 
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