As the Cleric is to the Priest, the Warlord is to the...

Reading some of the debates on how the Warlord seems (to some) to be too similar (as a concept) to the Fighter, I was suddenly reminded of feedback I had left WotC on a previous packet, stating that the Cleric and the Paladin were too similar, both being divine healers kicking melee butt in respectable arms and armor. I suggested something more like the a Priest class, that had all of the Cleric spellcasting and none of the Paladin's "in-your-face."

The developers may have also perceived this as an issue, or at least an opportunity, as they have broadened the Cleric to include Priest-ly concepts, and broadened the Paladin by stuffing it in the same space as Blackguards, Cavaliers, and Wardens.

There is still the problem of a a 5E divine "pure caster" character being stuck with rarely-used Attack Bonus and Deadly Strike, so the Priest is still not a reality in 5E. Similarly, the Warlord-as-Fighter lacks the option to create a "non-combatant combatant" type character, as you could (eventually) do with the Warlord.

If there were such a class in 5E, how would you see it's mechanics working. What would you call it-- Warlord? Tactician? Damsel? Joxer?

EDIT: I should have been clear that i am envisioning a lightly armed and armored class, to carry through the Cleric?priest comparison-- why does the class need armor, if everyone does the fighting for them?


D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium

Cheerleader?

A class that runs around in full plate and wielding a greatsword but doesn't know how to smack his opponents in the face feels kind of weird.

I can't really think of any examples of non-combatant support classes other than cheerleaders, shrinks, war drummers, horn blowers, standard-bearers, geishas, cooks, etc...
Cheerleader?

A class that runs around in full plate and wielding a greatsword but doesn't know how to smack his opponents in the face feels kind of weird.

I can't really think of any examples of non-combatant support classes other than cheerleaders, shrinks, war drummers, horn blowers, standard-bearers, geishas, cooks, etc...




I gotta say cheerleader is a bard, as are: war drummers, horn blowers, and geishas.  Standard bearers are usually fighters able to take hits, and cooks are experts
Nothing, and that's fine.  We don't need complete symmetry across power types.

At least, that's what the "anti-grid-filler" crowd tells me.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
...Student Council President?


"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk

Commissioned officer.

Which comes from war collages, such as west point.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Why is a Commissioned Officer a separate class from a Gladiator, a Swashbuckler, a Knight (who is also commissioned), an arbalist, and a Wrestler? 

The answer is that it's not.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

Why is a Commissioned Officer a separate class from a Gladiator, a Swashbuckler, a Knight (who is also commissioned), an arbalist, and a Wrestler?  



Greatly different training. if your  Wrestler is the same.. its sily.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I disagree.  They're all masters of the martial arts, regardless of the tradition.  The difference is largely the same as the difference between Clerics of various deities, or Wizards of different Schools.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

I disagree. 


Doesnt matter.

They're all masters of the martial arts, regardless of the tradition.


 Really let me know when there are a total of two classes, -  masters of the mystic arts and masters of the martial arts.


 The difference is largely the same as the difference between Clerics of various deities, or Wizards of different Schools.


Thing is there is similar or perhaps less difference between the clerics and  a wizard.. than a Warlord and a Wrestler.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Ok, if you're gonna play a "Warlord" then I want to play an "Emperor" class.

The Emperor is a lot like a Warlord, and a Fighter for that matter, but has abilities that inspire your Warlord to dig deeper and rally the troops to victory.

The Warlord is a master of Tactics, but my Emperor is a master of Strategy. 

The Warlord bolsters health and morale, but the Emperor gives them a reason to fight.  And pays for it.

The Warlord motivates the injured recruit to get up and keep fighting, but the Emperor's divine charisma inspires the Warlord to keep fighting...suicidally, if need be...after the battle has turned, so that the Emperor (and my concubines) can escape.

Without Emperors, Warlords are just directionless officers, valiantly holding back legions of monsters without any sense of the larger geopolitical purpose.

And the coolest part is that I don't have to earn Emperor status...I just get to roll one and start at level 1!
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
Ok, if you're gonna play a "Warlord" then I want to play an "Emperor" class.

