the downside of shocklands...

61 posts / 0 new
Last post
So this is something I mentioned in other forums but I kind of wanted some more opinions on this. I totally understand that people like the Shocklands and rightly so. Most of the people I play against (particularly in Modern where the Fetchlands are still viable) use ridiculously greedy mana bases so they can play all of the super good cards (Snapcaster, Geist, Liliana of the Veil, Loxodon Smiter, etc) in one deck. That's all fine and good and I applaud them for doing so. What I find funny is most of the people I've played against do most of the work for me. I only have a few Shocklands (I have a pretty modest budget for MtG) so I don't have the luxury of playing a greedy mana base. Most of the time I play a Burn deck and when people play 3-4 fetch lands and a few Shock lands my job gets pretty easy. Hitting yourself for like 6-10 damage a game for the sake of being able to play a 5 color decks seems kind of silly to me.
My question to all of you is, will there be a day when this goes out of style? I mean, I get that it will cycle out of Standard but do any of you see a way out of this kind of greed in Modern or Legacy? I'm not hating on the ability to play what you want in a single deck, I just think it's kind of funny sometimes when I sit down to play and only have to cast a few spells to win the game. I'd kind of like to play against people who aren't just trying to be flashy and "kill me with money". To each their own and I'm not unhappy to win some games. I'd just like to know what all of you think it will take to make the Shocklands go out of style (if anything)?.

EDH decks I play:

 

Prossh: http://community.wizards.com/forum/commander-edh/threads/4101381

 

Derevi: http://community.wizards.com/forum/commander-edh/threads/4025591

 

Kaalia (the beats)

 

Zur (disgusting combo)

 

Damia (Bug Elf deck)

 

Numot (Stax)

 

Norin (Mono Red Suicide)

 

Ghave (Uber combo)

 

Muzzio (Oops, Blightsteel)

Even if they lose to your offmarket burn deck in the head to head, they get much better results against everyone else with Shockland manabases than they do without.

It will never go out if style.
well sure, when both of you half-kill yourselves with shocklands its a fair fight. I guess I missed out on Alara and the rise of 3 (or more) color decks. I stsrted playing MtG when Mercadian Masques was out and I don't exactly remember people playing as greedy a mana base as they are now. I'm not trying to be a hater, like I said I just kind of find it funny.

and I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be insulted by your "offmarket" comment Tongue Out

EDH decks I play:

 

Prossh: http://community.wizards.com/forum/commander-edh/threads/4101381

 

Derevi: http://community.wizards.com/forum/commander-edh/threads/4025591

 

Kaalia (the beats)

 

Zur (disgusting combo)

 

Damia (Bug Elf deck)

 

Numot (Stax)

 

Norin (Mono Red Suicide)

 

Ghave (Uber combo)

 

Muzzio (Oops, Blightsteel)

It's not just the Shocklands though. That type of mana-base has been around for a long time (City of Brass, Ancient Tomb, Pain Lands, etc.).

More often than not, the etra life-loss is negated by the speed and/or flexibility afforded by such lands.
Urza is my Shepherd. Planet Multiverse
On Tolarian Time Bubbles
56849398 wrote:
147480487 wrote:
I'd hate to accidentally walk partially into one.
Random Tolarian wizard's last words. ;)
Real life fact: I'm terrified of Grizzly Bears, Polar Bears... and bears that could potentially blink into reality through a time rift.
It's not just the Shocklands though. That type of mana-base has been around for a long time (City of Brass, Ancient Tomb, Pain Lands, etc.).

More often than not, the etra life-loss is negated by the speed and/or flexibility afforded by such lands.



and I certainly see the flexibility when I play against such constructions. I'm just curious what it would take to see a resurgence of 2 or 3 color decks instead of "I'm splashing all 5 colors" decks. I mean, I guess I could just play standard and hope Theros is more of a 2-3 color set?

My anectode is this:
went down to Modern night. Played against this guy who kept bragging that his deck was worth upwards of $1500. I went 3-0. Can't complain, just find it kind of humorous (and yes, he is a decent player so it's not like he is just bad at MtG and has lots of free money to spend). I'm still laughing about it.

In the same evening, I played Grixis control vs my friend's Money deck and he did beat me because he was able to fetch into Nicol Bolas before I did by a turn. In that instance, I completely see how amazing those kind of decks are. Vs fast aggro or Burn though... I kind of have my doubts.

