Wild Evocation and Disaster Radius

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Wild Evocation says that "At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player reveals a card at random from his or her hand. If it's a land card, that player puts it onto the battlefield. Otherwise, that player casts it without paying its mana cost if able."

If the player can pay any mandatory additional costs, the player has to pay them, since they are able to cast it. This is according to the Oracle ruling here.

But if the card that's revealed is a Disaster Radius, and that player has at least one other card in his or her hand, what happens? What stops that player from claiming that they have no creature cards in hand, even though they may or may not be lying? The "fail to find" rule only applies to searches in a hidden zone, and this isn't a search. How can it be verified that that player really has no creature cards in their hand to cast Disaster Radius?

Is this a corner case that the rules don't cover? 
You're never required to reveal hidden information unless an effect explicitly tells you to.

You won't have to reveal a creature card from your hand if you don't want to, even if you have one.

Even if your opponent has a Telepathy, and they see you having a creature card in your hand, you can say "I can't reveal a creature card." Make sure to smile when you do this ;)

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They can choose not to reveal a creature card.  If they do not reveal one, Disaster Radius cannot be cast.

Rules Advisor

What if Telepathy was on the battlefield, and an opponent of the player with Disaster Radius on the battlefield controlled it? Since the contents of the player's hand is now known to everybody, would that player have to cast Disaster Radius?

I vaguely remember there being a ruling about not needing to reveal a card in a hidden zone to satisfy a cost even if it already happens to be revealed, but I may be wrong. If this ruling is correct, then the answer to the above question would probably be no.
What if Telepathy was on the battlefield, and an opponent of the player with Disaster Radius on the battlefield controlled it? Since the contents of the player's hand is now known to everybody, would that player have to cast Disaster Radius? I vaguely remember there being a ruling about not needing to reveal a card in a hidden zone to satisfy a cost even if it already happens to be revealed, but I may be wrong. If this ruling is correct, then the answer to the above question would probably be no.


No.  The hand is always a hidden zone, even if everyone knows what's in it.

Rules Advisor


Apr 21, 2013 -- 2:52PM, Rhazgriz wrote:

What if Telepathy was on the battlefield, and an opponent of the player with Disaster Radius on the battlefield controlled it? Since the contents of the player's hand is now known to everybody, would that player have to cast Disaster Radius ? I vaguely remember there being a ruling about not needing to reveal a card in a hidden zone to satisfy a cost even if it already happens to be revealed, but I may be wrong. If this ruling is correct, then the answer to the above question would probably be no.



No.  The hand is always a hidden zone, even if everyone knows what's in it.


Awesome, that's what I thought. Thanks for the help.
I disagree here.

Saying the hand is a hidden zone is true, but I don't believe that's relevant to this discussion.

Telepathy has the hand revealed, if there is a creature card in his hand, then presumably he can pay the cost because it is already revealed.

Is there a ruling somewhere that states otherwise?

because to me, the revealing part of the additional cost has already been met.
The player now merely has to choose one of the creature cards in his hand.

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I disagree here.

Saying the hand is a hidden zone is true, but I don't believe that's relevant to this discussion.

Telepathy has the hand revealed, if there is a creature card in his hand, then presumably he can pay the cost because it is already revealed.

Is there a ruling somewhere that states otherwise?

because to me, the revealing part of the additional cost has already been met.
The player now merely has to choose one of the creature cards in his hand.



By this logic, the player can't pay the cost by revealing a card, because the cards are already revealed. It would be like trying to a tapped permanent.

Even if all of the cards in a player's hand are revealed, that doesn't reduce the cost to cast Disaster Radius in any way. Likewise, the hand is still a hidden zone. I think the rules for searching could also be applied here.

400.2. Public zones are zones in which all players can see the cards’ faces, except for those cards that
some rule or effect specifically allow to be face down. Graveyard, battlefield, stack, exile, ante, and
command are public zones. Hidden zones are zones in which not all players can be expected to see
the cards’ faces. Library and hand are hidden zones, even if all the cards in one such zone happen to
be revealed.

701.13a To reveal a card, show that card to all players for a brief time. If an effect causes a card to
be revealed, it remains revealed for as long as necessary to complete the parts of the effect that
card is relevant to. If the cost to cast a spell or activate an ability includes revealing a card, the
card remains revealed from the time the spell or ability is announced until it the time it leaves
the stack.