The Emperor is a lot like a Warlord, and a Fighter for that matter, but has abilities that inspire your Warlord to dig deeper and rally the troops to victory.

The Warlord is a master of Tactics, but my Emperor is a master of Strategy. 

The Warlord bolsters health and morale, but the Emperor gives them a reason to fight.  And pays for it.

The Warlord motivates the injured recruit to get up and keep fighting, but the Emperor's divine charisma inspires the Warlord to keep fighting...suicidally, if need be...after the battle has turned, so that the Emperor (and my concubines) can escape.

Without Emperors, Warlords are just directionless officers, valiantly holding back legions of monsters without any sense of the larger geopolitical purpose.

And the coolest part is that I don't have to earn Emperor status...I just get to roll one and start at level 1!


Nice bit of satire, but you know full well that even Warlord fans and supporters don't like the name and the connotations it implies, but haven't been able to find a better one.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Why is a Commissioned Officer a separate class from a Gladiator, a Swashbuckler, a Knight (who is also commissioned), an arbalist, and a Wrestler? 

The answer is that it's not.

Commissioned Officers are trained in a different areas.

"A cadet's class rank, which determines his or her army branch and assignment upon graduation, is calculated as a combination of academic performance (55%), military leadership performance (30%), and physical fitness and athletic performance (15%)"

So 55% int, 30% Cha, and 15% Str/Con.

Sure they are trained to know how to shoot a gun / wield a sword, and get some regular exercise, but the majority of thier training is tactics.  They know how to read maps, how to build forts, how to organize troops, what positions (phalanx, wedge, box, advance, retreat) to call when, when to send in reserves.

A knight is closer to a non-commisioned officer.  He is respected, trusted, known and feared, but he still does is not the one to call the charge.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Anyway, there's already too much overlap between Clerics and Paladins.


  1. Make Divine casting more distinct from Arcane casting

  2. Lose the Cleric's martial abilities; make him a Divine caster.  Oh, and rename him "Priest".

  3. That gives the Paladin more elbow room to play the "divine fighter" role; effectively a hybrid between fighter and priest.

  4. Now create a series of Feats, that only fighters and paladins have access to, that let them function like the Warlord class.


Solved.
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
Having served as both, I can attest that being a commissioned officer at least in a fairly modern army (or air force in my case) is a very different thing than being an enlisted man.  Yes, there is a base level of competency that both need to have (to survive the battlefield), but the training and sensibilities vary greatly from there.

Most career officers begin their careers with about as much military background as most career enlisted men, i.e. very little if any.  It is a completely different culture and way of training (and sensibility).  It's one reason why many NCOs have difficulty making the transition from one to the other as well (and very few high ranking career officers are prior enlisted for a reason!)

I am not sure that this is enough to make being an officer a seperate class, but given the distinction between existing classes, I would certainly say there is at least as much justification for making "officer" a seperate class from "enlisted/fighter" as there is for making Paladin a seperate class from say, Cleric.

-Polaris    
When I see the paladin class called pages.... and the clerics called acolytes and wizards apprentices and druids called neophyts  ... instead of there class name being a high ranking individual I guess then Warlord having implied rank will be something other than meaningless dribble.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 


Nice bit of satire, but you know full well that even Warlord fans and supporters don't like the name and the connotations it implies, but haven't been able to find a better one.



Actually, it's not even the name that turns me off, it's the idea that "leadership" belongs to a certain class.  It sort of diminishes all the other classes.

"Yeah, that's cool you can summon demons and cast lightning bolts, but I'M THE OFFICER."

Maybe that's not how people play it, but that's what it connotes to me. 
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
Actually, it's not even the name that turns me off, it's the idea that "fighting" belongs to a certain class.  It sort of diminishes all the other classes.

"Yeah, that's cool you can summon demons and cast lightning bolts, but I'M THE FIGHTER."

D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Having served as both, I can attest that being a commissioned officer at least in a fairly modern army (or air force in my case) is a very different thing than being an enlisted man.  Yes, there is a base level of competency that both need to have (to survive the battlefield), but the training and sensibilities vary greatly from there.