EDH decks I play:

 

Prossh: http://community.wizards.com/forum/commander-edh/threads/4101381

 

Derevi: http://community.wizards.com/forum/commander-edh/threads/4025591

 

Kaalia (the beats)

 

Zur (disgusting combo)

 

Damia (Bug Elf deck)

 

Numot (Stax)

 

Norin (Mono Red Suicide)

 

Ghave (Uber combo)

 

Muzzio (Oops, Blightsteel)

It's not just the Shocklands though. That type of mana-base has been around for a long time (City of Brass, Ancient Tomb, Pain Lands, etc.).

More often than not, the etra life-loss is negated by the speed and/or flexibility afforded by such lands.



This.

It could also be a case of people playing a "look how much money I spent" deck, as you said.  I'm not against expensive decks or cards, but some people just buy the cards theys ee in the top decks without knowing how to really put them together or play them.  They see all the Fetch and Shock lands not realizing it's Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman etc. that really make the deck.

At the same time, I'm not a huge fan of the shock lands.  I usually opt for the Pain lands, they're cheaper, I don't need the Domain for anything, and after 1 or 2 turns I can generally just start tapping it for colourless; though the games I never draw into one of the two colours can hurt.

Edit: I just saw your post that went up while I was writing mine.  Burn is a strong deck, always has been.  Money does not always equal winning; usually, but not always. 
I'm just curious what it would take to see a resurgence of 2 or 3 color decks instead of "I'm splashing all 5 colors" decks. I mean, I guess I could just play standard and hope Theros is more of a 2-3 color set?



When RtR rotates out, the color-spamming will slow down greatly in Standard. Ravnica is a multicolor block. Maro has said numerous times that they won't do concurrent multi-blocks.

As far as eternal formats are concerned...the pain-for-gain trend of mana-bases will never go away. However, mono-color decks are viable and powerful, and they run mostly basics.

Urza is my Shepherd. Planet Multiverse
On Tolarian Time Bubbles
56849398 wrote:
147480487 wrote:
I'd hate to accidentally walk partially into one.
Random Tolarian wizard's last words. ;)
Real life fact: I'm terrified of Grizzly Bears, Polar Bears... and bears that could potentially blink into reality through a time rift.
I'm just curious what it would take to see a resurgence of 2 or 3 color decks instead of "I'm splashing all 5 colors" decks. I mean, I guess I could just play standard and hope Theros is more of a 2-3 color set?



When RtR rotates out, the color-spamming will slow down greatly in Standard. Ravnica is a multicolor block. Maro has said numerous times that they won't do concurrent multi-blocks.

As far as eternal formats are concerned...the pain-for-gain trend of mana-bases will never go away. However, mono-color decks are viable and powerful, and they run mostly basics.




Yeah, wasn't the Mono-Black deck, The Gate viable for awhile?  Merfolk and Elves are frequently top-10 in Legacy.  Mono-colour is nice; they get to run Wastelands without being worried about them themselves.
thanks for your insightful posts. Just curious about this...

EDH decks I play:

 

Prossh: http://community.wizards.com/forum/commander-edh/threads/4101381

 

Derevi: http://community.wizards.com/forum/commander-edh/threads/4025591

 

Kaalia (the beats)

 

Zur (disgusting combo)

 

Damia (Bug Elf deck)

 

Numot (Stax)

 

Norin (Mono Red Suicide)

 

Ghave (Uber combo)

 

Muzzio (Oops, Blightsteel)

2 things: firstly, most competitive decks don't stretch beyond 3 colors, so they're not too greedy, and a lot of other non-painful duals (Glacial Fortress, Mystic Gate etc) are used in addition to shocks and fetches.

Secondly, if you look at a lot of competitive players, they'll only fetch an untapped shock if they're in a situation where they desperately need both colors. If they don't, they'll usually get a basic land instead, especially if they have an appropriate filter land out. Also, a lot of the GBx modern and standard decks are running Deathrite Shaman atm, so he helps offset any lifeloss that is received.

