Losing the skill die? Really!?

Really? That was my favorite part of the whole post: if you're specifically trained in something, then you eventually get to the point where you cannot fail at an easy task. What did you prefer about the skill die, that is not accomplished with a flat bonus?

The metagame is not the game.

Are you sure they're removing the skill die entirely, and not just from knowledge checks?

Really? That was my favorite part of the whole post: if you're specifically trained in something, then you eventually get to the point where you cannot fail at an easy task. What did you prefer about the skill die, that is not accomplished with a flat bonus?



Everything. I have made many posts about this. The move to a bell curve was brilliant. And, I whole-heartedly disagree with the claim that if you are trained in something you eventually cannot fail at an easy task. Murphy causes the strangest things to happen. The skill die was one of the best innovations of DDN. Erasing it removes a lot of my interest in this playtest. I am not going to make an empirical claim about what I will or will not do. I have no idea. But, bounded accuracy and the skill die were the two things that made me really love DDN to date. If it actually gets removed, I feel a lot less interested about what DDN has to offer…

Everything. I have made many posts about this. The move to a bell curve was brilliant. And, I whole-heartedly disagree with the claim that if you are trained in something you eventually cannot fail at an easy task. Murphy causes the strangest things to happen. The skill die was one of the best innovations of DDN. Erasing it removes a lot of my interest in this playtest. I am not going to make an empirical claim about what I will or will not do. I have no idea. But, bounded accuracy and the skill die were the two things that made me really love DDN to date. If it actually gets removed, I feel a lot less interested about what DDN has to offer…



I hear you. I was pretty pleased with the stuff in the article, except for the part about skills, which leaves me depressed.
I enjoyed the article as well but I disagree about the skill dice. I felt it was too swingy particularly at higher level a character could easily fail a very simple check even if trained. A fixed bonus I think will be helpful to illustrate growth.
Areas of competences : I like the concept a lot.
The DM is free to ask any ability check within what he consider being part of the concerned domain of competence.
No bothering skill dice.
Mountainers and sailors don't know by default all the possible uses of ropes.

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

I enjoyed the article as well but I disagree about the skill dice. I felt it was too swingy particularly at higher level a character could easily fail a very simple check even if trained. A fixed bonus I think will be helpful to illustrate growth.




Yup, and I've seen a SFC (fairly high ranking enlisted army person) barely eek out her marksmanship even though she was hawkeye (perfect) almost the entirety of her career. Crap happens. Muscle memory is good but it isn't perfect, and neither is normal memory. The skill die reflected that. It was awesome. Go to an artisan center/village/store some time. Ask them if they always make their basket/bread/beer/silverware/etc at a consitent quality. Well, don't ACTUALLY go. Because let's face it, we ALL know the answer. The answer is "no." Though actually actually ACTUALLY actually... you should go to an artisan center/village/store/etc.. They would appreciate the patronage. Tongue Out We all should go.
I enjoyed the article as well but I disagree about the skill dice. I felt it was too swingy particularly at higher level a character could easily fail a very simple check even if trained. A fixed bonus I think will be helpful to illustrate growth.




Yup, and I've seen a SFC (fairly high ranking enlisted army person) barely eek out her marksmanship even though she was hawkeye (perfect) almost the entirety of her career. Crap happens. Muscle memory is good but it isn't perfect, and neither is normal memory. The skill die reflected that. It was awesome. Go to an artisan center/village/store some time. Ask them if they always make their basket/bread/beer/silverware/etc at a consitent quality. Well, don't ACTUALLY go. Because let's face it, we ALL know the answer. The answer is "no." Though actually actually ACTUALLY actually... you should go to an artisan center/village/store/etc.. They would appreciate the patronage. Tongue Out We all should go.

No, I agree high level characters should still be able to fail task because of a bad d20 roll but their skill mod shouldn't change was my point. Why do you need to roll good twice to pull off something that should be in your range of capability? I don't think they need to change the progression just give average skill dice roll aka d6=3, d8=4, and etc.
Bleh. Yeah I supposed I have to agree with that logic. My entire group did, however, rave about how fun skill dice were. So I suppose they'll make a good optional rule.
I am saddened by the loss of the skill dice as well...