Most career officers begin their careers with about as much military background as most career enlisted men, i.e. very little if any.  It is a completely different culture and way of training (and sensibility).  It's one reason why many NCOs have difficulty making the transition from one to the other as well (and very few high ranking career officers are prior enlisted for a reason!)

I am not sure that this is enough to make being an officer a seperate class, but given the distinction between existing classes, I would certainly say there is at least as much justification for making "officer" a seperate class from "enlisted/fighter" as there is for making Paladin a seperate class from say, Cleric.

-Polaris    



Yeah, this sort of confirms what I just wrote above.

"Hey, Skippy, let's play an RPG."

"Ok, I'll be the officer and you be the enlisted man!"

"Sweet!" 
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
  It sort of diminishes all the other classes. 


Yes those who can change the laws of reality are diminished by being shown how timing can make there spells work even better.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Actually, it's not even the name that turns me off, it's the idea that "fighting" belongs to a certain class.  It sort of diminishes all the other classes that use weapons.

"Yeah, that's cool you can summon demons and cast lightning bolts, but I'M THE FIGHTER."




Wait...this is one of those koans, right?  I.e., zen puzzle that doesn't actually mean anything but is meant to exercise our minds by making us look for meaning?
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
I'd be fine calling it commisioned officer.

It might help people get their heads around the idea. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Having served as both, I can attest that being a commissioned officer at least in a fairly modern army (or air force in my case) is a very different thing than being an enlisted man.  Yes, there is a base level of competency that both need to have (to survive the battlefield), but the training and sensibilities vary greatly from there.

Most career officers begin their careers with about as much military background as most career enlisted men, i.e. very little if any.  It is a completely different culture and way of training (and sensibility).  It's one reason why many NCOs have difficulty making the transition from one to the other as well (and very few high ranking career officers are prior enlisted for a reason!)

I am not sure that this is enough to make being an officer a seperate class, but given the distinction between existing classes, I would certainly say there is at least as much justification for making "officer" a seperate class from "enlisted/fighter" as there is for making Paladin a seperate class from say, Cleric.

-Polaris    



Yeah, this sort of confirms what I just wrote above.

"Hey, Skippy, let's play an RPG."

"Ok, I'll be the officer and you be the enlisted man!"

"Sweet!" 



Yeah, military life isn't fair, and the fact of military life is that a person with nada experience can (and does) have the power of life or death over those with years of experience.  There are some RPGs that enforce this but give suggestions on how to deal with it (such as how to be the 'captain' in a star trek game).  However, the smart officer knows (or very quickly learns) that the enlisted man is just as skilled as he is, just in a different way, and both are needed.

I am not even suggesting that you have to use the modern commissioned/enlisted split (which is a hold over from the midaevel class system to be honest), but the idea that some members of an army have specific training for leadership and management as an entirely seperate career track is well supported in at least modern armies.

-Polaris    
but the idea that some members of an army have specific training for leadership and management as an entirely seperate career track is well supported in at least modern armies.


Not to mention just about every other field.  Nearly every aspect of business, hell even sports - all have people who are specifically trained to lead and direct other people.

This does not necessarily mean that a hierarchy is required, as some would seem to believe.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Ok, let's play an RPG of an RPG.

I'll play forum moderator, and you guys play regular old forum posters.

So I'll reinforce grammar and spelling, and decide when posts should get deleted.  You'll all be BETTER OFF, so we'll all have more fun, right?

I'd be a lot more in favor of Warlord if it were included by popular vote, but all the people who voted for it would be banned from ever playing it.  I wonder how many people would vote for an Officer class if somebody else always got to be the officer.

As I said above, "As the Cleric is to the Priest, the Warlord is to the Student Council President."

In other words, "the annoying guy who didn't make Varsity but wants to tell everybody what to do anyway", wearing armor.

Off to work!  Cheers!
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
but the idea that some members of an army have specific training for leadership and management as an entirely seperate career track is well supported in at least modern armies.


Not to mention just about every other field.  Nearly every aspect of business, hell even sports - all have people who are specifically trained to lead and direct other people.