701.15b If a player is searching a hidden zone for cards with a stated quality, such as a card with a
certain card type or color, that player isn’t required to find some or all of those cards even if
they’re present in that zone.
Rules Advisor
I think it's similar to the diference between having mana in your pool for some reason and having to put mana in your pool.

If there was an additional cost that had a player pay to cast a spell, the player could get around the cost by not tapping the mana abilities, but they can not similarly do so if the mana is already there. If they had in their pool, they'd have to say which one they're spending to pay the cost of

Likewise if the cards are already revealed, they therefore should have to choose an applicable creature card to pay the cost.

I think the Hidden Zone factor is a red herring.

The cost concerns a card being revealed and it is, the cost does not concern searching for a card in a hidden zone of a specific characteristic.

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If you can cast Disaster Radius, then you must do it. You can't choose not to reveal a creature card from your hand if you have one. If you don't have one, you must prove it -in a tournament, you'd call a judge to verify.
Nylon, you've been pretty spot-on with stuff like this in the past, but I must admit that this goes against my intuitive understanding of the game. Can you provide a rules quote that demonstrates why this works like that?
It follows the principle of cast if able which essentially applies the shortcut rules to the procedure of casting a spell except that if the shortcut would end in a mandatory loop, the game just continues without casting it because that means the spell can't be cast.

Actions required by objects called for in the loop must be done, but external actions are not required.
Revealing the card is certainly an action required by an object in the loop therefore you must do so if able to.

The rules specifically exempt a player from having to activate mana abilities, but there is no similar exemption for having to reveal a card.

Therefore no rule exists to prove Nylon's claim, but he is a judge and rulings trump the rules until such point as the rules are updated to render the ruling unnecessary.

from a practical perspective, it becomes difficult to verify that a player does not have a card of a specific characteristic to reveal, so some kind of independent authority (ie. Judge) can verify this without the player having to give out information on his cards that would be harmful to his position in the game.

If those cards are already revealed then there is no potential for harm as all the cards are already revealed and he is already at a disadvantage.

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If you can cast Disaster Radius, then you must do it. You can't choose not to reveal a creature card from your hand if you have one. If you don't have one, you must prove it -in a tournament, you'd call a judge to verify.


This isn't true at all.  You're saying that if I'm forced to cast Disaster Radius if able, and I say that I am not able to because I don't have a creature in my hand, then I have to reveal my entire hand to you to prove it?  No.  Bluffing--aka lying--is a big part of any strategy game.  I can tell you what I have and do not have in my hand, and I don't have to prove a damn thing to you.  Even if my hand is revealed to you, and even if you know for a fact that I have a creature in my hand, it doesn't change the fact that the hand is a hidden zone, and just like in any other hidden zone, I can "fail" to find things.

The relevent rule has already been quoted:
701.15b If a player is searching a hidden zone for cards with a stated quality, such as a card with a
certain card type or color, that player isn’t required to find some or all of those cards even if
they’re present in that zone.


Edit:  I would like to go on record and say that, even though the hand is a hidden zone, if someone were to be forced to cast Disaster Radius and everyone knows that that player had a creature in their hand via Telepathy or ilk, I feel that they should have to cast Disaster Radius.  However, the rules do not support this, and I stand by the rules, whether or not I agree with them.

Rules Advisor

Here is the official ruling for a similar scenario. I do not think there was a ruling specifically for Disaster Radius or Silvergill Adept.
If you can pay the costs, you must. In the case of Fling, if you control a creature, you must sacrifice it to cast the Fling. In the case of Lightning Axe, you must choose the option you can pay for (so if you have a card in your hand, you'll have to choose that option for the Axe unless you can produce 5 mana).

Here is the official ruling for a similar scenario. I do not think there was a ruling specifically for Disaster Radius or Silvergill Adept.
If you can pay the costs, you must. In the case of Fling, if you control a creature, you must sacrifice it to cast the Fling. In the case of Lightning Axe, you must choose the option you can pay for (so if you have a card in your hand, you'll have to choose that option for the Axe unless you can produce 5 mana).



