Level 4 PCs Kill Dragon (Level 13)

Rather than poo post about how great AD&D is and how Gygax got it right we did actually test out some things from D&DN yesterday. Our group is using a weird hybrid rule of 1st and 2nd ed AD&D converted to d20 format via Myth and Magic a d20 2nd ed clone. After buying Gygax magazine for $5 this is where my gaming $$$ have been going lately. I thought I would like a more liberal game and use these strange new concepts such as skills, talents, d20, BAB and weapon specialization. All in an effort to be more inclusive of course.


D&DN monsters are tougher than AD&D monsters for the most part in terms of hit points, damage etc but have weaker defenses. I converted some D&DN monsters to AD&D rules but mostly just tweaking the numbers using AD&D defenses such as AC and things like magic resistance and required +X weapons to hit etc. attack numbers were flipped to BAB. In effect we powered up the D&DN monsters. After 30 odd years of more or less playing the same system one gets a rough idea where you can put the numbers to make it work.


Allowed books.


PHB AD&D 1st/2nd ed
DMG
MM
Tome of Magic
Spells and Magic spells (Cure moderate wounds, Cats grace etc)
Myth and Magic Players Guide


As I said we tried for a very liberal game using things I normally do not allow- for a high powered game.


The PCs.


1 Lvl 4 Mage
1 Lvl 4 Swashbuckler (Fighter/Thief)
1 Lvl 5 Cleric
1 Lvl 5 Fighter


4d6 drop the lowest were used for ability scores, cleric rolled exceptionally well and with racial scores and talents had 4 scores above 16 although note in M&M an 18 gives you +3 to hit/damage and +8 on skill/attribute checks. 16 is +2 hit/damage, 14+1 etc.


We were also running a rough conversion of Pathfinder Adventure Paths I borrowed off the kids who play that game, not my thing but very sexy APs. Anyway the PCs encountered the level 13 Green Dragon with buffed defenses from the D&DN playtest. For magic items they had nothing really that exceptional. Several +1 weapons although by the time they were done they had a +3 mace of smiting and a +1 flametongue short sword. We were not using builds as such but the fighter/thief was a dual wielding short sword specialist with the weapon finesse talent (dex to hit not damage), and the fighter was a long sword specialist using errataed long sword (1d10 vs large instead of 1d12 in AD&D).


Put simply the Dragon lasted 2 rounds vs AD&D characters with at best +1 weapons. The dual wielder had 5/2 attacks for 1d8+ modifiers, and the long sword user 3/2. Cleric used a +1 shillelagh war club for 2d8+3 damage and had 17 strength.


And there you have it. AD&D characters without "kewl powerz" defeating a buffed D&DN Dragon in 2 rounds via direct damage and no save or die or any other spell used except volleys of magic missiles (less damage than D&DN ones) and ye olde beat down as they caught the Dragon in its lair (50% chance).


D&DN the Pubbie Edition. Gygax was right, all hail AD&D. Looks like we'll be using AD&D monsters in the future or further buff the D&DN ones as they seem easy to convert and I do like things like the new undead better than the old energy drain wights, wraiths etc. The PCs were exploring a wilderness area and got more xp doing that than combat so they were mor or less at full strength.


Rather than poo post about how great AD&D is and how Gygax got it right we did actually test out some things from D&DN yesterday. Our group is using a weird hybrid rule of 1st and 2nd ed AD&D converted to d20 format via Myth and Magic a d20 2nd ed clone. After buying Gygax magazine for $5 this is where my gaming $$$ have been going lately. I thought I would like a more liberal game and use these strange new concepts such as skills, talents, d20, BAB and weapon specialization. All in an effort to be more inclusive of course.


D&DN monsters are tougher than AD&D monsters for the most part in terms of hit points, damage etc but have weaker defenses. I converted some D&DN monsters to AD&D rules but mostly just tweaking the numbers using AD&D defenses such as AC and things like magic resistance and required +X weapons to hit etc. attack numbers were flipped to BAB. In effect we powered up the D&DN monsters. After 30 odd years of more or less playing the same system one gets a rough idea where you can put the numbers to make it work.


