MADness for all!

IMO, Every class should want every ability score.  That's somewhat unlikely, but we can at least reduce the number of dump stats with a little creatitivity.


Something like...

Monk:
Str - Bonus Damage
Int - crit bonus if you can identify viatal spots.


Paladin:
Wis - spells
Cha - Aura

Barbarian:
Wis - Inititive bonus
Cha - Shouts

Wizard:
Str - Bonus damage to evocation spells.
Wis - Bonus durration to summoning spells.
Cha - Bonus DC to illusion spells.


Why?  
1) Because you shouldn't feel bad making a charasmiatic fighter, or a wise barbarian.
2) It gives you choices.  If you want a monk who does lot's of damage, pick up Str and Int.  If you want a monk who's more defensive, add more Con or Wis.
3) More even balance of stats vs feats.  A fighter getting +1 Str is alot different then getting +1 to cha, and the feats can't be blanced against both.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

+1
Their called saving throws...they come against any and every ability score.  at least a +1 in all is preferrable, and a negative in any is truly detrimental.
Every stat should be important for every class.  Why accept the existence of even a single dump stat?


Stats are still going to be ranked by importance (no matter how much work you do, a wizard is still going to care about int more than they do about str).  But once people accept that they can't be amazing at everything, character creation becomes vastly more interesting.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
Their called saving throws...they come against any and every ability score.  at least a +1 in all is preferrable, and a negative in any is truly detrimental.

Saving throws help, but they don't show up often enough to make it really worth while.

And why is negative truely detramental?

+1 vs +3 is just as big of a difference as -1 to +1 is.... 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Every stat should be important for every class.  Why accept the existence of even a single dump stat?

If you can think of enough things without being contrived, sure.

Got a reason why paladins should care about Int?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Every stat should be important for every class.  Why accept the existence of even a single dump stat?



Yeah. If you hate every wizard having max intelligence, the obvious answers is to make them want more than one stat. The smart wizard may have a lot of slots, the dex wizard may be good at aiming spells, the charismatic wizard might be good at breaching spell resistance, etc.

I'd like to see a variety of things like that, so that a character isn't as dependent on one stat.

I already end up wanting every stat for every class.  Not for combat necessarily, but for skills and role-playing.  
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
+1.

I particularly like Wis to initiative. I think this could apply to the Ranger as well.

I have always thought that the fighter needed an Int-dependant Knight subclass. Something to represent skill at arms as a result of education -- reading fighting manuels, training with a master at arms, etc. Maybe Int to inititaive for the fighter, or to maneuvers.

Then you could create a fighter subclass that represents soldiers, sellswords, etc which is Wis reliant instead. 
Every stat should be important for every class.  Why accept the existence of even a single dump stat?


Yeah. If you hate every wizard having max intelligence, the obvious answers is to make them want more than one stat. The smart wizard may have a lot of slots, the dex wizard may be good at aiming spells, the charismatic wizard might be good at breaching spell resistance, etc.



Hmm, ok...I do like this approach though.  I've argued the same thing (analagously) about weapons: weapon A shouldn't be clearly better than weapon B: everything should have a trade-off.

I guess the current system is, "After I max out my primary stat, the other ones all have uses."  But more incentive to not just max out your primary stat (particularly when using the point allocation generation system) is compelling.

"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
I already end up wanting every stat for every class.  Not for combat necessarily, but for skills and role-playing.  



Right -- and there is nothing wrong with that. I would genuinely enjoy the game more if all of my players had this kind of mentality.

But why not encourage it mechanically? Why not provide more tools for character-customization that don't force people to make "wrong" min-maxing decisions?

edit: just saw your reply to another post, maybe you agree and I misread the post of yours that I quotes. 
+1.

I particularly like Wis to initiative. I think this could apply to the Ranger as well.

I have always thought that the fighter needed an Int-dependant Knight subclass. Something to represent skill at arms as a result of education -- reading fighting manuels, training with a master at arms, etc. Maybe Int to inititaive for the fighter, or to maneuvers.

Then you could create a fighter subclass that represents soldiers, sellswords, etc which is Wis reliant instead. 

If fighter is eating the warlord, that's pretty much covered.

And yea.  Ranger would need a few things as well.  Though he already has Wis for spell casting.

Ranger.
Int - tracking, herbal healing.
Cha - animal compainion.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

+1.

I particularly like Wis to initiative. I think this could apply to the Ranger as well.

I have always thought that the fighter needed an Int-dependant Knight subclass. Something to represent skill at arms as a result of education -- reading fighting manuels, training with a master at arms, etc. Maybe Int to inititaive for the fighter, or to maneuvers.

