Thespian's stage?

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Alright, so I'm rather new to the game, and some cards text don't make clear sense to me. One such card is Thespian's Stage. I really need help on this card's text and ability. When you copy a land with this card, does it gain that land's ability? For example: If I used Thespian's stage on the card Terramorphic Expanse, would my Thespian's stage now have the ability that reads "Sacrifice Terramorphic Expanse: Search your library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield tapped. Then shuffle your library." ? And if it does copy the ability, then Thespian's stage would then be treated as though it was Terramorphic? Please someone HALP :O
It will get all abilities printed on the land it's copying. When a card uses its own name, it just means "this object". So in order to activate the Thespian's Stage-copying-Terramorphic Expanse's ability, you'd tap the Stage and sacrifice the Stage.
It will get all abilities printed on the land it's copying. When a card uses its own name, it just means "this object". So in order to activate the Thespian's Stage-copying-Terramorphic Expanse's ability, you'd tap the Stage and sacrifice the Stage.

Thank you for this! I was pretty sure that is how it worked but I didn't want to impliment it then be wrong. Thanks again!
in order to activate the Thespian's Stage-copying-Terramorphic Expanse's ability, you'd tap the Stage and sacrifice the Stage.


Excdpt that, by that time, its name will have changed to "Terramorphic Expanse." You will in fact be sacrificing a Terramorphic Expanse.

Rules Advisor

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

When you have something coping something else it gets all its copiable characteristics which are, to simplify things, anything that is PRINTED on it.

So you'll get a terramorphic expanse which will have the ability granted by thespian's ability in ADDITION to what's printed on a terramorphic expanse.

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

in order to activate the Thespian's Stage-copying-Terramorphic Expanse's ability, you'd tap the Stage and sacrifice the Stage.


Excdpt that, by that time, its name will have changed to "Terramorphic Expanse." You will in fact be sacrificing a Terramorphic Expanse.





While true, even if it were copied by an ability that explicitly doesn't copy the name (imagine a land version of Lazav, Dimir Mastermind), it would still have a functional "Sacrifice itself for this effect", despite the fact that the name of the card being sacced would not actually be the name referenced by the ability.


Lazav, Dimir Mastermind copying Mogg Fanatic would not be named Mogg Fanatic, but it could still sacrifice itself to its own "Sacrifice Mogg Fanatic" ability.  Same would be true of a theoretical land-copier that retains its own name, that were able to copy Terramorphic Expanse without being named Terrramorphic Expanse..


(I think.  Having a little trouble finding a relevant rulebook citation.)
That's right. The relevant rule is 201.4.
That's right. The relevant rule is 201.4.



Aha, thanks.  I did a text search for the word "itself" because I expected the relevant rule would contain that word, but it in fact does not.
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind copying Mogg Fanatic would not be named Mogg Fanatic, but it could still sacrifice itself to its own "Sacrifice Mogg Fanatic" ability.


In that case Lazav would have the ability: "Sacrifice Lazav: it deals 1"

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

we had that discussion before
there is nothing in the rules that will change the text, it's just being interpreted as "this object", no matter what it says
proud member of the 2011 community team
we had that discussion before
there is nothing in the rules that will change the text, it's just being interpreted as "this object", no matter what it says


Oh?

Seems strange...

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

It only seems strange if you think about it too hard. Every card that refers to itself without using "card named..." just means "This object" so the actual words in the ability are completely irrelevant in all cases. Does it change anything if Lazav says "Sacrifice Mogg Fanatic:" or "Sacrifice Lazav" or "Sacrifice this object" if they all mean the same thing according to the rules? :P

The development team feels it reads better to use the name of the object you expect the ability to appear on most of the time, so that's how they write them. Just mentally errata every self-reference to "this object" instead and you'll never get the wrong answer. 

Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

It only seems strange if you think about it too hard. Every card that refers to itself without using "card named..." just means "This object" so the actual words in the ability are completely irrelevant in all cases. Does it change anything if Lazav says "Sacrifice Mogg Fanatic:" or "Sacrifice Lazav" or "Sacrifice this object" if they all mean the same thing according to the rules? :P

The development team feels it reads better to use the name of the object you expect the ability to appear on most of the time, so that's how they write them. Just mentally errata every self-reference to "this object" instead and you'll never get the wrong answer. 


No, no, what I feel strange about is what is the TEXT on it, is it adapted when it copies or is it really the name of the card it's copying.

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

Oh, I know. I'm saying "Does it matter?" :P  Technically, the text remains unchanged, but it has the same meaning regardless. So Lazav has an ability that says "Sacrifice Mogg Fanatic: Mogg Fanatic deals 1 damage to target creature or player." But that ability means "Sacrifice {this}: {This} deals 1 damage to target creature or player." Which is exactly what it meant when it was on Mogg Fanatic, too.

Nothing can interact with the rules text's self-reference (aside from removing all abilities), so it really doesn't matter if the ability says "Sacrifice your firstborn child" if that really means "Sacrifice {this}" regardless. ;)

Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

Oh, I know. I'm saying "Does it matter?" :P  Technically, the text remains unchanged, but it has the same meaning regardless. So Lazav has an ability that says "Sacrifice Mogg Fanatic: Mogg Fanatic deals 1 damage to target creature or player." But that ability means "Sacrifice {this}: {This} deals 1 damage to target creature or player." Which is exactly what it meant when it was on Mogg Fanatic, too.