Allowed books.


PHB AD&D 1st/2nd ed
DMG
MM
Tome of Magic
Spells and Magic spells (Cure moderate wounds, Cats grace etc)
Myth and Magic Players Guide


As I said we tried for a very liberal game using things I normally do not allow- for a high powered game.


The PCs.


1 Lvl 4 Mage
1 Lvl 4 Swashbuckler (Fighter/Thief)
1 Lvl 5 Cleric
1 Lvl 5 Fighter


4d6 drop the lowest were used for ability scores, cleric rolled exceptionally well and with racial scores and talents had 4 scores above 16 although note in M&M an 18 gives you +3 to hit/damage and +8 on skill/attribute checks. 16 is +2 hit/damage, 14+1 etc.


We were also running a rough conversion of Pathfinder Adventure Paths I borrowed off the kids who play that game, not my thing but very sexy APs. Anyway the PCs encountered the level 13 Green Dragon with buffed defenses from the D&DN playtest. For magic items they had nothing really that exceptional. Several +1 weapons although by the time they were done they had a +3 mace of smiting and a +1 flametongue short sword. We were not using builds as such but the fighter/thief was a dual wielding short sword specialist with the weapon finesse talent (dex to hit not damage), and the fighter was a long sword specialist using errataed long sword (1d10 vs large instead of 1d12 in AD&D).


Put simply the Dragon lasted 2 rounds vs AD&D characters with at best +1 weapons. The dual wielder had 5/2 attacks for 1d8+ modifiers, and the long sword user 3/2. Cleric used a +1 shillelagh war club for 2d8+3 damage and had 17 strength.


And there you have it. AD&D characters without "kewl powerz" defeating a buffed D&DN Dragon in 2 rounds via direct damage and no save or die or any other spell used except volleys of magic missiles (less damage than D&DN ones) and ye olde beat down as they caught the Dragon in its lair (50% chance).


D&DN the Pubbie Edition. Gygax was right, all hail AD&D. Looks like we'll be using AD&D monsters in the future or further buff the D&DN ones as they seem easy to convert and I do like things like the new undead better than the old energy drain wights, wraiths etc. The PCs were exploring a wilderness area and got more xp doing that than combat so they were mor or less at full strength.





so wait you played ad&d but used the DNDN monsters? and it didn't work out right?....

... trying to look for non Houserule-stacked-upon-Houserule.

5E mini- SRD available now in HTML here:  http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop/players-basic-rules

 

I actually think this is kind of a cool/interesting post, but my first thought was "So this is the tabletop RPG version of posting a combat log parse from a raid boss, huh?"
"Therefore, you are the crapper, I'm merely the vessel through which you crap." -- akaddk

Rather than poo post about how great AD&D is and how Gygax got it right we did actually test out some things from D&DN yesterday. Our group is using a weird hybrid rule of 1st and 2nd ed AD&D converted to d20 format via Myth and Magic a d20 2nd ed clone. After buying Gygax magazine for $5 this is where my gaming $$$ have been going lately. I thought I would like a more liberal game and use these strange new concepts such as skills, talents, d20, BAB and weapon specialization. All in an effort to be more inclusive of course.


D&DN monsters are tougher than AD&D monsters for the most part in terms of hit points, damage etc but have weaker defenses. I converted some D&DN monsters to AD&D rules but mostly just tweaking the numbers using AD&D defenses such as AC and things like magic resistance and required +X weapons to hit etc. attack numbers were flipped to BAB. In effect we powered up the D&DN monsters. After 30 odd years of more or less playing the same system one gets a rough idea where you can put the numbers to make it work.


Allowed books.


PHB AD&D 1st/2nd ed
DMG
MM
Tome of Magic
Spells and Magic spells (Cure moderate wounds, Cats grace etc)
Myth and Magic Players Guide


As I said we tried for a very liberal game using things I normally do not allow- for a high powered game.