In short, the loss of life can be worth the ability for lands to come out untapped, and in the case of shocklands doesn't even occur a lot of the time.
I'm all about super-control in MTG. If you're able to stop my shenanigans, then there aren't enough shenanigans. Lv 1 Judge Current Decklists Sweeping Beauty (Casual) A Vision of Clones (Casual) Coming soon... more decks! :-O
I actually like shocklands a lot more than duals. Been trying some different games with different decks in the forbidden program, all Moder-legal. When playing aggressive decks, it doesn't really matter, but with both the GW midrange and Bant control builds that I made, I found that I very often tried to find ways to avoid having to put them into play tapped, especially with the latter deck. Have a Remand in hand? Eh, if they do anything that's really bad, I can buy myself another turn. The extra level of difficulty and thought that the shocks bring to the game compared to duals is a very enjoyable thing to me, because I love being challenged, and duals never did that. So yeah. I think shocks are pretty awesome.
I have a couple 2-colour decks with playsets of the shock and check lands. I don't find i drop more than a max of six life a game. If i were playing a direct burn deck like the OP's i might be a little more careful about throwin my life around. It sounds like the people playing four to five colour "competitive" decks have got a few deckbuilding issues. It seems extremely unfocused to me to attempt a standard deck with more than three colours. I wouldn't base that experience on the shocklands at that point, just sloppy deck construction.
Between Shocklands and the Innstrad Friendlands, I find I rarely end up paying life for my mana-base. You don't need to put them in play untapped.
You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what I create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.
I like the friend lands a lot. In 2 color decks they're excellent.

EDH decks I play:

 

Prossh: http://community.wizards.com/forum/commander-edh/threads/4101381

 

Derevi: http://community.wizards.com/forum/commander-edh/threads/4025591

 

Kaalia (the beats)

 

Zur (disgusting combo)

 

Damia (Bug Elf deck)

 

Numot (Stax)

 

Norin (Mono Red Suicide)

 

Ghave (Uber combo)

 

Muzzio (Oops, Blightsteel)

Life is a resource. Why not use it? 
Life is a resource. Why not use it? 



I agree. Much in the same way that gaining life on its own won't win the game. I just meant that half-killing yourself so you can play Sigarda, Host of Herons and Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker in one deck seems silly to me.

EDH decks I play:

 

Prossh: http://community.wizards.com/forum/commander-edh/threads/4101381

 

Derevi: http://community.wizards.com/forum/commander-edh/threads/4025591

 

Kaalia (the beats)

 

Zur (disgusting combo)

 

Damia (Bug Elf deck)

 

Numot (Stax)

 

Norin (Mono Red Suicide)

 

Ghave (Uber combo)

 

Muzzio (Oops, Blightsteel)

But the shocks do provide the choice.  You can choose to have them come into play tapped and for no life loss.

I do wonder how popular nonoptional shocks would be (rare dual lands that always come into play untapped and always cost 1 life; or alternately, common but 2 life : the anti-Gate)
Lightning Helix or Deathrite Shaman tend to repay the life lost due to Shocklands and fetchlands.

OP plays a burn deck....and hates on people with mana-stabilizing cards....I understand the topic, but I'm not understanding what the problem is...you are winning, .......ack, I'm gonna tap myself, since I don't se the prob
 
I don't think he's complaining as asking if other believe they are really "that good", since based on the decks he's played, they seem to hurt those players mroe then help.
in his metagame, yes...but mana/life will always be viable....to answer the OP question...they will never go out of style
life for mana...im sorry
 
I'm not disagreeing with that fact, life for mana only comes second to life for cards.  

 
Maybe Smoke_Stack should go pro and absolutely destroy anyone who even thinks of running a Shockland against his epic Burn deck.
When the meta-game catches on to how useless Shocklands really are in the face of the most ultimate burn imaginable, they'll feebly toss aside the life-for-mana trade they were clutching to so dearly.

I just can't believe he kept this tech a secret for so long.
I actually like shocklands a lot more than duals. Been trying some different games with different decks in the forbidden program, all Moder-legal. When playing aggressive decks, it doesn't really matter, but with both the GW midrange and Bant control builds that I made, I found that I very often tried to find ways to avoid having to put them into play tapped, especially with the latter deck. Have a Remand in hand? Eh, if they do anything that's really bad, I can buy myself another turn. The extra level of difficulty and thought that the shocks bring to the game compared to duals is a very enjoyable thing to me, because I love being challenged, and duals never did that. So yeah. I think shocks are pretty awesome.



lol, oh man i pml
Decks I play
Show
Legacy TezzFinityLegacy BurnModern Infect(need to break it) T2-dead
[sblock]
57307308 wrote:
Yes, but DOES HE PEE COLOURLESS MANA?
144543765 wrote:
144018173 wrote:
Serra Angel Serra Sphinx Serra Spider Though Vigilance is a poor fit for red, so I'm not sure if we'll ever see Serra Dragon. I could see Serra Demon, though.
Black Serra creature would have vigilance and fear. It would basically be Batman.
[//sblock]
lol, oh man i pml



English. Try using words so that one might understand what message you are trying to convey. Words.
Having more options is always good,and shocklands provide more options. We're not going to have dual lands reprinted any time soon, so shocklands are great- pay life if you really need to, or play it tapped. Depending on what you have in your hand, it should be easy to make the decision.
You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what I create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.
lol, oh man i pml



English. Try using words so that one might understand what message you are trying to convey. Words.



