Feel free to call me clueless.I'm wondering where I might find information on hybrid class rules and multiclass rules for Essentials characters. Do they possibly exist somewhere, or do I need to make them up? If I need to make them up, then I'm won

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Feel free to call me clueless.

I'm wondering where I might find information on hybrid class rules and multiclass rules for Essentials characters.  Do they possibly exist somewhere, or do I need to make them up?  If I need to make them up, then I'm wondering how any of you have done it (assuming that any of you have done it).

Thanks all for the help!
you can see the source in the online compendium

hybrids for Sentinel, Blackguard, Cavalier, Vampire and Binder were in Dragon 402, executioner assassin was in 400.  the other classes you would have to make up.

multiclassing into the E-classes is in the same Dragons, mostly.  MCing an E-Class into a different class is... well, all over:  Dragons, PHBs, X Power books, etc.
 

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Well, here's my take on the Hybrid Fighter (Knight):

********


Hybrid Fighter (Knight)



You start with the following powers:



Defender Aura: This power works exactly as described in Heroes of the Fallen Lands, p. 129.



Battle Guardian: This power works exactly as described in Heroes of the Fallen Lands, p. 129, except that you can use it only once per encounter.



Stances: You start with your choice of one stance from the list in Heroes of the Fallen Lands, pp. 130 – 132. They work exactly as described in those pages.



Power Strike: If you do not take a 1st level encounter attack power from your other hybrid class, you qualify to take the Power Strike power. It operates exactly as described in Heroes of the Fallen Lands, p. 132. Alternatively, you may choose a 1st level encounter fighter attack power from the Player's Handbook, Martial Power, or Martial Power 2 or any appropriate Dragon magazine article.



Starting Hit Points: 7.5


Hit Points per level: 3


Healing Surges: 4.5


Bonus to Defenses: +1 to Fortitude



Hybrid Talent Options



Weapon Talent: You gain the weapon talent feature. It works exactly as described in Heroes of the Fallen Lands, p. 129.



Shield Finesse: You gain the Shield Finesse feature. It works exactly as described in Heroes of the Fallen Lands, p. 129.



Knight's Armor Proficiency: You gain proficiency with cloth, leather, hide, chainmail, scale, plate; light shield, heavy shield.



********
Questions? Comments?
 If I need to make them up, then I'm wondering how any of you have done it (assuming that any of you have done it).

Since the main selling point of most E-classes is simplicity (and hybrids ain't simple), and the less simple ones' powers are usually available to the 'parent' class, I'd just use the parent class hybrid, and swap in E-powers.

 

 

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This is true.  However, there are certain aspects of the Essentials fighter that don't quite mesh with 4E, such as the Defender Aura.

Regarding fighters, I think that Essentials got it right for them.  Daily Powers, for example really don't have a place for martial classes.  The other power sources do, as I can understand one's most powerful power being erased from their mind until after an extended rest.  But martial daily powers?  Not quite.  The only exception to that would be the Warlord (Marshall).  Daily powers could be recognized as signature tactics, usable only once per day to keep the enemy from becoming too familiar with them.

As for substituting fighter encounter attack powers for Power Strike, I would look on them as "signature moves", something the fighter knows how to do well, but it takes a lot of energy to do.

True, hybrids "ain't simple", but Essentials has some things that work better than 4E, imho.  I'm trying to integrate it into a workable system, as Next does NOT impress me.
Essentials is just extra content for 4e, it is in no way separate. 
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
I understand that.  However, the mechanics for the knight and the slayer are a bit different than those of the traditional fighter.  The way I see it, one would trade out the daily fighter powers in exchange for gaining extra stances.  Sounds reasonable to me.
This is true.  However, there are certain aspects of the Essentials fighter that don't quite mesh with 4E, such as the Defender Aura.



First:  You appear to think "Essentials" and "4E" are different games or that they are incompatible.

This is wrong.

They are neither.

The Defender Aura is different from Marking, and works differently, but that's okay.  There's a very small number of things that affect Marks, and some of them are trivial fixes (monsters that get damage bonuses against people who Mark them?  Easy change to also affect Defender Auras) and some of them shouldn't be fixed. (The Fighter feat that makes his Marks -3?  Doesn't need to matter for Knights.  That's an upside of being a Weaponmaster.)

Regarding fighters, I think that Essentials got it right for them. 



The Essentials Fighters are boring to play in a way that the original Fighter wasn't.  I love that the option exists, and I'm very glad I don't have to use it - because Weaponmaster-Fighters are fun and interesting to play, which the Fighter had never before been.

Daily Powers, for example really don't have a place for martial classes.  The other power sources do, as I can understand one's most powerful power being erased from their mind until after an extended rest.  But martial daily powers?  Not quite.  The only exception to that would be the Warlord (Marshall).  Daily powers could be recognized as signature tactics, usable only once per day to keep the enemy from becoming too familiar with them.