I don't think this helps.  You can't cast Fling if you don't have a creature to sacrifice.  You can't cast Lightning Axe if you don't have a card to discard or 5 mana to pay.  In both of those examples, the additional costs can be determined by known information in public zones.  Disaster Radius requires an additional cost that comes from a hidden zone, and no one outside the caster knows what's in that hidden zone.

Rules Advisor

I say that I am not able to because I don't have a creature in my hand, then I have to reveal my entire hand to you to prove it?

no, Nylon said you have to reveal it to an independent authority for confirmation (such as a Judge)

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I say that I am not able to because I don't have a creature in my hand, then I have to reveal my entire hand to you to prove it?

no, Nylon said you have to reveal it to an independent authority for confirmation (such as a Judge)


I see.  The post was worded a little ambiguously.  Nevertheless, is there a rule that proves this?

Rules Advisor

Revealing it to a judge eliminates the possibility of bluffing. But regardless of the way we feel about strategy games, the rules mandate that you cast the spell if you're able to do it.

701.15b doesn't cover this scenario. "Search" has a specific meaning in Magic.

117.3c reminds us that it's not necessary to activate mana abilities if you're forced to pay a cost. However, revealing the card is not analogous to tapping lands in this scenario. It's analogous to paying mana, and if the mana's in your pool, you must spend it. The fact that it's hidden information is immaterial, except in light of the objections we raise based on the opponent's incapacity to confirm our ability to pay the cost.

I agree that you shouldn't have to pay a cost that is payable only based on hidden information. But there's no rule that cares about that, and no general rule describing how to handle hidden information. We have only the precedent set by 701.15b which, again, pertains exclusively to searching.

As far as I'm aware, there's no rule that says you have to show it to a judge. However, this seems to be the most practical way to verify that no player is breaking the rules.
No, just two rulings by two judges
If you can pay the costs, you must.[..]

 
If you can cast Disaster Radius, then you must do it. You can't choose not to reveal a creature card from your hand if you have one. If you don't have one, you must prove it -in a tournament, you'd call a judge to verify.

and I proved that a rule isn't a requirement here in an earlier post

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It is common sense for me that a Magic game should be playable without the mandatory assistance of a third party (I think that's the philosophy behind 701.15b).

Therefore, I would say that you are not forced to cast  Disaster Radius even if your hand is revealed, the same way you are not forced to find a basic land card with Terramorphic Expanse even if the top card of your library is revealed and it is a Forest.
I agree. The rules need to be adjusted. It's probably more a matter of this never coming up.

But as they are now, you just have to cast it. At tournament, get a judge. At home, just don't be lame and cheat.
At home, just don't be lame and cheat.


So if I am forced to cast Disaster Radius if I am able to, and I have a creature in my hand, and Telepathy is not on the battlefield so no one except me knows what's in my hand, and I say that I am not able to cast it because I don't have a creature in my hand, that's cheating?  I disagree wholeheartedly on this.

Rules Advisor


So if I am forced to cast Disaster Radius if I am able to, and I have a creature in my hand, and Telepathy is not on the battlefield so no one except me knows what's in my hand, and I say that I am not able to cast it because I don't have a creature in my hand, that's cheating?  I disagree wholeheartedly on this.

If the rules say you have to reveal a card and cast DR, and you don't, thats cheating. You dont follow the rules means you cheated.

4.8. Unsporting Conduct — Cheating
Definition
A person breaks a rule defined by the tournament documents, lies to a tournament official, or notices an offense committed in his or her (or a teammate's) match and does not call attention to it. Additionally, the offense must meet the following criteria for it to be considered Cheating:
• The player must be attempting to gain advantage from his or her action.
• The player must be aware that he or she is doing something illegal.

If all criteria are not met, the offense is not Cheating and should be handled by a different infraction. Cheating will often appear on the surface as a Game Play Error or Tournament Error, and must be investigated by the judge to make a determination of intent and awareness.

I suppose one could argue that it's not cheating because he/she wasn't aware that the general rule about hidden info wouldn't apply here.
ie. that it's not ok to lie about not having a creature card in your hand in this particular instance

In the general case, I can say I don't have a counterspell in my hand to my opponent and it isn't cheating to lie about that.