I can't really explain why, but it was a nice neat mechanic.

The lack of a bonus was the big one for me. If you're trained, you simply roll another dice and that is that. Great for NPCs. 

No going, "I have a +3 from ability... and a +4 from the skill... and a +2 from that Feat they said wouldn't be giving a bonus to skils, but did anyway... Which is a +9 to my roll."

Much rathered "I have a +3 from ability (+d6 skill) + d20" 

It was easier for the players to get too... 

I don't know. I'll probably like the static bonus anyway.  
I shan't miss them - d20 + a different dice depending on circumstances + modifier is horribly clunky. If you like a bell curve, change the d20, don't throw a bag full of mixed dice at it.
Why do you need to roll good twice to pull off something that should be in your range of capability?


I'm not seeing the logic here - why do you need to roll at all to pull off something that 'should be' in your range of capability?

If there's a need to roll at all, why balk at rolling a couple of dice and adding? Damage works that way - "hey, I already rolled 1D6, why should I have to roll good on the other D6?"

"In the game there is magic" - Orethalion

 

Only got words in my copy.

 

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The Development stage of a game, where nothing is set in stone and everything can change quickly, is rollercoasty and often hard to follow i agree. Don't let your interest wane due to that Dave  especially if you already had interest in D&D Next prior to the arrival Skill Die. Things will come and go during this stage and we need to take a step back and not get too overly invested in things we like or dislike as they may very well not stick around.

Hang on! 
Perhaps with skills being modular, the skill dice could go back to being a rogue thing?

Rogues and other skill classes will now need some sort of skill thing with skills being optional.


Also there could be a skill die option for skill instead of hard bonuses.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

The Development stage of a game, where nothing is set in stone and everything can change quickly, is rollercoasty and often hard to follow i agree. Don't let your interest wane due to that Dave  especially if you already had interest in D&D Next prior to the arrival Skill Die. Things will come and go during this stage and we need to take a step back and not get too overly invested in things we like or dislike as they may very well not stick around.

Hang on! 



+1

I'm pretty sure they are making Skills something optional because it will be easier that way to provide modularity to it. I would bet that the +1d6 skill dice system will be treated in the DM options.
I like that they will make the Skill system more flexible/modular again.

But I am dissapointed that they are exchanging the Skill Die for a Static Bonus, I Liked the Skill Die because it gave more fluctuation to the game while still making you feel like the character was better, it wasn't always an 'auto-success'.
I feel for you guys that want the dice.  

Would saying that a 1 always failed help?  

Maybe a telescoping system where you subtract 10 from your bonus and roll again whenever you get a 1.  Same for rolling a 20.   If 20 is a miss naturally rolled just add 10 to your bonus and roll again.   If you roll a 1 or a 20 again just repeat increasing the bonus each time.

Anyway just ideas.  

 

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I also am sorry to see the skill die go. However, the system that is proposed is promising, even if it does use flat bonuses. As I said in the official thread, the combination of Area of Knowledge, Expertise, and Benefit give the PC three things: A way to better at something than anyone else, a way to do something that no one else can, and a way to do something interesting. However, I still feel that the system would be benefited by the SD. Maybe it could replace Area of Knowledge's bonus?
Once we have a tech piece like Skill Dice I think they can nearly always be Moduled back in.


Really most of the things we've seen in the playtest so far can be added as house rules - aka Modules of optional rules. 
Honestly, since they're presenting this new version of static-bonus Skills as an optional module anyway, I think it won't be too out of line to expect a Skill Dice optional module as well. Especially if all you folk who really like the Skill Dice politely remind them how much you like it.

That said, I'm one of the people that's definitely gonna drop the Skill modules altogether. I like the way they present Areas of Knowledge, the expanded concept for proficiencies, and just leaving "Skill" checks as ability checks that may sometimes require a proficiency. I like the simplicity of it.