It would be smarter to think of Dailies as something that you can't always do because the time isn't right.  The fact that you-the-player *choose* when the enemy slips up enough to allow your biggest hit is a narrative conceit.  And there's no particular reason magic *should* be "once a day".
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True, hybrids "ain't simple", but Essentials has some things that work better than 4E, imho.  I'm trying to integrate it into a workable system, as Next does NOT impress me.



Again, "Essentials" and "4E" are not different games, nor are they incompatible.

And the purpose of the Knight and the Slayer is to provide a bog-simple Basic Attacks Only version of the 4E Fighter who never has to care about anything that happened before - he can look at the current situation and know immediately what his options are. And that works, perfectly well.  And making them a Hybrid defeats that entirely.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Well, here's my take on the Hybrid Fighter (Knight):

********

Battle Guardian: This power works exactly as described in Heroes of the Fallen Lands, p. 129, except that you can use it only once per encounter.




Mark Punishment as an Encounter power?  You're done, game over, stop right there, this build sucks.

(As an Immediate, maybe.  But then you've defeated BOTH purposes of building a knight:  You've already lost "simplicity" by making a Hybrid, and by making mark punishment an Immediate defeats the "you never have to remember when a previous thing happened" factor.)
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
That's what power cards are for, whether you purchase them or make them yourself (infinitely cheaper to make them yourself, and you can make them as fancy or plain as you want).

Besides, this is the HYBRID version of the knight.  There's always going to be a trade-off in terms of powers.  PHB 3 made that abundantly clear

If I came across that I thought Essentials and 4e were completely different, I apologize.  However, I do recognize when mechanics of a particular class differ from one setting to another.  I'm just trying to accomodate that.  I already allow for Power Strike to be traded out for fighter encounter powers of the appropriate level (signature moves), especially if a player opts for a particular martial style (Arkhosian Fang, etc).
That's what power cards are for, whether you purchase them or make them yourself (infinitely cheaper to make them yourself, and you can make them as fancy or plain as you want)..



How will a power card make "This Defender can't Defender" better?

Besides, this is the HYBRID version of the knight.  There's always going to be a trade-off in terms of powers.  PHB 3 made that abundantly clear



There's power tradeoff, and then there's "worse at the role than a multiclass"

A Defender who can only do Defender Things once an encounter is not a Defender.  No, not even a Hybrid one.  Take a look, for comparison, at all the other Hybrid Defenders.

However, I do recognize when mechanics of a particular class differ from one setting to another. 



This is not the mechanics of a class "differing from one setting to another".

This is a completely new build on a prior class, that happens to use different mechanics.  Like how there's a bunch of rules that only apply to Beastmaster Rangers, or how Whirling Barbarians get different class features from Ragebloods, or how Berserkers get class features to make them a Defender sometimes.

There's no need to try to "reconcile" them, because they don't conflict.

I'm just trying to accomodate that.  I already allow for Power Strike to be traded out for fighter encounter powers of the appropriate level (signature moves), especially if a player opts for a particular martial style (Arkhosian Fang, etc).



... so, you're already giving the Martial Cross Training feat, repeatedly, for free?

Your houserules are bad and unbalanced and unbalancing, and you don't appear to understand why that is.  You should stop houseruling until you understand how things work.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Then how would you do it?

Please enlighten me.  Help me see what's wrong with my basic premise, and how I might make it work.  Your thoughtfulness is much appreciated.
Then how would you do it?

Please enlighten me.  Help me see what's wrong with my basic premise, and how I might make it work.  Your thoughtfulness is much appreciated.



My first thought would be:  "What am I hoping to accomplish here?"  And the answer to that is, uh, nothing.  I can't think of something useful I would get out of this.

The purpose of the Knight and Slayer is to provide a simpler, less-mechanically-complicated version of a Fighter for people who want to just care about current situations and be a Defender who hits things with a sword, and for people who want to only care about current situations and be a Striker who hits things with an axe.

That's the ENTIRE purpose of the Knight and the Slayer, and of the Thief and the Hunter and the Sentinel and I'm sure I'm forgetting one but those classes exist for the EXPRESS purpose of providing decent builds with fewer options, for players who want fewer options.

Players who want more options?  Can and should play a Weaponmaster.  Or Rogue.  Or Ranger.  Or Druid.

And the simplified classes are not intended to replace or update the earlier classes.  They're intended to provide alternatives to them, for people who want those alternatives.

Hybriding them defeats the purpose of those alternatives.  So my first suggestion for "Hybrid Knight" would be "play a Hybrid Fighter instead".  If your players are bored with Power Strike and want Fighter encounter powers, they should either take the Feat that gives them a Fighter encounter power in place of power strike, or rebuild as a Weaponmaster (and you as DM should let them rebuild).

"Hybrid Knight" serves no purpose and accomplishes no design goals.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Thanks for the help...I think...