Laughing out loud, oh man I pissed myself laughing.
Decks I play
Show
Legacy TezzFinityLegacy BurnModern Infect(need to break it) T2-dead
[sblock]
57307308 wrote:
Yes, but DOES HE PEE COLOURLESS MANA?
144543765 wrote:
144018173 wrote:
Serra Angel Serra Sphinx Serra Spider Though Vigilance is a poor fit for red, so I'm not sure if we'll ever see Serra Dragon. I could see Serra Demon, though.
Black Serra creature would have vigilance and fear. It would basically be Batman.
[//sblock]
Laughing out loud, oh man I pissed myself laughing.



Well, you certainly are easily amused. I am happy for you.
Well for one, talking about duals and shocks like they are not the same is obsurd.

They are the same thing except the shocks have a better upside to coming into play untapped.

They have basic land types so they can be fetched just like the original duels.

So saying any other dual land is better than the shocks is just stupid.

Sure they lose life with there greedy mana base but they can make it back up with the right cards.
Its just the current deck type thing that is going on but really in modern they are not that greedy.
It only matter for the first couple turns to get those critical colors right for what they are running.

Modern usually has more fetches than shocks in ther emana base and run filter lands to make up for it  cause they can choose to make the rest cipt and not need the life loss cause they already have the mana base going well.

Trust me the core/som style lands are fantastic but they just dont cut it when you need this color now but your stuck cause you couldent fetch for the right color and thus you took more damage than th elife lose would of caused.

 
Decks I play
Show
Legacy TezzFinityLegacy BurnModern Infect(need to break it) T2-dead
[sblock]
57307308 wrote:
Yes, but DOES HE PEE COLOURLESS MANA?
144543765 wrote:
144018173 wrote:
Serra Angel Serra Sphinx Serra Spider Though Vigilance is a poor fit for red, so I'm not sure if we'll ever see Serra Dragon. I could see Serra Demon, though.
Black Serra creature would have vigilance and fear. It would basically be Batman.
[//sblock]
Well for one, talking about duals and shocks like they are not the same is obsurd.

They are the same thing except the shocks have a better upside to coming into play untapped.

They have basic land types so they can be fetched just like the original duels.

So saying any other dual land is better than the shocks is just stupid.

Sure they lose life with there greedy mana base but they can make it back up with the right cards.
Its just the current deck type thing that is going on but really in modern they are not that greedy.
It only matter for the first couple turns to get those critical colors right for what they are running.

Modern usually has more fetches than shocks in ther emana base and run filter lands to make up for it  cause they can choose to make the rest cipt and not need the life loss cause they already have the mana base going well.

Trust me the core/som style lands are fantastic but they just dont cut it when you need this color now but your stuck cause you couldent fetch for the right color and thus you took more damage than th elife lose would of caused.

 


he was talking about the original duals.

nice rant though.

 
120.6. Some effects replace card draws.
Where never seeing them again.
Decks I play
Show
Legacy TezzFinityLegacy BurnModern Infect(need to break it) T2-dead
[sblock]
57307308 wrote:
Yes, but DOES HE PEE COLOURLESS MANA?
144543765 wrote:
144018173 wrote:
Serra Angel Serra Sphinx Serra Spider Though Vigilance is a poor fit for red, so I'm not sure if we'll ever see Serra Dragon. I could see Serra Demon, though.
Black Serra creature would have vigilance and fear. It would basically be Batman.
[//sblock]
Evan Irwin once posed the question...
If a spell read " Draw 3 cards, lose (some number of) life.", at what point would you not play this card. The answers were basically, X = any number less than 10.
I don't think he's complaining as asking if other believe they are really "that good", since based on the decks he's played, they seem to hurt those players mroe then help.



this is exactly what I'm talking about (sorry it took so long for a response, I was away from the net for a weekend). I'm not saying people are dumb for using them or my deck is so freaking amazing (it's not) just that I wonder what it would take to replace Shocks in the meta.

When I originally started playing mtg, duals were not as prevalent (at least to me) and I seemed to manage without them. All I'm saying is, people net deck shockland based strategies and play them poorly on occasion which is funny to watch.