The PCs.


1 Lvl 4 Mage
1 Lvl 4 Swashbuckler (Fighter/Thief)
1 Lvl 5 Cleric
1 Lvl 5 Fighter


4d6 drop the lowest were used for ability scores, cleric rolled exceptionally well and with racial scores and talents had 4 scores above 16 although note in M&M an 18 gives you +3 to hit/damage and +8 on skill/attribute checks. 16 is +2 hit/damage, 14+1 etc.


We were also running a rough conversion of Pathfinder Adventure Paths I borrowed off the kids who play that game, not my thing but very sexy APs. Anyway the PCs encountered the level 13 Green Dragon with buffed defenses from the D&DN playtest. For magic items they had nothing really that exceptional. Several +1 weapons although by the time they were done they had a +3 mace of smiting and a +1 flametongue short sword. We were not using builds as such but the fighter/thief was a dual wielding short sword specialist with the weapon finesse talent (dex to hit not damage), and the fighter was a long sword specialist using errataed long sword (1d10 vs large instead of 1d12 in AD&D).


Put simply the Dragon lasted 2 rounds vs AD&D characters with at best +1 weapons. The dual wielder had 5/2 attacks for 1d8+ modifiers, and the long sword user 3/2. Cleric used a +1 shillelagh war club for 2d8+3 damage and had 17 strength.


And there you have it. AD&D characters without "kewl powerz" defeating a buffed D&DN Dragon in 2 rounds via direct damage and no save or die or any other spell used except volleys of magic missiles (less damage than D&DN ones) and ye olde beat down as they caught the Dragon in its lair (50% chance).


D&DN the Pubbie Edition. Gygax was right, all hail AD&D. Looks like we'll be using AD&D monsters in the future or further buff the D&DN ones as they seem easy to convert and I do like things like the new undead better than the old energy drain wights, wraiths etc. The PCs were exploring a wilderness area and got more xp doing that than combat so they were mor or less at full strength.





so wait you played ad&d but used the DNDN monsters? and it didn't work out right?....



 Maybe but as I said D&DN monster are tougher than AD&D monsters except for defenses. Damage is also lower (no dex to hit and damage). I gave the Dragon AD&D defenses, buffed the AC and to hit, and my PCs deal something like 1d8+6 damage max (+1 weapon, specialization, 18 strength). 1d8/1d10 vs large creatures. 

Let me say something first: I am a fan of 1e and 2e. Now that is out of the way... apples and oranges. Basically so what on ur conversion. For 5e it is meaningless. If u were using 5e characters then fine. But u were not... therefore u proved only that u still seem to hate all that 5e stands for. Which is fine yet does not help the playtest at all.
Of everything you posted, the first four words are the most wrong. Here's what seems to be your line of "thought".

1) We rolled up characters using a mishmash of AD&D and M&M.
2) We did a PF adventure path, but plugged in  DDN monsters that had had their numbers adjusted around a bit to get them to a place where they should function well as AD&D monsters, which we believe ourselves to be capable of doing, given our extensive experience with the system.
3) We believed that maybe they would be close, since DDN monsters have lower defenses, but higher  HP and more offensive power.
4) The dragon died super fast. It was not a challenge.

But here's where you go completely off the rails.

5) We concluded that DDN is a "pubbie" edition with too-weak monsters.

What? That is literally not a valid conclusion to draw from your experience in any fashion. There are some valid conclusions that might be drawn, but that's not one of them.

Valid conclusions that might be drawn (not all at once) -

- AD&D characters are dramatically more powerful than DDN characters.
- You did an awful job converting the monster to AD&D stats; if you didn't, why did it die so fast? When you were messing with its numbers, why did you do such a bad job that you made something that died in two rounds? Wasn't the point of your number-fiddling that you have enough experience with the system to get it right? You clearly didn't.
- In the frankenstein system you've put together, a solo dragon isn't a sufficient challenge for a group of level 4-5 PCs.
- Maybe the players just got lucky.

