Critical Hits - We need more dice!

The critical hit rules are terribly boring.  Max damage removes all the joy of counting up the pips on your dice after a massive blow to the enemy.

The critical rules of doubling the dice rolled and doubling the modifier were beautiful.  It makes that 5% chance of smashing an enemy to pieces exciting and being able to double your modifier does the player the service of a flat bonus to damage, along with all the excitement of rolling extra dice.


So which base critical hit rules do you prefer?  The old double the dice rules or the newer take the maximum damage? 
Rule & Faction Designer on Warlord 2nd Edition & Savage North Game Designer & Programmer for Embalmit Games
In the newest playtest package it's deal maximum damage, and then roll the weapon die on top of that.

So if for example you have a +1 strength modifier and are attacking with a longsword you normally deal 1d8 + 1 damage. On a critical hit you deal 1d8 + 9 damage.

This in my opinion is the ideal way to do it. You still roll, and you never deal less damage than a standard hit. I am open to also adding your modifier to the roll, effectively doubling the damage from it too.
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I personally think that the latest way of doing things (Max damage + Str mod + roll 1 extra die) is good. I'd only add that if you're using a 2h weapon THEN you get to add 2xstr mod instead of just once.

I think that the two weapon (TWF) damage output for classes that can get the feats (Dual Wielding + Two-Weapon Strike) easily outpaces 2h weapons (THF) as THF has no feats that boosts it's damage exclusively.
Since devs have decided to remove the old 3.x adage of 2h wpns getting 1.5x str mod instead of just str mod to damage, this could be one of those evening out factors.
I'm in the camp that likes the way crit damage is done in the current packet.
I want critical effects.  Not just damage.

Like if a cleric crits, he get's to heal.
Or if you crit with a flail, you knock someone prone.

I don't actually have many good ideas, but i'm sure they exsist.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I want critical effects.  Not just damage.

Like if a cleric crits, he get's to heal.
Or if you crit with a flail, you knock someone prone.

I don't actually have many good ideas, but i'm sure they exsist.



If I remember correctly a system like the one you'd like to see, was present in RoleMaster, when, with a crit, you have to check at least 6 different tables for flavoury effects...and the resolution of the hit took a good 30 minutes; a little slowing down during a fight in my opinion...personally I like the fast pacing of the fight in D&DN and the crit as it is ruled now is fine for me...at low levels you can shred your opponents to pieces, or made them a bloody pulp (depending on the PG's weapon of choice)....and at higher levels it is still a good hit...even if its not a deadly one....
You don't need a table.

Just each class get's a crit effect.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I like the idea of weapon types having associated crit effects.

 

Danny

I personally think that the latest way of doing things (Max damage + Str mod + roll 1 extra die) is good. I'd only add that if you're using a 2h weapon THEN you get to add 2xstr mod instead of just once. I think that the two weapon (TWF) damage output for classes that can get the feats (Dual Wielding + Two-Weapon Strike) easily outpaces 2h weapons (THF) as THF has no feats that boosts it's damage exclusively. Since devs have decided to remove the old 3.x adage of 2h wpns getting 1.5x str mod instead of just str mod to damage, this could be one of those evening out factors.



I know this isn't the purpose of the thread... but I wanted to voice my agreement about 2 handed weapons. Greatweapons need serious feat support, or the damage output of dual-weidling needs to be reigned in so that fighting with a 2 handed weapon is a serious option.

Oh and I like the current packets handling of crits. Although, I think an interesting way of handling crits and simultaneously stressing weapon choice would be to give weapons a different "crit die." So when you crit, you'd deal max damage using the regular weapon die and then roll the crit die on top of that. Then we can differentiate weapons by making some weapons better/worse when they crit.

For example, the greatsword and greataxe are both 1d12 weapons, with only a cosmetic difference. We could make them different by giving the greatsword 2d4 as a crit die and the greataxe 1d10. This represents the fact that crits with the greatsword are generally consistent, but that crits with the greataxe have a wider degree of variability.
(Note that I hate crit 'ranges' and don't want any weapons to be better at critting -- Just for them to do different things when they crit.) 
Max damage + roll is better than what I thought the rules were.  I would still prefer to roll multiple dice.  The take max damage and add a roll is just over complicating a simple straight forward critical system.  For the sake of simplicity I think the double the dice and double the modifer works better.  It's much easier to read and understand.  It also results in a similar amou
Rule & Faction Designer on Warlord 2nd Edition & Savage North Game Designer & Programmer for Embalmit Games
It looks like the post above was half eaten...  


Max damage + roll is better than what I thought the rules were.  I would still prefer to roll multiple dice.  The take max damage and add a roll is just over complicating a simple straight forward critical system.  For the sake of simplicity I think the double the dice and double the modifer works better.  It's much easier to read and understand.  It also results in a similar amount of damage, and results in more damage than a normal attack no matter what.

Base of 1d8+4
Current Crit System:  16 avg (13-20)
Double Crit System:  16 avg (10-24)

Base of 1d8+4+2d6 (pick your ability or magic weapon that grants the bonus)
Current Crit System:  28 avg (25-32)
Double Crit System:  28 avg (14-48)

Why wouldn't we want to use the simple to understand system?


I would support a Special crit effect if it was class based.  That would be another class feature that allows each one to shine in a different way.   
Rule & Faction Designer on Warlord 2nd Edition & Savage North Game Designer & Programmer for Embalmit Games
The catch to a class-based crit system is hat you have to present a few different options for each class, or you run the risk of unleashing hordes of screeching "You RUINED MY CHARACTER CONCEPT!" And no one wants that...

For what it's worth, the current crits work for me.

-Ghorrin
I like the way Crit currently work too. Max + roll sounds like a good compromise. 


Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I like the idea of weapon types having associated crit effects. 

Weapon based crits might work better.  Since spells can't crit anyways.

Crit with a hammer, and you push.
Crit with a flail, and you prone.
Crit with an arrow, and you slow by 10'.


Though, i'd prefer something a bit more... exciting then that.

The catch to a class-based crit system is hat you have to present a few different options for each class, or you run the risk of unleashing hordes of screeching "You RUINED MY CHARACTER CONCEPT!" And no one wants that... For what it's worth, the current crits work for me. -Ghorrin

I don't see how...

But i'm not against selecting a crit effect.  Perhaps you get one with your background.


I just want something other (or in addition to) "more damage".

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I think that, in the base game, crit should just be damage - and I'm happy with the damage range as it is, guaranteed a good deal + some random more. I also liked the old feel of picking up "all those dice!", but I'd rather do max damage + 1 die more than rolling 2 or 3 dice at once.

There could and will probably be published extensions/replacements of this system, with possibilities randing from just more damage over to bleeder effects at the end/pinnacle : Rolemaster-worthy crit tables with 36 gory descriptions per damage type (piercing, slashing, bludgeoning, fire, cold, ...) and possible effects (loose stat pts, limbs, ears, eyes and more).

I just don't think that the base system needs all that extra. It should be a choice, not something that's baseline.
The current critical system is simple and powerful enough for a core system. Developing a weapon-based system sounds like an excellent module add-on in the future. Have you consider damage-type-based critical instead?
while I like the system as presented in the latest playtest packet, I have seen someone suggest criticals doing Ability damage. 1d6 STR damage with slashing criticals, 1d6 CON damage with blugeon damage, etc...

Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of any failed saving throw, including but not limited to petrification, poison, death magic, dragon breath, spells, or vorpal sword-related decapitations.