EDH decks I play:

 

Prossh: http://community.wizards.com/forum/commander-edh/threads/4101381

 

Derevi: http://community.wizards.com/forum/commander-edh/threads/4025591

 

Kaalia (the beats)

 

Zur (disgusting combo)

 

Damia (Bug Elf deck)

 

Numot (Stax)

 

Norin (Mono Red Suicide)

 

Ghave (Uber combo)

 

Muzzio (Oops, Blightsteel)

he was talking about the original duals.

nice rant though.



She, but otherwise, yes, I was talking about the original duals. The shocklands feel significantly more involved to me, at least when I'm playing against aggro. It's always a little daunting to put them into play untapped when you're low on life.
he was talking about the original duals.

nice rant though.



She, but otherwise, yes, I was talking about the original duals. The shocklands feel significantly more involved to me, at least when I'm playing against aggro. It's always a little daunting to put them into play untapped when you're low on life.



Which is why the orginal duals are superior and we'll never see them again.
Which is why the orginal duals are superior and we'll never see them again.



Superior in terms of power level, definitely. But so boring and linear to play with. They require no thinking or skill beyond being afraid of direct hosers (Wasteland). But that goes for any card.
Which is why the orginal duals are superior and we'll never see them again.



Superior in terms of power level, definitely. But so boring and linear to play with. They require no thinking or skill beyond being afraid of direct hosers (Wasteland). But that goes for any card.



That's your opinion and I'm not saying it's wrong, I just don't agree with it.  I don't find them (original duals) boring at all.

Personally (if I could afford the originals) I would never choose to play Shocklands over them.  Why would I consciously choose a less powerful version of a card that has the same weaknesses as the more powerful version, but more drawbacks?  This is specifically for cards that serve the exact same function, while not considering budget or other limitations.  Obviously I would run the Shocks now as I don't own the Duals and would never spend $320 (minimum) for a playset.  

I'll agree that the originals may be over powered (in todays meta) but I'm also the kind of person who's building a deck that will run Skullclamps with Bitterblossom and/or Bloodghast; I clearly have no issue with OP/Broken cards (or combos for that matter).  I only mention that about the deck because it may give you an idea of the way I look at cards/combos.

Again, I'm not saying your opinion or mine is "more correct".  I just wanted to explain why I said what i said, in relation to your comments about the duals vs. shocklands.
I don't find them (original duals) boring at all.



You're denying they're boring?

They're a lot of things (useful, powerful, unafffordable) ... and boring is absolutely one of them.  I'm now interested to hear what makes then not-boring to you.  No talking about power or utility or any such thing - tell me what thrilling exciting elements make original dual lands not the boring amalgam of two boring core ingredients.  it's like calling a mixture of flour and salt not-boring because it makes your cooking of things that need flour and salt quicker.  No, flour is boring, salt is boring, and a mixture of the two is still boring.
I don't find them (original duals) boring at all.



You're denying they're boring?

They're a lot of things (useful, powerful, unafffordable) ... and boring is absolutely one of them.  I'm now interested to hear what makes then not-boring to you.  No talking about power or utility or any such thing - tell me what thrilling exciting elements make original dual lands not the boring amalgam of two boring core ingredients.  it's like calling a mixture of flour and salt not-boring because it makes your cooking of things that need flour and salt quicker.  No, flour is boring, salt is boring, and a mixture of the two is still boring.



I was speaking in reference to the comment that Shocklands are more exciting.  Would you have prefered if I had worded it like this; "I don't find the Shocklands any more exciting then the orginal duals", which I don't. 
I'll agree that the originals may be over powered (in todays meta) but I'm also the kind of person who's building a deck that will run Skullclamps with Bitterblossom and/or Bloodghast; I clearly have no issue with OP/Broken cards (or combos for that matter).  I only mention that about the deck because it may give you an idea of the way I look at cards/combos.



To me, the game is about the challenge - the shocklands provide a greater amount of challenge, especially on the control side of things. I like Modern control more than Legacy control specifically because it's underpowered compared to aggro or midrange. I don't like playing purposefully weak decks, but I enjoy building decks within a set of restrictions, something that puts me behind without forcing me to play intentionally bad strategies. The shocks help in that regard, because they force control decks to think a lot more against aggro decks - should I play that Breeding Pool untapped and risk hurting myself in the long run or can I wait a turn? Do I play it untapped and pass the turn because I have Remand in hand, thus giving away that fact? Little things like that make the game more enjoyable for me.

I own Revised duals, I've played with them in tournaments, and they're just not as fun. Winning is fun, winning through adversity much more so.