Really? That was my favorite part of the whole post: if you're specifically trained in something, then you eventually get to the point where you cannot fail at an easy task. What did you prefer about the skill die, that is not accomplished with a flat bonus?



Everything. I have made many posts about this. The move to a bell curve was brilliant. And, I whole-heartedly disagree with the claim that if you are trained in something you eventually cannot fail at an easy task. Murphy causes the strangest things to happen. The skill die was one of the best innovations of DDN. Erasing it removes a lot of my interest in this playtest. I am not going to make an empirical claim about what I will or will not do. I have no idea. But, bounded accuracy and the skill die were the two things that made me really love DDN to date. If it actually gets removed, I feel a lot less interested about what DDN has to offer…



While it won't lessen my interest in DDN quite as much as you've stated it will yours, I like skill dice for the same reasons you've mentioned, and I will surely be disappointed if they really do get permanently removed.

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Really? That was my favorite part of the whole post: if you're specifically trained in something, then you eventually get to the point where you cannot fail at an easy task. What did you prefer about the skill die, that is not accomplished with a flat bonus?



Everything. I have made many posts about this. The move to a bell curve was brilliant. And, I whole-heartedly disagree with the claim that if you are trained in something you eventually cannot fail at an easy task. Murphy causes the strangest things to happen. The skill die was one of the best innovations of DDN. Erasing it removes a lot of my interest in this playtest. I am not going to make an empirical claim about what I will or will not do. I have no idea. But, bounded accuracy and the skill die were the two things that made me really love DDN to date. If it actually gets removed, I feel a lot less interested about what DDN has to offer…



The problem is that 1 extra die isn't a steep enough bell curve to provide a meaningful baseline. A character who is the best in the world will still have 1d20+1d12+5 as his roll, and thus fail a DC10 task (ie considered relatively easy even for an untrained person with no aptitude at all for the skill) 4% of the time. If you take away the amazing attribute and make it just skill+d20, he can fail that test a whopping 20% of the time. 

Now if it was something like 1d20+1d6 for every skill rank up, that might not be so bad, but it would also break the hell out of bounded accuracy (1d20+5d6+5 has a nice normal distribution centered around 33, and would be great if it wasn't an explicit design goal to let people be able to succeed even at a hard task they are not adequately trained for)
Skill dice do not represent training correctly IMO.    

With the skill die mechanic, a character that has a 1d12 skill die while climbing can look like an untrained fool.     Sure the math might average out over X number of rolls, but the number of rolls required to realize that average may not occur enough in a gaming session.   You may only need to climb a few times per level and if you roll low your character won't look trained at all.    

On the other hand, I agree that skill dice are fun.     For that reason, I'd rather see a hybrid of the two systems.    Perhaps something like a +3 + skill die or rolls with several dice to keep the min higher (ie.  3d4)      Actually, there is no reason why the game couldn't include three optional skill check systems;   a static bonus, a hybrid, and the full skill die. 


 



Really? That was my favorite part of the whole post: if you're specifically trained in something, then you eventually get to the point where you cannot fail at an easy task. What did you prefer about the skill die, that is not accomplished with a flat bonus?



Everything. I have made many posts about this. The move to a bell curve was brilliant. And, I whole-heartedly disagree with the claim that if you are trained in something you eventually cannot fail at an easy task. Murphy causes the strangest things to happen. The skill die was one of the best innovations of DDN. Erasing it removes a lot of my interest in this playtest. I am not going to make an empirical claim about what I will or will not do. I have no idea. But, bounded accuracy and the skill die were the two things that made me really love DDN to date. If it actually gets removed, I feel a lot less interested about what DDN has to offer…



The problem is that 1 extra die isn't a steep enough bell curve to provide a meaningful baseline. A character who is the best in the world will still have 1d20+1d12+5 as his roll, and thus fail a DC10 task (ie considered relatively easy even for an untrained person with no aptitude at all for the skill) 4% of the time. If you take away the amazing attribute and make it just skill+d20, he can fail that test a whopping 20% of the time. 