Nothing can interact with the rules text's self-reference (aside from removing all abilities), so it really doesn't matter if the ability says "Sacrifice your firstborn child" if that really means "Sacrifice {this}" regardless. ;)


...

Would be much cleaner if it said "Sacrifice this permanent".

One of the slivers actually grant such an ability...

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

Sure, it might be cleaner to some people. Like I said, it's a style choice for WotC, and they prefer the template to use the name of the object the ability is expected to appear on. For the sliver, there's no one object it's expected to appear on, so they used that wording instead.

If they decided to use the "this {thing}" template, there would be debate about when to use "this creature" vs. "this permanent" vs. "this card" vs. "this object" (the worst one since "object" is just a little too obscure for most players).

In other words, no matter what WotC does, someone will find a way they think it would be better. ;) 

Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

The use of the card's name is part of the whole "pretend the card is written in English" thing. Always using the phrase "this [something]" might be more technically accurate, but it would read a lot worse.

Also, right now, all of the abilities can use the same term (the name). Unless they bit the bullet and started using "this object", they'd need to use different terms depending on what zone the ability operates from: "this permanent", "this spell", and "this card".
Also, right now, all of the abilities can use the same term (the name). Unless they bit the bullet and started using "this object", they'd need to use different terms depending on what zone the ability operates from: "this permanent", "this spell", and "this card".

But you cannot sacrifice a card in hand or discard a permanent... so the ability would either read "sacrifice this permanent" or "discard this card".

No need to use "this object". Besides it'd make it clearer that you sacrifice permanents and discard cards. This often gets mixed up too I saw.

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

The general "Card referring to itself by name" issue goes far beyond just discards and sacrifices.  Agoraphobia and Gangrenous Goliath both refer to themselves by name in a "Return ~ to your hand" phrase - though one only works while it is a permanent and one only works while it is NOT a permanent.
I just think Terra Stomper is better as is than if it said "This spell can't be countered." It's always called Terra Stomper, but it's not always a spell. The proposed wording sounds like it's saying "This is a spell and it can't be countered", which isn't true most of the time.

Also, there are cards like Bant Sojourners with abilities that trigger from different zones. They can currently just use the pronoun "it" since it's still Bant Sojourners either way.
I just think Terra Stomper is better as is than if it said "This spell can't be countered." It's always called Terra Stomper, but it's not always a spell. The proposed wording sounds like it's saying "This is a spell and it can't be countered", which isn't true most of the time.


What about "This card can't be countered"? As in, as a spell on the stack it is represented by a card, it is a spell card on the stack.

This works I think... well, this would... :P

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

They don't use the term "card" when referring to spells, though. Also, a copy of Volcanic Fallout can't be countered, but it's not a card.
They don't use the term "card" when referring to spells, though. Also, a copy of Volcanic Fallout can't be countered, but it's not a card.


Yeah, got me there...

"This" could become a form of keyword meaning "this object/card/spell/permanent" though. But yeah, whatever.

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

So, to double check this strategy I've devised with Thespian's Stage. If I was to run a Maze deck when Dragon's maze drops, I could use Thespian's Stage on Maze's End and in doing so, I would techinically have 2 Maze's end on the field, right? Thespian would gain the ability of Maze's End where I could return it to my hand in order to search out a guildgate. And it would also have the effect of it being on the field, "counting" as a Maze's End for all 10 Guild gates being on the field for the instant win. Correct?
The win condition on Maze's End is only checked when its activated ability resolves. It's not a static ability. Otherwise, you're right. Thespian's Stage will be exactly like Maze's End except it will also have the copy ability.
Rules Advisor
The win condition on Maze's End is only checked when its activated ability resolves. It's not a static ability. Otherwise, you're right. Thespian's Stage will be exactly like Maze's End except it will also have the copy ability.

That's what i mean. Thespian would still count as Maze's end when i use the 3 tap ability to reutrn it to my hand. So end a combo by using Maze's end to get my 9th gate, and win the game by thespian getting my 10th gate right?
Correct.
Rules Advisor
Yes and no.

Winning with 10 gates is part of the activted ability resolving, Mazes End does not have to still be on the board.

If you have 9 gates, and activate Mazes End to fetch the 10th, you will win. You do not need the Thespian/ME copy.  In fact, it hurts you. If the Thespian had copied a Gate instead of Mazes End, you would have won last turn.
Yes and no.

Winning with 10 gates is part of the activted ability resolving, Mazes End does not have to still be on the board.

If you have 9 gates, and activate Mazes End to fetch the 10th, you will win. You do not need the Thespian/ME copy.  In fact, it hurts you. If the Thespian had copied a Gate instead of Mazes End, you would have won last turn.


Only if your opponent had the tenth Gate (Note the "with different names").
Rules Advisor
(Note the "with different names").



Did *not* notice that. Thanks
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