Really, it's hard to conclude anything about DDN from your experience, since literally no DDN material was actually used - you used a PF adventure, AD&D/M&M characters, and a creature whose stats were (incompetantly, it seems) converted to AD&D-level stats. What part of that is DDN, exactly? All your post is is one very long way of publicly announcing that you don't understand what's allegedly your favorite edition nearly well enough to even get close when trying to convert monsters to it. If you want help converting monsters from one system to another, I'm sure people would be willing to do that, but it doesn't say a whole lot about DDN that you're awful at it.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
Here, let ME assign value A to this, B to that, adjudicate that C should probably be around 14.

Lol, the sum of A+B+C is too low, why didn't YOU fix that?
All I learned from this post is that you are not as good at DMing and creating houserules as you think you may be. 
Welcome to ZomboniLand - My D&D Blog http://zomboniland.blogspot.com/
not sure what this is doing on thr 5th editon forum.
Shoulden't this be in some hoebrew discusion forum, as it has nothing to do with the playtest ? 
i read this to my cat and even he was able to see why you had a bad time.

Happy to be back on the best D&D forum on the internet!

This proves one thing though:

AD&D and DDN are DIFFERENT

not much else  
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com
Now can you do one with 5e characters against a 5e dragon?
or
AD&D characters against a AD&D dragon?

 
OP, reading your post may have given me brain cancer.
While I respect where you are coming from on a lot of things,  I think it is useless to playtest using houserules.   

My Blog which includes my Hobby Award Winning articles.

Shouldn't this be in some hoebrew discusion forum, as it has nothing to do with the playtest ? 



You're assuming someone would pay for his "services" why? Tongue Out


#ifvelvetjoneswasagamedesigner

And there you have it. AD&D characters without "kewl powerz" defeating a buffed D&DN Dragon in 2 rounds via direct damage and no save or die or any other spell used except volleys of magic missiles (less damage than D&DN ones) and ye olde beat down as they caught the Dragon in its lair (50% chance).


D&DN the Pubbie Edition. Gygax was right, all hail AD&D. Looks like we'll be using AD&D monsters in the future or further buff the D&DN ones as they seem easy to convert and I do like things like the new undead better than the old energy drain wights, wraiths etc. The PCs were exploring a wilderness area and got more xp doing that than combat so they were mor or less at full strength.




Wait a minute... what? You're taking a D&DN dragon and plugging it into another edition entirely and drawing some conclusion about D&DN being imbalanced?

This is about as logical a conclusion as 2+2=5.

And there you have it. AD&D characters without "kewl powerz" defeating a buffed D&DN Dragon in 2 rounds via direct damage and no save or die or any other spell used except volleys of magic missiles (less damage than D&DN ones) and ye olde beat down as they caught the Dragon in its lair (50% chance).


D&DN the Pubbie Edition. Gygax was right, all hail AD&D. Looks like we'll be using AD&D monsters in the future or further buff the D&DN ones as they seem easy to convert and I do like things like the new undead better than the old energy drain wights, wraiths etc. The PCs were exploring a wilderness area and got more xp doing that than combat so they were mor or less at full strength.




Wait a minute... what? You're taking a D&DN dragon and plugging it into another edition entirely and drawing some conclusion about D&DN being imbalanced?

This is about as logical a conclusion as 2+2=5.

It's actually even dumber than that - he's taking a D&DN dragon, messing around with its numbers and abilities, plugging it into another edition entirely and drawing some conclusion about D&DN being imbalanced. There's literally zero D&DN content anywhere in the experience.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
I think it is useless to playtest using houserules.   

Look at this, Emerikol and I are in complete agreement on something.  



 

 

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I think it is useless to playtest using houserules.   

Look at this, Emerikol and I are in complete agreement on something.  



Yeah I've agreed once with casual, once with seerow, and once with you today.  

Next thing you know cats and dogs will be living together.