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So if I am forced to cast Disaster Radius if I am able to, and I have a creature in my hand, and Telepathy is not on the battlefield so no one except me knows what's in my hand, and I say that I am not able to cast it because I don't have a creature in my hand, that's cheating?  I disagree wholeheartedly on this.

If the rules say you have to reveal a card and cast DR, and you don't, thats cheating. You dont follow the rules means you cheated.



The rules disagree with you. You're allowed to lie about hidden information. This 2-page thread is an extension of that.

Rules Advisor

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There has been similar situations in the past, and the official ruling for all of them was that you needed a third party to verify. I agree it's undesirable; some old cards have received errata to fix this.

Examples: the Judgment wishes (now they all say "you may"; in the past, you were forced to pick a card if able).

Also Unmask (with its old wording if you resolved it targeting yourself, you didn't have to reveal your hand to your opponent; now you do) and Persecute.
The rules disagree with you. You're allowed to lie about hidden information. This 2-page thread is an extension of that.

No, they don't. I said "If" they require it, then not following them is cheating. The question at hand is IF the rules require that. I would say its clear they do, but perhaps an update will clarify this.

So if I am forced to cast Disaster Radius if I am able to, and I have a creature in my hand, and Telepathy is not on the battlefield so no one except me knows what's in my hand, and I say that I am not able to cast it because I don't have a creature in my hand, that's cheating?  I disagree wholeheartedly on this.

If the rules say you have to reveal a card and cast DR, and you don't, thats cheating. You dont follow the rules means you cheated.


I know what cheating is, thank you.  But this is Magic, not Cribbage.  I don't have to tell you jack.  In fact, I can tell you whatever I want.  I can lie, I can mislead, I can manipulate, and don't you think for a second that I won't.  This isn't an issue of not following the rules, this is a quest to find out exactly what the rules are to prevent misplays.

Rules Advisor


I know what cheating is, thank you.  But this is Magic, not Cribbage.  I don't have to tell you jack.  In fact, I can tell you whatever I want.  I can lie, I can mislead, I can manipulate, and don't you think for a second that I won't.  This isn't an issue of not following the rules, this is a quest to find out exactly what the rules are to prevent misplays.

There are very specific times that you CANNOT lie, this is one of them.

I know what cheating is, thank you.  But this is Magic, not Cribbage.  I don't have to tell you jack.  In fact, I can tell you whatever I want.  I can lie, I can mislead, I can manipulate, and don't you think for a second that I won't.  This isn't an issue of not following the rules, this is a quest to find out exactly what the rules are to prevent misplays.


The game always knows what you can and cannot do, even if the other players do not. If you cast a Rampant Growth face-down and pretend it's a card with morph, you are performing an illegal action, even though your opponents can't verify it at that moment. If the game demands that you perform an action if able and you are able, you must do it.

Rules Advisor

I know what cheating is, thank you.  But this is Magic, not Cribbage.  I don't have to tell you jack.  In fact, I can tell you whatever I want.  I can lie, I can mislead, I can manipulate, and don't you think for a second that I won't.  This isn't an issue of not following the rules, this is a quest to find out exactly what the rules are to prevent misplays.

There are very specific times that you CANNOT lie, this is one of them.


I can lie whenever I want.  I can play a Forest, look you square in the eye, and tell you it's a Tarmogoyf, and nothing in the rules says I can't.  And it's not cheating.

Edit:  Lawyered.

Rules Advisor

No, that's cheating. Free information includes the name of any object on the battlefield. Intentionally misrepresenting Free or Derived information is, in fact, cheating. Nice try, though. ;)


The following rules govern player communication:
• Players must answer all questions asked of them by a judge completely and honestly, regardless of the type of information requested. Players may request to do so away from the match.
Players may not represent derived or free information incorrectly.
• Players must answer completely and honestly any specific questions pertaining to free information.
• At Regular REL, all derived information is instead considered free.

Free information is information to which all players are entitled access without contamination or omissions made by their opponents. If a player is ever unable or unwilling to provide free information to an opponent that has requested it, he or she should call a judge and explain the situation. Free information includes:

• Details of current game actions and past game actions that still affect the game state.
The name of any visible object.
• The type of any counter in a public zone.
• The physical status (tapped/flipped/unattached/phased) and current zone of any object.
• Player life totals, poison counter totals, and the game score of the current match.
• The current step and/or phase and which player(s) are active.


Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

I can play a Forest, look you square in the eye, and tell you it's a Tarmogoyf, and nothing in the rules says I can't.  And it's not cheating.


You may want to take a closer look at the Tournament Rules.

The following rules govern player communication:
• Players must answer all questions asked of them by a judge completely and honestly, regardless of the type of information requested. Players may request to do so away from the match.
Players may not represent derived or free information incorrectly.
• Players must answer completely and honestly any specific questions pertaining to free information.
• At Regular REL, all derived information is instead considered free.
Rules Advisor
I can lie whenever I want.  I can play a Forest, look you square in the eye, and tell you it's a Tarmogoyf, and nothing in the rules says I can't.  And it's not cheating.

The tournament rules, in particular MTR section 4.1 would like a word with you...

MTR 4.1:

[...]

Free information is information to which all players are entitled access without contamination or omissions made by their opponents. If a player is ever unable or unwilling to provide free information to an opponent that has requested it, he or she should call a judge and explain the situation. Free information includes:
• Details of current game actions and past game actions that still affect the game state.
The name of any visible object.
[...]

Derived information is information to which all players are entitled access, but opponents are not obliged to assist in determining and may require some skill or calculation to determine. Derived information includes:
• The number of any type of objects present in any game zone.
All characteristics of objects in public zones that are not defined as free information.
• Game Rules, Tournament Policy, Oracle content and any other official information pertaining to the current tournament. Cards are considered to have their Oracle text printed on them.

[...]

The following rules govern player communication:
• Players must answer all questions asked of them by a judge completely and honestly, regardless of the type of information requested. Players may request to do so away from the match.
• Players may not represent derived or free information incorrectly.
• Players must answer completely and honestly any specific questions pertaining to free information.

• At Regular REL, all derived information is instead considered free.


At least in tournaments you cannot do that. If you try it, you will have an unpleasant conversation with the head judge.

DCI Lvl 2 Judge

Oh, jeez....  They're really cracking down on smartassery, aren't they?

Rules Advisor

Word from on high.

Whether the creature card is already revealed or not, they do not have to cast it.

They don't have to.

Revealing is an action that you must choose to do, it's not “already met” if the card happens to be already revealed. The hand remains a hidden zone even when its contents happen to be revealed. When you're instructed to cast a spell, you can't be forced to cast it if its cost involves information from a hidden zone.

It's the same principle as searches; when searching, you don't have to find objects in hidden zones even if all cards in that zone happen to be revealed.

Daniel Kitachewsky
L3, Paris, France
Rules NetRep

source

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DJ Vortex

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The game always knows what you can and cannot do, even if the other players do not. If you cast a Rampant Growth face-down and pretend it's a card with morph, you are performing an illegal action, even though your opponents can't verify it at that moment. If the game demands that you perform an action if able and you are able, you must do it.


That's different. The rules require you to reveal all face-down cards when the game ends or when they leave the stack/battlefield, and the penalty for casting Rampant Growth as a trap card is that you lose the game (in a tournament setting).
You're not required to reveal your hand ever (unless a card explicitly tells you to).

Thanks for the confirmation 2goth. Glad to hear it works that way. 

Rules Advisor

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Hmm, good to know. I'm glad it's been ruled that way, as I've always believed that hidden information should not affect public game events.
Thanks for the confirmation 2goth. Glad to hear it works that way. 

In my personal opinion, I would have had it force you to cast it if the cards were already revealed (similar to if you had mana already in your pool), but not force a player to reveal a card that isn't revealed (similar to not being required to tap for mana)

but I'm ok with what they decided.

I wasn't really a fan of having to have an independent arbiter verify the cards, even though that seemed to be the logical conclusion of following that train of thought.

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In my personal opinion, I would have had it force you to cast it if the cards were already revealed (similar to if you had mana already in your pool), but not force a player to reveal a card that isn't revealed (similar to not being required to tap for mana)

They key difference, of course, is that the mana you have available is always public information, while your hand is not.

The thing that would have worried me about your preference is that Telepathy would effectively changed what "cast if able" meant, and that makes no sense (since Telepathy doesn't change the gamestate in any way).

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