Then you could create a fighter subclass that represents soldiers, sellswords, etc which is Wis reliant instead. 

If fighter is eating the warlord, that's pretty much covered.

And yea.  Ranger would need a few things as well.  Though he already has Wis for spell casting.

Ranger.
Int - tracking, herbal healing.
Cha - animal compainion.



Yeah, if the fighter eats the warlord I imagine we can expect Int to matter. I suppose what I'm really concerned about is seeing that Int is mechanically relevant to fighters who don't consider themselves strategic-commanders or inspiring leaders.
I had an idea a while back to give every class three base combat abilities from the get go with later class features doing what they do normally and each of base features using at least two attributes (usually a physical and mental stat). It'd also make multiclassing much simpler since any class combination could be effective. A Wizard/Fighter would play differently than either class but wouldn't be incompatible by any means as they generally have been in the past. If you were a high intelligence Wizard that multi-classed into Fighter you'd maybe have more options at your disposal but if you're a high strength Fighter that learns some wizardry you'd probably end up with a better ability to control your spells.

Fighter
Maneuvers: Singular attacks like Whirlwind Attack or Tide of Iron.
- Constitution for how many maneuvers you can use before having to take an action to catch your breath and regain them. Probably Con-10 for maximum and Con mod for how many you regain for an action so a 15 con fighter could use 5 maneuvers before having to catch his breath but would only gain back 2 uses for it while a 20 con fighter would have 10 max uses and gain back 5 uses per breath catching.
- Intelligence mod for how many maneuvers are learned when you learn maneuvers. Every five levels probably since you'll also be getting stances and strikes.

Stances: Provide more passive benefits and can be switched with half your movement. Each stance provides a powerful maneuver that immediately ends the stance and imposes some sort of status effect on the user after the fact.
- Charisma for the effectiveness of the stance (tricky footwork and what not).
- Strength for the effectiveness of stance breaking attacks. Or rather more to mitigate any penalties a stance breaking stances.

Strikes: Strikes are are follow-up attacks tacked on to a normal attack or maneuver. They would replace the current idea of surges.
- Dexterity would determine how many Strike Points you got every turn. I like Dex score-10 to make odd ability scores useful. More powerful strikes would cost more points so you'd have to decide if you wanted to dump them all in to a powerful follow-up attack, falling back in to a defensive position, or several quick strikes to one or more foes.
- Wisdom determines the effectiveness of strikes as it allows a watchful fighter to see the openings in an opponent's style.

A balanced Fighter would make as much sense and have more options and combos available as a high dex/cha fighter or a str/con Fighter but the focused stat fighers would have more raw power.

If people are interested I have ideas like this for every class.

Yeah, if the fighter eats the warlord I imagine we can expect Int to matter. I suppose what I'm really concerned about is seeing that Int is mechanically relevant to fighters who don't consider themselves strategic-commanders or inspiring leaders.



If they go back to fighters with actual manuevers as class abilities instead of the lame manuever-feats, then intelligence can just give you more manuevers.

The smart fighter knows more techniques. Pretty logical and simple.
The idea of a dump stat needs to be turned into sacred hamburger.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
The idea of a dump stat needs to be turned into sacred hamburger.



Sadly it's a matter of one sacred cow encouraging another. The simple fact is that 6 ability scores is just too many, so it's hard to give every ability score something special about it that everyone wants.

Further the idea that strength helps you hit and damage really limits things a lot. Simply subdividing dexterity into accuracy and strength into damage would go a ways to making fighter types a lot less one dimensional.

Merging wisdom and charisma, or wisdom/intelligence would also help quite a bit. But the game is a bit too bound by tradition for tradition's sake.
I don't think you want to make every stat equal for all characters, but if every class had 2-3 stats that mattered equally  it would encourage more diversity. Paladin is a good example: if you take 17 strength and 14 charisma you're saying, "I'm a good fighter, and I've got some of that divinity stuff going for me as well".  And if you take 17 charisma and 14 strength you're saying, "Primarily I'm a shining beacon of hope, but I'm decent at swinging a sword, too."

I don't know for absolutely sure if the current paladin works equally with either approach, but it should.  And every other class should have the same options.

E.g., a rogue who maxes out Charisma could be just as viable as one that maxes out Dex.  (Oh, wait, that's a Bard...)
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk

E.g., a rogue who maxes out Charisma could be just as viable as one that maxes out Dex.  (Oh, wait, that's a Bard...)



I think we could blend a lot of archetypes by allowing different stats to work with different characters. A warlord might just be a fighter with high charisma for instance, so he gets a bunch of good charisma abilities.