My Blog which includes my Hobby Award Winning articles.


Wait a minute... what? You're taking a D&DN dragon and plugging it into another edition entirely and drawing some conclusion about D&DN being imbalanced?

This is about as logical a conclusion as 2+2=5.



His name is AllHailLordGygax, that should sums it up. 

If you stick a 3.5e Balor into 5e, he is going to destroy us.
Stick the 3.5e Balor in 4e and the 4e party is going to curb stomp him hard.  

Never stick monsters from another edition to another edition.
That like trying to play a Xbox game on a PS3, just not going to work.  
So you did it all wrong, didn't follow anything resembling the rules or common sense, intentionally setting up the results you wanted to bias your 'experiment' ... and it came out all screwed up in such a way as to support your preconceptions.

IMAGE(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa279/LolaBonne/Forum%20Pics/Youdontsay-1.png)
This is the best thread.  Everyone has been united, regardless of edition preference.  WotC should take notes.
So, the OPs point is what - The dragon lasted twice as long as it would have against D&DNext players?


Carl
You guys realize "gygax" is just Zardnaar's fake account.
You guys realize "gygax" is just Zardnaar's fake account. He got temp banned so he made a fake account to come on and edition war with.


Proof ?
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com
I agree that AHLG sounds like a troll sometimes (often in fact... I have been wondering if he's real for a bit) , but he's not even arguing close to the positions Zard used to have. 
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com
You guys realize "gygax" is just Zardnaar's fake account. He got temp banned so he made a fake account to come on and edition war with.


Proof ?



Every other post says something Zardnaar said, right down to the playtest with the dragon, the mismatched game with Myth and Magic, the same misspellings, hell, even the suggestions for the game. Unless you really think that there is another human being that is using Myth and Magic with AD&D monsters using the same exact terminology with misspellings, appearing on the forums the same day his other account was banned. I cannot track IPs, but I would bet money Gygax's IP goes to New Zealand. If anyone knows how to do that.
You guys realize "gygax" is just Zardnaar's fake account. He got temp banned so he made a fake account to come on and edition war with.


Proof ?



Every other post says something Zardnaar said, right down to the playtest with the dragon, the mismatched game with Myth and Magic, the same misspellings, hell, even the suggestions for the game. Unless you really think that there is another human being that is using Myth and Magic with AD&D monsters using the same exact terminology with misspellings, appearing on the forums the same day his other account was banned. I cannot track IPs, but I would bet money Gygax's IP goes to New Zealand. If anyone knows how to do that.


Allright  
it's circumstantial evidence, but there's a whole lot of it
( You can use myth and magic with AD&D monsters though, they're fully compatible)
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com
You guys realize "gygax" is just Zardnaar's fake account. He got temp banned so he made a fake account to come on and edition war with.


Proof ?



Every other post says something Zardnaar said, right down to the playtest with the dragon, the mismatched game with Myth and Magic, the same misspellings, hell, even the suggestions for the game. Unless you really think that there is another human being that is using Myth and Magic with AD&D monsters using the same exact terminology with misspellings, appearing on the forums the same day his other account was banned. I cannot track IPs, but I would bet money Gygax's IP goes to New Zealand. If anyone knows how to do that.



You know, that does make a lot of sense.  Once a green warty regenerator ...
Zardnaar seemed nicer, though.

 

 

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Zardnaar seemed nicer, though.


Everything's relative.
If it is Zard, I think he's playing a character to some degree. AHLG is much more single-minded than Zard was. Also, it could be an illusion, but he seems marginally more literate.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
If it is Zard, I think he's playing a character to some degree. AHLG is much more single-minded than Zard was. Also, it could be an illusion, but he seems marginally more literate.

Heh.  Yeah, imagine a roleplayer pretending to be someone else on-line...

 

 

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I miss Zard...

Nah... All Hail is too succinct.
I he were Zardnaar we'd be on the 7th topic page... and still reading the opening post.

Cool


Zard's wall o' texts were quite interesting to read though. 
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