Undecided
multiclass gives you a once per encounter mark punishment, hybrid needs to allow functionality beyond that, otherwise you could just MC Cavalier if you wanted a defender aura and 1/enc punishment, and when cavalier is invoked as a comparative then you know things are bad

Shield Finesse would be out for Hybrid Talent, its not a feature, its a bonus feat and nobody would waste their hybrid feat on getting a regular feat that has no requirements

you would have to leave Battle Guardian as is, it still couldn't stack with marks from the other half of the hybrid since a mark overrides defender aura, so it would still be balanced
Thanks for the help...I think...



What do *you* think you're accomplishing with "Hybrid Knight"?  What design space does that occupy?  Who do you think is your target player?

Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
you would have to leave Battle Guardian as is, it still couldn't stack with marks from the other half of the hybrid since a mark overrides defender aura, so it would still be balanced



Nope.  Because Opportunity Battle Guardian wouldn't stack with another Hybrid Defender, sure, but it WOULD stack with a Hybrid Striker.

Getting full-on Defender Aura and Opportunity-MBA on a THIEF or a WARLOCK or anyone else with a good MBA?  That's just mean.

Immediate Battle Guardian isn't much better, since BG doesn't often trigger more than once a round.  But it's better.  And it's better than "Once an encounter I am a Defender, ish"
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Well, you still have the stances in the at-will status, or did you possibly miss that (I miss things, too, I'm human).
Well, you still have the stances in the at-will status, or did you possibly miss that (I miss things, too, I'm human).



Knight Stances do not a Defender make.  At all.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
its pretty pointless, the only point in it existing at all that I could think of was to combo it with a good mba class for the other half so taking that away really takes everything away, which don't bother me none, just trying to find a viable way to do what it is he wants
its pretty pointless, the only point in it existing at all that I could think of was to combo it with a good mba class for the other half so taking that away really takes everything away, which don't bother me none, just trying to find a viable way to do what it is he wants



Giving full-on Battle Guardian with an MBA-Striker breaks things, though, in the same way that "you could take Power Strike, or you could take Rain Of Blows, your choice, no cost" breaks things.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
its pretty pointless, the only point in it existing at all that I could think of was to combo it with a good mba class for the other half so taking that away really takes everything away, which don't bother me none, just trying to find a viable way to do what it is he wants



Giving full-on Battle Guardian with an MBA-Striker breaks things, though, in the same way that "you could take Power Strike, or you could take Rain Of Blows, your choice, no cost" breaks things.



well I am not using it, but these things don't seem to bother the OP Cool but I suppose you're right and I should avoid enabling, I'm no fan of house rules for their own sake
What about making Battle Guardian only work v shift?

So if the enemy moves away, shifts away, or makes a ranged or area attack, you get an OA. If they attack one of your buddies in melee/close, you get nothing and are sad that you aren't a full defender. You can combo it with a MBA striker, but you still don't get full defenderiness.

The "you could take Power Strike, or you could take Rain of Blows" thing is definitely in line with the other Essentials hybrids, for better or worse. In general they seem kind of half-assed.   
This is true.  However, there are certain aspects of the Essentials fighter that don't quite mesh with 4E, such as the Defender Aura.

You could swap the Defender Aura for Combat Challenge and call it a wash.  Likewise, you could swap stances for at-wills with no major issues.

Regarding fighters, I think that Essentials got it right for them.  Daily Powers, for example really don't have a place for martial classes.  The other power sources do, as I can understand one's most powerful power being erased from their mind until after an extended rest. But martial daily powers?  Not quite.  The only exception to that would be the Warlord (Marshall).  Daily powers could be recognized as signature tactics, usable only once per day to keep the enemy from becoming too familiar with them.

I'm sure more than a few Rogue and Ranger powers could also be seen that way - as tricks that aren't going to work a second time.  The Reliable keyword also mitigates objections to martial dailies - you can't, in fact, use the power only once, as you can attempt it several times (works nicely with the 'focus' and 'opportunities' rationales that follow).

There's probably a rationale that you'd find acceptable for any given martial daily - whether it's needing to keep the technique 'secret,' being based on exploiting a rare opportunity, being physically exhausting, requiring intense focus that can only be attained and held briefly, or whatever - and it's worth finding those rationales, because having dailies puts martial characters in the same ballbark as everyone else.  Without 'em, they're just grindy damage machines - especially when their encounters are reduced to extra-damage-tag-ons.

As for substituting fighter encounter attack powers for Power Strike, I would look on them as "signature moves", something the fighter knows how to do well, but it takes a lot of energy to do.

True, hybrids "ain't simple", but Essentials has some things that work better than 4E, imho.  I'm trying to integrate it into a workable system, as Next does NOT impress me.

You should be able to start with the Hybrid Fighter.  Swap in Essentials Aura in place of Combat Challenge and Power Strikes in place of Encounters.  You could also play a little fast-and-loose with the hybrid rules and use only non-martial dailies in hybrid builds.   Or, you could just be careful about finding acceptable rationales for dailies before aproving them.

 

 

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