Now if it was something like 1d20+1d6 for every skill rank up, that might not be so bad, but it would also break the hell out of bounded accuracy (1d20+5d6+5 has a nice normal distribution centered around 33, and would be great if it wasn't an explicit design goal to let people be able to succeed even at a hard task they are not adequately trained for)


The solution I proposed for this a while back lay in eventually granting characters skill focus and skill supremacy in their areas of expertise as a sort of automatic function of leveling, in addition to bumping up the skill die.  At level 2 you get a bonus skill feat, at level 7 the die bumps AND you get a bonus skill feat, etc. etc.

Focus raises the floor of skill checks, giving experts that 'effortless' ability to always pass easy DCs.  Supremacy raises the ceiling WITHOUT breaking the bounded DC curve, which is a far more elegant solution to me than throwing a +10 at it.

That said, I know nothing of the possible L&L implementation...  Maybe it'll work out, maybe it won't...  Who can tell at this point.
Where can i read up on this? Where is the announcement?
When we had the skill die I thought an interesting "fix" was to allow trained PCs to take 10 on their d20 roll. It means a trained PC can be really consistent as the only variability comes from the skill die.

Really? That was my favorite part of the whole post: if you're specifically trained in something, then you eventually get to the point where you cannot fail at an easy task. What did you prefer about the skill die, that is not accomplished with a flat bonus?



Everything. I have made many posts about this. The move to a bell curve was brilliant. And, I whole-heartedly disagree with the claim that if you are trained in something you eventually cannot fail at an easy task. Murphy causes the strangest things to happen. The skill die was one of the best innovations of DDN. Erasing it removes a lot of my interest in this playtest. I am not going to make an empirical claim about what I will or will not do. I have no idea. But, bounded accuracy and the skill die were the two things that made me really love DDN to date. If it actually gets removed, I feel a lot less interested about what DDN has to offer…



The problem is that 1 extra die isn't a steep enough bell curve to provide a meaningful baseline. A character who is the best in the world will still have 1d20+1d12+5 as his roll, and thus fail a DC10 task (ie considered relatively easy even for an untrained person with no aptitude at all for the skill) 4% of the time. If you take away the amazing attribute and make it just skill+d20, he can fail that test a whopping 20% of the time. 

Now if it was something like 1d20+1d6 for every skill rank up, that might not be so bad, but it would also break the hell out of bounded accuracy (1d20+5d6+5 has a nice normal distribution centered around 33, and would be great if it wasn't an explicit design goal to let people be able to succeed even at a hard task they are not adequately trained for)




It is if you realize that rolling poorly doesn't necessarily mean your character F*d up.  It could mean that external circumstances intervened to sabotage you: what looked like a legit hand hold for your climb check broke off, that your horse decided to rear suddenly, that the duke you're charming just woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning...  When you recognize that, it's a lot easier to swallow the idea of a high level character failing an easy DC.  But skill die is something that's so pathetically easy to module in with zero impact on the rest of the game that this entire argument is moot.  If you like skill die, use them; if not, don't.
Where can i read up on this? Where is the announcement?

wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/2...

I am not running away from the test Plague. I will still be here (though I have been really busy this April, and so have not been around much). But the loss of the skill die removes a HUGE chunk of my interest in the game. I mildly liked a lot of other stuff. There isn't a whole lot I dislike. But, there were only two aspects of the game (so far) that made me sit up and say, "wow, that is cool, I am REALLY interested." Those two are bounded accuracy and skill dice. Now they have lost skill dice. 

I am starting to wonder if a house-ruled version of d20 Modern or Star Wars Saga, that uses skill dice, won't be more my cup of tea. I mean, I have already sat down and house ruled a version of Monte Cook's World of Darkness, rebalancing Monte's horrible mistakes, introducing the skill die to the mechanics, and I LOVE the result. That is pretty much a d20 Modern with skill dice already.  


I will check out what the next packet looks like. But to me, this is a big loss. People are complaining that you could fail easy checks, but the ability to fail easy checks and pass high checks at a wider range of levels is EXACTLY why I loved the skill die. That is what bounded accuracy is SUPPOSED to do. The skill die made skills work in a bounded way.