E.g., a rogue who maxes out Charisma could be just as viable as one that maxes out Dex.  (Oh, wait, that's a Bard...)



I think we could blend a lot of archetypes by allowing different stats to work with different characters. A warlord might just be a fighter with high charisma for instance, so he gets a bunch of good charisma abilities.



Yes, I very much concur.  Maybe not this exact example (god knows I want to avoid a Warlord fight) but I support this principle.  Don't build a character class where some tweaking and role-playing will suffice.
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk
I still say that the best way to encourage variety in attributes is to make them count less. Instead of trying to balance a strong fighter with +5 damage against a quick fighter with +5 accuracy and an inspiring fighter with +5 warlordliness, just remove the contibution to battle stats so that you have a strong fighter who is good at climbing/swimming/breaking or a quick fighter who is good at tumbling/balancing/juggling or a charismatic fighter who is good at diplomacy/negotiation/intimidation.

Let the class carry all of the class-mandated features.

The metagame is not the game.


Yeah, if the fighter eats the warlord I imagine we can expect Int to matter. I suppose what I'm really concerned about is seeing that Int is mechanically relevant to fighters who don't consider themselves strategic-commanders or inspiring leaders.



If they go back to fighters with actual manuevers as class abilities instead of the lame manuever-feats, then intelligence can just give you more manuevers.

The smart fighter knows more techniques. Pretty logical and simple.



Although I'm typically against using an attribute to derive how many of something you get (think skills per level in 3.5) I think this works a lot. I'd like to see more than just this but I think this is a great way to get Int in there for starters.

+1

 
I'd rather go in exactly the opposite direction to achieve the same goal. Don't force people to do advance calculus to figure their stat investment. Make stats boost much flatter.-1 for 3-7, +1 for 12-16, +2 17-20. Pumping your main stat, whichever it is, isn't so imortant you can't invest in whatever other stat you want. And at the same time the penalty for the off stats you don't have resources is much lower as well. 

Encourage people to put the stats where they want without forcing them to think hard about it. 
The idea of a dump stat needs to be turned into sacred hamburger.



Sadly it's a matter of one sacred cow encouraging another. The simple fact is that 6 ability scores is just too many, so it's hard to give every ability score something special about it that everyone wants.

Further the idea that strength helps you hit and damage really limits things a lot. Simply subdividing dexterity into accuracy and strength into damage would go a ways to making fighter types a lot less one dimensional.

Merging wisdom and charisma, or wisdom/intelligence would also help quite a bit. But the game is a bit too bound by tradition for tradition's sake.



I agree to a point, but using Dex for accuracy makes it even more of a god-stat.
I'd rather go in exactly the opposite direction to achieve the same goal. Don't force people to do advance calculus to figure their stat investment. Make stats boost much flatter.-1 for 3-7, +1 for 12-16, +2 17-20. Pumping your main stat, whichever it is, isn't so imortant you can't invest in whatever other stat you want. And at the same time the penalty for the off stats you don't have resources is much lower as well. 

Encourage people to put the stats where they want without forcing them to think hard about it. 



I could get behind this too. For me, I want to avoid a system that encourages min-maxing by making certain choices "right" and "wrong."

I don't want players to feel bad for playing a charismatic Barbarian. Smaller bonuses seems to handle that just fine for me. 


Merging wisdom and charisma, or wisdom/intelligence would also help quite a bit. But the game is a bit too bound by tradition for tradition's sake.


I would merge wisdom with both charisma and intelligence

The perception part of wisdom could go to intelligence (think of Sherlock Holmes, seeing the clues is one thing, knowing how to interpret them is the other)
and the willpower/insight part could go to charisma (since willpower and confidence/ego often go hand in hand, that makes some sense)
You would end up with 2 mental abilities: one that is intellectual, perceptive, witty and cunning. Perfect for wizards 
the other is the will, personality, sense of self, Ki, soul and spirit, fueling monks, clerics, paladins.
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com
I still say that the best way to encourage variety in attributes is to make them count less. Instead of trying to balance a strong fighter with +5 damage against a quick fighter with +5 accuracy and an inspiring fighter with +5 warlordliness, just remove the contibution to battle stats so that you have a strong fighter who is good at climbing/swimming/breaking or a quick fighter who is good at tumbling/balancing/juggling or a charismatic fighter who is good at diplomacy/negotiation/intimidation.

Let the class carry all of the class-mandated features.


I like this concept of class design.

One way I've been thinking about it in the past is that each class has a main stat that gets advanced by levelling in the class, and get to roll or spend points for the other stats.

I'm not sure how that would work but I've been trying to come up with some houserules along the line of your suggestion, and something like that is the best I've though up sofar.