This does not necessarily mean that a hierarchy is required, as some would seem to believe.



All quite true.  I was just relating from my own very personal experience.  It's also true that a hierarchy is not required, but in a military setting, one is generally present for what should be obvious reasons.

-Polaris
Ok, let's play an RPG of an RPG.

I'll play forum moderator, and you guys play regular old forum posters.

So I'll reinforce grammar and spelling, and decide when posts should get deleted.  You'll all be BETTER OFF, so we'll all have more fun, right?

I'd be a lot more in favor of Warlord if it were included by popular vote, but all the people who voted for it would be banned from every playing it.  I wonder how many people would vote for an Officer class if somebody else always got to be the officer.

As I said above, "As the Cleric is to the Priest, the Warlord is to the Student Council President."

In other words, "the annoying guy who didn't make Varsity but wants to tell everybody what to do anyway", wearing armor.

Off to work!  Cheers! 



It doesn't have to work that way.  It can if everyone at the table agrees to do it that way, but there are many possible ways that a character with officer's training winds up working with a bunch of people over whom he has no direct authority.  Real officers are actually trained to deal with such situations btw.  An officer that depends on his bars to get things done is IMHO and in my very strong experience a pretty cruddy officer.

-Polaris
but the idea that some members of an army have specific training for leadership and management as an entirely seperate career track is well supported in at least modern armies.


Not to mention just about every other field.  Nearly every aspect of business, hell even sports - all have people who are specifically trained to lead and direct other people.

This does not necessarily mean that a hierarchy is required, as some would seem to believe.



Princes and Princesses..

The game Stormbringer had the Noble it wasnt really good at showing how trained tactics, leadership and guided teamwork could affect how a team fights but the archetype is a long time element even to the degree of having a different "profession" in rpgs.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Ok, let's play an RPG of an RPG.

I'll play forum moderator, and you guys play regular old forum posters.

So I'll reinforce grammar and spelling, and decide when posts should get deleted.  You'll all be BETTER OFF, so we'll all have more fun, right?



What you're describing is more the relationship between the DM and other Players.  Not Warlord and other Characters.

I'd be a lot more in favor of Warlord if it were included by popular vote, but all the people who voted for it would be banned from ever playing it.  I wonder how many people would vote for an Officer class if somebody else always got to be the officer.



Why do you act like all the people that want the Warlord want to outrank and boss around other players?

In 4e, ehe Warlord isn't any more a leader than a Cleric or a Bard.  You don't have to do what he says, but in a fight, you're better off taking his advice than ignoring it.
Having served as both, I can attest that being a commissioned officer at least in a fairly modern army (or air force in my case) is a very different thing than being an enlisted man.  Yes, there is a base level of competency that both need to have (to survive the battlefield), but the training and sensibilities vary greatly from there.

Could you list some differences?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Having served as both, I can attest that being a commissioned officer at least in a fairly modern army (or air force in my case) is a very different thing than being an enlisted man.  Yes, there is a base level of competency that both need to have (to survive the battlefield), but the training and sensibilities vary greatly from there.

Could you list some differences?




Sure.  The big difference is that an enlisted man gets much more intense and much more specialized technical training than an officer.  This comes at the expense of a general lack of leadership training past the very rudiments in basic.  An officer by contrast is always been thrown into situations where they are 'in charge' over various tasks and groups along with their technical training which generally tends to be broader and more management based.  Essentially in the modern military, an officer is trained to be a low level manager while an enlistee is groomed to be a specialist and later on (as an NCO) what a civilian would call a foreman.

This is the general rule, but there are exceptions (the most notable is that of being a pilot either copter or fixed wing) but even with those exceptions, the core training is longer for an officer and contains far more leadership training.  Indeed an officer-cadet is frequently placed into leadership tasks over peple that have both more experience and technically superior rank.  This is done to teach the would-be officer how to work with groups and get them to accomplish tasks based on your own leadership and not on your rank and position.  There's more, but I'm sure that gives you an idea.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  There are other more specific things such as an officer is responsible for buying and maintaining his own gear including his own food while an enlisted man is not.  Also an officer has to follow a stricter and less forgiving version of the UCMJ than an enlisted man, and punishments are far harsher for an officer.  There is even a morals clause for 'officers only' (conduct unbecoming).  I could go on but I think you get the idea.