I am not saying that this is my line in the sand. I am not saying that if they remove skill dice I am out. I do, however, suddenly feel a lot less interested in this game. I will keep play testing. But, without the skill die, I am not really seeing any inovation that makes me stop and take notice.  

I agree... the loss of the skill die is a huge setback in my opinion. Fortunately, it seems that the truly modular presentation of skills will make it easier than ever to substitute a homebrew skill system.

Somebody will homebrew a really excellent skill die based system, and I'll be using that. 
I agree... the loss of the skill die is a huge setback in my opinion. Fortunately, it seems that the truly modular presentation of skills will make it easier than ever to substitute a homebrew skill system.

Somebody will homebrew a really excellent skill die based system, and I'll be using that. 

There is a thing, in my signature, that does a lot with skill dice.

I make no attempt to claim it is comprehensive or universal.  But you might like it.
I agree... the loss of the skill die is a huge setback in my opinion. Fortunately, it seems that the truly modular presentation of skills will make it easier than ever to substitute a homebrew skill system.

Somebody will homebrew a really excellent skill die based system, and I'll be using that. 

There is a thing, in my signature, that does a lot with skill dice.

I make no attempt to claim it is comprehensive or universal.  But you might like it.



I will check it out and thanks for directing me there!
I think the fact that they are offering different ways to do skills will still let you use skill dice.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

I think the fact that they are offering different ways to do skills will still let you use skill dice.

This is my hope as well.  I liked the concept of the skill die, partly because it was something different (and thus gives us all more options), and partly because of how the mechanic worked.  It would be a shame to simply toss it out completely.
I think the fact that they are offering different ways to do skills will still let you use skill dice.

This is true...  I am happy to hear that modular design is still a goal, and many different optional rules sub-systems will be presented.

However, there's something about removing the idea of skill dice as a feature of the core game that rubs me the wrong way.  I think it's because (I feel, or I got the impression that) the math behind bounded accuracy and bounded DCs should be the permanent engine that makes DDN run.  Everything else gets slapped on top of that or removed from that, but it doesn't lose a compact, +1 to +5 progression with a focus on bell curve statistics.

That's why I'm all yes to skill focus and advantage, and no to +10 recall lore.
Whatever system you have that mechanically represents skills making you better than not having the skill:

Rolling dice is fun.  Rolling dice is better.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I've never been a fan of the skill dice. I think it just introduces more randomness into the game for no real reason. You're already rolling a d20, so why do we need another dice to make the result even more random?

Basically all the skill dice does is make so that even highly trained characters can totally botch sometimes with a double 1, and it makes it very hard to make tasks impossible, so you can expect that trained high level characters could simply gamble and keep rolling a bunch.

It also makes it difficult to determine how long roughly it will take to achieve this, so you can't really have a take 20 mehcanic like older editions and have to resort to sitting there while the PC rolls over and over again.

Actually rolling more dice makes the result less random.  Less variance, at least, which is what you actually mean.  "Random" is a binary condition - something is either random or it's not.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition


That's why I'm all yes to skill focus and advantage, and no to +10 recall lore.



Seriously, why would they abandon the skill die for +10. Suddenly in the realm of Bounded Accuracy you can roll 30 on Lore checks. ?!!?!?!

Whatever system you have that mechanically represents skills making you better than not having the skill:

Rolling dice is fun.  Rolling dice is better.



I think this is a really important part of the skill die that needs to be considered with more weight. Rolling dice has a tactile element that flat bonuses to skills just can't provide. Thats why 1d6 skill die is better than static +3 to all skills.

Theres also the fact that it makes it easier to remember to apply the bonus, because the bonus is a physical thing sitting on the table. 
Aha!  Yes!  I had a great argument for skill dice, and then I forgot it.  But then samasamasarama (man what is up with your name) helped me remember it.

If characters aren't getting high enough results under skill dice, just lower the DCs and reduce the separation between each rung of DC.  It worked for monster AC, didn't it?  That's the point of bounded accuracy.
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