But that's because I've been limited to bolting something onto an existing edition. A game designed from the ground up with this principle could do much better.

5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."

 

I once asked the question (in D&D 3.5) "Does a Druid4/Wizard3/ArcaneHierophant1 have Wildshape?". Jesse Decker and Andy Collins: Yes and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Rich Redman and Ed Stark: No and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Skip Williams: Lol, it's worded ambiguously and entirely not how I intended it. (Cust. Serv. Reference# 050815-000323)

I agree to a point, but using Dex for accuracy makes it even more of a god-stat.



Oh I forgot to mention I'd merge strength and con. So now your hit points come from strength. 

The way I see it would be something like:

Strength: Damage and Bonus Hp, Fort saves.
Dexterity: Accuracy and dodging, Reflex saves.
Intelligence: Bonus skills, bonus spell slots, bonus manuevers, resisting confusion and illusions.
Charisma: Bonus to breach spell resistance, some kind of luck benefit (bonus action points or rerolls), resisting charm and domination.

Generally all your miscellaneous class stuff like paladin divine gifts, cleric energy channel, bardic music, barbarian rage, warlord leadership, etc are all regulated by your charisma. The idea that charisma is the stat that gives you the intensity to go above and beyond for non-physical activities.
As nice as it would be to have basic balance for them, i don't think anyone is going to change the 6 stat's at this point in time...

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List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
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s to intentionally miss with
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Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
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my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />I agree to a point, but using Dex for accuracy makes it even more of a god-stat.



Oh I forgot to mention I'd merge strength and con. So now your hit points come from strength. 

The way I see it would be something like:

Strength: Damage and Bonus Hp, Fort saves.
Dexterity: Accuracy and dodging, Reflex saves.
Intelligence: Bonus skills, bonus spell slots, bonus manuevers, resisting confusion and illusions.
Charisma: Bonus to breach spell resistance, some kind of luck benefit (bonus action points or rerolls), resisting charm and domination.

Generally all your miscellaneous class stuff like paladin divine gifts, cleric energy channel, bardic music, barbarian rage, warlord leadership, etc are all regulated by your charisma. The idea that charisma is the stat that gives you the intensity to go above and beyond for non-physical activities.



I was going to suggest that as a reply to your original post, but was lazy.

+1. This reduces complexity, knocks Dex off its king-stat pedestal, reconciles an issue I've had with cleric vs. paladin casting (just my own pet peeve), fixes the issue of having a saving throw for every stat but never using some of them, fixes the fact that there were no skills using con.

I'm sold.

PS: except I'm still not sure about Dex to accuracy. Also, theres no reason to call the saves Fort and Ref... but thats merely semantic.

PPS: Mellored - 
As nice as it would be to have basic balance for them, i don't think anyone is going to change the 6 stat's at this point in time...



Alas this is undoubtedly true.


Merging wisdom and charisma, or wisdom/intelligence would also help quite a bit. But the game is a bit too bound by tradition for tradition's sake.


I would merge wisdom with both charisma and intelligence

The perception part of wisdom could go to intelligence (think of Sherlock Holmes, seeing the clues is one thing, knowing how to interpret them is the other)
and the willpower/insight part could go to charisma (since willpower and confidence/ego often go hand in hand, that makes some sense)
You would end up with 2 mental abilities: one that is intellectual, perceptive, witty and cunning. Perfect for wizards 
the other is the will, personality, sense of self, Ki, soul and spirit, fueling monks, clerics, paladins.


Yup, thats how Id do it too, split Wis into Int and Cha.

Similarly, Id do it for physical abilities too. Split Str into Dex (agility) and Con (endurance).

Basically, there are four abilities.

Reflex
Fortitude

Perception
Will
Every stat should be important for every class.  Why accept the existence of even a single dump stat?

If you can think of enough things without being contrived, sure.

Got a reason why paladins should care about Int?



The same reason any non-wizard (or, more generally, anyone who has Int as a non-prime-requisite) should care about it.


I don't know what specifically that is, but you don't need to give every class a class-specific reason to care about each stat.  All you have to do is make at least most of the stats useful to everyone via generic changes to what the stat modifier applies to.  (And it probably would require altering the mod system slightly.)

As an example, and this is probably terribly balanced, and it's also mostly stolen from Hackmaster:


Str - Mod applies to damage rolls, determines carrying capacity
Dex - Mod applies to AC and attack rolls (without reworking the mod system, I'd say half to each).
Con - Mod applies to HP.
Int - Mod applies to attack rolls.
Wis - Mod applies to initiative and AC.
Cha - Mod applies to all social skills.