Edit PPS:  I almost forgot but this is important.  The real difference is that an officer (at least in the US) is has a commission from congress to act as the direct representative of the president (and an officer's oath of service reflects this difference) in their 'office' (hence the name).  This gives an officer certain legal rights and responsibilities that can not be done by enlistees (esp when dealing with discipline or handling money). 
Ok, let's play an RPG of an RPG.

I'll play forum moderator, and you guys play regular old forum posters.

So I'll reinforce grammar and spelling, and decide when posts should get deleted.  You'll all be BETTER OFF, so we'll all have more fun, right?

I'd be a lot more in favor of Warlord if it were included by popular vote, but all the people who voted for it would be banned from ever playing it.  I wonder how many people would vote for an Officer class if somebody else always got to be the officer.

As I said above, "As the Cleric is to the Priest, the Warlord is to the Student Council President."

In other words, "the annoying guy who didn't make Varsity but wants to tell everybody what to do anyway", wearing armor.

Off to work!  Cheers!

How you can complain about this when there are people who want this sort of hierarchical difference but far more severe in the Wizard class, I do not understand.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I'd be a lot more in favor of Warlord if it were included by popular vote, but all the people who voted for it would be banned from ever playing it.  I wonder how many people would vote for an Officer class if somebody else always got to be the officer.



Why do you act like all the people that want the Warlord want to outrank and boss around other players?


It's called a "strawman argument."
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Having served as both, I can attest that being a commissioned officer at least in a fairly modern army (or air force in my case) is a very different thing than being an enlisted man.  Yes, there is a base level of competency that both need to have (to survive the battlefield), but the training and sensibilities vary greatly from there.

Could you list some differences?




Sure.  The big difference is that an enlisted man gets much more intense and much more specialized technical training than an officer.  This comes at the expense of a general lack of leadership training past the very rudiments in basic.  An officer by contrast is always been thrown into situations where they are 'in charge' over various tasks and groups along with their technical training which generally tends to be broader and more management based.  Essentially in the modern military, an officer is trained to be a low level manager while an enlistee is groomed to be a specialist and later on (as an NCO) what a civilian would call a foreman.

This is the general rule, but there are exceptions (the most notable is that of being a pilot either copter or fixed wing) but even with those exceptions, the core training is longer for an officer and contains far more leadership training.  Indeed an officer-cadet is frequently placed into leadership tasks over peple that have both more experience and technically superior rank.  This is done to teach the would-be officer how to work with groups and get them to accomplish tasks based on your own leadership and not on your rank and position.  There's more, but I'm sure that gives you an idea.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  There are other more specific things such as an officer is responsible for buying and maintaining his own gear including his own food while an enlisted man is not.  Also an officer has to follow a stricter and less forgiving version of the UCMJ than an enlisted man, and punishments are far harsher for an officer.  There is even a morals clause for 'officers only' (conduct unbecoming).  I could go on but I think you get the idea. 




You see, though, those differences ammount to the same as the difference between a Wrestler, a Knight, a Gladiator, and Swashbuckler, to me.  A Soldier and an Officer fit in right amidst those.  You have different training, a different focus on what abilities and skills you've learned, but ultimately you're still focused on the game of Combat and use the Martial Arts as your tool for success. 


This is fundamentally different from a Rogue who takes an Expertise approach, a skill-based, rather than combat-training approach, and looks much more closely at what he or she can do beyond the realm of combat.  Monks are also different because they're Martial Arts + meditation/ki attacks.  Barbarians are different because they Rage and have the primal connection that links them up with the Ranger and the Druid.  Rangers and Paladins are different because of their secondary focus on spellcasting, and because Rangers are masters of exploration and monster slaying, while Paladins are oath-bound heroes of divinely magical virtue (or vice). 