Specific classes would then have reasons to care more about one stat or another.  (A Slayer fighter might get to add Str to attack rolls.  A pure Defender might get to add Str to AC.  A wizard uses Int for setting their save DC.) 

As an added side bonus, splitting up stats with redundancy like this (especially on attack rolls) makes non-fighter-types more likely to want to take swings with weapons.  Most wizards still don't care all that much about Str; most pure 'Ogg hit' fighters don't care much about Charisma.  But any member of any class can gain noticeable benefit from any stat.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
Basically, there are four abilities.

Reflex
Fortitude

Perception
Will


I would have merged CON and strength instead: rarely do you see someone very strong that doesn't also have lots of body mass, or someone that strength trains but is not healthy.
And even in play, you rarely see a character with high strength that doesn't care about his constitution score too.

Dexterity is another matter, because it also includes fine manipulation (which makes it closer to perception than strength imo)

I wrote a fantasy heartbreaker a few years ago, and it had 4 abilities: Might(str + con), Agility(dex), Mind (int + perception), Spirit (charisma + will+ all the other intangibles)

I also went minimalistic with the skill list to the point where there were only 6 left, but they still covered everything
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Personally I think all that is needed is 4 attributes:

Strength
Agility
Intellect
Spirit

Combined strength and constitution to become the new Strength and split wisdom into two parts and give the wise and perceptive portion to Intellect. The mental strength and willpower portion combines with charisma to become Spirit.


I wrote a fantasy heartbreaker a few years ago, and it had 4 abilities: Might(str + con), Agility(dex), Mind (int + perception), Spirit (charisma + will+ all the other intangibles)

I also went minimalistic with the skill list to the point where there were only 6 left, but they still covered everything



Personally I think all that is needed is 4 attributes:

Strength
Agility
Intellect
Spirit

Combined strength and constitution to become the new Strength and split wisdom into two parts and give the wise and perceptive portion to Intellect. The mental strength and willpower portion combines with charisma to become Spirit.



Welcome to my brain, circa 2008
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Muscularity and Mentality.

Muscleboundness and Brainitude.

Yeah, I got nothin' concrete to add to this discussion.  It's nice... but the 6 are about as sanctified and bovine as it's possible to get.
Basically, there are four abilities.

Reflex
Fortitude

Perception
Will


I would have merged CON and strength instead: rarely do you see someone very strong that doesn't also have lots of body mass, or someone that strength trains but is not healthy.
And even in play, you rarely see a character with high strength that doesn't care about his constitution score too.

Dexterity is another matter, because it also includes fine manipulation (which makes it closer to perception than strength imo)

I wrote a fantasy heartbreaker a few years ago, and it had 4 abilities: Might(str + con), Agility(dex), Mind (int + perception), Spirit (charisma + will+ all the other intangibles)

I also went minimalistic with the skill list to the point where there were only 6 left, but they still covered everything

Agility - necessarily - includes jumping.

Agility means explosive strength.

Basically, there are four abilities.

Reflex
Fortitude

Perception
Will


I would have merged CON and strength instead: rarely do you see someone very strong that doesn't also have lots of body mass, or someone that strength trains but is not healthy.
And even in play, you rarely see a character with high strength that doesn't care about his constitution score too.

Dexterity is another matter, because it also includes fine manipulation (which makes it closer to perception than strength imo)

I wrote a fantasy heartbreaker a few years ago, and it had 4 abilities: Might(str + con), Agility(dex), Mind (int + perception), Spirit (charisma + will+ all the other intangibles)

I also went minimalistic with the skill list to the point where there were only 6 left, but they still covered everything

Agility - necessarily - includes jumping.

Agility means explosive strength.



Actualy, I don't think there realy is any dexterity in jumping
 You flex your legs and then extend them. it's almost purely strength based.

I do get what you mean though.

You might enjoy BESM  
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The idea of having a class with 2 (or more) paths depending on the max attributes (such as a strength-y Cleric who specializes in close combat vs a wis laser cleric) sound very good for those who like point buys and those who don't allow girdle of giant strength.     But, if not, you can run into problems where a player effectively doubles their power because the class was designed to encourage hard choices, but the player managed to optimize two attributes.   

Though, those who like rolling for stats may tell me that relative power doesn't matter
Dex - Mod applies to AC and attack rolls (without reworking the mod system, I'd say half to each).

The bolded part got me thinking. What if it was AC OR attack rolls. Sorta like 3e's combat expertise feat. Take your dex bonus, and apply it to either AC or attack roll, with the simple solution is to divide it in half for both (with any odd bonus defaulting to AC or attack, based on preference of defensive vs offensive). Changing the allocation would require an action, to help prevent abuse.

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