Essentially, Monks, Barbarians, Rangers, and Paladins are all various tinkerings from Fighter or Rogue with magical layers added onto them, but Fighter is still the baseline for combat and martial arts, while Rogue is the baseline for skillful expertise.  Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, and Druid are extremely broad classes, as opposed to the much more focused (though still broad enough to contain various different build concepts) other classes.  Just as Rogue is broad enough to have both Treasure Hunters and Assassins, both Thief-Acrobats and hunting Scouts, Fighter is broad-enough to have both Commisioned Officers and front-line Soldiers, both enslaved (or recently-freed) Gladiators and questing Knights. 


Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

Similarly, the Warlord-as-Fighter lacks the option to create a "non-combatant combatant" type character, as you could (eventually) do with the Warlord.

If there were such a class in 5E, how would you see it's mechanics working. What would you call it-- Warlord? Tactician? Damsel? Joxer?

You mean the sort of "Lazy Warlord" who delegates his actions by granting attacks and doesn't do much, if anything, himself?

Sounds like an "Executive."

- Warlords! Join the 'Officer Country' Group! Join Grognards for 4e, the D&D that changed D&D.


D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium

Would warlord fans be as opposed to folding it into a different class if that class was Bard instead of fighter?

You see, though, those differences ammount to the same as the difference between a Wrestler, a Knight, a Gladiator, and Swashbuckler, to me.  A Soldier and an Officer fit in right amidst those.  You have different training, a different focus on what abilities and skills you've learned, but ultimately you're still focused on the game of Combat and use the Martial Arts as your tool for success. 



I disagree.  While anyone has to engage in some martial training just to survive the battlefield, the officer typically is far less individually skilled than his men in this area.  What the officer excells at is the tactical and strategic planning that wins battles and wars rather than skirmishes.  Not only that, but the officer is there to inspire (as are Sergeants but in a different way).  A solid officer whose men has faith in him (or her) can do things that no sane group of people can or should be able to do.  Good men with a poor officer often have dissapointing results in the reverse.

Is an officer a soldier?  Absolutely, but given how close many of the other classes are to each other (again Paladin and Cleric come to mind), I don't see any real reason why an officer/noble/warlord etc couldn't be a seperate class.  I note that scouts are soldiers too, but they are typically rogues rather than fighters.

-Polaris    
Anyway, there's already too much overlap between Clerics and Paladins.


  1. Make Divine casting more distinct from Arcane casting

  2. Lose the Cleric's martial abilities; make him a Divine caster.  Oh, and rename him "Priest".

  3. That gives the Paladin more elbow room to play the "divine fighter" role; effectively a hybrid between fighter and priest.

  4. Now create a series of Feats, that only fighters and paladins have access to, that let them function like the Warlord class.


Solved.



I can kinda get behind that. would rather just weaken the Cleric class and put it under a Preist class then roll Paladin into Fighter.
Would warlord fans be as opposed to folding it into a different class if that class was Bard instead of fighter?



That depends on if the Bard was expanded to realistically include the historical (or at least historically based) battle skald.  If so, I could see it maybe.

-Polaris
Would warlord fans be as opposed to folding it into a different class if that class was Bard instead of fighter?



I woulden't mind but to me it seems they are splitting the warlord.
The tactics part going to the fighter.
and the motivator part to the bard.

so the best way to re create a 4th editon warlord mignt be a fighter/bard multi class so you can chose to focus on motivation or tattics by how many levels you chose in each class. 
You see, though, those differences ammount to the same as the difference between a Wrestler, a Knight, a Gladiator, and Swashbuckler, to me.  A Soldier and an Officer fit in right amidst those.  You have different training, a different focus on what abilities and skills you've learned, but ultimately you're still focused on the game of Combat and use the Martial Arts as your tool for success.

What part of his discription shows "combat"?


A manager might manage a resturant.  That doesn't make him a cook.
A manager might manage a casino.  That doesn't make him a card shark.
A manager might manage an arena.  That doesn't make him a gladiator.
A manager might manage a truck company.  That doesn't make him a truck driver.
A manager might manage a fleet.  That doesn't make him a sailor.
A manager might manage a factory.  That doesn't make him an assembler.
A manager might manage a brothel.  That doesn't make him a hore.
ect... 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

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